Sad mene zanima:) Prijateljstvo?

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Bea_Trix
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#1 Sad mene zanima:) Prijateljstvo?

Post by Bea_Trix » 24/08/2007 20:35

... sta pojedine religije govore o priijateljstvu, odnosu prema ljudima koji ti nisu porodica ali koji su ti bliski, mogucnosti prijateljstva medju razlicitim ljudima, razlicitim religijama? o svemu tome, ne samo o ovom posljednjem.

koliko je vazno biti dobar prema njima, da li je uopce i kolikim se grijehom smatra iznevjeriti povjerenje prijatelja?

uvijek sam od religioznih ljudi slusala o postovanju i ljubavi prema roditeljima, muzu, zeni, djeci, ali nikad o prijateljima...

dobro bi dosli i citati, a ja bih vam bila jako zahvalna, jer su mi vasa misljenja potrebna :)

naravno, odnosi se na sve svjetske religije.


ztluhcs
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#2

Post by ztluhcs » 24/08/2007 20:44

Mene ni¹ta ne pitaj :D Samo sam ti na¹ao - ne proèitah ni¹ta sem conclusion-a :D

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Islam-947/Mu ... riends.htm

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Expert: Abo Muhammed Samir Faid
Date: 3/12/2006
Subject: Muslims and non muslim friends

Question
I was reading the qu'ran and came across a passage saying that muslim shouldnt take christians or jews as friends so my question is can muslims have non muslim friends?

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Answer
Allah Almighty commanded the Muslims to be kind and just with non-Muslims: "Allah forbids you not, With regard to those who Fight you not for (your) Faith Nor drive you out Of your homes, From dealing kindly and justly With them: For Allah loveth Those who are just. (The Noble Quran, 60:8)"

Just because a person might be a non-Muslim it doesn't automatically make him an enemy to the Muslims. Peace-loving and innocent non-Muslims are to be treated with justice and kindness, otherwise the Muslims would be committing a sin and violating Allah Almighty's Holy Commands, "For Allah loveth Those who are just".

"This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time,- when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues if any one rejects faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good). (The Noble Quran, 5:5)"

Allah Almighty made lawful for Muslim men to marry Jewish and Christian women. How is this supposed to agree with the theory that Islam prohibits Muslims from making Jewish and Christian personal friends?



Does Islam really order Muslims to not take Jews, Christians and other non-Muslims as friends?


The sections of this article are:

- Does Islam really order Muslims to not take Jews and Christians
as friends?
- Muslim men are allowed to marry Jewish and Christian women.
- Allah Almighty loves some of the Jews and Christians and will
grant them Paradise.
- Why did Allah Almighty prohibit making alliance with the Jews and
Christians?
- Conclusion.


Let us look at the Noble Verses that address this issue:

"O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors; they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust. (The Noble Quran, 5:51)"

"O ye who believe! Take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport - whether among those who received the Scripture (i.e., the Bible) before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have Faith (indeed). (The Noble Quran, 5:57)"

"Yea, to those who take for friends unbelievers rather than believers: is it honour they seek among them? Nay,- all honour is with God. (The Noble Quran, 4:139)"

"O ye who believe! Turn not (for friendship) To people on whom Is the Wrath of Allah. Of the Hereafter they are Already in despair, just as The Unbelievers are In despair about those (Buried) in graves. (The Noble Quran, 60:13)"

In the above Noble Verses, the Arabic word for "friends" is "Awliyaa", which has four literal meanings: (1) Allies; (2) Friends; and (3) Guardians. In Noble Verse 60:13, the Arabic word used was "tatawallu", which is derived from the root word "Awliyaa".

"Waliy" which is the singular of "Awliyaa" means "Guardian" as your parents were your guardians when you were a kid. So as you can see, the Arabic word "Awliyaa" has different literal meanings.

Important Note: In Noble Verse 60:13 above, Allah Almighty said "la tatawallu qawman", which literally means "take not as allies a tribe (or a community)", which further proves my point that "Awliyaa" in the Noble Verses above is meant for "alliance" and not personal "friendship".

*** There is nothing wrong with developing a personal friendship with a non-Muslim to help him/her understand and appreciate Islam and to ultimately embrace it if they chose to. As clearly shown in the introduction above, Allah Almighty commanded all Muslims to treat with kindness and justice all of the good non-Muslims.

The English translation of the Noble Verses above is not accurate, because the use of the word "friends" is really out of context. The word "Allies" is the correct one, because in all of the Noble Verses above Allah Almighty was talking to the Muslims as a group taking A GROUP OF PEOPLE OR COMMUNITY as "Awliyaa", which fits perfectly with "alliance" than with just personal "friendship" on an individual level.

