Danasnji "feminizam"

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dale cooper
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#11051 Re: Danasnji "feminizam"

Post by dale cooper »

Niemand wrote: 13/06/2020 00:27
dale cooper wrote: 13/06/2020 00:16
Pa neće psiholozi pričati sa trogodišnjim djetetom o hormonskim terapijama, pričaće sa roditeljima o mogućim opcijama kad i ako
dijete počne izražavati nelagodu sa spolom sa kojim je rođen.

Pročitao sam članak i najveća zamjerka je da stručnjaci nemaju dovoljno vremena da procjene pacijenta i da daju dijagnozu pa smatraju
da zato postoji bojazan da se previše pacijenata pogrešno dijagnozira sa gender dysphoriom. Kao i da smatraju da se djeci daje previše
lijekova za blokiranje puberteta. Jesam li dobro sažeo? Ah da, bivši zaposlenici su se žalili da nisu mogli propisno da procjene pacijenta
zbog straha da će ih označiti kao transfobične. Što mi je najsporniji dio članka, jer sugeriše da je NHS namjerno požurivao da se pacijenti
dijagnoziraju sa gender dysphoriom. U koju svrhu? Ali onda sam skontao da članak dolazi od Telegrapha koji se opez poziva na istragu Sky Newsa
Oba medija sa jakom desničarskom propagandom u vlasništvu prominentnih desničarskih figura u UK.

Jel' mogu reći da karikiraš? Jer ne znam koju drugu riječ da nađem za poređenje spola i roda sa titom, kaubojima i indijancima. :mrgreen:
Tako je, pricace sa roditeljima o mogucim opcijama, jer sto bi uzelo u obzir da to prica dijete, koje je nase drustvo u necem sto se zove zakon okarakterisalo da nije sposobno jos uvijek za donijeti razumne procjene. Uostalom, sta ce mu i opcije, to je ionako samo socijalna konstrukcija, nista vise.

Al nista, ako to kaze stranica koja ima veze sa cim desnim, to sigurno ne moze biti istina.

A ti mozes reci sta ti volja, mada sam se vec na banaliziranje pomalo navikla. :)
Nisam rekao da je članak neistinit, ali da je obojen određenim biasom to sigurno jeste. Osim toga Telegraph je i ranije imao gomilu
kontraverzi, od toga da je nekritički glasnik premijera Borisa Johnsona pa do islamofobičnih tekstova zbog kojih su se morali izvinjavati.

Pronađi riječ koja tebi godi, meni je svejedno. :mrgreen:
Niemand
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#11052 Re: Danasnji "feminizam"

Post by Niemand »

dale cooper wrote: 13/06/2020 00:37
Nisam rekao da je članak neistinit, ali da je obojen određenim biasom to sigurno jeste. Osim toga Telegraph je i ranije imao gomilu
kontraverzi, od toga da je nekritički glasnik premijera Borisa Johnsona pa do islamofobičnih tekstova zbog kojih su se morali izvinjavati.

Pronađi riječ koja tebi godi, meni je svejedno. :mrgreen:
Pa ako jk rowling dobije onoliki shitstorm, nesto mi nelogicno da bi neki lijevi to uopste i objavili, stoga ne odbacujem sve sto napise desno il lijevo samo zato jer je desno il lijevo jer i jedni i drugi imaju ideologije.

A sto se rijeci tice, vatever vala. Samo ti.
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dale cooper
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#11053 Re: Danasnji "feminizam"

Post by dale cooper »

Niemand wrote: 13/06/2020 00:48
dale cooper wrote: 13/06/2020 00:37
Nisam rekao da je članak neistinit, ali da je obojen određenim biasom to sigurno jeste. Osim toga Telegraph je i ranije imao gomilu
kontraverzi, od toga da je nekritički glasnik premijera Borisa Johnsona pa do islamofobičnih tekstova zbog kojih su se morali izvinjavati.

Pronađi riječ koja tebi godi, meni je svejedno. :mrgreen:
Pa ako jk rowling dobije onoliki shitstorm, nesto mi nelogicno da bi neki lijevi to uopste i objavili, stoga ne odbacujem sve sto napise desno il lijevo samo zato jer je desno il lijevo jer i jedni i drugi imaju ideologije.

A sto se rijeci tice, vatever vala. Samo ti.
Zašto ne bi objavili, Rowlingova je javna ličnost i javno je izašla sa svojim stavom. Većina medija, lijevih i desnih, je objavila. :)
Niemand
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#11054 Re: Danasnji "feminizam"

Post by Niemand »

dale cooper wrote: 13/06/2020 00:56
Zašto ne bi objavili, Rowlingova je javna ličnost i javno je izašla sa svojim stavom. Većina medija, lijevih i desnih, je objavila. :)
Jer ima svako svoju ideologiju pa samim tim mozes na to gledati ili kao vidi ove sto je napisala heri potera sto je transfobicna :shock: ili vidi sto ljudi napadaju onu sto je napisala heri potera i vicu da je transfobicna :shock:

Na ovo iz clanka mozes sa lijeve strane reci pretezno to sto si i ti-desnicari transfobicni i kraj price. Pa i ljevicarima, ako se ne slazu sa tobom.

Stoga mene sto se tice nisam iskljuciva po pitanju medija. Al da ne banaliziramo dalje. Nema ni smisla.
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dale cooper
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#11055 Re: Danasnji "feminizam"

Post by dale cooper »

Niemand wrote: 13/06/2020 01:05
dale cooper wrote: 13/06/2020 00:56
Zašto ne bi objavili, Rowlingova je javna ličnost i javno je izašla sa svojim stavom. Većina medija, lijevih i desnih, je objavila. :)
Jer ima svako svoju ideologiju pa samim tim mozes na to gledati ili kao vidi ove sto je napisala heri potera sto je transfobicna :shock: ili vidi sto ljudi napadaju onu sto je napisala heri potera i vicu da je transfobicna :shock:

Na ovo iz clanka mozes sa lijeve strane reci pretezno to sto si i ti-desnicari transfobicni i kraj price. Pa i ljevicarima, ako se ne slazu sa tobom.

Stoga mene sto se tice nisam iskljuciva po pitanju medija. Al da ne banaliziramo dalje. Nema ni smisla.
Da, ali vijest je vijest. Vjerovatno će nakon ovoga (a mislim da već i jesu) uslijediti viđenja i thinkpieces sa obje strane ideološkog spektruma.

