Forum Klix.ba

Provincije Bosanske drzave:
1. Zemlja Bosna -
Capital of the state Bobovac Castle.
Religion -majority of people are Krstjani, with a large amount of Orthodox and smaller number of Catholic (K-60%, O-25%, C-15%)

2.Humska Zemlja -
castle - Blagaj (na Buni) not sure yet
Religion -majority Orthodox, some Krstjani and Catholics (O-65%, K-25%, C-10%)

3. Donji Kraje - Završje -
castle-Ključ
Religion -majority Catholic, with some Krstjani, few Orthodox (C-65%, K-25%, O-10%)

4. Usora- Soli
castle - Srebrenik
Religion - mostly Catholic with many Orthodox (C-55%, O-35%, K-10%)

Splet okolnosti kao i cinjenica da iznenadnom smrcu Srpskog cara Dusana u Srbiji pocinju unutrasnji nemiri i borbe srpske vlastele za preimucstvo, sto rezultira i samim raspadom Dusanovog carstva na sitne posjede lokalnih osamostaljenih velikasa, kao i njihova nesposobnost da se ujedine, olaksale su Tvrtku I da ne razmislja puno o tim, po Bosnu, cesto opasnim, istocnim granicama.
Na zapadu je vec bilo puno drugacije. Ugarski kralj Lodovik I sanja vec dugo o prevlasti na Balkanu i radi punom parom na obnavljanju kraljevskog prava i vlasti u svim djelovoma ugarsko – hrvatske drzave. Vremenom mu se podcinjavaju svi ugarski i hrvatski velikasi. Vec 1356 poveo je rat u kojem je potpuno porazio i istisnuo Veneciju sa istocne obale Jadrana, od "Kvarnera do Draca", kako je to zakljuceno Zadarskim mirom 1358. godine. Slijedeca na redu je bila Bosna, koju je posto poto htio dovesti u polozaj zavisnosti od ugarske krune. Prvo je prislio Tvrtka da mu ustupi zapadni Hum ( zap.hercegovinu) kao navodni miraz svoje zene Elizabete (kcerke bana Stjepana II). Zatim u zelji da uzdrma i destabilizuje bosansku drzavu podrzava i huska bosanske velikase i plemice razmjenjujuci sa njima neke teritorije na zapadnim granicama, jer zna da su svojevolja i uski interesi kod vecine bosanskih velikasa uvijek bili kocnica jacanju bosanske jedinstvenosti. I na kraju , nakon skoro stogodisnjeg zatisja, pokrece pitanje bosanskih heretika i bosanske crkve, zahtijevajuci njihov progon. Stoga 1363, otprema na Bosnu dvije krizarske vojske. Jednu koja od Sane nastupa prema Jajcu i koju on vodi licno, dok drugu, koja provaljuje sjeverno, u oblast Usore i Soli, povjerava svom dvorskom vitezu Nikoli Katu. No desava im se ono sto ni u snu nisu ni sanjali. Tvrtko I sa svojim jedinicama porazava obje vojske: Ludovikovu pod gradom Sokolom na Plivi kod Jajca, a onu drugu kod grada Srebrenika. Veliki Ludovik I koji od svog dolaska na vlast zna samo za pobjede, od srednje evrope i Italije, do Dalmacije i Bugarske u svom krizarskom pohodu na Bosnu pretrpljava tezak poraz. Iz Bosne se Ludovikova vojska povlaci i bjezi u velikom neredu i panici tako da tom prilikom gube cak i ugarski drzavni pecat.

Kralj Ludovik 1363 vladar Ungara bijase nepobjeden dok nije dosao ratovati sa Bosnjacima i Tvrtkom

Prije Bosne on Dode do Kvarnera..prosiri se ka centralnoj Europi..i po tzv ''Rimskom '' vjerom dekretom jer bijase sticenik Pape pise papi da su Bosnjaci krivovjerci 1362..i da on .mora da stane ukraj sa tim ''demonima''

Iako je cijela njegova zamisao bila da uzme dio Bosne..on se sukobi sa Tvrtkom i dobi po guzi


Prije toga u neuspjelom pohodu na Bosnu i tzv car Dusan 1351-1353..kazu da se nakon tog poraza nije oporavio i ubrzo je umro 1355 u svojoj 47 godini