Another example of inaccurate English translation is the following Noble Verse:

"As to those who turn (For friendship) to Allah, His Messenger, and the (Fellowship of) Believers - it is the Fellowship of Allah that must certainly triumph. (The Noble Quran, 5:56)"

The Arabic word for "Fellowship" of Allah is "hizb", which literally mean "Alliance", as in "Hizbullah" in Lebanon, which means "The Alliance of Allah". Hizbullah are the guerrillas and the warriors that fought the Israelis long battles in southern Lebanon and finally were able to drive them out. Also, the "Northern Alliance" in Afghanistan against the Taliban are called "Hizb Al-shamal".

Hizb is mistranslated as "Fellowship" instead of "Alliance". Noble Verse 5:56 clearly states that Muslims must form their alliances only with Allah Almighty, Prophet Muhammad and the Believers. Any alliance other than Allah Almighty is a losing one. That is exactly what the Alliance with the Jews, Christians and Pagans against fellow Muslims will result in: Eventual loss at this life, and Severe Punishment at the Day of Judgement.

So the Noble Verses above don't suggest that Muslims can not have personal friends with non-Muslims. It suggests that Muslim countries are prohibited from forming alliance with the non-Muslims against other Muslims.

Noble 5:57, however, clearly states that Muslims should avoid having personal friendship with anyone (Muslim or non-Muslim) who disrespects Islam and take it for a "mockery". So the translation of "friends" for "Awliyaa" seem to be a correct and accurate one.

The use of the word "friends" for Noble Verses 5:51 and 4:139 as a translation is ambiguous. It is not clear from the Noble Verses that Allah Almighty meant for "Awliyaa" to be only personal "friends". Certainly Noble Verse 5:56 above clearly shows that Allah Almighty is concerned about the Alliance that Muslims commit themselves to, and not personal friendships.



Muslim men are allowed to marry Jewish and Christian women:

Another proof that the above English translation of the word "friends" is wrong, and the correct word is "Alliance" is, how can Allah Almighty prohibit for any Muslim to form personal friendship with any Jew or Christian, when He the Almighty allowed for Muslim men to have friendly relationships with Jewish and Christian women like they do with Muslim women (without sex before marriage of course) that could lead to marriage?

"This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book [Jews and Christians] is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time,- when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues if any one rejects faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good). (The Noble Quran, 5:5)"

One has to ask himself a very simple question here: How can a Jewish or Christian woman marry a Muslim man without loving him? And how is it possible for this love to happen without prior friendship or even just warm feelings between the Muslim man and the woman?




Allah Almighty loves some of the Jews and Christians and will grant them Paradise:

Another proof that the above English translation of the word "friends" is wrong, and the correct word is "Alliance" is, how can Allah Almighty order Muslims not to have personal friendships with Jews and Christians when He Himself Loves some of them and will Grant them Paradise? This means that some Jews and Christians are actually better in the Sight of Allah Almighty than some Muslims:

"And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book [Jews and Christians], those who believe in God, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to God: They will not sell the Signs of God for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift in account. (The Noble Quran, 3:199)"

"Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book [Jews and Christians] are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. (The Noble Quran, 3:113-114)"

The above Noble Verses clearly speak about the righteous Jews and Christians who believe in Allah Almighty and do righteousness and will have their Great Reward and enter Paradise. Why would a Muslim be prohibited to form a personal friendship with these people from the Jews and Christians whom Allah Almighty loves dearly.




Why did Allah Almighty prohibit making alliance with the Jews and Christians?

When Islam was still fresh and partial, and Muslims were just beginning to understand Islam; Allah Almighty's True Divine Religion, a group of hypocrites from the Jews and Christians tried to deceive the Muslims by pretending to accept Islam and then deserting it later, thus creating the impression that Islam was not a religion worth adopting.

Let us look at Noble Verse 3:72 "A section of the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) say: Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers (Muslims), but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) turn back (from Islam)."

Since then, the Muslims became very wary from the Jews and Christians, because they proved themselves to be hypocrites.





Conclusion:

It is clear that Islam doesn't prohibit personal friendships with Jews and Christians or any other people. Islam however clearly prohibits forming alliance with the Jews, Christians and other non-Muslims. The only alliance a Muslim is allowed to form is with Allah Almighty, our Prophet peace be upon him (when he lived 1400 years ago), and the Muslim Believers.

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#3

Post by Bea_Trix » 24/08/2007 21:00

hvala @ztluhcs, ja zacas procitala.