Poštujem. :kakoste:
Hakiz
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#11056 Re: Danasnji "feminizam"

Post by Hakiz »

MarlboroGold wrote: 12/06/2020 17:04
Niemand wrote: 12/06/2020 16:55 apsolutno sam protiv bez obzira sta kazu kojekakvi strucnjaci, jer ni tkz strucnjaci tu vise nisu objektivni vec ideoloski obojeni kao sto vidis iz clanka.
Ovo. Nema ništa gore kad pročitam izjave nekog stručnjaka koji lupa teške gluposti. Ne znam kako ih nije sramota struke jbt kad su se toliko srozali da istu ideološki oboje.
Baš je ovdje na ovoj temi bilo svakakvih članaka koji su za :-)
E, ali ako nećemo vjerovati stručnjaku, kome ćemo? Forumašu? OK, zašto? Koliko on zna? Kako znamo da stvarno zna ako i tvrdi da zna? Kako znamo da i forumaš nije ideološki obojen?

Čak i kada postoji opasnost da je stručnjak ideološki obojen, za razliku od forumaša, on ipak ima neku stvar za koju se možemo uhvatiti, a to je da je od nekog tijela koje to ocjenjuje dobio potvrdu da je stručnjak. Forumaš to nema, a takođe postoji opasnost da je ideološki obojen.

Tako da, primjera radi, od 10 negativnih osobina kojima ocjenjujemo kome vjerovati, forumaš ima 10 a stručnjak 9. Ili od pozitivnih, forumaš ima 0 a stručnjak ima 1. Naravno, možda forumaš ima više pozitivnih ili manje negativnih, ali kako se to ne može provjeriti, ostaje samo ono šta se može provjeriti a to je da je stručnjak ipak stručnjak, dakle ima potvrdu da zna nešto o onome o čemu govori, dok forumaš piše ono šta misli ali nema potvrdu da išta zna o onome o čemu govori. Nebitno je da li stvarno zna ili ne, problem je u tome da se ne može provjeriti.

Dakle, poenta cijele ove tirade je ta da u situaciji u kojoj jedan forumaš procjenjuje da li da vjeruje stručnjaku uz sve opasnosti da je možda korumpiran ili drugom forumašu uz iste te opasnosti, a pretpostavimo da opcija da ne vjeruje ni jednom ni drugom nije moguća, logičan i racionalan zaključak se sam nameće:

Vjerovati stručnjaku.

Druga stvar je naš poriv da podržimo onoga koji govori ono šta nam se sviđa, vjerujemo onome koji potvrđuje naše stavove ne razmišljajući da li je to tačno ili ne. Ali, to je nešto sasvim drugo.
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#11057 Re: Danasnji "feminizam"

Post by Niemand »

dale cooper wrote: 13/06/2020 01:10
Niemand wrote: 13/06/2020 01:05
dale cooper wrote: 13/06/2020 00:56
Zašto ne bi objavili, Rowlingova je javna ličnost i javno je izašla sa svojim stavom. Većina medija, lijevih i desnih, je objavila. :)
Jer ima svako svoju ideologiju pa samim tim mozes na to gledati ili kao vidi ove sto je napisala heri potera sto je transfobicna :shock: ili vidi sto ljudi napadaju onu sto je napisala heri potera i vicu da je transfobicna :shock:

Na ovo iz clanka mozes sa lijeve strane reci pretezno to sto si i ti-desnicari transfobicni i kraj price. Pa i ljevicarima, ako se ne slazu sa tobom.

Stoga mene sto se tice nisam iskljuciva po pitanju medija. Al da ne banaliziramo dalje. Nema ni smisla.
Da, ali vijest je vijest. Vjerovatno će nakon ovoga (a mislim da već i jesu) uslijediti viđenja i thinkpieces sa obje strane ideološkog spektruma.

Poštujem. :kakoste:
Iako sam kada sam ti stavila link u vezi strucnjaka zaista i mislila na ono sto pise u clanku u vezi strucnjaka a ne na to jel to desna il lijeva stranica i slicno, sad sam bas guglala i jeste, otislo je dalje (valjda je ovaj put prihvatljiva stranica):

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51033911



:kakoste:
Hakiz
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#11058 Re: Danasnji "feminizam"

Post by Hakiz »

dale cooper wrote: 12/06/2020 22:40
Niemand wrote: 12/06/2020 16:55
dale cooper wrote: 12/06/2020 16:37

Ja da me ubiješ ne mogu izvući zaključak kakvo je tvoje mišljene vezano za transrodne osobe.
Vidim samo da si puna kritika na njihov račun.

Pa sigurno da stvari nisu savršene i da odredjene terapije nekada ne daju željene rezultate. Siguran sam i da ako proguglam mogu naći i studije koje govore u korist pozitivnih rezultata.
Pitala sam te za clanak, ne da nagadjas sta ja mislim, jer i nema potrebe, napisala sam, za djecu koja nisu sposobna donositi puno manje odluke kamoli nesto takvo, zbog cega uostalom i imaju staratelje i zakon ih tretira inace tako, apsolutno sam protiv bez obzira sta kazu kojekakvi strucnjaci, jer ni tkz strucnjaci tu vise nisu objektivni vec ideoloski obojeni kao sto vidis iz clanka.

slicno i za ove sto su malo ovo-malo ono i eto, osjecam se tako i nemoj me diskriminisati ako sam danas se probudio kao zena i usao u zensku svlacionicu, jer dje prestaje to uopste, silujes nekog i odjednom kazes da si zensko pa ides u zenski zatvor al odbijas operaciju i hormone? Milion upitnika a odgovori su-to je transfobija. Sve to na osnovu osjecaja?

Za odrasle osobe a koje se operisu, kao sto sam rekla, nek rade sta hoce, stvarno me se ne tice, oslovljavacu ih kao i svakog drugog, bez obzira sta mislila o tom. Meni uostalom i sve to oko socijalnog konstrukta i roda ni nema smisla.

Na sta ne pristajem je da ne smijem nista reci.
Članak na koji si se ti referirala se odnosi na tinejdžere u dobi kada se već mogu odlučiti na tranziciju i početi primati određene terapije uz
psihijatrijsku pomoć. Mi smo, ako se sjećaš, govorili o petogodišnjacima i ja sam u tom kontekstu rekao da roditelji, ako primjete određene
znake, se mogu posavjetovati sa stručnjacima, misleći naravno na psihologe. U tim godinama je svakako nepoželjno i nemoguće bilo šta
drugo uraditi. A naravno da će biti i promašaja i pogrešnih dijagnoza u tretiranju gender dysphorie, jer su ovo još relativno nove stvari
za medicinsku struku. Da ne govorimo o tome da je adolescencija svakako vrijeme kada djeca istražuju ko su i šta su u smislu svog
identiteta i to ne samo seksualnog.

Ne znam, ja ne vidim stvari tako jednostavno da se može reći da se neko samo tako probudi jedan dan i počne osjećati kao žena ili kao
muškarac. To su mnogo kompleksnije stvari nego što možemo i ja i ti adekvatno sagledati i odgovoriti u okviru ove teme.
Ja promjenu spola ne bih dozvolio nikome ko ima manje od 20, možda i 25.