Pa..prije toga smo Madare 1138 godine potukli..pa ih je i Kulin Banovao Bosanskim pecatom..a vidim ova nova Srbijada se jos nije opametila

Morat ce se i njima Bosanski pecat udariti..pa da Bosna bude kao sto je bila za Tvrtka od Save do Splita

The Hungarians amassed an immense Crusader Force. The Bosnians didn't want to give up their religion for another, under Hungarian sword, so they organized resistance. Soon the Crusaders, led by Croatia
Croatia

Croatia , officially the Republic of Croatia , is a country in Europe, at the crossroads of the Mediterranean, Central Europe and the Balkans....
's Herzog Coloman, stormed Bosnia. As Ban Matej didn't have the strength to oppose, he retreated to the impassable mountains and primeval forests. The war lasted for almost five years and was exhausting for both sides as can be seen in the fact that Bishop Wildeshausen begged the Pope to relief him from his duty. Ninoslav put up a staunch defense. Prince Sibislav of Usora joined the fight against Ninoslav soon. Many of the Bosnian noblemen under Sibislav crossed to the Hungarian side, while others were simply too afraid to act. On 26 April, 1238, it seemed that Coloman had destroyed the heretic strength in Bosnia, reporting to the pope that Bosnia had been cleansed. On 23 December, 1238, Coloman continued to amass victories against the heretic side. Although the Crusaders managed to freely overrun the Western Areas and the Hum they could never get a permanent hold of Bosnia proper. In 1237, deemed incapable, Bishop Wildeshausen was replaced by the Pope with a Hungarian Dominican, that conducted terror by burning the Bogomils on stakes. Matej had to retreat to Dubrovnik in 1240, after the numerous crusaders overran his realm.

In 1241, the Tartars invaded Hungary
Hungary

Hungary , officially the Republic of Hungary , is a landlocked country in Central Europe, bordered by Austria, Slovakia, Ukraine, Romania, Serbia, Croatia, and Slovenia....
and killed Herzog Coloman on the river of Šaj. King
Monarch

A monarch is a type of ruler or head of state. Monarchs almost always Inheritance their titles and are rulers for life, that is, they have no term limit....
Bela IV
Béla IV of Hungary

Bla IV was the king of Hungary between 1235 and 1270 and member of Arpad dynasty....
was on the retreat which enabled Ninoslav to restore control over most of Bosnia. The Tartars were fought off by the Croats, sending them back across Bosnia, bringing more destruction to the Bosnian land.

Split-Trogir conflict
In retaliation, Ninoslav punished the Pope's supporters throughout Bosnia after he restored control. His cousin, Prijezda, fled to Hungary
Hungary

Hungary , officially the Republic of Hungary , is a landlocked country in Central Europe, bordered by Austria, Slovakia, Ukraine, Romania, Serbia, Croatia, and Slovenia....
. Ninoslav also intervened in the civil war in Croatia
Croatia

Croatia , officially the Republic of Croatia , is a country in Europe, at the crossroads of the Mediterranean, Central Europe and the Balkans....
between the loyalist city of Trogir
Trogir

Trogir is a historic town and harbour on the Adriatic coast in Split-Dalmatia county, Croatia, with a population of 10,907 and a total municipality population of 13,322....
and rebelling Split
Split

Split is the largest and most important city in Dalmatia, the administrative center of Croatia's Split-Dalmatia County....
as he was looking to gain more of Split's possessions. He sided with Split which rebelled against King Bela IV and elected Ninoslav as its new Prince
Prince

The term prince , from the Latin root princeps, when used for a member of the highest aristocracy, has several fundamentally different meanings one generic, and several types of titles....
. The Split assault on the City of Trogir failed, but the City's surroundings were devastated. In 1244, King Bela sent one of his two armies on Bosnia against Ninoslav. Ninoslav lost Split, as the Hungarian Army, under Slavonia
Slavonia

Slavonia is a geographical and historical region in eastern Croatia. It is a fertile agricultural and forested lowland bounded, in part, by the Drava river in the north, the Sava river in the south, and the Danube river in the east....
's Ban Dionisus, together with the forces of Trogir took the city in the summer of 1244. A peace treaty was signed on July 19, 1244. The amnesty itself excluded Split's allies, presented by Ninoslav. The other army was led by King Bela and breached to the city of Glaško in Bosnia. Bosnia was not harmed itself by the King's military campaign and a peace was signed on 20 July, 1244 with Ban Ninoslav and his brothers and nobility, that confirmed the rights and lands of the Bosnian Church
Bosnian Church

The Bosnian Church is historically thought to be an indigenous branch of the Bogomils which existed in Bosnia and Herzegovina during in the Middle Ages....
. Bela's negotiations lasted in Glaško from 15th to 21 July. Matej Ninoslav had to only nominally recognize Hungarian rule and kept his possessions abroad, in Slavonia. He also had to grant numerous lands in Bosnia itself, recognizing and keeping the organization and infrastructure of the Catholic Church.

