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Zanima me koliko ih još ovako razmišlja u "međunarodnoj zajednici"?
Direktor Centra "Simon Vizental" Efraim Zurof izjavio je da masakr muslimana u Srebrenici 1995. godine nije bio genocid.
Zurof je upozorio da treba biti oprezan kada se koristi termin genocid i dodao kako ne negira ubistva muslimana u Srebrenici.
"Ne poričem da su srpske snage ubile muslimane u Srebrenici, što nije smelo da se desi i ti ljudi treba da budu izvedeni pred sud, ali u Srebrenici se nije dogodio genocid. Ako su srpske snage pustile žene i decu da odu, to nije genocid. Sve je to politika, rekao je Zurof za Sputnik.
Ako mu je glavni argument to što su pustili žene i djecu, onda hajmo pobiti sve muškarce na svijetu,to neće ugroziti opstanak ljudske vrste
A i nije tačno da su pustili djecu,jer dječak od 16 godina nije muškarac nego dijete
ima razlicitih definicija.
po nekima jeste, po nekima nije.
neke iskljucivo govore o ubijanju a neke govore o unistenju postojanja na odredjenom teritoriju sto podrazumjeva ubistva, protjerivanja, psihicka i fizicka mucenja.....
A sta supak kaze za Zepu, Visegrad, Focu, Rudo, itd itd? Mozel mi ovaj ekpert Zurof reci sta da mislim o ostalim pokusajima genocida, jer nemam svoj mozak da formiram vlastito misljenje?
evo ovo je definicija po rimskom statutu odnosno statutu ICC-a, suda koji sudi ovim nasim lolama. Po njemu je jasno da je genocid vjerovatno i u drugim mjestima tipa prijedora i gradova istocne bosne:
Article 6 of the Rome Statute provides that "genocide" means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Kitrona wrote:Zanima me koliko ih još ovako razmišlja u "međunarodnoj zajednici"?
Direktor Centra "Simon Vizental" Efraim Zurof izjavio je da masakr muslimana u Srebrenici 1995. godine nije bio genocid.
Zurof je upozorio da treba biti oprezan kada se koristi termin genocid i dodao kako ne negira ubistva muslimana u Srebrenici.
"Ne poričem da su srpske snage ubile muslimane u Srebrenici, što nije smelo da se desi i ti ljudi treba da budu izvedeni pred sud, ali u Srebrenici se nije dogodio genocid. Ako su srpske snage pustile žene i decu da odu, to nije genocid. Sve je to politika, rekao je Zurof za Sputnik.
Ni ISIL nije pokusao da napravi genocid na Jezidima u Iraku jer zene nije ubijao nego ih uzimao za robinje.
Valjda cojek hoce da samo jevreji imaju certifikat i odredjuju normativno sta je genocid a sta nije.
Koliko znam da je poslije 2 sv. rata umanjen kriterij za genocidnu namjeru ,ako grijesim neka me neko ispravi.
Kitrona wrote:Zanima me koliko ih još ovako razmišlja u "međunarodnoj zajednici"?
Direktor Centra "Simon Vizental" Efraim Zurof izjavio je da masakr muslimana u Srebrenici 1995. godine nije bio genocid.
Zurof je upozorio da treba biti oprezan kada se koristi termin genocid i dodao kako ne negira ubistva muslimana u Srebrenici.
"Ne poričem da su srpske snage ubile muslimane u Srebrenici, što nije smelo da se desi i ti ljudi treba da budu izvedeni pred sud, ali u Srebrenici se nije dogodio genocid. Ako su srpske snage pustile žene i decu da odu, to nije genocid. Sve je to politika, rekao je Zurof za Sputnik.
Ni ISIL nije pokusao da napravi genocid na Jezidima u Iraku jer zene nije ubijao nego ih uzimao za robinje.
Valjda cojek hoce da samo jevreji imaju certifikat i odredjuju normativno sta je genocid a sta nije.