Nisam jednom sa 15 ili 19 rekao kategorički "Ja ovo hoću ili neću" a već sa 16, 17 ili 20 govorio suprotno. Ili barem prestao biti toliko kategoričan. Banalno, sa 18 sam govorio da ništa osim rocka neću slušati i da se rock, muzika uopšte, apsolutno mora slušati glasno da bi zvuk bio dobar, da bi se sve nijanse čule. Sada mi je 51 i šta mislite, mislim li jednako i o vrsti muzike koju mogu slušati i o glasnoći, da li sam sveć sa 25 ili 30 mislio isto kao sa 18 :wink: A to je banalnost naspram promjene spola.

Mladost je nagla i sve da je dijete u tom trenutku potpuno uvjereno u ono šta govori, nikako se ne može biti siguran u to da se neće promijeniti. Ko zna zašto to dijete tako misli i čak osjeća u tom trenutku To odlaganje prava na promjenu spola možda donosi patnju nekome ko je stvarno zreo za taj čin, ali ta patnja je manja od patnje možda čak i te iste osobe koja će promijeniti spol i onda skontati da je pogriješila. Spol se prvi put uvijek može promijeniti, ali kada se jednom promijeni, bojim se da nema nazad.
Last edited by Hakiz on 13/06/2020 01:35, edited 1 time in total.
Niemand
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#11059 Re: Danasnji "feminizam"

Post by Niemand »

Iz nekog razloga drugi link se ucita kao video, a to je clanak

NHS gender clinic 'should have challenged me more' over transition.

Ako nekog zanima uopste, jel.

:kakoste:
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dale cooper
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#11060 Re: Danasnji "feminizam"

Post by dale cooper »

Niemand wrote: 13/06/2020 01:30
dale cooper wrote: 13/06/2020 01:10
Niemand wrote: 13/06/2020 01:05

Jer ima svako svoju ideologiju pa samim tim mozes na to gledati ili kao vidi ove sto je napisala heri potera sto je transfobicna :shock: ili vidi sto ljudi napadaju onu sto je napisala heri potera i vicu da je transfobicna :shock:

Na ovo iz clanka mozes sa lijeve strane reci pretezno to sto si i ti-desnicari transfobicni i kraj price. Pa i ljevicarima, ako se ne slazu sa tobom.

Stoga mene sto se tice nisam iskljuciva po pitanju medija. Al da ne banaliziramo dalje. Nema ni smisla.
Da, ali vijest je vijest. Vjerovatno će nakon ovoga (a mislim da već i jesu) uslijediti viđenja i thinkpieces sa obje strane ideološkog spektruma.

Poštujem. :kakoste:
Iako sam kada sam ti stavila link u vezi strucnjaka zaista i mislila na ono sto pise u clanku u vezi strucnjaka a ne na to jel to desna il lijeva stranica i slicno, sad sam bas guglala i jeste, otislo je dalje (valjda je ovaj put prihvatljiva stranica):

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51033911



:kakoste:
Meni nije ni bio sporan ovaj dio o potencijalnim štetnim efektima korištenja ovih lijekova za blokiranje puberteta i cross-sex hormonske
terapije.

Već ovaj dio:
Former staff said they were unable to properly assess patients over fears they will be branded "transphobic".
Koji mi miriše na taj desničarski bias prisutan u Telegraphovim člancima.
Hakiz
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#11061 Re: Danasnji "feminizam"

Post by Hakiz »

Koliko samo raznih oblika patnje na ovom svijetu ima...
Niemand
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#11062 Re: Danasnji "feminizam"

Post by Niemand »

dale cooper wrote: 13/06/2020 01:42
Meni nije ni bio sporan ovaj dio o potencijalnim štetnim efektima korištenja ovih lijekova za blokiranje puberteta i cross-sex hormonske
terapije.

Već ovaj dio:
Former staff said they were unable to properly assess patients over fears they will be branded "transphobic".
Koji mi miriše na taj desničarski bias prisutan u Telegraphovim člancima.
Vidi, da si ti rekao odmah "pih, telegraf, desnicari", sve oke, otisla bih vidjeti jel ima taj clanak neko od tebi prihvatljivih medija. Nego ne, pricamo i pricamo, pa onda "jah, telegraf", kazem ti da citam oboje bas zbog ideologija, i iskreno veze nemam jel to objavio i neko lijevi il ne, i sve da i nije bilo bi mi jasno zasto nije, nadjem ti dva clanka bbc-a, i opet isto. Desnicari. Al evo, kad je vec dotle, a ono iz clanaka sa telgrafa na bbc-u ne mogu naci a koji jeste bio poenta onog sto sam ti pokusala reci uopste, mozel ovaj clanak

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-47359692

Bgm vise ne shvatam kakva je ovo prica uopste. Nije ni bitno doduse, svakako banaliziram. Ja. A ne ti.

:kakoste:
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dale cooper
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#11063 Re: Danasnji "feminizam"

Post by dale cooper »

Niemand wrote: 13/06/2020 02:01
dale cooper wrote: 13/06/2020 01:42
Meni nije ni bio sporan ovaj dio o potencijalnim štetnim efektima korištenja ovih lijekova za blokiranje puberteta i cross-sex hormonske
terapije.

Već ovaj dio:
Former staff said they were unable to properly assess patients over fears they will be branded "transphobic".
Koji mi miriše na taj desničarski bias prisutan u Telegraphovim člancima.
Vidi, da si ti rekao odmah "pih, telegraf, desnicari", sve oke, otisla bih vidjeti jel ima taj clanak neko od tebi prihvatljivih medija. Nego ne, pricamo i pricamo, pa onda "jah, telegraf", kazem ti da citam oboje bas zbog ideologija, i iskreno veze nemam jel to objavio i neko lijevi il ne, i sve da i nije bilo bi mi jasno zasto nije, nadjem ti dva clanka bbc-a, i opet isto. Desnicari. Al evo, kad je vec dotle, a ono iz clanaka sa telgrafa na bbc-u ne mogu naci a koji jeste bio poenta onog sto sam ti pokusala reci uopste, mozel ovaj clanak

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-47359692

Bgm vise ne shvatam kakva je ovo prica uopste. Nije ni bitno doduse, svakako banaliziram. Ja. A ne ti.

:kakoste:
Opet...ja nisam rekao ni za Telegraphov članak da je neistina, već da jedan sporni dio, koji sam citirao gore, sadrži određeni desničarski
obojen bias, jer govori da je bivše osoblje bilo u nemogućnosti da rade svoj posao kako treba, jer su bili u strahu da će biti označeni kao
transfobi. Što indirektno sugerira da jedna ustanova kao što je NHS gura pro transgender agendu i prisiljava ljekare na to.