prvo da citiram ono sto se svima svidja :D
Allah Almighty commanded the Muslims to be kind and just with non-Muslims: "Allah forbids you not, With regard to those who Fight you not for (your) Faith Nor drive you out Of your homes, From dealing kindly and justly With them: For Allah loveth Those who are just. (The Noble Quran, 60:8)"
Just because a person might be a non-Muslim it doesn't automatically make him an enemy to the Muslims. Peace-loving and innocent non-Muslims are to be treated with justice and kindness, otherwise the Muslims would be committing a sin and violating Allah Almighty's Holy Commands, "For Allah loveth Those who are just".
pa onda ono sto je u suprotnosti s tim, a u zakljucku samo nadju sredinu izmedju toga. boldirala sam ono sto mene zanima osobito :D
"O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors; they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust. (The Noble Quran, 5:51)"
"Yea, to those who take for friends unbelievers rather than believers: is it honour they seek among them? Nay,- all honour is with God. (The Noble Quran, 4:139)"
In the above Noble Verses, the Arabic word for "friends" is "Awliyaa", which has four literal meanings: (1) Allies; (2) Friends; and (3) Guardians. In Noble Verse 60:13, the Arabic word used was "tatawallu", which is derived from the root word "Awliyaa".
It is clear that Islam doesn't prohibit personal friendships with Jews and Christians or any other people. Islam however clearly prohibits forming alliance with the Jews, Christians and other non-Muslims. The only alliance a Muslim is allowed to form is with Allah Almighty, our Prophet peace be upon him (when he lived 1400 years ago), and the Muslim Believers.
kaze da muslimani trebaju biti just i kind (pravedni i ljubazni) prema svim dobrim i miroljubivim ljudima. ali - ja sam pravedna i miroljubiva prema teti u prodavnici, prema ljudima koji su u redu na posti sa mnom, dakle, sa prolaznicima i poznanicima. ali prijatelji su mi nesto vise, brate. prijatelj je neko (mislim pravi prijatelj) koga volis... ko ti je osobito drag u najmanju ruku... je li to alliance (savez) ili nije ja ne znam, ali nisam bas sigurna da razumijem.

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#4

Post by ztluhcs » 24/08/2007 21:14

Èitaj

:D:D:D



Is it haram to take non-Muslims as friends?
by Abdul Malik Mujahid

http://www.dawanet.com/concepts/nonmuslimfriend.asp

No. A Muslim is friendly to every one. If dawa is the purpose, then being friendly to everyone is an obligation. A Muslim must care and feel for those whom he is giving dawa to. It is not enough to just stand and give a talk. Rather it requires building relationships to influence others and to genuinely care for those among whom we are living. Prophet Muhammad deeply cared for Makkan Mushriks. Allah's peace and blessings be upon him. He prayed, cried and tried his best to save them from hell-fire. Even his enemies were treated not only with kindness, but, with genuine concern for them. The story of woman who used to throw garbage on the Prophet whenever he went by her house, portrays the picture of a person with deep love for even those who would actively oppose him. One day when the woman became sick, the Prophet not seeing her there became concerned for her and went to visit her1,2. Also, the rights of neighbors as taught to us by the Prophet extend to non Muslims as well. The confusion comes because of the wrong understanding of the words "wali" and "kafir," and the misinterpretation of the ayah:


You who believe, do not enlist kafirs as wali, instead of mumineen (4:144).

The word "wali" is used both in the sense of taking as a friend as well as a protector. The word "friendship" can also be at many different levels and mean different things. It can range from helping someone and treating someone kindly to becoming a "buddy". But in all cases it means a relationship at equal level from both sides. On the other hand "wali" is not usually used in the sense of relationship at an equal level, but, where one has more power than other or acts as a patron. It is in this sense that Allah calls Himself as wali of all believers. And it is in this sense that Muslims are asked not to take their fathers and their brothers as wali if they prefer kufr over Iman:

You who believe, do not take your fathers and your brothers on as wali if they prefer kufr rather than Iman (9:23).

But it does not imply dissolving those relationships. Kufr is an act and not just a label for all non-Muslims. There is a difference between the term "non-Muslim" and "kafir." Kafir is the one who after knowing Islam rejects it. Whereas a non Muslim could be any non-Muslim who has neither studied Islam nor has made a conscious decision of rejecting it as is also evident from the following verse: "Those who disbelieve among the people of the book and among the polytheists… (98:6)." Therefore, Kufr is something that people actively do after knowing the truth. It is they who should neither be taken as protectors nor as friends, but still must be treated justly and in a fitting manner. The Prophet used to keep good relations with non-Muslims, keep their trusts, eat their food and visit them when they were sick.

What is forbidden is the relationship of wilayah with Kafirs (who knowingly reject Islam). But, even in that case there are exceptions. The Prophet sought protection from different leaders of Quraysh when reentering Makkah from the Dawa trip of Taif. He finally received the protection from Mut‘im the chief of Nawfal tribe1,2. Abu Bakr Siddique also returned to Makkah aborting his migration to Habasha when Ibn ad-Dughunnah, a non-Muslim Bedouin chief offered him his protection to stay in Makkah and became his Wali. But when Abu Bakr’s crying while reading Quran outside his home became a dawa attraction, he told Abu Bakr that I did not give you protection to let you change the heart of my people. On that Abu Bakr let him revoke his protection, without compromising his right of dawa.1,2 The Prophet had kind relationship with non Muslims all the time in weakness as well as in strength. Therefore the principle is that hikmah of time and space will determine whose help or protection a Muslim may seek or not seek.