Koliko znam da je poslije 2 sv. rata prosiren kriterij za genocidnu namjeru ,ako grijesim neka me neko ispravi.
Najgore je ulaziti u raspravu je li ili nije, ili hladno pozoveš na poštivanje presuda ili opsuješ mater onom ko negira. Prihvatljivo i ljudski je i jedno i drugo.
Najgore je ulaziti u raspravu je li ili nije, ili hladno pozoveš na poštivanje presuda ili opsuješ mater onom ko negira. Prihvatljivo i ljudski je i jedno i drugo.
Ma znam ali eto on sebi uzeo pravo da odredjuje jel ili nije gonocid.
Covjeku krivo sto su navijaci gazili izrahellsku zastavu ili sta je vec ali svakako degutantno od njega i onih koji su masovno iskoristili i napravili brand od zlocina kojeg politiziraju do granica humanosti i svakodnevno zloupotrebljavaju i sto citav svijet vidi i osudjuje.
Odlican tekst, po kojem svako moze zakljuciti sta se desilo u Srebrenici i generalno u BiH.
* SPOILER ALERT * Prema ovom dokumentu, genocid je pocinjen sirom BiH, a ne samo u Srebrenici.
The 8 Stages of Genocide
The International Convention for the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide
defines "genocide."
"In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to
destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical
destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
Acts of genocide
During the Rwandan genocide, the U.S. State Department’s lawyers infamously directed U.S.
diplomats to avoid use of the word genocide. Only “acts of genocide” were being committed,
they said. It was a distinction without a difference.
The crime of genocide is defined by the Genocide Convention as "acts of genocide." It does not
exist apart from those acts. A pattern of acts of genocide is frequently called "genocide" and
evidence of such a pattern of ethnic, racial, or religious massacres is strong evidence of
genocidal intent.
The Convention declares the following acts punishable:
"(a) Genocide;
(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
(d) Attempt to commit genocide;
(e) Complicity in genocide."
The Genocide Convention is sometimes misinterpreted as requiring the intent to destroy in
whole a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Some genocides have fit that description,
notably the Holocaust and Rwanda. But most do not. Most are intended to destroy only part of a
group. The Genocide Convention specifically includes the intentional killing of part of a group
as genocide. It reaffirms this definition when it includes as among the acts that constitute
genocide "deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its
physical destruction in whole or in part'. Those who shrink from applying the term "genocide"
usually ignore the "in part".
Intent
Intent can be directly proven from statements or orders by the perpetrators. But more often, it
must be deduced from the systematic pattern of their acts, a pattern that could only arise out of
specific intent.
Criminal law distinguishes intent from motive. A murderer may have many motives -- gaining
property or eliminating a rival for power. But his intent is determined by the purpose of his act:
Did he purposely kill the victim? Genocidal intent is determined by the specific purpose of the
act: Did the killer purposely kill the victim as part of a plan to destroy a national, ethnic, racial,
or religious group, at least in part?
The motive of the killer to take the victim's property or to politically dominate the victim's group
does not remove genocidal intent if the victim is chosen because of his ethnic, national, racial, or
religious group.
A plan for genocide doesn’t need to be written out. An act of genocide may arise in a culture that
considers members of another group less than human, where killing members of that group is not
considered murder. This is the culture of impunity characteristic of genocidal societies. In
Burundi, Tutsis who kill Hutus have seldom been convicted or even arrested. Massacres are
ethnic, intended to destroy parts of the other ethnic group.
Leo Kuper calls such mass killings genocidal massacres. They are acts of genocide even if only
a part of a group (the intellectuals, officers, leaders) is targeted.
THE GENOCIDAL PROCESS
Prevention of genocide requires a structural understanding of the genocidal process. Genocide
has eight stages or operational processes. The first stages precede later stages, but continue to
operate throughout the genocidal process. Each stage reinforces the others. A strategy to prevent
genocide should attack each stage, each process. The eight stages of genocide are classification,
symbolization, dehumanization, organization, polarization, preparation, extermination, and
denial.