A istina je da je kompletan NHS pod pritiskom sa raznih strana, što stoji u jednom dijelu ovog BBC članka što si ga gore postavila:

Adolescence and childhood is a time when people are developing socially and biologically - a time when young people are identifying with different groups, and with male and female aspects of themselves. There is pressure from the child who is in a distressed state, there is pressure from the family and the peer group and from the pro-trans lobbies - and all of this puts pressure on the clinician who may want to help the individual to resolve their distressed state by going along with a quick solution.
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MarlboroGold
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#11064 Re: Danasnji "feminizam"

Post by MarlboroGold »

Hakiz wrote: 13/06/2020 01:10
MarlboroGold wrote: 12/06/2020 17:04
Niemand wrote: 12/06/2020 16:55 apsolutno sam protiv bez obzira sta kazu kojekakvi strucnjaci, jer ni tkz strucnjaci tu vise nisu objektivni vec ideoloski obojeni kao sto vidis iz clanka.
Ovo. Nema ništa gore kad pročitam izjave nekog stručnjaka koji lupa teške gluposti. Ne znam kako ih nije sramota struke jbt kad su se toliko srozali da istu ideološki oboje.
Baš je ovdje na ovoj temi bilo svakakvih članaka koji su za :-)
E, ali ako nećemo vjerovati stručnjaku, kome ćemo? Forumašu? OK, zašto? Koliko on zna? Kako znamo da stvarno zna ako i tvrdi da zna? Kako znamo da i forumaš nije ideološki obojen?

Čak i kada postoji opasnost da je stručnjak ideološki obojen, za razliku od forumaša, on ipak ima neku stvar za koju se možemo uhvatiti, a to je da je od nekog tijela koje to ocjenjuje dobio potvrdu da je stručnjak. Forumaš to nema, a takođe postoji opasnost da je ideološki obojen.

Tako da, primjera radi, od 10 negativnih osobina kojima ocjenjujemo kome vjerovati, forumaš ima 10 a stručnjak 9. Ili od pozitivnih, forumaš ima 0 a stručnjak ima 1. Naravno, možda forumaš ima više pozitivnih ili manje negativnih, ali kako se to ne može provjeriti, ostaje samo ono šta se može provjeriti a to je da je stručnjak ipak stručnjak, dakle ima potvrdu da zna nešto o onome o čemu govori, dok forumaš piše ono šta misli ali nema potvrdu da išta zna o onome o čemu govori. Nebitno je da li stvarno zna ili ne, problem je u tome da se ne može provjeriti.

Dakle, poenta cijele ove tirade je ta da u situaciji u kojoj jedan forumaš procjenjuje da li da vjeruje stručnjaku uz sve opasnosti da je možda korumpiran ili drugom forumašu uz iste te opasnosti, a pretpostavimo da opcija da ne vjeruje ni jednom ni drugom nije moguća, logičan i racionalan zaključak se sam nameće:

Vjerovati stručnjaku.

Druga stvar je naš poriv da podržimo onoga koji govori ono šta nam se sviđa, vjerujemo onome koji potvrđuje naše stavove ne razmišljajući da li je to tačno ili ne. Ali, to je nešto sasvim drugo.
Ne mogu vjerovati stručnjaku koji govori nešto što se kosi sa razumom. Nisam ja tvrdio da oni nisu stručnjaci, već da su vremenom podlegli određenom ideološkom ludilu (pretpostavljam da su rijetki bili takvi od samog početka), ušli u taj bandwagon i počeli imati stavove koji ga podržavaju pozivajući se istovremeno na struku. To nije samo vezano za feminizam i transgender. Takvih je bilo i za vrijeme nacizma. Za neke je i dr. Zakir Naik stručnjak.
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MorningStar
Posts: 9431
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#11065 Re: Danasnji "feminizam"

Post by MorningStar »

Hakiz wrote: 12/06/2020 21:12
MorningStar wrote: 12/06/2020 20:44
Hakiz wrote: 12/06/2020 20:07 Samo potvrda da, kao u slučaju priče o silovanju, svako ima pravo da se osjeća kako hoće, ali institucionalno, pravno, pojmovi moraju biti jasno i precizno definisani.

Pravno mora buti definisano "šta" je muško a "šta" žensko. Transrodne odobe moraju odlučiti šta žele biti i izvršiti potrebne operacije da zadovolje kriterije određivanja šta su. Ako to ne žele imaju pravne probleme na primjer lična karta ili pasoš ne mogu biti izdani osobi koja se ne opredijeli za spol.

Genitalije du bitan, ali ne moraju biti oflučujući faktor. Možda materica? Ko je ima žensko je, ko je nema muško je bez obzira na genitalije? Ko je nema zbog neke anomalije a po svemu ostalom je žensko, žensko je. Ako je nema a ima muške genitalije, nije žensko. Ako to želi biti, mora ga odstraniti. Itd.
XX XY simple as pasulj :D
Može li se spol po hromozomima odrediti hermafroditima? Imaju li oni matericu?

Da li je zebra crno-bijela ili bijelo-crna?
Clinically, medicine currently describes intersex people as having disorders of sex development,


Moze:
Intersex is in some caused by unusual sex hormones; the unusual hormones may be caused by an atypical set of sex chromosomes. One possible pathophysiologic explanation of intersex in humans is a parthenogenetic division of a haploid ovum into two haploid ova. Upon fertilization of the two ova by two sperm cells (one carrying an X chromosome and the other carrying a Y chromosome), the two fertilized ova are then fused together resulting in a person having dual genitalial, gonadal (ovotestes) and genetic sex. Another common cause of being intersex is the crossing over of the SRY from the Y chromosome to the X chromosome during meiosis. The SRY is then activated in only certain areas, causing development of testes in some areas by beginning a series of events starting with the upregulation of SOX9, and in other areas not being active (causing the growth of ovarian tissues). Thus, testicular and ovarian tissues will both be present in the same individual.
As of 2010, there have been at least 11 reported cases of fertility in true hermaphrodite humans in the scientific literature, with one case of a person with XY-predominant (96%) mosaic giving birth.
Djaba priroda je nemilosrdna - ne interesuju je tvoje “gender studije” kaze ne vazi ti diploma moze za toaleta :D :lol:
Niemand
Posts: 7944
Joined: 31/03/2014 01:55

#11066 Re: Danasnji "feminizam"

Post by Niemand »

dale cooper wrote: 13/06/2020 02:36
Opet...ja nisam rekao ni za Telegraphov članak da je neistina, već da jedan sporni dio, koji sam citirao gore, sadrži određeni desničarski
obojen bias, jer govori da je bivše osoblje bilo u nemogućnosti da rade svoj posao kako treba, jer su bili u strahu da će biti označeni kao
transfobi. Što indirektno sugerira da jedna ustanova kao što je NHS gura pro transgender agendu i prisiljava ljekare na to.

