NASTANAK I RAZVOJ LITERATURE HADISA

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forza milan
Posts: 373
Joined: 12/07/2006 16:02

#51

Post by forza milan » 10/12/2006 23:00

@KGKG

kad pomislim da je bosnjo otiso do dna i da ne moze vise bit gori, da je na derdze-i hajvani onda se pojavis ti i pokazes kako se mora izmislit jos neka druga, gora deredza
stvarno si kriza
veze o islamu nemas
nije mi samo jasno kakav imas motiv da pises ovako duge i postove
sta stoji kao cilj pa da ti nije mrsko trosit toliko vremena na ovakve gluposti

mora da radis za neke ljude koji su poput onog jasmina iz tuzle sto kaze da je mehdi i sl.
ili mozda ti pripremas sebi teren za slicne stvari

ali si ''nasla crkvu'' samo nisi vrata :-)
dosla si ovdje medju komunjare da pricas o hadisima

ja imam maximalno negativan stav o komunjarama ali si ti i njih zajebala
fakat si lik

dijagnoza: psihijatru sto prije

sreca ti je nisi sama, ima jos dosta forumasa koji bi morali s tobom


KOGOD KADGOD
Posts: 789
Joined: 17/11/2006 02:53

#52

Post by KOGOD KADGOD » 11/12/2006 10:49

forza milan wrote:@KGKG

kad pomislim da je bosnjo otiso do dna i da ne moze vise bit gori, da je na derdze-i hajvani onda se pojavis ti i pokazes kako se mora izmislit jos neka druga, gora deredza
stvarno si kriza
veze o islamu nemas
nije mi samo jasno kakav imas motiv da pises ovako duge i postove
sta stoji kao cilj pa da ti nije mrsko trosit toliko vremena na ovakve gluposti

mora da radis za neke ljude koji su poput onog jasmina iz tuzle sto kaze da je mehdi i sl.
ili mozda ti pripremas sebi teren za slicne stvari

ali si ''nasla crkvu'' samo nisi vrata :-)
dosla si ovdje medju komunjare da pricas o hadisima

ja imam maximalno negativan stav o komunjarama ali si ti i njih zajebala
fakat si lik

dijagnoza: psihijatru sto prije

sreca ti je nisi sama, ima jos dosta forumasa koji bi morali s tobom
aha... bas to... "pripremam teren" da bas tebe proganjam, pratim te svuda... 8) woman in black... pazi se... iza svakog coska vrebaju potplaceni sa zadatkom da uklone nikogovice .... buuuhhhaaa... sve je to konspiracija protiv tebe...


estaghfirullah we etubu ilejh...

pa tako neko paranoidan bi zaista trebao psihijatra (moze pomoci, ako Bog da, mozda i "glasovi" popuste, zao mi pravo, izvini sto se nasalih gore, mora da je tesko zivjeti u takvoj paranoji)... da ti dragi Bog pomogne i svima koji tako misle, ko zna sta si predurao pa si na ivici razumnog rezonovanja...

Boze sacuvaj nas ovakve bolesne mrznje prema svima sto imaju drugacije misljenje... pa jos toliko nisko propade da vise vjernika od nevjernika mrzi

(mada se ne bi trebao niko mrziti jer i onom nevjerniku mozda Bog okrene srce pa se pokaje...)

mislim, treba biti oprezan jer ima nekih koji imaju neki nizak cilj, ali svako zdravog razuma ih moze raspoznati po njihovoj tendenciji da se "slazu" sa jednima (mozda da k'o fol slazu se sa hanefi) a protiv svih drugih "huskaju" narod. oni nece otvoreno reci sta misle, nego ce svaom "niz dlaku" da mu se pretstavi k'o "isti, jednakog misljenja, pa onda "ovi su kjafiri, oni su munafici...itd. niti kome kazem da mora da se sa mnom slozi niti cu se sloziti sa necim sto znam da nije ispravno IZ ISKUSTVA. ima svako pravo na svoj stav.

meni je vaznije sta Bog za o meni nego sta cijeli svijet "misli" o meni, narocito oni koji ne shvataju ni dio onoga o cemu govorim.

ali ovakvo paranoidno gledanje (stvarno bolesno), na necije misljenje koje OCITO nije nikome "uz dlaku" nego jednostavno razumno preispitivanje tradicija koje su se stoljecima "na kasiku" davale...

pa koliko nam puta Bog ukazuje na to da ne trebamo da slijedimo nesto samo zato sto "smo nase pretke nasli da tako rade/vjeruju pa i mi" cak i kada su u krivu?

mogu samo da kazem da je ZALOSNO sto takvi postoje, ali, imaju svi pravo da zive i da misle kako hoce pa i ti i takvi...

neka ti je Bog na pomoci, i da Bog da da si zdrav, razuman i pametan i radi sebe i radi drugih...

novajlija
Posts: 41
Joined: 21/11/2006 20:09
Location: BiH

#53

Post by novajlija » 11/12/2006 20:16

kako moze biti "sekta" neko grupa koja se zalaze za UKIDANJE sektasenja i za JEDNU vjeru ISLAM zasnovanu na Qur'anu?...
Koje ti samo supljake prosipas ovdje! Znaci, hajmo svi se drzati Kur´ana kako ga mi razumijemo i imati cemo jednu vjeru?! Pa bas tada bi imala onoliko vjera koliko ima i ljudi (muslimana), jer bi svako Kur´an tumacio na svoj nacin.



Evo jedan hadis koji govori o tumacenju ajeta po svome hiru:

Kaze Poslanik s.a.v.s [b]:“ Ko komentarise Kuran po svom reju( misljenju ili hiru) neka sebi pripremi mjesto u Vatri[/b].“ (Tirmizi, Ebu Davud i nesaija)

A prvi halifa Ebu Bekr je rekao:[b]"Koja bi me zemlja drzala, a koje nebo pokrivalo kada bi rekao nešto o Kuranu po svom nahodjenju.“ [/b]( Tajne ucenja Kurana str 101, EL-Gazali)


A ovo je Poslanik a.s. rekao za jednu drugu skupinu ljudi (Kur´anijjune, kako ih je on a.s. nazvao u jednom vjerodostojnom hadisu):

"Data mi je Knjiga (Kur´an) i ono slicno njoj (sunnet,hadis); gotovo da covjek naslonjen na svojoj naslonjaci kaze: "Drzite se ovoga Kur´ana, pa ono sto u njemu nadjete od halala, a to halalite, a ono sto u njemu nadjete od harama, pa to oharamite." (Ahmed, Ebu Davud, Hakim, sahih-vjerodostojan)

"Na dan Hajbera Poslanik a.s. je oharamio neke stvari, pa je zatim rekao: "Gotovo da me neko od vas uvodi u laz, naslonjen, govoreci mojim govorom, pa kaze:"Izmedju nas i vas je Allahova knjiga, pa ono sto u njoj nadjemo od halala, to smo ohalalili, a ono sto u njoj nadjemo od harama, to smo oharamili." A zaista, ono sto je oharamio Allahov Poslanik a.s. jeste poput onoga sto je oharamio Allah" (Tirmizi-sahih)

I za kraj, jos jedan hadis (da upotpuni temu):

"Na oprosnom Hadzdzu (znaci pred kraj svoga zivota, moj komentar) Poslanik a.s. je izmedju ostalog rekao: "Ostavio sam vam nesto, ako ga se budete pridrzavali, necete nikada zalutati: Allahovu knjigu i sunnet Njegova Poslanika." (Hakim-sahih)


ps.: Naravno, ovi hadisi su postirani za one koji priznaju hadis kao izvor vjere

forza milan
Posts: 373
Joined: 12/07/2006 16:02

#54

Post by forza milan » 11/12/2006 23:14

KOGOD KADGOD wrote:
forza milan wrote:@KGKG

kad pomislim da je bosnjo otiso do dna i da ne moze vise bit gori, da je na derdze-i hajvani onda se pojavis ti i pokazes kako se mora izmislit jos neka druga, gora deredza
stvarno si kriza
veze o islamu nemas
nije mi samo jasno kakav imas motiv da pises ovako duge i postove
sta stoji kao cilj pa da ti nije mrsko trosit toliko vremena na ovakve gluposti

mora da radis za neke ljude koji su poput onog jasmina iz tuzle sto kaze da je mehdi i sl.
ili mozda ti pripremas sebi teren za slicne stvari

ali si ''nasla crkvu'' samo nisi vrata :-)
dosla si ovdje medju komunjare da pricas o hadisima

ja imam maximalno negativan stav o komunjarama ali si ti i njih zajebala
fakat si lik

dijagnoza: psihijatru sto prije

sreca ti je nisi sama, ima jos dosta forumasa koji bi morali s tobom
aha... bas to... "pripremam teren" da bas tebe proganjam, pratim te svuda... 8) woman in black... pazi se... iza svakog coska vrebaju potplaceni sa zadatkom da uklone nikogovice .... buuuhhhaaa... sve je to konspiracija protiv tebe...


estaghfirullah we etubu ilejh...

pa tako neko paranoidan bi zaista trebao psihijatra (moze pomoci, ako Bog da, mozda i "glasovi" popuste, zao mi pravo, izvini sto se nasalih gore, mora da je tesko zivjeti u takvoj paranoji)... da ti dragi Bog pomogne i svima koji tako misle, ko zna sta si predurao pa si na ivici razumnog rezonovanja...