1. Classification
All languages and cultures require classification - division of the natural and social world into
categories. We distinguish and classify objects and people. All cultures have categories to
distinguish between “us” and “them,” between members of our group and others. We treat
different categories of people differently. Racial and ethnic classifications may be defined by
absurdly detailed laws -- the Nazi Nuremberg laws, the "one drop" laws of segregation in
America, or apartheid racial classification laws in South Africa. Racist societies often prohibit
mixed categories and outlaw miscegenation. Bipolar societies are the most likely to have
genocide. In Rwanda and Burundi, children are the ethnicity of their father, either Tutsi or Hutu.
No one is mixed. Mixed marriages do not result in mixed children.
2. Symbolization
We use symbols to name and signify our classifications. We name some people Hutu and others
Tutsi, or Jewish or Gypsy, or Christian or Muslim. Sometimes physical characteristics - skin
color or nose shape - become symbols for classifications. Other symbols, like customary dress or
facial scars, are socially imposed by groups on their own members. After the process has reached
later stages (dehumanization, organization, and polarization) genocidal governments in the
preparation stage often require members of a targeted group to wear an identifying symbol or
distinctive clothing -- e.g. the yellow star. The Khmer Rouge forced people from the Eastern
Zone to wear a blue-checked scarf, marking them for forced relocation and elimination.
3. Dehumanization
Classification and symbolization are fundamental operations in all cultures. They become steps
of genocide only when combined with dehumanization. Denial of the humanity of others is the
step that permits killing with impunity. The universal human abhorrence of murder of members
of one's own group is overcome by treating the victims as less than human. In incitements to
genocide the target groups are called disgusting animal names - Nazi propaganda called Jews
"rats" or "vermin"; Rwandan Hutu hate radio referred to Tutsis as "cockroaches." The targeted
group is often likened to a “disease”, “microbes”, “infections” or a “cancer” in the body politic.
Bodies of genocide victims are often mutilated to express this denial of humanity. Such atrocities
then become the justification for revenge killings, because they are evidence that the killers must
be monsters, not human beings themselves.
4. Organization
Genocide is always collective because it derives its impetus from group identification. It is
always organized, often by states but also by militias and hate groups. Planning need not be
elaborate: Hindu mobs may hunt down Sikhs or Muslims, led by local leaders. Methods of
killing need not be complex: Tutsis in Rwanda died from machetes; Muslim Chams in
Cambodia from hoe-blades to the back of the neck ("Bullets must not be wasted," was the rule at
Cambodian extermination prisons, expressing the dehumanization of the victims.) The social
organization of genocide varies by culture. It reached its most mechanized, bureaucratic form in
the Nazi death camps. But it is always organized, whether by the Nazi SS or the Rwandan
Interahamwe. Death squads may be trained for mass murder, as in Rwanda, and then force
everyone to participate, spreading hysteria and overcoming individual resistance. Terrorist
groups will pose one of the greatest threats of genocidal mass murder in the future as they gain
access to chemical, biological, and even nuclear weapons.
5. Polarization
Genocide proceeds in a downward cycle of killings until, like a whirlpool, it reaches the vortex
of mass murder. Killings by one group may provoke revenge killings by the other. Such
massacres are aimed at polarization, the systematic elimination of moderates who would slow the
cycle. The first to be killed in a genocide are moderates from the killing group who oppose the
extremists: the Hutu Supreme Court Chief Justice and Prime Minister in Rwanda, the Tutsi
Archbishop in Burundi. Extremists target moderate leaders and their families. The center cannot
hold. The most extreme take over, polarizing the conflict until negotiated settlement is
impossible.
6. Preparation
Preparation for genocide includes identification. Lists of victims are drawn up. Houses are
marked. Maps are made. Individuals are forced to carry ID cards identifying their ethnic or
religious group. Identification greatly speeds the slaughter. In Germany, the identification of
Jews, defined by law, was performed by a methodical bureaucracy. In Rwanda, identity cards
showed each person's ethnicity. In the genocide, Tutsis could then be easily pulled from cars at
roadblocks and murdered. Throwing away the cards did not help, because anyone who could not
prove he was Hutu, was presumed to be Tutsi. Hutu militiamen conducted crude mouth exams to
test claims of Hutu identity.