One must be careful, however, in using this provision and it should not be used to justify the unjustifiable. The perspective which I am presenting here deals with individual behavior. It does not deal with international relations of governments which is a relevant but different topic.

wallahu a‘lam bis sawab.

1. Seerat ibne Hisham (Earliest existing source of Seerah).

2. Muhammad: his life based on the earliest sources by Martin Lings.

Further Study:

"The prophet and the people around him" and "The prophet’s message in an alien soil" in Dawa for us and against us — Both are lectures by Khurram Murad available on video from Sound Vision.

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#5

Post by Bea_Trix » 24/08/2007 21:16

ja vec googlala :D

al svasta ima po internetu... zna se :D

al je praksa kraljica znanja :D valjda se i zivi ljudi druze i citaju svoje svete knjige :D

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Bea_Trix
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#6

Post by Bea_Trix » 24/08/2007 21:19

ztluhcs wrote:
dawn_upon_dawn wrote:ja vec googlala :D

al svasta ima po internetu... zna se :D

al je praksa kraljica znanja :D
Zato ja imam samo prijateljice :D Nije mi zabranjeno po pravilu višeg prioriteta :D:D:D
aaa, tako se stvari u praksi rjesavaju znaci :D e taj mi je visi prioritet bas bezze :D

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#7

Post by Ahmmed » 24/08/2007 21:25

dawn_upon_dawn wrote:ja vec googlala :D

al svasta ima po internetu... zna se :D

al je praksa kraljica znanja :D valjda se i zivi ljudi druze i citaju svoje svete knjige :D
Itekako :) Čak se druže i to vrlo dugo i uspješno i oni koji čitaju svoje svete knjige sa onima koji svete knjige ama baš nikako ne čitaju :D


A ako ti nije mrsko, pogledaj i ovo. Sorry, nije na engleskom :D

http://kotor-network.info/papers/Kotor2 ... ibasic.htm

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#8

Post by Bosanac sa dna kace » 24/08/2007 21:36

hocetel da vam ja kazem iz iskustva kako je to u praksi? :D :lol:

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#9

Post by Bea_Trix » 24/08/2007 21:49

nacitah se ja majke mi :D:D zanimljiv, precizan tekst sa jako logicnim argumentima, onako chafirsi govoreci :D

moja praksa: vecina argumenata koji se nalaze u tekstu koji je Ahmmed ne bi bas pili vode kod velikoga broja mladih vjernika danas. vjerujem i da neki od njihovih autoriteta cesto govore o velikodusnosti, dobroti i cestitosti, a mozda i samo mozda o prisnom prijateljstvu sa nemuslimanima odnosno nevjernicima/ateistima, ali da se oni mnogo cesce, kad-tad, priklone radikalnijem misljenju.

proslo je doba kad su mladi sanjali o slobodi, cvijecu u kosi i svijetu bez besmislenih stega. danas, veliki dio mladosti u BiH masta o rigoroznim mjerama i radikalnim principima :roll:
Last edited by Bea_Trix on 18/10/2007 20:40, edited 1 time in total.

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#10

Post by Kwaheri » 25/08/2007 14:31

dawn_upon_dawn wrote:nacitah se ja majke mi :D:D zanimljiv, precizan tekst sa jako logicnim argumentima, onako chafirsi govoreci :D

moja praksa: vecina argumenata koji se nalaze u tekstu koji je Ahmmed ne bi bas pili vode kod velikoga broja mladih vjernika danas. vjerujem i da neki od njihovih autoriteta cesto govore o velikodusnosti, dobroti i cestitosti, a mozda i samo mozda o prisnom prijateljstvu sa nemuslimanima odnosno nevjernicima/ateistima, ali da se oni mnogo cesce, kad-tad, priklone radikalnijem misljenju.

proslo je doba kad su mladi sanjali o slobodi, cvijecu u kosi i svijetu bez besmislenih stega. danas, veliki dio mladosti u BiH masta o rigoroznim mjerama i radikalnim principima :roll:

apsolutno ne ocekujem ni od koga da se slozi sa mnom sasvim, ali TO je moja praksa... :roll:
mislis posljedicu, nikako uzrok...
priklonjavanje radikalnijem stavu - zbog cega?
na koje doba konkretno mislis..ove slobode, cvijece, behar? je li to ona generacija koja je mastarije zavrsila devedesetih? je li ta masta sezala do "cvijece u kosi" iz masovnih grobnica? bez stega - da se radi sve sto se moze bez posljedica?