Boze sacuvaj nas ovakve bolesne mrznje prema svima sto imaju drugacije misljenje... pa jos toliko nisko propade da vise vjernika od nevjernika mrzi

(mada se ne bi trebao niko mrziti jer i onom nevjerniku mozda Bog okrene srce pa se pokaje...)

mislim, treba biti oprezan jer ima nekih koji imaju neki nizak cilj, ali svako zdravog razuma ih moze raspoznati po njihovoj tendenciji da se "slazu" sa jednima (mozda da k'o fol slazu se sa hanefi) a protiv svih drugih "huskaju" narod. oni nece otvoreno reci sta misle, nego ce svaom "niz dlaku" da mu se pretstavi k'o "isti, jednakog misljenja, pa onda "ovi su kjafiri, oni su munafici...itd. niti kome kazem da mora da se sa mnom slozi niti cu se sloziti sa necim sto znam da nije ispravno IZ ISKUSTVA. ima svako pravo na svoj stav.

meni je vaznije sta Bog za o meni nego sta cijeli svijet "misli" o meni, narocito oni koji ne shvataju ni dio onoga o cemu govorim.

ali ovakvo paranoidno gledanje (stvarno bolesno), na necije misljenje koje OCITO nije nikome "uz dlaku" nego jednostavno razumno preispitivanje tradicija koje su se stoljecima "na kasiku" davale...

pa koliko nam puta Bog ukazuje na to da ne trebamo da slijedimo nesto samo zato sto "smo nase pretke nasli da tako rade/vjeruju pa i mi" cak i kada su u krivu?

mogu samo da kazem da je ZALOSNO sto takvi postoje, ali, imaju svi pravo da zive i da misle kako hoce pa i ti i takvi...

neka ti je Bog na pomoci, i da Bog da da si zdrav, razuman i pametan i radi sebe i radi drugih...
drugacijem se odgovoru nisam ni nadao
tirada koja nema ni glave ni repa, samo glupost na glupost
samo cu ti reci da nigdje nisam spomenuo mrznju i ne znam odakle ti to
tesko onima koji su takvi, koji mrznju pronalaze i tamo gdje se ni iz daleka ne spominje
fakat ti je tesko zivjet
stoga opet ponavljam preporuku: trkni malo do psihijatra

i iz toga koliko vremena trosis na ove gluposti sto se zovu forum (priznajem da nije lahko u jednom danu napisat 50-ak stranica i to prvorazrednih bljuvotina i gluposti) vidi se da si neka psiha, pegla i jako teska osoba

ja nikoga ne mrzim, samo zali
m takve kao ti

rasprava je zavrsena sto se mene tice
siroki ti puti

KOGOD KADGOD
Posts: 789
Joined: 17/11/2006 02:53

#55

Post by KOGOD KADGOD » 12/12/2006 03:27

forza milan wrote:
KOGOD KADGOD wrote:
forza milan wrote:@KGKG

kad pomislim da je bosnjo otiso do dna i da ne moze vise bit gori, da je na derdze-i hajvani onda se pojavis ti i pokazes kako se mora izmislit jos neka druga, gora deredza
stvarno si kriza
veze o islamu nemas
nije mi samo jasno kakav imas motiv da pises ovako duge i postove
sta stoji kao cilj pa da ti nije mrsko trosit toliko vremena na ovakve gluposti

mora da radis za neke ljude koji su poput onog jasmina iz tuzle sto kaze da je mehdi i sl.
ili mozda ti pripremas sebi teren za slicne stvari

ali si ''nasla crkvu'' samo nisi vrata :-)
dosla si ovdje medju komunjare da pricas o hadisima

ja imam maximalno negativan stav o komunjarama ali si ti i njih zajebala
fakat si lik

dijagnoza: psihijatru sto prije

sreca ti je nisi sama, ima jos dosta forumasa koji bi morali s tobom
aha... bas to... "pripremam teren" da bas tebe proganjam, pratim te svuda... 8) woman in black... pazi se... iza svakog coska vrebaju potplaceni sa zadatkom da uklone nikogovice .... buuuhhhaaa... sve je to konspiracija protiv tebe...


estaghfirullah we etubu ilejh...

pa tako neko paranoidan bi zaista trebao psihijatra (moze pomoci, ako Bog da, mozda i "glasovi" popuste, zao mi pravo, izvini sto se nasalih gore, mora da je tesko zivjeti u takvoj paranoji)... da ti dragi Bog pomogne i svima koji tako misle, ko zna sta si predurao pa si na ivici razumnog rezonovanja...

Boze sacuvaj nas ovakve bolesne mrznje prema svima sto imaju drugacije misljenje... pa jos toliko nisko propade da vise vjernika od nevjernika mrzi

(mada se ne bi trebao niko mrziti jer i onom nevjerniku mozda Bog okrene srce pa se pokaje...)

mislim, treba biti oprezan jer ima nekih koji imaju neki nizak cilj, ali svako zdravog razuma ih moze raspoznati po njihovoj tendenciji da se "slazu" sa jednima (mozda da k'o fol slazu se sa hanefi) a protiv svih drugih "huskaju" narod. oni nece otvoreno reci sta misle, nego ce svaom "niz dlaku" da mu se pretstavi k'o "isti, jednakog misljenja, pa onda "ovi su kjafiri, oni su munafici...itd. niti kome kazem da mora da se sa mnom slozi niti cu se sloziti sa necim sto znam da nije ispravno IZ ISKUSTVA. ima svako pravo na svoj stav.

meni je vaznije sta Bog za o meni nego sta cijeli svijet "misli" o meni, narocito oni koji ne shvataju ni dio onoga o cemu govorim.

ali ovakvo paranoidno gledanje (stvarno bolesno), na necije misljenje koje OCITO nije nikome "uz dlaku" nego jednostavno razumno preispitivanje tradicija koje su se stoljecima "na kasiku" davale...

pa koliko nam puta Bog ukazuje na to da ne trebamo da slijedimo nesto samo zato sto "smo nase pretke nasli da tako rade/vjeruju pa i mi" cak i kada su u krivu?

mogu samo da kazem da je ZALOSNO sto takvi postoje, ali, imaju svi pravo da zive i da misle kako hoce pa i ti i takvi...

neka ti je Bog na pomoci, i da Bog da da si zdrav, razuman i pametan i radi sebe i radi drugih...
drugacijem se odgovoru nisam ni nadao
tirada koja nema ni glave ni repa, samo glupost na glupost
samo cu ti reci da nigdje nisam spomenuo mrznju i ne znam odakle ti to
tesko onima koji su takvi, koji mrznju pronalaze i tamo gdje se ni iz daleka ne spominje
fakat ti je tesko zivjet
stoga opet ponavljam preporuku: trkni malo do psihijatra

i iz toga koliko vremena trosis na ove gluposti sto se zovu forum (priznajem da nije lahko u jednom danu napisat 50-ak stranica i to prvorazrednih bljuvotina i gluposti) vidi se da si neka psiha, pegla i jako teska osoba

ja nikoga ne mrzim, samo zali
m takve kao ti

rasprava je zavrsena sto se mene tice
siroki ti puti
Sto se mene tice, nikad nije ni pocela :roll: ja nisam komentarisala na tvoj komentar koji se nije mene ticao...

slobodan si da ostavis svoj post o tome sta ti mislis (ako imas misljenje) o nastanku i razvoju literature hadisa, da li se lsazes ili ne sa nekim drugim komentarima nije predmet rasprave. Problem je sto neki ne znaju kako da iraze svoje i postuju misljenja drugih a da ne pocnu osobne uvrede, pa i "dijagnoze" za koje nisu ni blizu kvalifikovani :shock:

KOGOD KADGOD
Posts: 789
Joined: 17/11/2006 02:53

#56

Post by KOGOD KADGOD » 12/12/2006 03:40

DAKLE, IMAMO DO SADA SLIJEDECE STAVOVE:

1. - DA JE HADIS "DIO OBJAVE" I DIO VJERE ISLAMA, I DA BEZ HADISA NE BI BILO NI ISLAMA, TREBA SAMO VJEROVATI A NE PROVJERAVATI.

2. - DA JE HADIS NASTAO NAKON OBJAVE ALI DA SE MOZE "DOKAZATI" I "PROVJERITI" VJERODOSTOJNOST RAZLICITIH HADISA , I DA JE NEOPHODNO SLIJEDITI HADIS I KORISTITI SE NJIMA KAO IZVOR VJERSKIH ZAKONA JER KO NE SLIJEDI HADIS TAJ NE SLIJEDI NI MUHAMMEDA (BEZ OBZIRA AKO TA OSOBA SLIJEDI QUR'AN I PRIDRZAVA SE ZABRANA I DUZNOSTI U NJEMU NAVEDENIH) - MAKAR TO ZNACILO I RAZDOR I SEKTASENJE MEDJU VJERNICIMA.
OD SLIJEDJENJA OBICAJA KAO STO JE JEDENJE NA ODREDJENI NACIN, SPAVANJE, HODANJE, SJEDENJE, BRACNI ODNOSI, I SVAKA ZIVOTNA DJELATNOST NA ODREDJENI NACIN, ZABRANA MUZIKE, "PRETJERANOG" SMIJEHA, UPOSLJAVANJA ZENA, GLEDANJE I POSJEDOVANJE TV-A I VCR-A, KNJIGA ZA DJECU SA SLIKAMA, DRZANJE PASA, I MNOSTVO SLICNIH ZABRANA A SVE TO U SKLADU SA NEKIM HADISOM I SA NIJJETOM (NAMJEROM) DA JE TO "U IME BOGA", DO OBREZIVANJA ZENA, POKRIVANJA ZENA OD GLAVE DO PETE, NOSENJA ODREDJENE DUZINE BRADE I HLACA, ITD JER SVAKI TAJ AKT ONOG KOJI GA SE PRIDRZAVA CINI "BOLJIM" VJERNIKOM.
NEKI SE HADISA PRIDRZAVAJU U MANJOJ MJERI NEKI U VECOJ, ALI STO DETALJNIJE - TO JE MUSLIMAN "BOLJI". VAZNO JE VJEROVATI DA JE NAVEDENO "GRIJEH" CAK I AKO SE NE PRIDRZAVA TOGA.

3. - DA JE HADIS NASTAO NAKON OBJAVE I DA SE MOZE VJERODOSTOJNOST DOKAZATI DO NEKE MJERE I NIJE MOGUCE BITI SIGURAN, ALI DA JE IPAK POHVALNO SLIJEDITI HADISE KAO DIO VJERE I SVAKODNEVNOG ZIVOTA, JER TO ZNACI "SLIJEDJENJE" MUHAMMEDA, CAK I KADA QUR'AN O NEKOM ZAKONU / PRAVILU KAZE JEDNO A HADIS DRUGO - PREDNOST IMA HADIS KAO "OBJASNJENJE" QUR'ANA.

4. - DA HADIS NIJE DIO BOZIJE OBJAVE, JER JE BOZIJA OBJAVA QUR'AN I PRIJASNJE OBJAVLJENE KNJIGE;
DA JE HADIS PREDAVANJE I PREPRICAVANJE PRVO USMENO OKO 200G., A POTOM I PISMENO, KOJE SE PRENOSILO SA GENERACIJE NA GENERACIJU;
DA HADIS IMA HISTORIJSKU VRIJEDNOST JER OPISUJE STANJE LJUDI ODREDJENOG DOBA I NJIHOVE OBICAJE BILO DA SU SAMO PRIPISANI MUHAMMEDU ILI NEKOME OD NJEGOVIH SLJEDBENIKA BILO DA SU ISTINITI.
S OBZIROM DA JE CINJENICNO, LOGICKI I HISTORIJSKI NEMOGUCE BEZ SUMNJE DOKAZATI VJERODOSTOJNOST HADISA, DOK JE QUR'AN SACUVAN U ORIGINALNOM OBLIKU (OSIM SURE TEWBA NAD KOJOM NE STOJI BASMALA I CIJA SAMO DVA ZADNJA AJETA SU KONTRAVERZNI PREDMET UCENJAKA QUR'ANA) A I SA OBZIROM NA CESTO UPOZORAVANJE U QUR'ANU NA SLIJEDJENJE SAMO BOZIJE OBJAVE KAO I NA NEISPRAVNOST SLIJEDJENJA "HADISA" (PRIPOVIJEDANJA) DRUGIH NEGO BOZIJI HADIS TJ QUR'AN, JER JE TO "BOZIJE PRIPOVIJEDANJE" OBJAVLJENO COVJEKU, - KAO OSNOV VJERSKIH ZAKONA I PRAVILA SE TREBA OSLANJATI SAMO NA QUR'AN KAO POSLJEDNJU OBJAVU;
DA SE NA HADIS SE NE TREBA OSLANJATI KAO IZVOR VJERSKIH ZAKONA I PRAVILA POSTO JE HISTORIJA DOKAZ I PRIMJER RASPODJELE VJERNIKA I MUSLIMANA NA RAZNE GRUPE, BAS RADI SLIJEDJENJA RAZLICITIH HADISA, CESTO NEPRIJATELJSKE JEDNE DRUGIMA A STO JE PROTIVNO QUR'ANU U KOJEM BOG UPOZORAVA VJERNIKE I MUSLIMANE DA SE NE RAZDJELJUJU;
DA JE QUR'AN DOVOLJNO DETALJAN U STVARIMA KOJE BOG DRZI DA SU VAZNE I NEOPHODNE, A DA JE SVAKODNEVNO ZIVLJENJE PREPUSTENO PROMJENI SA PROMJENOM VREMENA I DRUSTVENIH ZAJEDNICA KAO I CIVILIZACIONIH DOSTIGNUCA.