Preparation also includes expropriation of the property of the victims. It may include
concentration: herding of the victims into ghettos, stadiums, or churches. In its most extreme
form, it even includes construction of extermination camps, as in Nazi-ruled Europe, or
conversion of existing buildings – temples and schools – into extermination centers in
Cambodia. Transportation of the victims to these killing centers is then organized and
bureaucratized.
7. Extermination
The seventh step, the final solution, is extermination. It is considered extermination, rather than
murder, because the victims are not considered human. They are vermin, rats or cockroaches.
Killing is described by euphemisms of purification: “ethnic cleansing” in Bosnia, “ratonade” (rat
extermination) in Algeria. Targeted members of alien groups are killed, often including children.
Because they are not considered persons, their bodies are mutilated, buried in mass graves or
burnt like garbage.
8. Denial
Every genocide is followed by denial. The mass graves are dug up and hidden. The historical
records are burned, or closed to historians. Even during the genocide, those committing the
crimes dismiss reports as propaganda. Afterwards such deniers are called “revisionists.” Others
deny through more subtle means: by characterizing the reports as “unconfirmed” or “alleged”
because they do not come from officially approved sources; by minimizing the number killed; by
quarreling about whether the killing fits the legal definition of genocide (“definitionalism”); by
claiming that the deaths of the perpetrating group exceeded that of the victim group, or that the
deaths were the result of civil war, not genocide. In fact, civil war and genocide are not mutually
exclusive. Most genocides occur during wars.
U prosincu 2005., sud u Haagu pravomoćnom presudom utvrdio je da je ta kampanja bila čin genocida.[3] To je zasad jedini genocid u povijesti izvršen kemijskim oružjem. Broj ubijenih je neutvrđen, no brojke sežu od najmanje 50.000[4][5][2] do najviše 200.000 žrtava.[6]
Ne odredjuje on srecom nista, samo ima kontroverzno misljenje, imas takvih i kod nas po pitanju genocida nad armenima...naravno, takvi ne predstavljaju nasu zajednicu, isto kao ovaj medjunarodnu.
Last edited by saja_dj on 14/07/2015 23:27, edited 1 time in total.
DrugaGimnazija wrote:Odlican tekst, po kojem svako moze zakljuciti sta se desilo u Srebrenici i generalno u BiH.
* SPOILER ALERT * Prema ovom dokumentu, genocid je pocinjen sirom BiH, a ne samo u Srebrenici.
The 8 Stages of Genocide
The International Convention for the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide
defines "genocide."
"In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to
destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical
destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
Acts of genocide
During the Rwandan genocide, the U.S. State Department’s lawyers infamously directed U.S.
diplomats to avoid use of the word genocide. Only “acts of genocide” were being committed,
they said. It was a distinction without a difference.
The crime of genocide is defined by the Genocide Convention as "acts of genocide." It does not
exist apart from those acts. A pattern of acts of genocide is frequently called "genocide" and
evidence of such a pattern of ethnic, racial, or religious massacres is strong evidence of
genocidal intent.
The Convention declares the following acts punishable:
"(a) Genocide;
(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
(d) Attempt to commit genocide;
(e) Complicity in genocide."
The Genocide Convention is sometimes misinterpreted as requiring the intent to destroy in
whole a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Some genocides have fit that description,
notably the Holocaust and Rwanda. But most do not. Most are intended to destroy only part of a
group. The Genocide Convention specifically includes the intentional killing of part of a group
as genocide. It reaffirms this definition when it includes as among the acts that constitute
genocide "deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its
physical destruction in whole or in part'. Those who shrink from applying the term "genocide"
usually ignore the "in part".