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#11

Post by Bea_Trix » 25/08/2007 15:16

zena wrote:
dawn_upon_dawn wrote:nacitah se ja majke mi :D:D zanimljiv, precizan tekst sa jako logicnim argumentima, onako chafirsi govoreci :D

moja praksa: vecina argumenata koji se nalaze u tekstu koji je Ahmmed ne bi bas pili vode kod velikoga broja mladih vjernika danas. vjerujem i da neki od njihovih autoriteta cesto govore o velikodusnosti, dobroti i cestitosti, a mozda i samo mozda o prisnom prijateljstvu sa nemuslimanima odnosno nevjernicima/ateistima, ali da se oni mnogo cesce, kad-tad, priklone radikalnijem misljenju.

proslo je doba kad su mladi sanjali o slobodi, cvijecu u kosi i svijetu bez besmislenih stega. danas, veliki dio mladosti u BiH masta o rigoroznim mjerama i radikalnim principima :roll:

apsolutno ne ocekujem ni od koga da se slozi sa mnom sasvim, ali TO je moja praksa... :roll:
mislis posljedicu, nikako uzrok...
priklonjavanje radikalnijem stavu - zbog cega?
na koje doba konkretno mislis..ove slobode, cvijece, behar? je li to ona generacija koja je mastarije zavrsila devedesetih? je li ta masta sezala do "cvijece u kosi" iz masovnih grobnica? bez stega - da se radi sve sto se moze bez posljedica?
ma ne, nisam to mislila. nego imam priliku zbog posla sretati mnogo mladih ljudi, svih profila, religija i uvjerenja. i na povrsini sve djeluje super. malo vremena provedes s njima, onda cujes i vidis koliko su podjele, granice jos uvijek u njihovim glavama. ne kazem da su oni zbog toga krivi ili glupi. to je prosto dio nase stvarnosti.

mislila sam na kompletnu ideologiju koja je pocela negdje sezdesetih, u opoziciji prije svega vijetnamskom ratu, na izgbuljeni, sad vec bezvrijedni utopijski san mladih da zive u svijetu u kojem se ne ratuje ni za sta i ni zbog cega. i oni su tad imali 19, 20... dakle, nisam mislila na prijasnji rezim na balkanu :D nije svijet poceo i zavrsio se u nasoj mahali :D dakle, prije je mladima bilo "cool" pomjerati granice (makar uzaludno, makar shvatili da su u krivu), sanjati o zajednistvu - zato sam to uzela kao primjer.

generacije o kojima govorim se i ne sjecaju rata, bili su ili bebe ili se nisu bili ni rodili, prema tome, ovo nije i ne treba biti politicka tema...

dakle, tema je PRIJATELJSTVO i to ne samo izmedju razlicitih ljudi nego i ljudi pripadnika iste religije. nacin na koji pojedine religije vide suzivot itd. ne znam otkud toliko negativnosti u tvom postu :)

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#12

Post by Kwaheri » 25/08/2007 15:24

dawn_upon_dawn wrote:
zena wrote:
dawn_upon_dawn wrote:nacitah se ja majke mi :D:D zanimljiv, precizan tekst sa jako logicnim argumentima, onako chafirsi govoreci :D

moja praksa: vecina argumenata koji se nalaze u tekstu koji je Ahmmed ne bi bas pili vode kod velikoga broja mladih vjernika danas. vjerujem i da neki od njihovih autoriteta cesto govore o velikodusnosti, dobroti i cestitosti, a mozda i samo mozda o prisnom prijateljstvu sa nemuslimanima odnosno nevjernicima/ateistima, ali da se oni mnogo cesce, kad-tad, priklone radikalnijem misljenju.

proslo je doba kad su mladi sanjali o slobodi, cvijecu u kosi i svijetu bez besmislenih stega. danas, veliki dio mladosti u BiH masta o rigoroznim mjerama i radikalnim principima :roll:

apsolutno ne ocekujem ni od koga da se slozi sa mnom sasvim, ali TO je moja praksa... :roll:
mislis posljedicu, nikako uzrok...
priklonjavanje radikalnijem stavu - zbog cega?
na koje doba konkretno mislis..ove slobode, cvijece, behar? je li to ona generacija koja je mastarije zavrsila devedesetih? je li ta masta sezala do "cvijece u kosi" iz masovnih grobnica? bez stega - da se radi sve sto se moze bez posljedica?
ma ne, nisam to mislila. nego imam priliku zbog posla sretati mnogo mladih ljudi, svih profila, religija i uvjerenja. i na povrsini sve djeluje super. malo vremena provedes s njima, onda cujes i vidis koliko su podjele, granice jos uvijek u njihovim glavama. ne kazem da su oni zbog toga krivi ili glupi. to je prosto dio nase stvarnosti.

mislila sam na kompletnu ideologiju koja je pocela negdje sezdesetih, u opoziciji prije svega vijetnamskom ratu, na izguljeni, sad vec bezvrijedni utopijski san mladih da zive u svijetu u kojem se ne ratuje ni za sta i ni zbog cega. i oni su tad imali 19, 20...

generacije o kojima govorim se i ne sjecaju rata, bili su ili bebe ili se nisu bili ni rodili, prema tome, ovo nije i NECE BITI politicka tema...