ZAKLJUCAK

AKO NEMA DRUGACIJIH STAVOVA ILI DALJNJIH ARGUMENATA (KAO POTPORA ZA NEKI STAV A NE KAO POBIJANJE DRUGOG STAVA), MOZEMO OVU DISKUSIJU DA ZAKLJUCIMO.

NA SVAKOM JE DA SE ZAMISLI NAD SVOJIM STAVOM I ODLUCI DA LI DA OSTANE PRI TOME, DA LI DA PRIHVATI DA NI DRUGI NISU BEZ OSNOVE I DA PROMJENI SVOJ STAV, ILI NEGDJE "IZMEDJU".

ZA ONE KOJI SU PRATILI DISKUSIJU, SVAKO MOZE DA SAGLEDA ZA SEBE SVAKI STAV I DA ODLUCI KOJI JE NAJLOGICNIJI, NAJPRIKLADNIJI U SMISLU VJERSKOG ZIVOTA - I DA SAMI ZAKLJUCE SA KOJIM SE STAVOM SLAZU.


Vazno je da se iznesu razlicita misljenja i argumenti, a svako ima pravo da se slozi ili ne, kao i duznost da koristi Bogom-dati razum kao i duznost iskrenost prema Bogu i sebi samom.

Prihvatimo PRAVO da neko ima jedno, neko drugo misljenje - i ne dozvolimo da budemo netolerantni.

Mir i Bozija Milost i Blagoslov svima

Sarafcina
Posts: 2260
Joined: 19/09/2005 00:59

#57

Post by Sarafcina » 12/12/2006 09:25

@KGKG
gdje ti to nadje ovu tacku pod jedan? smislila ili citiras?
tacke jedan i dva ti kontradiktiraju ;).
kako u svoj rezon (ovo u zagradi pod tackom dva) uklapas 53:3
u tackama dva tri i cetiri lazes (nemam druge rijeci, jer ne mozes da izneses dokaz za svoje tvrdnje)
tvoj tzv. zakljucak je ustvari peta teza ;) koja ima jedan problem kad je u pitanju sektasenje i razdjeljivanje ;)....



Prihvatimo PRAVO da neko ima jedno, neko drugo misljenje - i ne dozvolimo da budemo netolerantni.
ako je tolerancija prihvatanje i trpljenje necijih lazi, onda imamo problem, jer nam se definicije tolerancije razlikuju.
a ti svojim pisanjem ne ostavljas prostor da ja imam svoje misljenje.
a pozivanje na slobodu misljenja i toleranciju kada izgubis argumente ima jedno drugo ime ;).

KOGOD KADGOD
Posts: 789
Joined: 17/11/2006 02:53

#58

Post by KOGOD KADGOD » 12/12/2006 13:58

Sarafcina wrote:@KGKG
gdje ti to nadje ovu tacku pod jedan? smislila ili citiras?
tacke jedan i dva ti kontradiktiraju ;).
kako u svoj rezon (ovo u zagradi pod tackom dva) uklapas 53:3
u tackama dva tri i cetiri lazes (nemam druge rijeci, jer ne mozes da izneses dokaz za svoje tvrdnje)
tvoj tzv. zakljucak je ustvari peta teza ;) koja ima jedan problem kad je u pitanju sektasenje i razdjeljivanje ;)....



Prihvatimo PRAVO da neko ima jedno, neko drugo misljenje - i ne dozvolimo da budemo netolerantni.
ako je tolerancija prihvatanje i trpljenje necijih lazi, onda imamo problem, jer nam se definicije tolerancije razlikuju.
a ti svojim pisanjem ne ostavljas prostor da ja imam svoje misljenje.
a pozivanje na slobodu misljenja i toleranciju kada izgubis argumente ima jedno drugo ime ;).
:roll:
Sagledaj sve upisane postove, vidi ko je kakav stav i argumente iznio i izvuci ces zakljucak o tome koji su stavovi SKRACENO izneseni.
:)
Nakon sto izvuces srz svakog stava, izneses tu srz, ponovo pozoves ako ima drugih misljenja (ako nema onda mozemo zakljuciti) i ako ima DRUGACIJIH od navedenih idemo dalje :)

Posto neki ocito ne znaju kako se vodi diskusija, oni i nisu u stanju da zakljuce srz argumenata.

:-D

Pod tackom DVA, u zagradi, se misli na osobe kao sto sam ja i ostali koji se drze Qur'ana, ovdje mi je dovoljno puta receno (i to ne lijepo) da nisam u pravu sto samo slijedim Qur'an i pravila i duznosti tu navedene - dakle meni to nije, po vasem misljenju, "dovoljno" (kao ni drugima koji ne koriste hadis kao osnov za vjerske zakone)...

Razloga za "laganje" (kako tako ruznu rijec reci vjerniku) nemam, jer laze neko ko se plasi nekoga / necije reakcije, a posto se ne"plasim" nikoga sem Bozijeg nezadovoljtsva - ne mogu ni da lazem, niti imam razloga.

Bog je dovoljan Svjedok. Zar tebi nije?

Da i u najmanju ruku mislim da Bog nije zadovoljan onima koji potvrdjuju i pozivaju na autenticnost Njegove Objave kao JDINI osnov vjerskog zakona - ne bih ovo ni pisala.
Ali ZNAM i vidim, da Uzviseni u Qur'anu upozorava na opasnost slijedjenja drugih spisa kao osnov vjere, i pokusavam da se toga i drzim (jer iz iskustva znam sta biva kada se nesto drugo osim Objave uzima za osnov vjere i vjerskih pravila).
Last edited by KOGOD KADGOD on 12/12/2006 14:14, edited 1 time in total.

KOGOD KADGOD
Posts: 789
Joined: 17/11/2006 02:53

#59

Post by KOGOD KADGOD » 12/12/2006 14:03

danas wrote:hajde sve na stranu, al' sto sve udari velikim slovima... ko da se dere na nas... :-) :-) :-)
@danas, ti bar treba da znas razliku izmedju "deranja" i naglasavanja najvaznijeg dijela teksta, tj. srzi teksta.

Velika slova se koriste u CHAT ROOM-u kao "deranje" a u obicnom pisanom tekstu kao naglasavanje, da bi se jedan kljucni dio rzlikovao od ostalog potpornog teksta.

Ovdje ko hoce da se "dere" i "prijeti" - to dovoljno jasno cini i malim slovima (nazalost).

KOGOD KADGOD
Posts: 789
Joined: 17/11/2006 02:53

#60

Post by KOGOD KADGOD » 12/12/2006 14:21

Posto nekima treba vise argumenata, a primjetila sam da se mogu ostavljati postovi na engleskom (ne vjerujem da vas dovoljno cita arapski) - evo jednog MALOG teksta na tu temu. Ako treba ima jos :)

U svojim postovima sam iznijela, UKRATKO prevedeno, srz mnogih izvora na temu o kojoj govorimo, ali se to samo protumacilo kao neko moje "lijevo" shvatanje.

Take your time :)


'Hadeeth'
A critical evaluation with argument and counter-argument

By Mabrook Ismaeel


Hadeeth is the term used to denote the alleged sayings and acts, 'traditions', of the Prophet Muhammad, may peace be upon him.
Thousands of 'aHadeeth are preserved in volumes of all sorts that adorn the bookcases of every devout 'Muslim'. Few of these 'Muslims' ever read the 'aHadeeth with care and attention, and fewer still think carefully about their content and its implications; they just accept them.

The Case
The advocates of Hadeeth, unfortunately the vast majority of those who call themselves 'Muslim', consider it to be necessary to elucidate the Qur'an and shed light on those areas where It is silent. Their belief is based on the allegation that the Qur'an does not state the times prescribed for offering the 'salat', prayers, their number, their method or the number of 'rak'a', bowings and kneeling, of each. Hadeeth, they claim, teaches them these things.

Their argument is that the Qur'an is analogous to a constitution which lays down broad guidelines leaving it to the legislature to fill in the necessary detail in the form of laws, application rules and interpretation bulletins needed to implement the intent of the constitution. To them, Hadeeth fills in the detail for their constitution.

Ironically, this is only partially true. They stumbled upon this partial truth, misconstrued it and based it on the wrong rationale, as we shall, God willing, see later.

Hadeeth is claimed to be a 'science' by its advocates, though there is nothing in it that might be amenable to scientific testing. Nonetheless, the 'aHadeeth - of a specific format of which more later - that were reduced to writing have been sorted into two major categories and several sub-categories depending upon the researcher.

Briefly, the two major classifications are 'Hadeeth Shareef' and 'Hadeeth Qudsi'. The vast majority of 'aHadeeth fall into the first category which is defined as the sayings and acts of the Prophet Muhammad as reported verbatim, by word of mouth, by his immediate companions. Although derived from the same source, the sayings have come to be known as 'al-aHadeeth an-nabawiya', whereas the acts constitute what is known as 'Sunna Muhammad' roughly translated as Muhammad's 'method'. It is this category of 'aHadeeth that concerns us in this article.

The second classification comprises short sayings - reported verbatim by Muhammad's closest companions - said to be God Himself speaking in the first person but issuing from the mouth of Muhammad. They are alleged to be divine revelation outside of the Qur'an. We shall, God willing, show later that these allegations are totally contrary to the Qur'an.

The 'aHadeeth ash-shareefah' are further classified into three - though both Al-Bukhari and Muslim recognize two, the first and last only - sub-classes, 'saheeh' (intact or integral), 'hassan' (good) and 'da'eef' (weak or defective).

'Saheeh' describes those 'aHadeeth reported, in the first person, by an unbroken transmission chain of reporters whose integrity is judged, by the compilers, to be beyond reproach.

'Hassan' refers to those 'aHadeeth that do not conform to the conditions laid down for 'saheeh' in that their transmission chains are good but contain one weak but honest reporter.