Proposed Crusade against Ninoslav
The Bosnian heresy remained strong, so King Bela IV and the Roman Catholic Archbishop
Archbishop

In Christianity, an archbishop is an elevated bishop. Usually, this means that he leads a diocese of particular importance called an diocese, but this is not always the case....
requested that Pope Innocent IV
Pope Innocent IV

Pope Innocent IV , born Sinibaldo de Fieschi, Pope from 1243 to 1254, belonged to the feudal nobility of Liguria, the Lavagna....
launch a new Crusade against Ninoslav in 1247. The situation grew very dangerous, so Ninoslav wrote to the new Pope that he always remained a staunch Catholic Christian, and never a heretic. This was confirmed by the Pope's delegates that visited Bosnia shortly thereafter. The Pope wrote to the Catholic Archbishop in 1248 stating that he found Ninoslav to be a noble man and loyal to the Catholic faith, despite the sympathy he received infidels against his old enemies, and asked the Archbishop not to rise up against the Ban.

The Hungarians amassed an immense Crusader Force. The Bosnians didn't want to give up their religion for another, under Hungarian sword, so they organized resistance. Soon the Crusaders, led by Croatia's Herzog Coloman, stormed Bosnia. As Ban Matej didn't have the strength to oppose, he retreated to the impassable mountains and primeval forests. The war lasted for almost five years and was exhausting for both sides as can be seen in the fact that Bishop Wildeshausen begged the Pope to relief him from his duty. Ninoslav put up a staunch defense. Prince Sibislav of Usora joined the fight against Ninoslav soon. Many of the Bosnian noblemen under Sibislav crossed to the Hungarian side, while others were simply too afraid to act. On 26 April, 1238, it seemed that Coloman had destroyed the heretic strength in Bosnia, reporting to the pope that Bosnia had been cleansed. On 23 December, 1238, Coloman continued to amass victories against the heretic side. Although the Crusaders managed to freely overrun the Western Areas and the Hum they could never get a permanent hold of Bosnia proper. In 1237, deemed incapable, Bishop Wildeshausen was replaced by the Pope with a Hungarian Dominican, that conducted terror by burning the Bogomils on stakes. Matej had to retreat to Dubrovnik in 1240, after the numerous crusaders overran his realm.

In 1241, the Tartars invaded Hungary and killed Herzog Coloman on the river of Šaj. King Monarch Béla IV of Hungary was on the retreat which enabled Ninoslav to restore control over most of Bosnia. The Tartars were fought off by the Croats, sending them back across Bosnia, bringing more destruction to the Bosnian land.

In retaliation, Ninoslav punished the Pope's supporters throughout Bosnia after he restored control. His cousin, Prijezda, fled to Hungary. Ninoslav also intervened in the civil war in Croatia between the loyalist city of Trogir and rebelling Split as he was looking to gain more of Split's possessions. He sided with Split which rebelled against King Bela IV and elected Ninoslav as its new Prince. The Split assault on the City of Trogir failed, but the City's surroundings were devastated. In 1244, King Bela sent one of his two armies on Bosnia against Ninoslav. Ninoslav lost Split, as the Hungarian Army, under Slavonia's Ban Dionisus, together with the forces of Trogir took the city in the summer of 1244. A peace treaty was signed on July 19, 1244. The amnesty itself excluded Split's allies, presented by Ninoslav. The other army was led by King Bela and breached to the city of Glaško in Bosnia. Bosnia was not harmed itself by the King's military campaign and a peace was signed on 20 July, 1244 with Ban Ninoslav and his brothers and nobility, that confirmed the rights and lands of the Bosnian Church. Bela's negotiations lasted in Glaško from 15th to 21 July. Matej Ninoslav had to only nominally recognize Hungarian rule and kept his possessions abroad, in Slavonia. He also had to grant numerous lands in Bosnia itself, recognizing and keeping the organization and infrastructure of the Catholic Church.