dakle, tema je PRIJATELJSTVO i to ne samo izmedju razlicitih ljudi nego i ljudi pripadnika iste religije. nacin na koji pojedine religije vide suzivot itd. ne znam otkud toliko negativnosti u tvom postu :)
nemam prijatelja :D radikal :oops: mama i babo me ne vole... otuda negativnost :oops:

nego, ako pokosimo dovoljno trave ove godine, hocemo li opet imati djecu "sve behara i sve cvjeta" :D

..jesam li dovoljno zlocesta, danas? :D

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#13

Post by Bea_Trix » 25/08/2007 15:27

zena wrote:
nemam prijatelja :D radikal :oops: mama i babo me ne vole... otuda negativnost :oops:

nego, ako pokosimo dovoljno trave ove godine, hocemo li opet imati djecu "sve behara i sve cvjeta" :D

..jesam li dovoljno zlocesta, danas? :D
:kiss: sasvim dovoljno :D

normalno da su nam danas djeca cvijeca smijesna :D a i ideja prijateljstva bez uvijeta... eto, zanimalo me je i zanima me jos, sta je tome uzrok, i buduci da se mnogo ljudi (barem se meni cini) danas okrece religiji, da li ona moze da utjece na njih u tom smislu.

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#14

Post by patrius » 25/08/2007 15:35

od prijateljstva nema veceg dunjaluckog blaga,ma sta o tome mislila bilo koja religija...rijetki su sretnici,poput mene,pocastvovanog,koji su spoznali najvecu zivotnu vrijednost,nesalomljivo i bezuvjetno prijateljstvo,taj ljubavni izvor kom su svi ostali medjuljudski odnosi tek do koljena...

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#15

Post by Kwaheri » 25/08/2007 15:37

dawn_upon_dawn wrote:
zena wrote:
nemam prijatelja :D radikal :oops: mama i babo me ne vole... otuda negativnost :oops:

nego, ako pokosimo dovoljno trave ove godine, hocemo li opet imati djecu "sve behara i sve cvjeta" :D

..jesam li dovoljno zlocesta, danas? :D
:kiss: sasvim dovoljno :D

normalno da su nam danas djeca cvijeca smijesna :D a i ideja prijateljstva bez uvijeta... eto, zanimalo me je i zanima me jos, sta je tome uzrok, i buduci da se mnogo ljudi (barem se meni cini) danas okrece religiji, da li ona moze da utjece na njih u tom smislu.
ma nisu oni meni smjesni.. dok ne zapalim :D :oops: neki fini mirisljavi cvijet... :oops:

p.s.
na temu... zdrava djeca nama trebaju, fizicki i mentalno :) imamo bolesno okruzenje..tesko nam je, ali vjerujem da religija moze pozitivno utjecati na njih...

"mama, vidi mene.." :D

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#16

Post by patrius » 25/08/2007 15:49

pametni ljudi mogu posvetiti religiju,idioti ju,pak,kao sto je kod nas slucaj,mogu samo ogaditi,te naparviti od nje cirkus kao sto to Mustafa,a i jos neki iz drugih tabora,svesrdno cine...religija je stvar izbora,mentalni sklop pojedinca je urodjen,stoga je sve ovo danas kod nas i moguce,da nam kauboji pronalaze piramide,a da ih "bozji cuvari",ti ljuti faraonski neprijatelji,u tome orgazmicno podrzavaju...

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#17

Post by venera888 » 25/08/2007 16:12

U Islamu se kaze "neces biti vjernik dok svom bratu(komsiji) ne budes zelio sto i sebi"

medjutim ovo se odnosi samo na muslimane

islam zahtjeva da se nemuslimani postuju i stite od neprijatelja(ako su pod njihovom vlasti) ali se zabranjuje da se s njima prijateljuje(ovo je stav vecine uleme)

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#18

Post by patrius » 25/08/2007 16:18

venera888 wrote:U Islamu se kaze "neces biti vjernik dok svom bratu(komsiji) ne budes zelio sto i sebi"

medjutim ovo se odnosi samo na muslimane

islam zahtjeva da se nemuslimani postuju i stite od neprijatelja(ako su pod njihovom vlasti) ali se zabranjuje da se s njima prijateljuje(ovo je stav vecine uleme)
evo krasnog primjera ogranicenosti religioznih tumacenja:da bih nekog stitio,moram ga najprije postovati,a da bih ga postovao,moram najprije u njemu vidjeti razloge za to,tj. ljudske kvalitete koji bi me potakli na to da ga smatram prijateljem...a ovo "pod njihovom vlascu",podsjeca me na mracna vremena ljudske historije :?