'Da'eef' describes the bulk of 'aHadeeth, and which do not meet the requirements for the other two classes. The 'aHadeeth ad da'eefah' may have one or more defects in the transmission chain and are classified into several sub-classes ranging from the 'acceptable' to the 'fraudulent', depending on the type and gravity of the defect in the transmission chain.

It is to be emphasized that the above classification of the 'aHadeeth is based exclusively on the 'sanad', transmission chain, and does not address the 'matn', content or substance of the Hadeeth.

Ironically, there are several 'aHadeeth, traceable to the Prophet himself, that prohibit the recording of anything from him except the Qur'an; thus in Ahmad Ibn Hanbal as well as in Muslim we find an identical Hadeeth stating "Abi Sa'eed Al-Khudri, may God be pleased with him, reported that the Messenger of God, may peace be upon him, said, 'Do not write anything from me EXCEPT the Qur'an. Anyone who wrote anything other than the Qur'an shall erase it'..." Obviously the Prophet's prime motivation was God's imposition of the Qur'an upon him; chapter 28, Al-Qassas, verse 85 states "Surely, the One who decreed the Qur'an upon you will summon you to a predetermined appointment. Say 'My Lord is fully aware of those who uphold the guidance, and those who have gone astray.'", but also being the astute, intelligent man endowed with foresight that he undoubtedly was, he had foreseen the problems that such writing might engender, hence the prohibition on anything from him but the Qur'an, not least because God Himself has undertaken to preserve It as stated at chapter 15, Al-Hijr, verse 9, which assures "We have revealed the Reminder and We shall preserve it." God says nothing about preserving Hadeeth.

The ban on writing Hadeeth remained in effect till the end of the first century A.H. when Umar Ibn Abdil-Azeez, the great grandson of the illustrious Umar Ibnil-Khattab, became khalifa. This pious and righteous man instituted several memorable 'reforms'. First, he banned the despicable custom of cursing Ali Ibn Abi-Talib from the pulpits of the empire - which custom had been imposed by the usurper Mu'awiya Ibn Abi-Sufyan - and attempted to eliminate the ongoing disputes regarding the companions of the Prophet by decreeing that none of them is to be maligned from the pulpits; they were to be praised instead. Then he lifted the ban on reducing the 'aHadeeth to writing. This was a fatal mistake!

Umar's intentions are not in question, but in this particular case the road, literally, to Hell is paved with good intentions.

It is worth digressing at this point to bring certain facts to the fore. After the Prophet's death many disputes arose among his 'sahabah', immediate companions. They got involved in intrigues and factional disputes finally leading to their taking sides in the assassination of Uthman Ibn-'Affan and in a war that pitted some, including 'A'isha, the Prophet's widow against others, including Ali Ibn Abi-Talib, his cousin and close confidant, which culminated in the murder of Ali.

Umar's edict enjoining the praising of the Prophet's companions from the pulpits and prohibiting attacks upon them had the effect, in time, of turning them into saints who could do no wrong. This, in the long run suited the compilers of the 'aHadeeth and the 'sunna', especially those with ulterior motives, perfectly since it tended to enhance the credibility of the reporters and lend strength to the 'aHadeeth transmitted through any of them.

Historians such as At-Tabari and Ibnil-Atheer were under no such constraints and have recorded the darker and less seemly side of the 'sahabah', reporting that many of them, especially during Uthman's incumbency, including Uthman himself, amassed large fortunes. Umar Ibnil-Khattab is said to have appointed Abu Hurayra governor of Bahrain then recalled him and accused him of misappropriating funds and forced him to pay back some of his ill-gotten gains. Others were accused of murder and others still of adultery. Not all of the Prophet's companions, of course, took advantage of their friendship with him for personal gain; many, including Abu-Bakr, Umar and Ali, were pious men who feared God and honored their relationship with the Prophet.

Umar Ibn Abdil-Azeez's edict, in time, turned all the 'sahabah' into pious men whose integrity was beyond question, thus giving Abu Hurayra's words equal weight with those of Abu-Bakr. The books of Hadeeth are replete with 'aHadeeth from Abu Hurayra the embezzler, Al-Mughira Ibn-Shu'bah the adulterer, Khalid Ibnil-Waleed the murderer and Amr Ibnil 'Aas the treacherous liar who precipitated the civil war that led to Ali's assassination. Their names are now always followed by the phrase "may God be pleased with them".

Strangely enough, Umar, in lifting the ban on the recording of Hadeeth, was almost certainly influenced by the existence of other 'aHadeeth, also traceable to the Prophet, permitting the recording of his sayings. Obviously the contradiction and the glaring lack of written material throughout the preceding century and its ramifications must have escaped our venerable scholars, as did, above all, the reasons behind it.

There are many books of Hadeeth of varying reliability and repute. Of these, six, collectively known as 'kutub as-sahaah', are generally accepted as 'saheeh', literally 'intact' or 'true', the oldest and most authoritative of which is Al-Bukhari, followed by Muslim, his pupil, then At-Tirmidhi, An-Nissa'i, Ibn-Majja and Ahmad Ibn Hanbal though not necessarily in that order.

Some Hadeeth scholars take only the works of Al-Bukhari and Muslim as being 'saheeh' and classify the other four authors' works as 'hassan'.

Typical of the authors of the books of 'sahaah' is Al-Bukhari (194-256 A.H./810-870 A.D.) who wrote two hundred odd years after the Prophet Muhammad. He claims to have collected six hundred thousand 'aHadeeth examined and sifted them, finally settling on about seventy six hundred which, when the repetitions are deleted, drop to about four thousand. The 'aHadeeth in 'Saheeh Al-Bukhari', as with those in the other 'saheeh' books, are said to be true in every respect and unassailable as to their line of transmission all the way down from the Prophet. They constitute the most important body of Islamic religious literature.

The work, as with all the others, is monumental, but unfortunately, and perhaps contrary to the intention of the author, it has come to be the source of the religion now professed by those who claim to be Muslims. It has, in practice, replaced the Qur'an as the major source of Islamic religious knowledge and turned the Prophet Muhammad, certainly without his knowledge and most assuredly against his will - as attested to by the ban he imposed on the recording of anything from him except the Qur'an - into an object of unwitting worship as the source of all knowledge, religious and worldly, apart from the Qur'an.

The advocates of Hadeeth put forward a specious argument mandating the acceptance of the 'sunna' and the following of it.

Briefly their argument goes as follows:

'God sent down the scripture, the Qur'an, through the Prophet Muhammad - the final emissary from God and whom God describes as a mercy to all mankind - by way of a constitution, laying down broad guidelines. We are commanded by God to obey the Prophet, take what he gives us, refrain from what he prohibits and follow his excellent example. It is obligatory to follow the Prophet's example because he was divinely inspired in everything he did and said and was, as the recipient of the Qur'an, the best candidate to expound It. Furthermore, Muhammad was given the 'hikmah', wisdom, which was sent down by God to him to enable him to teach us the details of our religion and its proper practice, legislating the good things and prohibiting the evil. In addition, Muhammad, as a mercy to all mankind, will intercede on behalf of his 'ummah', followers, on the Day of Judgment with God. Al-Bukhari and the other 'righteous predecessors' spent their entire lives collecting, examining, sorting and sifting the 'aHadeeth which are the residual wisdom of the Prophet and therefore the example we are to follow.'

Their argument is based on their misunderstanding of the numerous verses in the Qur'an which enjoin us to obey God and the Messenger; the most commonly quoted of which are: chapter 4, An-Nissa', verse 59, which reads, in part, "O you who believe obey God and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you...", and verse 80 which says, in part, "Whoever obeys the Messenger has obeyed God."; chapter 3, Ali-'Imran, verse 31 which commands: " Say 'If you love God you shall follow me' God will love you and forgive your transgressions. God is Forgiver, Most Merciful." and verse 32, which dictates " Say 'Obey God and the Messenger'..."; the preceding verses, they claim, dictate obedience to the prophet. They also quote, probably the most abused verse in the Qur'an, chapter 59, Al-Hashr, verse 7 which says, in part, "...Whatever the Messenger gives you, you shall take and whatever he prohibits, you shall refrain from." to legitimize and mandate the acceptance of the Hadeeth and the 'sunna'.

They adduce chapter 33, Al-Ahzaab, verse 21, which states "You have, in the Messenger of God, an excellent example for whomever seeks God and the Last Day and constantly commemorates God." This verse enjoins following the example of the prophet.

They present another passage, based, we hasten to add, on a non-sequitur as we shall, God willing, later show, to argue the veracity and correctness of Hadeeth, namely chapter 53, An-Najm, verses 2, 3 and 4, which state "(2) Your friend was not astray nor was he misled. (3) Nor does he speak of his own desire. (4) It is none but inspiration divinely inspired" From this last verse they go so far as to claim that every word issuing from the mouth of Muhammad is 'inspiration divinely inspired'.

Finally, chapter 2, Al-Baqarah, verse 151, states, in part "...Such as sending into you a Messenger from among you to recite our revelations to you and to purify you and teach you the Book and Wisdom..." This verse, of course, is vital to their argument since it purports to support their belief that God sent down two distinct revelations, the Book, that is the Qur'an, and Wisdom, supposedly the 'sunna'.

The above verses are the ones most frequently presented by the proponents of Hadeeth to support their argument that the Messenger through his legacy, the 'aHadeeth, is, by God's command, to be obeyed, posthumously, we might add, unconditionally.

They do not, it is worthwhile noting, quote any verses to support their contentions that Muhammad was empowered to expound the Qur'an or that he will intercede with God on their behalf on the Day of Judgment. They support these contentions only from the Hadeeth. This is not surprising since there are no verses that would readily, even superficially, convey this meaning; a major leap of logic is required.

The Counter-argument

Let us take a close look at the parameters of Al-Bukhari's claims.

He claims to have been tutored by more than one thousand teachers, to have collected, examined and classified six hundred thousand 'aHadeeth of which he memorized more than one hundred thousand. We are not told that he had any assistants or helpers. Now, if we allow one single hour to process each Hadeeth he would have had to work non-stop for about seventy years. Since the work involved is time consuming and arduous, because each Hadeeth would have had to be traced back to the Prophet Muhammad through a long transmission chain each link of which must be closely examined to determine if the reporter partook of strong drink, and for such attributes as integrity, moral rectitude, astuteness, truthfulness, mental alertness, and, not least, soundness of memory; one would imagine that it would take considerably more than one single hour to process each Hadeeth. Add to that the fact that each chain might consist of as many as six or seven individuals of successive generations all but one of whom are dead, and one can readily see the magnitude of this daunting task.

At this juncture one might reasonably ask: was it physically possible for Al-Bukhari to have examined that many 'aHadeeth? The answer is no! If that is the case, then Al-Bukhari's own credibility becomes suspect. If in fact he did examine that many 'aHadeeth then could he have possibly given the work due care? The answer is, again, no! He is said to have completed the work in sixteen years. This means that he could not have devoted more than fifteen minutes to process each Hadeeth all told, including, presumably, the two genuflection prayer he is said to have offered before recording each Hadeeth. In either case we are left with a highly questionable situation.