The Bosnian heresy remained strong, so King Bela IV and the Roman Catholic Archbishop requested that Pope Innocent IV launch a new Crusade against Ninoslav in 1247. The situation grew very dangerous, so Ninoslav wrote to the new Pope that he always remained a staunch Catholic Christian, and never a heretic. This was confirmed by the Pope's delegates that visited Bosnia shortly thereafter. The Pope wrote to the Catholic Archbishop in 1248 stating that he found Ninoslav to be a noble man and loyal to the Catholic faith, despite the sympathy he received infidels against his old enemies, and asked the Archbishop not to rise up against the Ban

Van Halen wrote:Kad je srpski car Dušan napao Bosnu 1350, udario je sa 80.000 vojnika na stolni grad Bobovac. Nikad ga nije uspio osvojiti. bosanska vojska iako u tom trenutku slabija pružila je fantastičan otpor zahvaljujući sjajnoj strategiji bana Stjepana II Kotromanića. On je vodio gerilski rat tako što je iskoristio geografski položaj Bosne. Sakrio se sa odanim ljudima u neprohodne klance i nepristupačne planine i lagano iscrpljivao neprijatelja. Pošto se rat odužio mimo svih očekivanja Dušana,koji je ovim ratom htio vratiti Hum (Hercegovinu) srpski car je pribjegao lukavstvu i podmitio neke od najbližih saradnika bana Stjepana. Ipak prevara je na vrijeme otkrivena, a rat je ban nastavio tako što je stalno mijenjao saradnike, i okružio se ljudima od najvećeg povjerenja. Nakon određenog vremena, ogromno srpsko carstvo nije moglo sebi dopustiti da carska vojska bude dugo na jednom mjestu. Izbila je pobuna u području današnje Albanije i car se neobavljenog posla povukao. Tako je odbranjen Bobovac i Bosna, taktikom iscrpljivanja i gerilskom borbom.

Hrast wrote:

Van Halen wrote:Kad je srpski car Dušan napao Bosnu 1350, udario je sa 80.000 vojnika na stolni grad Bobovac. Nikad ga nije uspio osvojiti. bosanska vojska iako u tom trenutku slabija pružila je fantastičan otpor zahvaljujući sjajnoj strategiji bana Stjepana II Kotromanića. On je vodio gerilski rat tako što je iskoristio geografski položaj Bosne. Sakrio se sa odanim ljudima u neprohodne klance i nepristupačne planine i lagano iscrpljivao neprijatelja. Pošto se rat odužio mimo svih očekivanja Dušana,koji je ovim ratom htio vratiti Hum (Hercegovinu) srpski car je pribjegao lukavstvu i podmitio neke od najbližih saradnika bana Stjepana. Ipak prevara je na vrijeme otkrivena, a rat je ban nastavio tako što je stalno mijenjao saradnike, i okružio se ljudima od najvećeg povjerenja. Nakon određenog vremena, ogromno srpsko carstvo nije moglo sebi dopustiti da carska vojska bude dugo na jednom mjestu. Izbila je pobuna u području današnje Albanije i car se neobavljenog posla povukao. Tako je odbranjen Bobovac i Bosna, taktikom iscrpljivanja i gerilskom borbom.

Ne dovodim u pitanje samu bitku i njen ishod ali mi se brojka od 80 000 vojnika cini jako pretjerana kada uzmem u obzir vakat u kojem se odigrala. U kasnom srednjem vijeku vojske nisu bile tako ogromne.

Ali ne mari, ionako ne igra ulogu, samo sam htio da ti ukazem na tu cinjenicu.