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#19

Post by Bea_Trix » 25/08/2007 16:44

ponavljam, tema nije politicka, pa cu samo upitati @veneru:

koji to tvoji poznanici ateisti/nevjernici stoje tebi "na vlasti" i kada i kako se ti danas u ovoj zemlji mozes naci u situaciji da "stitis" i "branis" nekog nevjernika, kako rece patrius, a da mu nisi prijateljica?

jer, tema je prijateljstvo, dakle bliski odnosi medju ljudima, a to sto ti opisujes je neslicno bilo kojoj zivotnoj situaciji...
Last edited by Bea_Trix on 18/10/2007 20:41, edited 1 time in total.

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#20

Post by fia » 25/08/2007 17:33

dio jednog javnog predavanja na temu "Pravo prijateljstvo s Bogom i sa bližnjima"

"Problem je, da riječ prijatelj se često neopravdano koristi. U stvarnosti se najčešće radi o običnom poznaniku a ponekad o osobi za koju ne možemo reći niti da je poznajemo. I svi dobro znamo da prijatelj i poznanik nije isto.
Prijatelj je čovjek prema kojem osjećam naklonost i poštovanje. Uzajamno se radujemo međusobnoj bliskosti i druženju.
Jedan rječnik definira prijatelja kao nekog tko :¨…je vezan za drugog čovjeka, zato jer osjeća naklonost prema njemu… Bliski prijatelji s radošću ispunjavaju obaveze koje proizlaze iz jake osobne povezanosti-smatrajući to pogodnom prilikom za dokazivanje iskrenosti svog prijateljstva…¨
Onaj, tko traži prijateljstvo bez odgovornosti, traži u stvari obične poznanike, ali prijatelje neće pronaći.
Definicija poznanika : To je osoba sa kojom održavamo međusobne odnose ali prema kojoj ne gajimo jaku osobnu naklonost…
Što je temelj pravog prijateljstva?
LJUBAV, koja neće iznevjeriti bez obzira na okolnosti, je glavno obilježje pravog prijateljstva.
Prijatelj -možeš se na njega oslonit u svemu. On zna tvoje tajne. Kada ti je teško,uvijek je uz tebe.
Pravi prijatelji su dragocjena bića koja se rijetko pojavljuju u našoj blizini. Zato ih moramo tražiti vrlo pažljivo.
Isus / u Bibliji/ je uvijek koristio usporedbe govoreći ljudima koji su ga slušali ali je svojim učenicima objašnjavao značenje tih usporedbi. Otkrivao im je duhovne tajne. Isus i njegovi učenici su među sobom gajili iskreno prijateljstvo. Jedna stvar ih je posebno zbližila. Isus ih je jednom prilikom pohvalio riječima: ¨Vi ste ti, koji ste opstali sa mnom u mojim iskušenjima.¨
Da, njihovo prijateljstvo je opstalo u ekstremnim iskušenjima i trajat će vječno. Isus je bio spreman i umrijeti za njih.
Bez povjerenja ne može dugo trajat niti jedan odnos-niti između ljudi samih, niti među ljudima i Bogom. Povjerenje je temelj svakog prijateljstva
U knjizi DOBRI LJUDI U VRIJEME ZLA čiji je autor Svjetlane Broz, u kojoj se opisuju nedavni događaji iz rata u Bosni i Hercegovini, ipak se govori o nekim ljudima koji su usprkos ratnim strahotama uspjeli ostat pravi ljudi.
Jedan od očitih svjedoka ratnih strahota iz te knjige tvrdi: ¨U ratu se pokazalo da je taj tko je čovjek bio - čovjek i ostao. Samo, uvijek biti pravi čovjek je vrlo teško…
Pravi kršćanin se ponaša prijateljski prema svim ljudima. Bez obzira na njihova vjerska ili politička uvjerenja. Bez obzira vlada li mir ili bjesni rat.
Neutralan je, što znači da ne prihvata nazore svijeta, ali isto tako nikome ne nameće svoje.
Kada nastane nekakva krizna situacija, Kršćanin u prvom redu pomaže svojoj braći u vjeri.
Pritom, svakako, ne zaboravlja ni ostale"

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#21

Post by danas » 26/08/2007 02:03

venera888 wrote:
islam zahtjeva da se nemuslimani postuju i stite od neprijatelja(ako su pod njihovom vlasti) ali se zabranjuje da se s njima prijateljuje (ovo je stav vecine uleme)
:kravata: :kravata: :kravata: :D

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#22

Post by stranac_ » 26/08/2007 02:08

5.51. O vjernici, ne uzimajte za zastitnike Jevreje i krscane! Oni su sami sebi zastitnici! A njihov je onaj medju vama koji ih za zastitnike prihvati.

5.52. Zato ti vidis one cija su srca bolesna kako se zure da s njima prijateljstvo sklope, govoreci: "Bojimo se da nas kakva nevolje ne zadesi." A Allah ce sigurno pobjedu ili nesto drugo od sebe dati, pa ce se oni zbog onoga sto su u dusama svojim krili kajati,

5.53. a oni koji vjeruju reci ce: "Zar su to oni koji su se zaklinjali Allahom, svojom najtezom zakletvom, da su zaista s vama?" Djela njihova bice ponistena, i oni ce nastradati.