These questions are basic and go to the root of the problem at hand. How Islamic scholars, who claim to be 'scientific', could have failed to pose them is, to say the least, puzzling. Even more puzzling, if they did, in fact, pose these questions, is their very ready acceptance of obviously absurd and evidently unscientific answers.

Even more disquieting is the enormous importance ascribed to Al- Bukhari, Muslim and the other 'saheeh' tomes in Islamic religious literature. The 'sharee'ah', Islamic canon law, is drawn mainly from the 'sunna' as are the everyday religious practices and anyone not following, let alone rejecting, the 'sunna' is considered to border on apostasy 'murtad'. The punishment for apostasy, 'ridda' according to the 'sunna' is death. The Qur'an does not lay down any punishment to apostasy. Chapter 2, Al-Baqarah, verse 256 states, in part "There shall be no compulsion in religion; the right path is now distinct from the wrong path..."

Apart from any questions speaking to the integrity of the content of Hadeeth, logic dictates that it should play no role whatsoever in either exegesis or jurisprudence.

God tells us that the Qur'an is fully detailed and complete. Chapter 6, Al-An'am, verses 114 - 115 state "(114) Shall I seek other than God as an arbiter, when He is the one who revealed to you the Book explained in detail? Those to whom We have given the Book know that it was revealed by your Lord in truth. So be not among those who harbour doubt. (115) The word of your Lord is complete in truth and justice. Nothing shall alter His words and He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.".

These verses clearly and unequivocally state that the Qur'an is fully detailed and complete. God Himself tells us that. Thus, in light of the foregoing, one might conclude that any Hadeeth - regardless of whether it issued from the lips of the prophet or of its quality - that conforms with the Qur'an is not needed since it can add nothing to, or enhance our understanding of the Qur'an which, according to God, is fully detailed and complete. If, on the other hand, it does not conform with the Qur'an, it is false and must be discarded. So, one might legitimately ask, what need is there for Hadeeth? Again, the honest answer is none!

So much for the logic of accepting Hadeeth. As for following it, this is risky business indeed! Accepting any matter of religion other than that which is specifically sanctioned by God - regardless of its intrinsic merit - is tantamount to idol-worship. God has sanctioned only the Qur'an. Read what chapter 42, Ash-Shura, verse 21 in part, states, "Or do they have partners who decree for them matters of religion not sanctioned by God?..."

There are other reasons for not accepting the 'aHadeeth.

Even a perfunctory perusal of Al-Bukhari's, Muslim's or any of the other works reveals very serious shortcomings. The 'sahaah' authors concentrated only on examining the transmission chain 'sanad' and failed, deliberately it seems, to consider the content 'matn' or substance, assuming, instead, that the impeccable credentials of the individuals reporting the Hadeeth - who will never report anything they had not themselves witnessed or heard from the Prophet himself or from other equally reliable reporters as the case may be - will guarantee the veracity of the Hadeeth.

Consequently, and not surprisingly, they attribute to the Prophet, may peace be upon him, sayings and actions that are contrary to reason and good sense or involving knowledge of future events - which, one might add, is specifically denied in the Qur'an - or things that are devoid of any useful subject matter and, in many instances, reprehensible behavior.

Other 'aHadeeth are slanted in favor of one or another of the political factions that came into being long after the prophet's death, most notably the Bani-Umayya who usurped power from the rightful ruler Ali Ibn Abi-Talib. Al-Bukhari betrays his own anti-Ali feelings for he relates very few 'aHadeeth through Ali and does not include ones that favor him but relates many that are inimical to Ali and has included a whole section on Mu'awiya, Ali's arch enemy. Muslim, in fairness, holds a more balanced view.

There are, of course, numerous 'aHadeeth that contradict the Qur'an outright and others, especially ones coming through Abu-Hurayra, that are distinctly rabbinical in nature and content.

The most commonly stated justification for Hadeeth is that it teaches the 'salat' (obligatory prayer). Al-Bukhari has a whole section called 'The Book of Prayer' and what is most amazing is that it does not contain a single Hadeeth that teaches the obligatory prayer. It contains mostly reports of people who purportedly saw the Prophet do or say certain things relating to the prayer and only one Hadeeth where he is reported to have taught one man, whom he had seen perform the prayer incorrectly, to pray. But the Hadeeth, as reported, says that the Prophet instructed the man in how to carry out the physical actions, kneeling and bowing, and to recite any part of the Qur'an failing to cite the number of bowing and kneeling or to mention the required recitation of "Al-Fatihah" the omission of which, we are told by other 'aHadeeth nullifies the prayer. There is one other Hadeeth, "Pray in the way you have seen me pray", but this Hadeeth does not teach the prayer either. There are no 'aHadeeth that give the number of 'rak'ah', bowings and kneeling, for each prayer, or, for that matter the rate of 'zakat', the self-administered obligatory 'income' tax.

Surely, had the Prophet been instructed by God to teach the obligatory prayer, as they claim, God would have, in view of its paramount importance, clearly told him so in the Qur'an. Had God instructed him - in some way outside of the Qur'an - he would have unambiguously and persistently proclaimed it to the people and would have taught them the prayer in detail just as the Qur'an does when we are instructed to carry out the ritual washing. Chapter 5 'Al-Ma'ida', verse 6 says, in part, "O you who believe, when you determine to offer the prayer you shall wash your faces and your arms to the elbows, and wipe your heads and wash your feet to the ankles. If you were ritually unclean from sexual intercourse you shall bathe..."

In this verse the Qur'an not only gives us detailed instructions for the 'wudu'', but also gives us the conditions precedent - ritual cleanliness after sexual intercourse - the conditions that nullify the 'wudu'' - discharge of human waste - as well as the alternative, 'tayammum', again fully detailed, in case clean water is not readily available or not recommended where the supplicant is sick. The instructions are succinct and comprehensive.

Contrast that with the paucity of instruction in a sea of marginally relevant 'aHadeeth. If one were to peruse the whole section on prayer and many other 'aHadeeth dealing with the subject of prayer, one might, with a great deal of patience, emerge with what resembles the obligatory prayer; but there are no 'aHadeeth that clearly and unambiguously teach the prayer, citing the actions and the required recitations, their order and number, the number of 'rak'ah' in each, the number of prayers in the day and their prescribed times.

Now let us examine Hadeeth from the Qur'anic point of view.

We shall, God willing, endeavor to put the verses most commonly cited by the advocates of Hadeeth, in support of their argument, in their correct Qur'anic perspective by accepting their straight forward meanings at face value. This is how we are to read the Qur'an. God describes the Qur'an at chapter 39, Az-Zumar, verse 28, "An Arabic Qur'an without any ambiguity that they might be righteous."

This last verse and Chapter 6, Al-An'am, verses 114 and 115, quoted above, unequivocally state that the Qur'an is clear, complete and fully detailed. If the Qur'an, as God Himself states, is complete and fully detailed, then It, ipso facto, cannot be clarified or completed since It is already fully detailed, clear and complete.

This argument is logically unassailable, yet Islamic scholars fail to see its logic and still insist on the need for Hadeeth, which leads to the inescapable conclusion that they do not, at least fully, believe God when He says that the Qur'an is clear, fully detailed, complete and contains no contradictions. Only then would their position make any sense, for if they do believe God, as they emphatically claim, they would accept that the Qur'an is clear, fully detailed, complete and contains no contradictions and thus does not need Hadeeth or anything else to explain, elucidate or complete It.

The conclusion that must be drawn from their insistence on the role they ascribe to Hadeeth is that they only partially believe God. If they do believe that the Qur'an is complete and fully detailed then they must believe that it contains contradictions in order to allow for a role for Hadeeth and 'sunna'. The corollary is that if they accept that the Qur'an is free of contradiction then they cannot believe that it is complete and fully detailed; otherwise their position would be logically untenable.

Such confused thinking is not surprising given that these people believe, accept and defend contradictory 'aHadeeth and will even seriously consider that the 'sunna' can abrogate the Qur'an since the 'sunna' is in fact divinely inspired revelation and therefore comes from the same source as the Qur'an except that it, unlike the Qur'an, is not in 'recitable' form. Many scholars of Islam actually believe this to be the case and believe that the words of Muhammad, may peace be upon him, a mere mortal, can take precedence over those of the Almighty Creator or even abrogate them. The prophet, like Jesus, will disown all those who claim to love him and would make such idolatrous allegations in his name.

Obedience to the Prophet.
First, we shall, God willing, address the issue of obeying the Prophet in spite of the fact that he has been dead for fourteen centuries and cannot issue any orders and consequently cannot be disobeyed.

God, in the Qur'an, invariably refers to 'God and the Messenger', as shown in the verses previously quoted, but this is clearly done for emphasis. God is telling us in no uncertain terms that the Messenger will never willfully take a position other than that taken by God, that he will never knowingly make a statement contrary to the Qur'an and that he will always support God's position as stated in the Qur'an, hence the phrase 'God and the Messenger'. It implies total support, not that the prophet might, or indeed can, take an independent stance. Chapter 69, Al-Haaqah, verses 44 to 47 state "(44) Had he falsely attributed certain sayings to Us (45) We would have inflicted punishment upon him (46) Then We would have stopped the revelation to him (47) And none of you could have shielded him from Us." These verses also definitively deny the body of 'aHadeeth referred to as 'Qudsi' which would thus fall under the purview of 69 (Al-Haaqah):44 cited above.

What is it that the Messenger is to be obeyed in? His whims? absolutely not! Chapter 10, Yunus, verse 15 states, "When Our revelations are recited to them, those who do not expect to meet Us say 'Bring a Qur'an other than this, or change It!' Say, 'It is not for me to amend It of my own volition. I simply follow what is revealed to me. I fear, if I disobey my Lord, the retribution of an awesome day." From this we learn that the Prophet had no mandate to command us to do anything not sanctioned by God, otherwise the request to 'bring a Qur'an other than this or change it' would not make sense; his orders to us must be restricted to the message just like those issued by his illustrious predecessor messengers such as Nuh, Hud, Luut, Shu'aib and Saleh.

Chapter 7, Al-A'raaf, verses 59 through 93 inform us that they proclaimed to their people, in practically identical words, that they were messengers from God instructed to command them to worship God alone, to follow the guidance sent down by God and to obey them, the messengers, - they ask for no wage - in order to be rightly guided. They also warned their people of the consequences of disobeying them. Note that obedience is always voluntary and always connected with the message they were sent to deliver; the 'messenger' is always identified with his 'message'. From this, one may deduce that obedience was due not the individual, but the messenger, that is the message, as it is the message which will lead to right guidance; the message is meant to be obeyed even after the demise of the Messenger himself. It therefore follows that the messenger's job was to deliver the message and warn the recipients of the consequences of failing to obey the message. Once this is done, the messenger has no further responsibility. Whether they and their descendants obey the 'messenger' or not is entirely up to them. If they do obey it will be for their own good, if they do not it will be to their own detriment.