Pietje_Bel wrote:

Hrast wrote:

Van Halen wrote:Kad je srpski car Dušan napao Bosnu 1350, udario je sa 80.000 vojnika na stolni grad Bobovac. Nikad ga nije uspio osvojiti. bosanska vojska iako u tom trenutku slabija pružila je fantastičan otpor zahvaljujući sjajnoj strategiji bana Stjepana II Kotromanića. On je vodio gerilski rat tako što je iskoristio geografski položaj Bosne. Sakrio se sa odanim ljudima u neprohodne klance i nepristupačne planine i lagano iscrpljivao neprijatelja. Pošto se rat odužio mimo svih očekivanja Dušana,koji je ovim ratom htio vratiti Hum (Hercegovinu) srpski car je pribjegao lukavstvu i podmitio neke od najbližih saradnika bana Stjepana. Ipak prevara je na vrijeme otkrivena, a rat je ban nastavio tako što je stalno mijenjao saradnike, i okružio se ljudima od najvećeg povjerenja. Nakon određenog vremena, ogromno srpsko carstvo nije moglo sebi dopustiti da carska vojska bude dugo na jednom mjestu. Izbila je pobuna u području današnje Albanije i car se neobavljenog posla povukao. Tako je odbranjen Bobovac i Bosna, taktikom iscrpljivanja i gerilskom borbom.

Ne dovodim u pitanje samu bitku i njen ishod ali mi se brojka od 80 000 vojnika cini jako pretjerana kada uzmem u obzir vakat u kojem se odigrala. U kasnom srednjem vijeku vojske nisu bile tako ogromne.

Ali ne mari, ionako ne igra ulogu, samo sam htio da ti ukazem na tu cinjenicu.

Ovaj Srbin sto pravi ovu igru je isto tako pricao o cifri od 80.000 i meni je zvucilo nevjerovatno. Ako je VAN HALEN ovo pokupio iz neke ozbiljne literature kao i ovaj Srbin onda bi mogla biti istina. 80.000 konjanika koji se nisu mogli snaci u brdima i koji su se morali povuci. Vrlo moguce laicki govoreci. I Madarski kralj Ludovik je imao slican problem. Napao Bosnu sa konjicom i nije mogao osvojiti niti jedan grad te priznao da je "izgubio Bosanski pecat".

Van Halen wrote:Kako je ban Stjepan II odbijao svaki razgovor, to car Dušan tokom oktobra meseca 1350. godine pokrene veliku vojsku na Bosnu. "Krenuvši na put s caricom, dođe na granicu Bosne, kod reke Drine, s pedeset hiljada konjanika i trideset hiljada pešaka" (Mavro Orbin). Znajući da ne može izdržati direktan sudar sa carskom vojskom, ban Stjepan II je u samome početku pokušao da organizuje neku vrstu gerilske taktike. "Ali uvidevši na kraju da neće moći odoleti neprijateljskoj vojsci, poseče mnogo velikih stabala pomoću kojih zakrči prolaze, te osta povučen u šumama i planinama kao u nekim tvrđavama, braneći s mnogo ljudi sve prolaze kroz koje se moglo prodreti s vojskom u Bosnu" (Mavro Orbin). Taktika je bila dobro zamišljena i moguće je da bi carevoj vojsci ban naneo mnogo štete i možda do kraja ga naterao na povlačenje. Iako osion i veoma svojevoljan, ban Stjepan II se pokazao kao nepokolebljiv i veoma hrabar. Međutim, ni car Dušan nije bio naivan. Uspeo je da uz pomoć mita unese razdor među Stjepanovu vlastelu, tako da je dosta njegovih ljudi prešlo na carevu stranu. Samim tim i otpor koji je zamišljen nije mogao biti i sproveden.

Ostavši bez vojske morao je ban Stjepan II da misli kako će da spasi glavu. Sa ono malo preostalih ljudi povukao se u planinu, ali ni u njih nije imao poverenja plašeći se izdaje. "Stoga odluči da se povuče u planine s malim brojem svojih ljudi, koje je i dalje, ipak, menjao kako ga neko od njih ne bi izdao" (Mavro Orbin). Slomivši tako odmah u početku svaki otpor car Dušan je sa svojom vojskom postepeno zauzimao Bosnu. Uskoro je stigao pod Bobovac, jedno veoma jako utvrđenje, u kojem se nalazila banova ćerka Jelisaveta. "Baci se još na osvajanje utvrđenja Bobovca, u koje se bila sklonila Jelisaveta, jedinica kći bana Stjepana, koja je tada bila devojčica, a kasnije žena Ludovika, ugarskog kralja, i majka Marije, žene cara Žigmunda" (Mavro Orbin). Do kraja se pokazalo d je ovaj tvrdi grad ipak suviše utvrđen da bi se mogao brzo osvojiti, a osim toga ni car nije pokazivao neku posebnu volju, pa je opsada uskoro skinuta. Nakon toga, car Dušan je poslao vojsku da pleni po Bosni. "Utaborivši se tu, posla deo vojske da pleni prema reci Cetini i onoj drugoj reci, Krki, prema Hrvatskoj, a on s ostalim delom vojske skrenu prema Humskoj oblasti" (Mavro Orbin).