Intent
Intent can be directly proven from statements or orders by the perpetrators. But more often, it
must be deduced from the systematic pattern of their acts, a pattern that could only arise out of
specific intent.
Criminal law distinguishes intent from motive. A murderer may have many motives -- gaining
property or eliminating a rival for power. But his intent is determined by the purpose of his act:
Did he purposely kill the victim? Genocidal intent is determined by the specific purpose of the
act: Did the killer purposely kill the victim as part of a plan to destroy a national, ethnic, racial,
or religious group, at least in part?
The motive of the killer to take the victim's property or to politically dominate the victim's group
does not remove genocidal intent if the victim is chosen because of his ethnic, national, racial, or
religious group.
A plan for genocide doesn’t need to be written out. An act of genocide may arise in a culture that
considers members of another group less than human, where killing members of that group is not
considered murder. This is the culture of impunity characteristic of genocidal societies. In
Burundi, Tutsis who kill Hutus have seldom been convicted or even arrested. Massacres are
ethnic, intended to destroy parts of the other ethnic group.
Leo Kuper calls such mass killings genocidal massacres. They are acts of genocide even if only
a part of a group (the intellectuals, officers, leaders) is targeted.
THE GENOCIDAL PROCESS
Prevention of genocide requires a structural understanding of the genocidal process. Genocide
has eight stages or operational processes. The first stages precede later stages, but continue to
operate throughout the genocidal process. Each stage reinforces the others. A strategy to prevent
genocide should attack each stage, each process. The eight stages of genocide are classification,
symbolization, dehumanization, organization, polarization, preparation, extermination, and
denial.
1. Classification
All languages and cultures require classification - division of the natural and social world into
categories. We distinguish and classify objects and people. All cultures have categories to
distinguish between “us” and “them,” between members of our group and others. We treat
different categories of people differently. Racial and ethnic classifications may be defined by
absurdly detailed laws -- the Nazi Nuremberg laws, the "one drop" laws of segregation in
America, or apartheid racial classification laws in South Africa. Racist societies often prohibit
mixed categories and outlaw miscegenation. Bipolar societies are the most likely to have
genocide. In Rwanda and Burundi, children are the ethnicity of their father, either Tutsi or Hutu.
No one is mixed. Mixed marriages do not result in mixed children.
2. Symbolization
We use symbols to name and signify our classifications. We name some people Hutu and others
Tutsi, or Jewish or Gypsy, or Christian or Muslim. Sometimes physical characteristics - skin
color or nose shape - become symbols for classifications. Other symbols, like customary dress or
facial scars, are socially imposed by groups on their own members. After the process has reached
later stages (dehumanization, organization, and polarization) genocidal governments in the
preparation stage often require members of a targeted group to wear an identifying symbol or
distinctive clothing -- e.g. the yellow star. The Khmer Rouge forced people from the Eastern
Zone to wear a blue-checked scarf, marking them for forced relocation and elimination.
3. Dehumanization
Classification and symbolization are fundamental operations in all cultures. They become steps
of genocide only when combined with dehumanization. Denial of the humanity of others is the
step that permits killing with impunity. The universal human abhorrence of murder of members
of one's own group is overcome by treating the victims as less than human. In incitements to
genocide the target groups are called disgusting animal names - Nazi propaganda called Jews
"rats" or "vermin"; Rwandan Hutu hate radio referred to Tutsis as "cockroaches." The targeted
group is often likened to a “disease”, “microbes”, “infections” or a “cancer” in the body politic.
Bodies of genocide victims are often mutilated to express this denial of humanity. Such atrocities
then become the justification for revenge killings, because they are evidence that the killers must
be monsters, not human beings themselves.