Had the obedience been due the Messenger himself, God would have told us to obey 'Muhammad', extended his responsibilities and given him powers of enforcement. There are no such provisions, and force is never recommended except within very narrow limits and always in a defensive manner as a reaction to its use by the opposition.

Muhammad's message was no different; obeying him, in the Qur'anic context, means only one thing: obeying God's commandments, and God's commandments are to be found exclusively in the Qur'an. In this case, of course, obeying the Messenger is obligatory for one's salvation since he is telling us, in effect, to "Obey the commandments of God as laid down in the Qur'an." Obeying others or disobeying God will inevitably lead us to perdition.

God tells us, in support of the above argument, at chapter 24, An-Nur, verse 54 " Say, 'Obey God and the Messenger.' If they refuse then he is responsible for his obligations and you are responsible for yours. If you obey him you will be rightly guided. The sole duty of the Messenger is to deliver." and at chapter 6, Al-An'am, verse 19, in part "...and this Qur'an has been inspired to me to warn you with and whomever It reaches..." and again at chapter 18, Al-Kahf, verse 27, we are told "Recite what has been revealed to you from your Lord's Book. None shall abrogate Its words and you shall never find refuge besides It." Note that the subject of the verse is 'Your Lord's Book'; thus 'words', 'abrogate' and 'refuge' apply to the 'Book', not 'Your Lord'. Salvation for us is in our 'Lord's book'.

Finally, and for good measure, we cite here two verses, chapter 5, Al-Ma'idah, verse 67, which commands "O Messenger! deliver what was sent down to you from your Lord, and if you do not, then you will not have delivered His messages, and God protects you from the people. God does not guide the disbelievers." and chapter 88, Al-Ghaashiyah, verses 21 and 22 state "(21) You shall remind; you are entrusted to remind, (22) You have no power over them." Only the believers will obey the Messenger; as for the disbelievers, they will not obey and will not be guided, but they will have been given a fair chance to be.

The above verses notwithstanding, the advocates of Hadeeth take the position that the Prophet was empowered to legalize things and prohibit other things and it is in these matters that he is to be obeyed and they go so far as to accept a Hadeeth which brazenly states "I was given the Qur'an and a similar one with it!" Maybe it is that 'similar Qur'an' which empowers the Prophet to legislate; the Qur'an we know certainly does not!

Could this Hadeeth be true in view of 5(Al-Ma'idah):67 quoted immediately above? If it were, God would have informed us in the Qur'an. Muhammad delivered only one Qur'an. Could he have flouted God's direct orders, amply cited above, and failed to deliver the 'similar Qur'an'? and what good is this 'similar Qur'an' to us if he kept it to himself?

Nowhere is it stated, or even implied, that the Messenger was commanded to deliver other than the Qur'an. In fact God, in the above cited verses, tells us clearly that it is only the Qur'an that we are to receive from His prophet and the only thing we are to consider. It is this Qur'an that the Messenger warns us with and it is this Qur'an that he is to deliver. These are perfectly clear verses that need no exegesis or interpretation. God will hold us, as well as the Messenger, responsible for the Qur'an, thus at chapter 43, Az-Zukhruf, verse 44, He says "It is the Reminder for you and for your people and you will surely be held accountable."

Here God imposes the Qur'an on our prophet and on us; He does not mention anything else. God does not err, be He exalted, nor does He forget. The omission of anything else from the above verse is not an oversight, it is deliberate because He decreed nothing else. The Qur'an is not a riddle.

Finally, we present, in support of our contention that the Prophet Muhammad was given nothing but the Qur'an as the instrument of his mission, the following two verses, chapter 50, Qaf, verse 45 "We are fully aware of what they say, and you have no power over them. Therefore, remind with the Qur'an those who would fear My warnings." and chapter 27, An-Naml, at verses 91 and 92 says "(91) I was commanded to worship the Lord of this town; He has made it a safe sanctuary and He possesses all things. I was commanded to be a submitter (92) And to recite the Qur'an. Whoever is guided is guided for his own good and if they go astray, then Say 'I am merely a warner'". The use of the term 'guided' after the word 'Qur'an' can only mean that the instrument for this guidance is the Qur'an.

These verses clearly show that Muhammad's task was to deliver only the Qur'an. He was not commanded to deliver anything else, to recite anything else, to warn with anything else, to strive with anything else, to remind with anything else or to rule with anything else. There are, it is to be reiterated, no contradictions or ambiguities in the Qur'an.

From these and the following verses one can also deduce that Muhammad's task, as the Messenger, did not include expounding the Qur'an. Chapter 33, Al-Ahzaab, verse 45, states "O Prophet, We have sent you as a witness, a bearer of good news and a warner." Also, Chapter 5, Al-Ma'ida, verse 99, states "The sole duty of the Messenger is to deliver the message and God knows what you reveal and what you conceal." Again, at chapter 13, Ar-Ra'd, verse 40, we read "Whether we show you some of what We promise them or earlier terminate your life, it is for you to deliver the message and for Us to call them to account." Also chapter 42, Ash-Shura, verse 48 informs us, in part, that "So if they turn away, We did not send you as their guardian. Your duty is but to convey..." If God is just, as He claims to be, would He call us to account for an unclear and incomplete message that was not manifestly delivered to us? No!

As amply shown above, the Prophet's sole function was to deliver the Qur'an and use It to warn, but also Muhammad's activities as Messenger were circumscribed by the Qur'an thus at chapter 25, Al-Furqan, verse 52 God commands him "Therefore do not obey the disbelievers and strive against them with It, a great striving." Thus all of Muhammad's mission is centered on the Qur'an, including his struggles.

In his temporal functions also, Muhammad is commanded to use the Qur'an. Chapter 5, Al-Ma'ida, verse 48, commands, in part, "...You shall rule among them in accordance with what God has revealed and do not follow their wishes if these differ from what was sent down to you..."

What is it that God sent down to His Messenger? Only the Qur'an! As we have seen, the Prophet himself prohibited the recording of anything from him except the Qur'an. That should tell us something about the importance he himself placed upon Hadeeth. Actions speak louder than words.

If there are no contradictions in the Qur'an - and there are none - these verses should be sufficient to convince the most obdurate of proponents of Hadeeth that Muhammad was sent to deliver only the Qur'an and use It to deal with the believer as well as the disbeliever; bring good news to the former and warn the latter, and to use It as his reference in his functions as a temporal leader.

According to the clear verses of the Qur'an, Muhammad was prohibited from explaining the Qur'an. At chapter 75, Al-Qiyamah, verses 16 to 19, Muhammad is commanded "(16) Do not move your tongue to expedite It. (17) It is for Us to collect It and promulgate It. (18) Once We have promulgated It, you shall follow Its promulgation. (19) Thereafter it is for Us to explain It." These verses confirm three things: (a) that it is only the Qur'an that Muhammad was to deliver; the 'It' referred to in these verses is the Qur'an; (b) that not only was Muhammad prohibited from expounding the Qur'an, but (c) he was also commanded to follow It.

We have, by God's leave, presented proof from His Book that the Prophet had no mandate to explain the Qur'an. The Qur'an Itself, if we care to read It carefully, clearly implies that there was never a need for Muhammad to interpret or explain It, simply because God provided him - in the Qur'an - with all the answers he needed to have. Thus we read in the Qur'an the expression "They ask you about..., Say...!" The answer to the question put to the prophet is given, by God, in the detail sufficient to obviate further questions on the issue. Nowhere do we read "They ask you about..., Give them your opinion!" or "...See what you think!" or even "...answer them as you see fit!"

Whatever the Messenger Gives You, You Shall Take.
As previously stated, probably the most abused and bandied about verse in the entire Qur'an is chapter 59, Al-Hashr, verse 7 which reads, in part, "...Whatever the Messenger gives you, you shall accept, and whatever he prohibits, you shall refrain from."

This verse was revealed in connection with the distribution of the spoils of war, more specifically 'fay'', that is booty acquired from the enemy without combat such as, for example, abandoned enemy property. In this type of spoils the fighters do not share. Thus the believers were enjoined to accept only those spoils the Messenger gives them and to refrain from taking what he prohibits them. It is the 'fay'' which they are prohibited to take; God has dictated who the recipients are to be.

Even a simple perusal of that, the preceding and succeeding verses clearly shows that it refers to the spoils of war. But even if we give the proponents of Hadeeth the benefit of the doubt and assume that the verse is of a general rather than a specific nature we would have to ask ourselves "what is it that the Messenger gave us? and what is it that the Messenger prohibited?" The only thing that he did give us, according to the Qur'an, is the Qur'an Itself. He prohibited only what he was commanded to prohibit, namely the things specifically cited in the Qur'an. Chapter 66, At-Tahreem, verse 1 states, in part, "O Prophet, why do you prohibit what God has made lawful for you...?" This is a reprimand, one of several, directed to the Prophet for having prohibited something which God made lawful.

Since the Qur'an is fully detailed and complete, It must contain all the prohibitions imposed by God. Anything that is not specifically prohibited is thus ipso facto permitted and the Prophet is not allowed to prohibit it as evidenced by the above cited verse as well as by 6(Al-An'am):115 and by 10(Yunus):15 quoted earlier. And lest, by some twist of logic, the proponents of Hadeeth argue that the Prophet was not permitted to prohibit something that God made lawful for him, but he may prohibit things made lawful for others, we present chapter 5, Al-Ma'idah, verse 87 in part "O you who believe, do not prohibit the good things which God has made lawful for you..." Here God commands all those who believe - and that includes the Prophet - not to prohibit things made lawful by Him. Also recall 6(Al-An'am):115 where God states that nothing shall alter His words and 10(Yunus):15 where the Messenger states that he cannot amend the Qur'an of his own volition.

This position with regards the Qur'an, enjoining what It makes lawful and proscribing what It prohibits, is the only one befitting a messenger of God who is commanded to deliver the Qur'an and to obey It; only then would his stand be consistent with that of God and conforming to the Qur'an and the only fair one since on the Day of Judgment God will not accept any excuses from us for failing to follow His commandments, which He distinctly and unequivocally detailed for us in the Qur'an. The exclusion of prohibitions from the Qur'an would constitute a valid excuse, at God, for not honoring them.

Excellent Example
As for chapter 33, Al-Ahzaab, verse 21 which enjoins us to follow the messenger's excellent example, we must ask ourselves what is the example the conveyor of our religion is to give us? how he combed his hair? his mode of travel? what he did when he got sick? what foods he liked and how he ate them? how he carried out his personal hygiene? how he dressed? Obviously not, since most, if not all, of these things are irrelevant in our day and age; the Messenger had no hot and cold running water, shower or soap in his dwelling; he had no sewer, no pharmaceutical preparations or cosmetics, no automobile, no telescope, no machine gun, no high speed telecommunications or printing presses and no computers. All these modern amenities are gifts from God which He, in His mercy, created for our use. We should use them, as God intends them to be used, to make our lives easier and to praise Him. Thus it cannot be the messenger's life style that we are to follow as an example. What then?