A istina je da je kompletan NHS pod pritiskom sa raznih strana, što stoji u jednom dijelu ovog BBC članka što si ga gore postavila:

Adolescence and childhood is a time when people are developing socially and biologically - a time when young people are identifying with different groups, and with male and female aspects of themselves. There is pressure from the child who is in a distressed state, there is pressure from the family and the peer group and from the pro-trans lobbies - and all of this puts pressure on the clinician who may want to help the individual to resolve their distressed state by going along with a quick solution.
Haj dobro. Dakle, telegrafov sporni dio sadrzi desnicarski obojen bias Former staff said they were unable to properly assess patients over fears they will be branded "transphobic", a koji sugerise da nhs gura transgender agendu, a istina je da je nhs pod pritiskom od raznih strana, kako stoji na bbc-u, jel tako?

I sad, telegraf vs bbc. Telegraf napise da se boje da ce biti etiketirani kao transfobicni, a bbc kako doduse postoji pro-trans pritisak, al u moru drugih.

Samo sto ako pitamo gugl, covjek koji je to izjavio za bbc kaze i ovo:
Over the past five years, there has been a 400 percent rise in referrals to the Tavistock Centre in north London, the only National Health Service (NHS) clinic in Britain that treats children with gender-identity developmental issues. During this period, there also has been an abrupt shift in the composition of the children seeking treatment. Formerly, a significant majority of patients had been young male-to-female children. Now, a significant majority are biological females who claim to have a male gender identity, often following the rapid onset of gender dysphoria in their teenage years.

We do not fully understand what is going on in this complex area, and it is essential to examine the phenomenon systematically and objectively. But this has become difficult in the current environment, as debate is continually being closed down amidst accusations of transphobia. As I argued in a May, 2019 presentation before the House of Lords, this de facto censorship regime is harming children.

Those who advocate an unquestioning “affirmation”-based approach to trans-identified children often will claim that any delay or hesitation in assisting a child’s desired gender transition may cause irreparable psychological harm, and possibly even lead to suicide. They also typically will cite research purporting to prove that a child who transitions can expect higher levels of psychological health and life satisfaction. None of these claims align substantially with any robust data or studies in this area. Nor do they align with the cases I have encountered over decades as a psychotherapist.
....
Almost as soon as I’d joined, I was made aware of the growing controversy over GIDS. A letter had come in from a group of parents complaining that their children had been fast-tracked through GIDS without any serious psychological evaluation. The author of the letter, a mother representing a group of parents, wrote to me in my role as governor, and I replied, circulating copies of that reply to other governors.

Around the same time, Dr. David Bell, a senior consultant at the Tavistock & Portman NHS Trust and a Tavistock governor, was approached by 10 GIDS staff members (amounting to about one-fifth of the London-based service) who had grave ethical concerns similar to those expressed in the parents’ letter—including inadequate clinical assessments, patients being pushed through for early medical interventions, and GIDS’ failure to stand up to pressure from trans activists. As I discovered, this was not the first time such concerns had been raised. Thirteen years previously, psychotherapist Susan Evans (who, full disclosure, is my wife) had raised her own concerns about the thoroughness of the assessment process by some staff.

As a governor of the Tavistock Trust, I personally witnessed attempts by the Trust’s management to dismiss or undermine both Dr. Bell’s report, which he submitted in late 2018, and the letter from parents. This included accusing Dr. Bell of fictionalizing the case studies he described, questioning his credentials, withholding his report from certain governors, and preventing him from attending a meeting to discuss the Medical Director’s response to his report.

I have learned, through long experience with managing clinical areas in the National Health Service, that such efforts to dismiss or discredit serious concerns about a service or clinical approach typically are driven by those seeking to evade accountability and shield their methods from criticism. Such a defensive, self-serving approach would be dangerous and objectionable in any NHS context. It was particularly worrying in the context of a service that treats vulnerable young people in the midst of life-changing, often irreversible decisions that have unknown medical consequences. And so in 2019, I resigned from the Tavistock board of governors, in protest over the Trust’s failure to address the serious concerns that Dr. Bell and parents had raised.
...
“First do no harm,” should be the least we expect from those who treat our children. Yet in 2019, it was revealed that the GIDS program at Tavistock clinic had lowered the age at which it offers children puberty blockers on the basis of a study that—it later was revealed—concluded that “after a year of treatment, ‘a significant increase’ was found in patients who had been born female self-reporting to staff that they ‘deliberately try to hurt or kill myself.’” The fact that Tavistock officials ignored such evidence suggests they have bought into the idea that transition is a goal unto itself, separate from the wellbeing of individual children, who now are being used as pawns in an ideological campaign.

This is the opposite of responsible and caring therapeutic work, which is based on the need to re-establish respectful but loving bonds between mind and body. Such are the norms in every other area of therapeutic practice. And it is high time that the ideologues who have hijacked therapy’s gender subculture be held to account.
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... on'_and_Dr

Ti sad napisi nesto ko "hah, quillette!", to je medjutim isti covjek. Dal on laze, ne mogu znati. Jel poenta mog posta bila tabiranje medija, nije vala.
Hakiz
Posts: 48408
Joined: 30/07/2015 20:01

#11067 Re: Danasnji "feminizam"

Post by Hakiz »

Eto dokle dovede PC.

Kada kažeš da mi malo o tome promislimo, interesne grupe vrisnu "Na giljotinu".

Sve, uklučujući i feminizam i transrodnu situaciju itd dakle sve na ovoj kugli zemaljskoj prije ili poslije postane nekome platforma za osvajanje i praktikovanje moći ili za zaradu i onda se počne vršiti pritisak i na individue i na zakonodavce, na cijelo društvo.

Stvarni ljudi, pojedinci, pa čak i društvo, postanu nebitni.
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dale cooper
Posts: 31383
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#11068 Re: Danasnji "feminizam"

Post by dale cooper »

Niemand wrote: 13/06/2020 06:30
dale cooper wrote: 13/06/2020 02:36
Opet...ja nisam rekao ni za Telegraphov članak da je neistina, već da jedan sporni dio, koji sam citirao gore, sadrži određeni desničarski
obojen bias, jer govori da je bivše osoblje bilo u nemogućnosti da rade svoj posao kako treba, jer su bili u strahu da će biti označeni kao
transfobi. Što indirektno sugerira da jedna ustanova kao što je NHS gura pro transgender agendu i prisiljava ljekare na to.