4. Organization
Genocide is always collective because it derives its impetus from group identification. It is
always organized, often by states but also by militias and hate groups. Planning need not be
elaborate: Hindu mobs may hunt down Sikhs or Muslims, led by local leaders. Methods of
killing need not be complex: Tutsis in Rwanda died from machetes; Muslim Chams in
Cambodia from hoe-blades to the back of the neck ("Bullets must not be wasted," was the rule at
Cambodian extermination prisons, expressing the dehumanization of the victims.) The social
organization of genocide varies by culture. It reached its most mechanized, bureaucratic form in
the Nazi death camps. But it is always organized, whether by the Nazi SS or the Rwandan
Interahamwe. Death squads may be trained for mass murder, as in Rwanda, and then force
everyone to participate, spreading hysteria and overcoming individual resistance. Terrorist
groups will pose one of the greatest threats of genocidal mass murder in the future as they gain
access to chemical, biological, and even nuclear weapons.
5. Polarization
Genocide proceeds in a downward cycle of killings until, like a whirlpool, it reaches the vortex
of mass murder. Killings by one group may provoke revenge killings by the other. Such
massacres are aimed at polarization, the systematic elimination of moderates who would slow the
cycle. The first to be killed in a genocide are moderates from the killing group who oppose the
extremists: the Hutu Supreme Court Chief Justice and Prime Minister in Rwanda, the Tutsi
Archbishop in Burundi. Extremists target moderate leaders and their families. The center cannot
hold. The most extreme take over, polarizing the conflict until negotiated settlement is
impossible.
6. Preparation
Preparation for genocide includes identification. Lists of victims are drawn up. Houses are
marked. Maps are made. Individuals are forced to carry ID cards identifying their ethnic or
religious group. Identification greatly speeds the slaughter. In Germany, the identification of
Jews, defined by law, was performed by a methodical bureaucracy. In Rwanda, identity cards
showed each person's ethnicity. In the genocide, Tutsis could then be easily pulled from cars at
roadblocks and murdered. Throwing away the cards did not help, because anyone who could not
prove he was Hutu, was presumed to be Tutsi. Hutu militiamen conducted crude mouth exams to
test claims of Hutu identity.
Preparation also includes expropriation of the property of the victims. It may include
concentration: herding of the victims into ghettos, stadiums, or churches. In its most extreme
form, it even includes construction of extermination camps, as in Nazi-ruled Europe, or
conversion of existing buildings – temples and schools – into extermination centers in
Cambodia. Transportation of the victims to these killing centers is then organized and
bureaucratized.
7. Extermination
The seventh step, the final solution, is extermination. It is considered extermination, rather than
murder, because the victims are not considered human. They are vermin, rats or cockroaches.
Killing is described by euphemisms of purification: “ethnic cleansing” in Bosnia, “ratonade” (rat
extermination) in Algeria. Targeted members of alien groups are killed, often including children.
Because they are not considered persons, their bodies are mutilated, buried in mass graves or
burnt like garbage.
8. Denial
Every genocide is followed by denial. The mass graves are dug up and hidden. The historical
records are burned, or closed to historians. Even during the genocide, those committing the
crimes dismiss reports as propaganda. Afterwards such deniers are called “revisionists.” Others
deny through more subtle means: by characterizing the reports as “unconfirmed” or “alleged”
because they do not come from officially approved sources; by minimizing the number killed; by
quarreling about whether the killing fits the legal definition of genocide (“definitionalism”); by
claiming that the deaths of the perpetrating group exceeded that of the victim group, or that the
deaths were the result of civil war, not genocide. In fact, civil war and genocide are not mutually
exclusive. Most genocides occur during wars.
Znaci ne moraju nuzno biti zene i djeca ubijani da bi se kvalificiralo kao genocid.
Po ovim gore kriterijima ima jos mnogo mjesta u BIH gdje se moze dokazati genocidna namjera a ne samo u Srebrenici.
Sta onda ona hulja pise i negira ?
saja_dj wrote:Ne odredjuje on srecom nista, samo ima kontroverzno misljenje, imas takvih i kod nas po pitanju genocida nad armenima...naravno, takvi ne predstavljaju nasu zajednicu, isto kao ovaj medjunarodnu.
Upravo tako!