Since he was commanded to follow the Qur'an and only the Qur'an, and since he was prohibited from explaining It, because though It is in plain Arabic, It is accessible only to the believer and no amount of explanation will get through to the disbeliever, the example must be in his moral behavior which is described as 'excellent' in the Qur'an and which must therefore accord with It, and in his steadfastness in the worship of the Almighty. The Messenger absolutely devoted his worship to God alone and sought his guidance only in the 'Light' that God sent down to him for us. We, by God's grace, still have that 'Light' to follow. What better example can there be?

God imposed the Qur'an on Muhammad just as He imposed It upon us. Muhammad thus had no choice but to follow It. He had the best road map or handbook, if you will, to get him to Paradise. If we wish to get to Paradise, we too must follow his example. He meticulously followed the road map or handbook which God gave to him - and to us, the Qur'an. In following the Qur'an we are necessarily following the Prophet's most excellent example.

That is the example that can be followed by anyone, anywhere at anytime and is the only example that matters since, if followed, it will lead to Paradise, the fulfillment of God's promise to those who will devote their worship to Him alone. This is the only example that need not be seen or explained to be understood and very easily followed.

The proponents of Hadeeth, of course, claim that Muhammad's lifestyle as well as his method of worship is the example to be followed. This inevitably leads to major inconsistencies in their behavior. We see many of these followers of the 'Sunna' - at least the more extreme among them - dressed in archaic garb and sporting unkempt beards without mustachio - they assure us that this is proper Islamic attire - in supposed emulation of the Prophet, and yet they do not hesitate to travel by air or to use assault rifles and anti-personnel devices with remote detonators to eliminate those who would dare hold opinions contrary to their tenets and whom they view as 'infidels' without regard for any innocent bystander who may happen to be in the way.

It is as if these 'Muslims' never heard 2(Al-Baqarah):256 cited earlier or chapter 18, Al-Kahf, verse 29 which commands Muhammad to "Proclaim: 'The truth is from your Lord'; so let whomever wishes to believe, do so and let whomever wishes to disbelieve, do so." These verses grant the entire human race absolute freedom of worship.

The confused and misguided tenets of these extremists are invariably derived from the myriad conflicting 'aHadeeth that suit their purposes and which permit them to do anything they wish and justify it no matter how reprehensible. They should pay heed to chapter 68, Al-Qalam, verse 36 to 38 which ask: "(36) What is wrong with your judgment? (37) Or do you have a Book to refer to? (38) In which you find anything you desire?". Nothing could be more apt.

These 'aHadeeth were certainly fabricated to justify and lend legitimacy to the iniquitous political behavior of the despotic ruler, who, more likely than not, had usurped power from his predecessor and who naturally was determined to hold on to it, or by the equally iniquitous opposition who were just as determined to remove the incumbent by any means - foul or fair.

The advocates of Hadeeth, as mentioned earlier, also follow what they believe to be the 'sunna' of the Prophet in the method of worship such as for example the ritual wash for prayer, 'wudu'. They do things differently from the ablution prescribed by God in the Qur'an. Here their alleged Hadeeth puts them at variance with God's direct commands. The 'wudu'', as detailed in the Qur'an, is a direct commandment of God; any changes to it, except as permitted by God, would put it outside of the definition laid down by God. It would thus cease to be valid consequently nullifying the prayer which it must, normally, precede. Surely Muhammad would never have flouted a direct order from his Lord.

Inspiration Divinely Inspired
Chapter 53, An-Najm, verse 4 which refers to 'inspiration divinely inspired' and which the proponents of Hadeeth say applies to every word issuing from the mouth of Muhammad and which they use in their attempt to prove the veracity of Hadeeth, in fact speaks to the Qur'an. The whole chapter refers to the Qur'an and to the 'Issra'', the heavenly journey that Muhammad was, by God's will, taken on and during which the Qur'an was placed in his heart and he was shown of the marvels of his Lord. It is the Qur'an which is 'inspiration divinely inspired'.

In the first place, even if we grant that every word that issued from the mouth of Muhammad was divine revelation or 'inspiration divinely inspired' - which we emphatically deny - it does not necessarily follow that Hadeeth is correct, because it is simply impossible to prove, scientifically or otherwise, that the Prophet actually said any of it given the total absence of writing throughout the first century A.H. In fact, in view of the odd nature of the content of some 'aHadeeth, the balance of probabilities weighs overwhelmingly against the Messenger, a good and sensible man chosen by God, ever having said them.

Here the proponents of Hadeeth are trying logical acrobatics to support their case! They are trying to lend an aura of infallibility to their 'aHadeeth by ascribing them to divine inspiration and then using that same divine inspiration to point to the infallibility of their 'aHadeeth all the while failing to establish any connection between the 'aHadeeth and the Prophet who is the one supposed to receive that divine inspiration in the first place. Clear? No amount of assumption or circular thinking will correct a non-sequitur.

Secondly it is utterly unreasonable to apply that verse to every word that issued from the mouth of Muhammad and, above all, it is contrary to the Qur'an, which, at chapter 33, Al-Ahzaab, verse 37, states in part "Recall that you said to the one who was blessed by God and blessed by you, 'Keep your wife and revere God' while hiding within yourself what God wished to proclaim. Thus you feared the people when you should have feared only God..." Muhammad made a major error and God is here reprimanding him. How can this be 'inspiration divinely inspired'?

The above verse also tells us that Muhammad did speak out of his own 'desire' or volition, thus proving that 53(An-Najm):3 could not possibly apply to every word he uttered, but, as we said earlier, applies only to the Qur'an. The words "keep your wife..." were uttered by Muhammad of his own desire; they could not possibly have been 'inspiration divinely inspired' since God reprimanded him for uttering them. God's testimony should put finis to this blasphemous claim for good.

Another reprimand is directed at Muhammad in chapter 80, Abasa, verse 1, and there are, as cited above, several others. The proponents of Hadeeth insist that these are not 'errors' and that Muhammad was immune to error. They refuse to believe God and accept that he was an ordinary human like them - the Qur'an assures us of that, thus at chapter 18, Al-Kahf, verse 110 God commands Muhammad, in part, to: " Say 'I am no more than a human like you, receiving inspiration that your God is One God'..." - and that all humans err. Furthermore, if these were not errors, then why, pray tell, did the Almighty reprimand him? Is God unfair? Are these people prepared to accuse God, tacitly albeit, of injustice in order to vindicate Muhammad and God, hallowed be His Name, Al-Haq, is the very essence of justice? This is indeed exceeding strange! Again, the Qur'an gives us the truth. Chapter 41, Fussilat, verse 6, commands "Say, 'I am no more than a human like you who receives inspiration that your God is one God. You shall be devoted to Him and ask His forgiveness. Woe to the idol-worshippers." It is significant that the warning phrase 'woe to the idol-worshippers' is used in the verse which instructs Muhammad to tell his people that he is a human just like them.

The Qur'an also tells us that Muhammad not only erred and was reprimanded, as stated above, but also that he was capable of the worst error of all, idolatry, which would have caused him to end up in Hell; thus chapter 39, Az-Zumar, verse 65 states "It has been revealed to you and to those before you that if you ever commit idolatry all your works shall be nullified and you shall be among the losers." Why would God issue such a stern warning to Muhammad if he were not capable of, or was immune to, idol-worship? God's words, be He exalted far above what they say, are not hollow.

Wisdom separate from the Qur'an
As stated earlier, Islamic scholars claim that Hadeeth is the 'wisdom' referred to in the Qur'an, and that it is distinct from the Qur'an. Chapter 17, Bani-Isra'eel, verse 39 should disabuse them. It reads "This is part of the wisdom revealed to you by your Lord. You shall not set up with God another God, lest you be thrown into Hell, blamed and defeated." What else besides the Qur'an did God reveal to His Messenger? God Himself mentions nothing! Note also that this verse warns Muhammad against idol-worship, further proof that he was a mere mortal capable of the worst of offences.

Moreover, God Himself refers to the Qur'an as "Hakeem" (endowed with wisdom). Let us read chapter 10, Yunus, verse 1, "A. L. R. These are the proofs of this Book of wisdom"; chapter 31, Luqman, verse 1 and 2, "(1)A. L. M. (2)These are the proofs of this Book endowed with wisdom" and chapter 36, Ya Seen, verse 1 and 2, "(1) Y. S. (2) And the Qur'an endowed with wisdom." Need we say more? Why God would send down the scripture devoid of wisdom - and yet He, in His wisdom, describes it as 'hakeem' - and then proceed to send down the wisdom separately, is hard to comprehend. What else is one to think if the book and wisdom are two separate things?

Be that as it may; we, however, cite one last verse to put this matter to rest. In chapter 43, Az-Zukhruf, verse 4, God states "And It is preserved at Us in the original, exalted and endowed with wisdom." Any further argument to the effect that the wisdom is separate from the Qur'an would defy all logic and, worse still, fly in the face of the Qur'anic evidence heretofore adduced.

At this point it would be appropriate to clear a few matters relating to the wisdom inherent in the Qur'an and its acquisition by the reader and to knowledge of the Qur'an Itself. Is it possible to read the Qur'an and not acquire wisdom?

Yes! if you are a disbeliever.

Chapter 41, Fussilat, verse 44 states "If We had made this a non-Arabic Qur'an, they would have said 'why were Its verses not detailed?' Arabic and non-Arabic; Say 'It is, for those who believe, guidance and healing; as for those who do not believe, there is deafness in their ears and for them It is blindness.'

It is as though these are being called from a distant place." Here, blindness is allegorical for lack of wisdom. The fact is that only the believer will gain wisdom from the Qur'an. The infidel will not only not gain wisdom, but he will be misled.

The Qur'an is unlike any other book in the universe; it is the very word of the Almighty Creator, and only He can teach it. God also tells us that He will explain it. Chapter 55, Ar-Rahman, verse 1, says: "The Almighty taught the Qur'an."

In order to know and understand the Qur'an and thus gain wisdom from It, one must first sincerely ask God for His help to understand It, then go back to the Qur'an Itself. Thus at chapter 2, Al-Baqarah, verses 2 and 3, God tells us, in part: "(2) This Book, which is free of doubt, is a guidance to the righteous (3) who, in good faith, believe..." Thus the Qur'an is a guidance only to those who accept It without requiring proof of Its credentials, that is, those who accept It in good faith.

A close examination of 'accepting in good faith' reveals that only three things need be accepted without proof: (a) that the Qur'an is divine revelation, (b) that It is complete and (c) that It is fully detailed. Once one accepts these three elements without proof thereof, the Qur'an, quite literally, opens up and becomes a guidance; one then experiences an 'explosion' of knowledge. Things suddenly, by the will of God, become clear.

Failure, on the other hand, to accept any one of these elements in good faith will result in the active intervention of the Almighty to prevent the seeker from gaining guidance from the Qur'an. The seeker will only be misled. This, God tells us at chapter 17, Bani Isra'eel, verses 45 and 46 "(45) When you read the Qur'an We place between you and those who do not believe in the Hereafter an invisible barrier. (46) We put shields upon their hearts to prevent them from understanding It, and deafness in their ears. And when you commemorate your Lord in the Qur'an alone they turn away in aversion."