A istina je da je kompletan NHS pod pritiskom sa raznih strana, što stoji u jednom dijelu ovog BBC članka što si ga gore postavila:

Adolescence and childhood is a time when people are developing socially and biologically - a time when young people are identifying with different groups, and with male and female aspects of themselves. There is pressure from the child who is in a distressed state, there is pressure from the family and the peer group and from the pro-trans lobbies - and all of this puts pressure on the clinician who may want to help the individual to resolve their distressed state by going along with a quick solution.
Haj dobro. Dakle, telegrafov sporni dio sadrzi desnicarski obojen bias Former staff said they were unable to properly assess patients over fears they will be branded "transphobic", a koji sugerise da nhs gura transgender agendu, a istina je da je nhs pod pritiskom od raznih strana, kako stoji na bbc-u, jel tako?

I sad, telegraf vs bbc. Telegraf napise da se boje da ce biti etiketirani kao transfobicni, a bbc kako doduse postoji pro-trans pritisak, al u moru drugih.

Samo sto ako pitamo gugl, covjek koji je to izjavio za bbc kaze i ovo:
Over the past five years, there has been a 400 percent rise in referrals to the Tavistock Centre in north London, the only National Health Service (NHS) clinic in Britain that treats children with gender-identity developmental issues. During this period, there also has been an abrupt shift in the composition of the children seeking treatment. Formerly, a significant majority of patients had been young male-to-female children. Now, a significant majority are biological females who claim to have a male gender identity, often following the rapid onset of gender dysphoria in their teenage years.

We do not fully understand what is going on in this complex area, and it is essential to examine the phenomenon systematically and objectively. But this has become difficult in the current environment, as debate is continually being closed down amidst accusations of transphobia. As I argued in a May, 2019 presentation before the House of Lords, this de facto censorship regime is harming children.

Those who advocate an unquestioning “affirmation”-based approach to trans-identified children often will claim that any delay or hesitation in assisting a child’s desired gender transition may cause irreparable psychological harm, and possibly even lead to suicide. They also typically will cite research purporting to prove that a child who transitions can expect higher levels of psychological health and life satisfaction. None of these claims align substantially with any robust data or studies in this area. Nor do they align with the cases I have encountered over decades as a psychotherapist.
....
Almost as soon as I’d joined, I was made aware of the growing controversy over GIDS. A letter had come in from a group of parents complaining that their children had been fast-tracked through GIDS without any serious psychological evaluation. The author of the letter, a mother representing a group of parents, wrote to me in my role as governor, and I replied, circulating copies of that reply to other governors.

Around the same time, Dr. David Bell, a senior consultant at the Tavistock & Portman NHS Trust and a Tavistock governor, was approached by 10 GIDS staff members (amounting to about one-fifth of the London-based service) who had grave ethical concerns similar to those expressed in the parents’ letter—including inadequate clinical assessments, patients being pushed through for early medical interventions, and GIDS’ failure to stand up to pressure from trans activists. As I discovered, this was not the first time such concerns had been raised. Thirteen years previously, psychotherapist Susan Evans (who, full disclosure, is my wife) had raised her own concerns about the thoroughness of the assessment process by some staff.

As a governor of the Tavistock Trust, I personally witnessed attempts by the Trust’s management to dismiss or undermine both Dr. Bell’s report, which he submitted in late 2018, and the letter from parents. This included accusing Dr. Bell of fictionalizing the case studies he described, questioning his credentials, withholding his report from certain governors, and preventing him from attending a meeting to discuss the Medical Director’s response to his report.

I have learned, through long experience with managing clinical areas in the National Health Service, that such efforts to dismiss or discredit serious concerns about a service or clinical approach typically are driven by those seeking to evade accountability and shield their methods from criticism. Such a defensive, self-serving approach would be dangerous and objectionable in any NHS context. It was particularly worrying in the context of a service that treats vulnerable young people in the midst of life-changing, often irreversible decisions that have unknown medical consequences. And so in 2019, I resigned from the Tavistock board of governors, in protest over the Trust’s failure to address the serious concerns that Dr. Bell and parents had raised.
...
“First do no harm,” should be the least we expect from those who treat our children. Yet in 2019, it was revealed that the GIDS program at Tavistock clinic had lowered the age at which it offers children puberty blockers on the basis of a study that—it later was revealed—concluded that “after a year of treatment, ‘a significant increase’ was found in patients who had been born female self-reporting to staff that they ‘deliberately try to hurt or kill myself.’” The fact that Tavistock officials ignored such evidence suggests they have bought into the idea that transition is a goal unto itself, separate from the wellbeing of individual children, who now are being used as pawns in an ideological campaign.

This is the opposite of responsible and caring therapeutic work, which is based on the need to re-establish respectful but loving bonds between mind and body. Such are the norms in every other area of therapeutic practice. And it is high time that the ideologues who have hijacked therapy’s gender subculture be held to account.
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... on'_and_Dr

Ti sad napisi nesto ko "hah, quillette!", to je medjutim isti covjek. Dal on laze, ne mogu znati. Jel poenta mog posta bila tabiranje medija, nije vala.
Ok, čovjek smatra da je teško objektivno raditi u okruženju gdje se vodi uzavrela debata o ovom pitanju i gdje postoji bojazan da će
vas označiti kao transfobičnog ako se ne slažete. Poštujem. Ali pretpostavljam da taj pritisak dolazi od pro trans grupa, a ne od samog NHS-a?

Činjenica je da je ovaj centar jedini u Engleskoj koji se bavi ovim stvarima i da se svake godine povećava broj djece koji se njima šalje.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... als-double

Almost 1,400 children and young adults were referred to England’s only gender identity clinic for under-18s in the past year, more than double the amount in 2014-15, new data reveals.

The figures, from London’s Tavistock and Portman NHS foundation trust, show that in the year ending March 2016, 1,398 people used the service, compared with 697 the year before.

While there has been an increase of 50% in the number of referrals every subsequent year since 2009-10, this recent 100% increase bucks the trend.

The figures also reveal there were 913 “natal” females and 485 “natal” males referred to the clinic, despite the fact that men are diagnosed with gender dysphoria up to five times more often than women.


Consultant clinical psychologist Dr Bernadette Wren said that in the past more boys tended to come forward than klix, because klix found it easier to be “boyish” in what they wore or how they styled their hair, but that society was now more accepting.

She told BBC Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour: “We live in a world where people alter their bodies, surgically or otherwise, and this freedom is available for people as they get older.

“Maybe we just have to be acknowledging that that is a liberty that people have, that these things are possible, technologically, and people will avail themselves of those things. It’s not really for us to approve or disapprove. What matters is what they make of their lives in the end and whether they lead rewarding lives.

“We’re trying to make sure that nothing happens too precipitately. But in the end, we maybe have to see through this social revolution and see how it transpires.”

There are currently 10 NHS clinics catering to offering gender identity counselling to adults in the UK, but the Tavistock is the only one offering a service for children and adolescents.

Charlie Craggs, 24, a transgender activist who has attended support sessions at the Tavistock , told the Guardian: “I wasn’t surprised at all to see the figures – in fact I’m surprised they’re not higher. In my opinion, the numbers are increasing because awareness is increasing. There’s more visibility and media representation.