I kod nas ima Zurofa koliko hoces, koji turkofilije radi negiraju jedan od najstrasnijih genocida ikada - genocid nad Armenima.
I ovaj Zurof ima neke skrivene motive. Vidim da je pocasni gradjanin Novog Sada.
mirsek wrote:
Znaci ne moraju nuzno biti zene i djeca ubijani da bi se kvalificiralo kao genocid.
Po ovim gore kriterijima ima jos mnogo mjesta u BIH gdje se moze dokazati genocidna namjera a ne samo u Srebrenici.
Sta onda ona hulja pise i negira ?
Fino pise "They are acts of genocide even if only a part of a group (the intellectuals, officers, leaders) is targeted". Dakle, genocid je definitivno i kad ubijas "samo" muskarce i djecake.
Genocid u BiH se odvijao "po knjizi". Kao da su prepisivali odavde:
1. Classification All cultures have categories to distinguish between “us” and “them,” between members of our group and others. We treat different categories of people differently.
2. Symbolization
We name some people Hutu and others Tutsi, or Jewish or Gypsy, or Christian or Muslim. Sometimes physical characteristics - skin color or nose shape - become symbols for classifications.
After the process has reached later stages (dehumanization, organization, and polarization) genocidal governments in the preparation stage often require members of a targeted group to wear an identifying symbol or distinctive clothing -- e.g. the yellow star.
3. Dehumanization
Denial of the humanity of others is the step that permits killing with impunity. Bodies of genocide victims are often mutilated to express this denial of humanity.
4. Organization
Planning need not be elaborate: Hindu mobs may hunt down Sikhs or Muslims, led by local leaders. Methods of killing need not be complex: Tutsis in Rwanda died from machetes; Muslim Chams in Cambodia from hoe-blades to the back of the neck ("Bullets must not be wasted," was the rule at Cambodian extermination prisons, expressing the dehumanization of the victims.)
5. Polarization
Genocide proceeds in a downward cycle of killings until, like a whirlpool, it reaches the vortex of mass murder. Extremists target moderate leaders and their families. The most extreme take over, polarizing the conflict until negotiated settlement is impossible.
6. Preparation
Preparation for genocide includes identification. Lists of victims are drawn up. Houses are marked. Maps are made.
Preparation also includes expropriation of the property of the victims. It may include concentration: herding of the victims into ghettos, stadiums, or churches.
7. Extermination
The seventh step, the final solution, is extermination. It is considered extermination, rather than murder, because the victims are not considered human. Killing is described by euphemisms of purification: “ethnic cleansing” in Bosnia, “ratonade” (rat
extermination) in Algeria. Targeted members of alien groups are killed, often including children. Because they are not considered persons, their bodies are mutilated, buried in mass graves or burnt like garbage.
8. Denial
Every genocide is followed by denial. The mass graves are dug up and hidden. The historical records are burned, or closed to historians. Even during the genocide, those committing the crimes dismiss reports as propaganda. Afterwards such deniers are called “revisionists.” Others deny through more subtle means: by characterizing the reports as “unconfirmed” or “alleged” because they do not come from officially approved sources; by minimizing the number killed; by quarreling about whether the killing fits the legal definition of genocide (“definitionalism”); by claiming that the deaths of the perpetrating group exceeded that of the victim group, or that the deaths were the result of civil war, not genocide. In fact, civil war and genocide are not mutually exclusive. Most genocides occur during wars.
Pogotovo su sad aktivni u ovoj osmoj fazi genocida. Koriste sve ove gore nabrojane strategije.
negiranje je zadnja faza.da li je i to učestvovanje u genocidu i da li je kažnjivo?
koja je kazna za genocid inače ili se samo evidentira da je počinjen?
saja_dj wrote:Ne odredjuje on srecom nista, samo ima kontroverzno misljenje, imas takvih i kod nas po pitanju genocida nad armenima...naravno, takvi ne predstavljaju nasu zajednicu, isto kao ovaj medjunarodnu.
Upravo tako!