5.54. O vjernici, ako neko od vas od vjere svoje otpadne, - pa, Allah ce sigurno mjesto njih dovesti ljude koje On voli i koji Njega vole, prema vjernicima ponizne, a prema nevjernicima ponosite

5.55. Vasi zastitnici su samo Allah i Poslanik Njegov i vjernici koji ponizno molitvu obavljaju i zekat daju.

5.57. O vjernici, ne prijateljujte s onima koji vjeru vasu za podsmijeh i zabavu uzimaju, bili to oni kojima je data Knjiga prije vas, ili bili mnogobosci, - i Allaha se bojte ako ste vjernici -

5.58. I kad pozivate na molitvu i to za podsmijeh i zabavu uzimaju, zato sto su oni ljudi koji ne shvacaju.


„O vjernici, ne uzimajte nevjernike za prijatelje umjesto vjernika! Zar hoćete da protivu sebe Allahu date jasan i otvoren dokaz!“ (4:144.)

„O vjernici, za prisne prijatelje uzimajte samo svoje, ostali vam samo propast žele: jedva čekaju da muka dopadnete, mržnja izbija iz njihovih ustiju, a još je gore ono što njihova prsa kriju. Mi vam iznosimo dokaze, ako pameti imate.“ (3:118)

___________________________________

36:43. oholost na Zemlji i ružno spletkarenje - a spletke će pogoditi upravo o­ne koji se njima služe. Zar o­ni mogu očekivati nešto drugo već o­no što je zadesilo narode drevne? U Allahovim zakonima ti nikad nećeš nači promjene, u Allahovim zakonima ti nećeš naći odstupanja.

36:44. Zašto o­ni ne putuju po svijetu da vide kako su završili o­ni prije njih, koji su bili jači od njih? - Allahu ne može ništa umaći ni na nebesima ni na Zemlji; o­n, uistinu, sve zna i sve može.

36:45. Da Allah kažnjava ljude prema o­nome što zasluže, ništa živo na površini Zemljinoj ne bi ostavio; ali, o­n ih ostavlja do roka određenog, i kad im rok dođe - pa Allah dobro zna robove Svoje.

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#23

Post by Bea_Trix » 26/08/2007 02:42

stranac_ wrote:
„O vjernici, ne uzimajte nevjernike za prijatelje umjesto vjernika! Zar hoćete da protivu sebe Allahu date jasan i otvoren dokaz!“ (4:144.)

„O vjernici, za prisne prijatelje uzimajte samo svoje, ostali vam samo propast žele: jedva čekaju da muka dopadnete, mržnja izbija iz njihovih ustiju, a još je gore ono što njihova prsa kriju. Mi vam iznosimo dokaze, ako pameti imate.“ (3:118)
i bas svi ljudi koji ne vjeruju jedva cekaju da vide muke vjernika i svi su zli? ne treba me pogresno shvatiti, ne polemiziram ja sa napisanim u Kur'anu, nego sa nacinom na koji ljudi ovo koriste kao oruzje. naci ces citate u kojima pise ponesto i o dobrim i miroljubivim nevjernicima. znaci da oni postoje, sto automatski balansira i ove navode. istina je jednostavna: vjernici, ne prijateljujte sa ljudima koji vam zele zlo. valjda si svjestan da se ovaj citat odnosi na nevjernike koji JESU LOSI LJUDI?

i kakvo je to uopce prijateljstvo u kojem neko nekom zeli zlo? to nije prijateljstvo ako sam ja sa tobom da bih ti podvaljivala. ja govorim o situacijama od kojih vrli teoreticari tako rado bjeze, u kojima je covjek spreman voljeti drugog covjeka bez obzira na sve, a kad ga volis, postujes i njegov izbor - izbor Boga kojeg ce stovati.

i niko tu ne bira nikoga UMJESTO nikoga; prvi je citat vrlo jasan: ne treba unaprijed preferirati skupinu ljudi sa predrasudom: bas necu svoje nego tudje.

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#24

Post by stranac_ » 26/08/2007 02:58

Postoji razlika izmedju lijepog ophodjenja i ljubaznosti na jednoj strani i prijateljovanja na drugoj strani...

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#25

Post by Bea_Trix » 26/08/2007 03:02

stranac_ wrote:Postoji razlika izmedju lijepog ophodjenja i ljubaznosti na jednoj strani i prijateljovanja na drugoj strani...
nisam ni rekla da ne postoji, zapravo, da si procitao temu od pocetka vidio bi da sam napravila distinkciju izmedju ljubaznosti prema poznanicima i ljubavi prema prijatelju. imas i onaj Ahmmedov link, tamo se isto ne govori samo o ljubaznosti.
Last edited by Bea_Trix on 26/08/2007 03:17, edited 1 time in total.

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