“I was one of these children, I was expressing in my own words from as young as four that I was a girl. My parents are incredibly supportive, but sadly trans wasn’t a ‘thing’ back when I was growing up. Had I been growing up now my parents would have taken me to get help from Tavistock straight away. Trans kids have always been around, there just weren’t things like this in place to help them.”
Ovo su bile brojke iz 2016 kada je ovaj gore članak objavljen. Znači ljudima se svake godine povećava broj djece koju trebaju procijeniti
i dati tačnu dijagnozu. Eh sad na to uzmi pritiske od svih onih strana koje su spomenute, od nestrpljive djece i roditelja do pro trans grupa
(svako sa svojom sopstvenom agendom) i jasno je da ova klinika sama ne može podnijeti sav taj teret dijagnoziranja i liječenja ovakvih
pacijenata. To je po mom mišljenju ključni problem ovdje, manjak specijaliziranih ustanova kojima bi se rasteretio sistem i samim time
pristupalo svakom slučaju temeljito i bez žurbe i manjak resursa odnosno novca za finansiranje.
Niemand
Posts: 7944
Joined: 31/03/2014 01:55

#11069 Re: Danasnji "feminizam"

Post by Niemand »

dale cooper wrote: 13/06/2020 13:58 ...
Iz recimo ovog:
As a governor of the Tavistock Trust, I personally witnessed attempts by the Trust’s management to dismiss or undermine both Dr. Bell’s report, which he submitted in late 2018, and the letter from parents. This included accusing Dr. Bell of fictionalizing the case studies he described, questioning his credentials, withholding his report from certain governors, and preventing him from attending a meeting to discuss the Medical Director’s response to his report.
Ili ovog:
“First do no harm,” should be the least we expect from those who treat our children. Yet in 2019, it was revealed that the GIDS program at Tavistock clinic had lowered the age at which it offers children puberty blockers on the basis of a study that—it later was revealed—concluded that “after a year of treatment, ‘a significant increase’ was found in patients who had been born female self-reporting to staff that they ‘deliberately try to hurt or kill myself.’” The fact that Tavistock officials ignored such evidence suggests they have bought into the idea that transition is a goal unto itself, separate from the wellbeing of individual children, who now are being used as pawns in an ideological campaign.
pretpostavljas da pritisak dolazi od pro trans grupa, a ne od samog nhs?

:|
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saint_mirad
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#11070 Re: Danasnji "feminizam"

Post by saint_mirad »

Zašto žensko-ženska prijateljstva manje traju :mrgreen:
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dale cooper
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#11071 Re: Danasnji "feminizam"

Post by dale cooper »

Niemand wrote: 13/06/2020 14:46
dale cooper wrote: 13/06/2020 13:58 ...
Iz recimo ovog:
As a governor of the Tavistock Trust, I personally witnessed attempts by the Trust’s management to dismiss or undermine both Dr. Bell’s report, which he submitted in late 2018, and the letter from parents. This included accusing Dr. Bell of fictionalizing the case studies he described, questioning his credentials, withholding his report from certain governors, and preventing him from attending a meeting to discuss the Medical Director’s response to his report.
Ili ovog:
“First do no harm,” should be the least we expect from those who treat our children. Yet in 2019, it was revealed that the GIDS program at Tavistock clinic had lowered the age at which it offers children puberty blockers on the basis of a study that—it later was revealed—concluded that “after a year of treatment, ‘a significant increase’ was found in patients who had been born female self-reporting to staff that they ‘deliberately try to hurt or kill myself.’” The fact that Tavistock officials ignored such evidence suggests they have bought into the idea that transition is a goal unto itself, separate from the wellbeing of individual children, who now are being used as pawns in an ideological campaign.
pretpostavljas da pritisak dolazi od pro trans grupa, a ne od samog nhs?

:|
Više iz ovog:
Around the same time, Dr. David Bell, a senior consultant at the Tavistock & Portman NHS Trust and a Tavistock governor, was approached by 10 GIDS staff members (amounting to about one-fifth of the London-based service) who had grave ethical concerns similar to those expressed in the parents’ letter—including inadequate clinical assessments, patients being pushed through for early medical interventions, and GIDS’ failure to stand up to pressure from trans activists
A ova prva dva citata govore upravo o lošem menadžmentu kao posljedici pritiska i guranja ogromnog broja pacijenata kroz njihovu
instituciju. Što je dovelo do toga da se slučajevi prebrzo i bez dovoljno pažnje obrađuju da bi se dobili rezultati.
Mislim, da se razumijemo, nije NHS u tome svemu bez greške, ali je već duže vrijeme ta ustanova u krizi zbog toga što su im
resursi rastegnuti do tačke pucanja.
Niemand
Posts: 7944
Joined: 31/03/2014 01:55

#11072 Re: Danasnji "feminizam"

Post by Niemand »

dale cooper wrote: 13/06/2020 15:08
Niemand wrote: 13/06/2020 14:46
dale cooper wrote: 13/06/2020 13:58 ...
Iz recimo ovog:
As a governor of the Tavistock Trust, I personally witnessed attempts by the Trust’s management to dismiss or undermine both Dr. Bell’s report, which he submitted in late 2018, and the letter from parents. This included accusing Dr. Bell of fictionalizing the case studies he described, questioning his credentials, withholding his report from certain governors, and preventing him from attending a meeting to discuss the Medical Director’s response to his report.
Ili ovog:
“First do no harm,” should be the least we expect from those who treat our children. Yet in 2019, it was revealed that the GIDS program at Tavistock clinic had lowered the age at which it offers children puberty blockers on the basis of a study that—it later was revealed—concluded that “after a year of treatment, ‘a significant increase’ was found in patients who had been born female self-reporting to staff that they ‘deliberately try to hurt or kill myself.’” The fact that Tavistock officials ignored such evidence suggests they have bought into the idea that transition is a goal unto itself, separate from the wellbeing of individual children, who now are being used as pawns in an ideological campaign.
pretpostavljas da pritisak dolazi od pro trans grupa, a ne od samog nhs?

:|
Više iz ovog:
Around the same time, Dr. David Bell, a senior consultant at the Tavistock & Portman NHS Trust and a Tavistock governor, was approached by 10 GIDS staff members (amounting to about one-fifth of the London-based service) who had grave ethical concerns similar to those expressed in the parents’ letter—including inadequate clinical assessments, patients being pushed through for early medical interventions, and GIDS’ failure to stand up to pressure from trans activists
A ova prva dva citata govore upravo o lošem menadžmentu kao posljedici pritiska i guranja ogromnog broja pacijenata kroz njihovu
instituciju. Što je dovelo do toga da se slučajevi prebrzo i bez dovoljno pažnje obrađuju da bi se dobili rezultati.
Mislim, da se razumijemo, nije NHS u tome svemu bez greške, ali je već duže vrijeme ta ustanova u krizi zbog toga što su im
resursi rastegnuti do tačke pucanja.
Prva dva citata govore o losem menadzementu kao posljedici pritiska i ogromnog broja pacijenata? Stvarno?
The fact that Tavistock officials ignored such evidence suggests they have bought into the idea that transition is a goal unto itself, separate from the wellbeing of individual children, who now are being used as pawns in an ideological campaign.
Ne govori o tom da su bas oni sada ta pro trans grupa koja gura tu ideologiju?