I kod nas ima Zurofa koliko hoces, koji turkofilije radi negiraju jedan od najstrasnijih genocida ikada - genocid nad Armenima.
I ovaj Zurof ima neke skrivene motive. Vidim da je pocasni gradjanin Novog Sada.
Covjek je najgora zivotinja.
Niko na onoj raspravi nije negirao i govorio da nije bilo genocida nad Armenima, samo su forumaši iznosili činjenice da niti jedan sud nije donio takvu odluku. Što naravno ne znači da nije bilo genocida. Najveći problem je što sami Armenci odbijaju Turske prijedloge za radnom grupom koja bi ispitala sve i utvrdila opseg tog genocida. (izvinjavam se na off-u)
Mislim da nije bitno da li neko smatra da je bio ili ne - Sud je utvrdio da je bio genocid u Srebrenici i svi koji negiraju su životinje one najbezočnije vrste.
jastuk1 wrote:
Niko na onoj raspravi nije negirao i govorio da nije bilo genocida nad Armenima, samo su forumaši iznosili činjenice da niti jedan sud nije donio takvu odluku. Što naravno ne znači da nije bilo genocoda. Najveći problem je što sami Armenci odbijaju Turske prijedloge za radnom grupom koja bi ispitala sve i utvrdila opseg tog genocida. (izvinjavam se na off-u)
Mislim da nije bitno da li neko smatra da je bio ili ne - Sud je utvrdio da je bio genocid u Srebrenici i svi koji negiraju su životinje one najbezočnije vrste.
Negiralo se itekako, cak su se i opravdanja pronalazila... Kao, aj ti malo prouci sta su njima Armeni radili itd.
Sta ti ima sud govoriti kada je potpuno jasno da su ubijene desetine hiljada civila, da je sistematski unisten jedan narod... Genocid da ne moze biti gori.
I onda se neko cudi negatorima genocida iz Rusije i Izraela. Negatora ima svugdje, kao i onih sto u svakoj prilici drze stranu svome coporu.
jastuk1 wrote:
Niko na onoj raspravi nije negirao i govorio da nije bilo genocida nad Armenima, samo su forumaši iznosili činjenice da niti jedan sud nije donio takvu odluku. Što naravno ne znači da nije bilo genocoda. Najveći problem je što sami Armenci odbijaju Turske prijedloge za radnom grupom koja bi ispitala sve i utvrdila opseg tog genocida. (izvinjavam se na off-u)
Mislim da nije bitno da li neko smatra da je bio ili ne - Sud je utvrdio da je bio genocid u Srebrenici i svi koji negiraju su životinje one najbezočnije vrste.
Negiralo se itekako, cak su se i opravdanja pronalazila... Kao, aj ti malo prouci sta su njima Armeni radili itd.
Sta ti ima sud govoriti kada je potpuno jasno da su ubijene desetine hiljada civila, da je sistematski unisten jedan narod... Genocid da ne moze biti gori.
I onda se neko cudi negatorima genocida iz Rusije i Izraela. Negatora ima svugdje, kao i onih sto u svakoj prilici drze stranu svome coporu.
Relativiziranje (stavljanje stvari i događaja u kontekst - šta, kako, zašto) nije isto što i negiranje. Ako neko koristi "ali" ne znači da negira. Mislim, može se desiti da negira, ali ne mora nužno značiti negiranje. Ja recimo ne negiram, ali mi strašno smeta stav Armenije da neće da idu u utvrđivanje činjenica i opsega tog genocida. Ko su počinitelji, uloga Rusije u nahuškavanju Armena da rastaču i da se bore protiv Osmanskog carstva u kojem su do tada jako dobro živjeri i imali enormnu demografsku ekspanziju, rastući puno brže od Turaka i Kurda, itd, itd.
A Turska negira jer se igra "velike sile" pa negira isto kao što i nekadašnje kolonijalne sile negiraju, isto kao što i sama Rusija negira nekoliko različitih genocida na predkavkazju i u centralnoj Aziji.