Možda je car Dušan očekivao da će ban Stjepan II ponuditi pregovore, međutim, to što se Bobovac održao moglo je banu samo da pruži daljnjeg podstreka u otporu. Ko zna kako bi se sve to završilo da iznenada ne dođe do cara Dušana vest da su Vizantinci počeli ofanzivu u Makedoniji i da tamo stvari jako loše stoje. Kako mu je taj deo države u tome momentu bio važniji on odmah pokrene vojsku ka Makedoniji, ostavivši neke garnizone da sačuvaju osvojeni Hum. Međutim, kako se car Dušan povukao iz Bosne tako je ban za samo par meseci povratio sve ono što je car osvojio. Iako nije dobio ni jednu bitku, ban Stjepan II je na kraju, uz splet srećnih okolnosti, pobedio u ovom ratu.

http://www.rastko.org.yu/istorija/zfajf ... c486040899

Izvor je srpska stranica za historiju i kulturu. A knjiga je veoma dobra i preporučujem da je pročitate. Sigurno ćete naći dosta stvari koje do sada niste znali.

hrabren miloradovic wrote:Nije to ništa , hrvatski kralj Tomislav je imao 100.000 pešadinaca,60.000 konjanika,40velikih i 100 malih brodova , i to sve 400 godina pre Dušana i Napoleona!

Ali hoću reći da se niti Dušanova vojska niti Tomislavova ne može porediti sa hrabrošću bosanskih gerilaca bana Stjepana!!

Nije to ništa , hrvatski kralj Tomislav je imao 100.000 pešadinaca,60.000 konjanika,40velikih i 100 malih brodova , i to sve 400 godina pre Dušana i Napoleona!

Ali hoću reći da se niti Dušanova vojska niti Tomislavova ne može porediti sa hrabrošću bosanskih gerilaca bana Stjepana!!

Hrast wrote:
Hmmm .. da nije on (Tomislav) mozda bio reinkarnacija velikog perzijskog kralja Dareiosa I.? Pa naravno, sad mi sinu, ne tvrdi se dzaba da su Hrvati ustvari arijevski narod koji se na Balkan doselio iz Irana.

U anticko vrijeme, i naravno nakon ukidanja evropskog srednjovjekovnog feudalizma, vojske su mogle da budu tako velike. U srednjem vijeku niposto.


Normalno je da svaka vrsta mitomanije uzdize hrabrost, nepokolebljivost, itd., vlastitih predaka - pa tako (narocito) i srpska sa svojim kosovskim mitom. Tu bitku tadasnji Srbi, Bosanci i Albanci nisu izgubili zbog osmanske nadmoci vec zbog losije taktike i slabije discipline. Osmanlije su posjedovali prvu stalnu vojsku evropskog kontinenta - janjicare. Srpska konjanica je probila prve redove osmanske lake pjesadije, ali su zube slomili na centru, na takozvanom "sultanovom sancu" kojeg su branili janjicari. Onda je "munja" udarila s lijevog boka i ode Lazar u "vecna lovista".

Pietje_Bel wrote:Ja bih zelio da vidim taj izvor iz kojeg je izvaden taj podatak od 80.000 ljudi. Da je ovo napisao neki Bosnjak 100% bih bio prvi koji bi rekao da je laz i mitomanija. Ali kad je ovo vec napisao Srbin onda bih zelio da znam odakle je taj Srpski istoricar crpio svoje podatke, da li je to stvarno crpio iz falsifikata nekog i da li su i drugi pisali o ovome?

80.000 stvarno zvuci pretjerano ali 1000 ljudi je jednostavno nista za jednu carevinu po meni. Da jedna carevina Srbija koja se prostire od Vojvodine do Albanije i koja ima 800.000 stanovnika ne moze mobilizovati vise od 1000 vojnika zvuci ne realno. A krscanski ratovi nisu trebali biti uopste veci od neke velike drzavne invazije jer je svaka krscanska zemlja slala samo jedan odred u rat a ne masovnu vojsku.