Sad se vrati na pocetak ove nase price o strucnjacima, naime ti si rekao kako eto roditelji ce logicno konsultovati se sa strucnjacima, na sta sam ti ostavila link, kao najobicniji primjer koliko je vjerovati strucnjacima koji su i sami ideoloski obojeni. I ako kazes da je to jedina ustanova u uk, previse djece, previse pritiska, manjak resursa, vremena, ovog i onog, nisu ni oni bez greske, i sta vec sve, jel i dalje smatras kako eto, konsultovace se sa strucnjacima i sta je sporno sa djecom?

Mozes ti o tom sta bi se i kako dalo popraviti u buducnosti, ali to ne mijenja cinjenicu da ta takva ustanova u krizi je vec tretirala ko zna koliko djece kao ni da je trenutno sta drugacije. To je realnost, necije zelje su nesto drugo.
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dale cooper
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#11073 Re: Danasnji "feminizam"

Post by dale cooper »

Niemand wrote: 13/06/2020 15:35
dale cooper wrote: 13/06/2020 15:08
Niemand wrote: 13/06/2020 14:46

Iz recimo ovog:

Ili ovog:


pretpostavljas da pritisak dolazi od pro trans grupa, a ne od samog nhs?

:|
Više iz ovog:
Around the same time, Dr. David Bell, a senior consultant at the Tavistock & Portman NHS Trust and a Tavistock governor, was approached by 10 GIDS staff members (amounting to about one-fifth of the London-based service) who had grave ethical concerns similar to those expressed in the parents’ letter—including inadequate clinical assessments, patients being pushed through for early medical interventions, and GIDS’ failure to stand up to pressure from trans activists
A ova prva dva citata govore upravo o lošem menadžmentu kao posljedici pritiska i guranja ogromnog broja pacijenata kroz njihovu
instituciju. Što je dovelo do toga da se slučajevi prebrzo i bez dovoljno pažnje obrađuju da bi se dobili rezultati.
Mislim, da se razumijemo, nije NHS u tome svemu bez greške, ali je već duže vrijeme ta ustanova u krizi zbog toga što su im
resursi rastegnuti do tačke pucanja.
Prva dva citata govore o losem menadzementu kao posljedici pritiska i ogromnog broja pacijenata? Stvarno?
The fact that Tavistock officials ignored such evidence suggests they have bought into the idea that transition is a goal unto itself, separate from the wellbeing of individual children, who now are being used as pawns in an ideological campaign.
Ne govori o tom da su bas oni sada ta pro trans grupa koja gura tu ideologiju?

Sad se vrati na pocetak ove nase price o strucnjacima, naime ti si rekao kako eto roditelji ce logicno konsultovati se sa strucnjacima, na sta sam ti ostavila link, kao najobicniji primjer koliko je vjerovati strucnjacima koji su i sami ideoloski obojeni. I ako kazes da je to jedina ustanova u uk, previse djece, previse pritiska, manjak resursa, vremena, ovog i onog, nisu ni oni bez greske, i sta vec sve, jel i dalje smatras kako eto, konsultovace se sa strucnjacima i sta je sporno sa djecom?

Mozes ti o tom sta bi se i kako dalo popraviti u buducnosti, ali to ne mijenja cinjenicu da ta takva ustanova u krizi je vec tretirala ko zna koliko djece kao ni da je trenutno sta drugacije. To je realnost, necije zelje su nesto drugo.
Ne govori.

Dobro, a šta je onda alternativa?
Niemand
Posts: 7944
Joined: 31/03/2014 01:55

#11074 Re: Danasnji "feminizam"

Post by Niemand »

dale cooper wrote: 13/06/2020 15:44
Ne govori.

Dobro, a šta je onda alternativa?
Ne govori? Ozbiljno? Kad procitam citavu ovu pricu, fakat sam fascinirana.

Alternativa je da dijete koje ima problema sa identitom posaljes recimo djecijem psihologu umjesto sto ga posaljes ideoloskim psiholozima i strucnjacima u ideolosku ustanovu u krizi.

Ne ocekujem doduse da shvatis. To je ionako samo desnicarska prica.
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dale cooper
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Location: Twin Peaks/Red Room

#11075 Re: Danasnji "feminizam"

Post by dale cooper »

Niemand wrote: 13/06/2020 15:52
dale cooper wrote: 13/06/2020 15:44
Ne govori.

Dobro, a šta je onda alternativa?
Ne govori? Ozbiljno? Kad procitam citavu ovu pricu, fakat sam fascinirana.

Alternativa je da dijete koje ima problema sa identitom posaljes recimo djecijem psihologu umjesto sto ga posaljes ideoloskim psiholozima i strucnjacima u ideolosku ustanovu u krizi.

Ne ocekujem doduse da shvatis. To je ionako samo desnicarska prica.
Pa čekaj je li ti misliš da se to prvo nije radilo prije nego što su poslani u Tavistock kliniku? Valjda je logično da se prvo obave konsultacije
sa psiholozima prije nego što te se pošalje u specijaliziranu ustanovu ovakvog tipa?

Sa GIDS stranice:
This specialist service is unique to the NHS. We are commissioned to work with children and young people up until their 18th birthday. We have a multidisciplinary staff, with experts in child and adolescent psychiatry, psychology, social work, psychotherapy, family therapy and paediatric endocrinology. We aim to understand the nature of the obstacles in the development of gender identity, and to try minimise their negative influence.

We think that relationships are as important as other factors in contributing to the patient's difficulties. We therefore pay attention in our work to what is happening within the patient's relationship with the family, school and other social agencies. We also understand that young people experiencing difficulties in this area (and their families) may not feel ready to accept help from us directly. In some cases it might also be impractical to attend. In these situations, we make ourselves available to consult with professionals already involved in the case, such as the patient's GP, mental health professionals, teachers or social workers.

Children and young people who have disorders of sex development or intersex conditions and other endocrine conditions may be referred if there are associated concerns with gender identity development. If not, other services are available which local services can refer to.
https://gids.nhs.uk/referrals

Što će reći da se oni uključuju tek onda kada ih ovi drugi pozovu da se uključe ili pošalju pacijenta njima. Logično.
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