Anyone who says that the Qur'an is not endowed with wisdom and that he needs Hadeeth to supply the wisdom is loudly proclaiming that he is not a believer!

We have, by God's will, addressed every one of the major arguments of the advocates of Hadeeth and put the underlying Qur'anic quotations in their right perspective and reinforced our counter arguments with other verses and with logical arguments that are incontrovertible.

There is only one major issue that we have not addressed, intercession. The advocates of Hadeeth assure us that the Messenger will intercede on our behalf with God on the Day of Judgment, but they do not quote any verses from the Qur'an to support their contention since there are none, but they depend instead on 'aHadeeth to back up their belief. There are several verses in the Qur'an that refer to intercession.

God says that only those who will be allowed by Him will intercede but He does not tell us who they are or under what circumstances. It is safe to assume that intercession will only be on behalf of believers. We do know, however, that the Prophet Muhammad will not intercede on behalf of his 'ummah', he will, instead, bear witness against them; the Qur'an tells us that at chapter 25, Al-Furqaan, verse 30 which states that, on the Day of Judgment, "And the Messenger said, 'My Lord, my people have abandoned this Qur'an.'"

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danas
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#61

Post by danas » 12/12/2006 14:26

KOGOD KADGOD wrote:
danas wrote:hajde sve na stranu, al' sto sve udari velikim slovima... ko da se dere na nas... :-) :-) :-)
@danas, ti bar treba da znas razliku izmedju "deranja" i naglasavanja najvaznijeg dijela teksta, tj. srzi teksta.

Velika slova se koriste u CHAT ROOM-u kao "deranje" a u obicnom pisanom tekstu kao naglasavanje, da bi se jedan kljucni dio rzlikovao od ostalog potpornog teksta.

Ovdje ko hoce da se "dere" i "prijeti" - to dovoljno jasno cini i malim slovima (nazalost).
kada neko napise 99% poduzeg teksta velikim slovima, malo je teze razaznati sta je to 'kljucni' dio teksta a sta je ko biva taj 'potporni' dio... i zato izgleda 'ko da se dere'... ucenjakinja kao ti bi mogla makar procitati napisano... :-)

KOGOD KADGOD
Posts: 789
Joined: 17/11/2006 02:53

#62

Post by KOGOD KADGOD » 12/12/2006 14:35

danas wrote:
KOGOD KADGOD wrote:
danas wrote:hajde sve na stranu, al' sto sve udari velikim slovima... ko da se dere na nas... :-) :-) :-)
@danas, ti bar treba da znas razliku izmedju "deranja" i naglasavanja najvaznijeg dijela teksta, tj. srzi teksta.

Velika slova se koriste u CHAT ROOM-u kao "deranje" a u obicnom pisanom tekstu kao naglasavanje, da bi se jedan kljucni dio rzlikovao od ostalog potpornog teksta.

Ovdje ko hoce da se "dere" i "prijeti" - to dovoljno jasno cini i malim slovima (nazalost).
kada neko napise 99% poduzeg teksta velikim slovima, malo je teze razaznati sta je to 'kljucni' dio teksta a sta je ko biva taj 'potporni' dio... i zato izgleda 'ko da se dere'... ucenjakinja kao ti bi mogla makar procitati napisano... :-)
Vidis da se nastavlja tekst iz prijethodnog posta, samo je odvojen posto sadrzi zakljucke...

Da li si ikada priznala kada nesto pretjeras, olahko procijenis ili jednostavno pogrijesis? Bas me zanima.
Sposobnost za to puno govori o osobi. Zaista si bistra osoba, ne mozes reci da "nisi razumjela", zasto sebe prikazujes kakvom nisi? Tek iz dosade? Da malo "zaguzvas" raspravu? Sta god da je - ne stoji ti fino.

Tu sklonost prema trazenju "konflikta" tamo gdje ga nema sam vec primjetila u dovoljno postova da mogu reci da bi bila puno produktivnija u doprinosu forumu kada bi sa drugima podijelila ono sto znas radije nego ih "navlacila" u neke beskrajne ping-pong karikaturne "rasprave".

Ipak, ako tebi to godi - bujrum. Niko nije obavezan da ti odgovara. :)

ztluhcs
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#63

Post by ztluhcs » 12/12/2006 14:41

@danas je ovèica u vuèijoj ko¾i... :D

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danas
Posts: 18803
Joined: 11/03/2005 19:40
Location: 10th circle...

#64

Post by danas » 12/12/2006 14:47

KOGOD KADGOD wrote:
danas wrote:
KOGOD KADGOD wrote: @danas, ti bar treba da znas razliku izmedju "deranja" i naglasavanja najvaznijeg dijela teksta, tj. srzi teksta.

Velika slova se koriste u CHAT ROOM-u kao "deranje" a u obicnom pisanom tekstu kao naglasavanje, da bi se jedan kljucni dio rzlikovao od ostalog potpornog teksta.

Ovdje ko hoce da se "dere" i "prijeti" - to dovoljno jasno cini i malim slovima (nazalost).
kada neko napise 99% poduzeg teksta velikim slovima, malo je teze razaznati sta je to 'kljucni' dio teksta a sta je ko biva taj 'potporni' dio... i zato izgleda 'ko da se dere'... ucenjakinja kao ti bi mogla makar procitati napisano... :-)
Vidis da se nastavlja tekst iz prijethodnog posta, samo je odvojen posto sadrzi zakljucke...

Da li si ikada priznala kada nesto pretjeras, olahko procijenis ili jednostavno pogrijesis? Bas me zanima.
Sposobnost za to puno govori o osobi. Zaista si bistra osoba, ne mozes reci da "nisi razumjela", zasto sebe prikazujes kakvom nisi? Tek iz dosade? Da malo "zaguzvas" raspravu? Sta god da je - ne stoji ti fino.

Tu sklonost prema trazenju "konflikta" tamo gdje ga nema sam vec primjetila u dovoljno postova da mogu reci da bi bila puno produktivnija u doprinosu forumu kada bi sa drugima podijelila ono sto znas radije nego ih "navlacila" u neke beskrajne ping-pong karikaturne "rasprave".

Ipak, ako tebi to godi - bujrum. Niko nije obavezan da ti odgovara. :)

jooojjj.... nema razloga da mi podilazis a vala ni da mi dajes savjete, i mozda je najbolje da zaboravis da sam ista rekla... samo sam ti htjela skrenuti paznju na cinjenicu da kada napises dugacak post i to velikim slovima, ljudima je mrsko citati jer izgleda KAO da se deres... nisam rekla da SE deres... to je to -- nista manje i nista vise... imas evo primjer kako je lakse i razumljivije koristiti velika slova u svrhu u koji tu kazes da ih koristis.. eto, allahimanet...

Sarafcina
Posts: 2260
Joined: 19/09/2005 00:59

#65

Post by Sarafcina » 13/12/2006 00:33

@KGKG
053:003. On ne govori po hiru svome

imas li sta o ovome? ;)

ne znam ima li svrhe komentarisati tekst, ako mi nema niko odgovarati na komentare,
ali u svakom slucaju.... istoricari su isto tako ljudi koji biljeze ;)
ne kontam zasto njima vjerujes, a ne vjerujes Buhariji, odnosno nekome ko klasificira hadis. u principu, klasificiranje hadisa je mnogo strozije (time i preciznije ispitivanje validnosti informacije) nego sto je to slucaj sa istorijom.
Ako se neko poziva na hadis ("zabranjeno zapisivati...") i smatra ga tacnim, onda je lud ako pravi takvu selekciju pa priznaje sto mu odgovara, a ostalo odbacuje.
Ako je to pitanje za one koji priznaju hadise, onda nadji bilo koju knjigu i dobices tumacenje tog hadisa koje ce....... pobiti tvoj supljak. recimo da se zabrana odnosila striktno na to vrijeme. i sta sad? vec si izgubila jedino uporiste.... ili ako je hadis klasificiran kao slab, to je isti slucaj.

jednostavno, ako hadise posmatramo striktno kao informaciju, onda ti Kur'anom mozes opravdati njihovo koristenje, a to je i radjeno cijelo vrijeme na taj nacin. Koristeni su. To sto se nakon 1400 godina "mraka", pojavljuje "neko pametan" da nam svima objasni sta je to pravi islam..... to je onako... bas malo vehabijski ;) zar ne :). taman, samo nam jos vi falite...

Tvoje optuzbe (odnosno ovoga ko je pisao engleski tekst) na racun ashaba koliko ja znam kontradiktiraju samom Kur'anu, pa da ne idemo dalje sa vasim kontradikcijama ;).

fakat mislim da je vakat da odustanes ;)

KOGOD KADGOD
Posts: 789
Joined: 17/11/2006 02:53

#66

Post by KOGOD KADGOD » 13/12/2006 01:11

Sarafcina wrote:@KGKG
053:003. On ne govori po hiru svome

imas li sta o ovome? ;)

ne znam ima li svrhe komentarisati tekst, ako mi nema niko odgovarati na komentare,
ali u svakom slucaju.... istoricari su isto tako ljudi koji biljeze ;)
ne kontam zasto njima vjerujes, a ne vjerujes Buhariji, odnosno nekome ko klasificira hadis. u principu, klasificiranje hadisa je mnogo strozije (time i preciznije ispitivanje validnosti informacije) nego sto je to slucaj sa istorijom.
Ako se neko poziva na hadis ("zabranjeno zapisivati...") i smatra ga tacnim, onda je lud ako pravi takvu selekciju pa priznaje sto mu odgovara, a ostalo odbacuje.
Ako je to pitanje za one koji priznaju hadise, onda nadji bilo koju knjigu i dobices tumacenje tog hadisa koje ce....... pobiti tvoj supljak. recimo da se zabrana odnosila striktno na to vrijeme. i sta sad? vec si izgubila jedino uporiste.... ili ako je hadis klasificiran kao slab, to je isti slucaj.

jednostavno, ako hadise posmatramo striktno kao informaciju, onda ti Kur'anom mozes opravdati njihovo koristenje, a to je i radjeno cijelo vrijeme na taj nacin. Koristeni su. To sto se nakon 1400 godina "mraka", pojavljuje "neko pametan" da nam svima objasni sta je to pravi islam..... to je onako... bas malo vehabijski ;) zar ne :). taman, samo nam jos vi falite...

Tvoje optuzbe (odnosno ovoga ko je pisao engleski tekst) na racun ashaba koliko ja znam kontradiktiraju samom Kur'anu, pa da ne idemo dalje sa vasim kontradikcijama ;).

fakat mislim da je vakat da odustanes ;)
"053:003. On ne govori po hiru svome"

pa ne govori Qur'an po hiru svome nego kako mu je naredjeno i objavljeno... zar je to tesko shvatiti? :?

po tvom se odnosi na njegov svakodnevni zivot i govor...

sta je govorio ljudima javno O VJERI je uvijek u skladu sa Qur'anom,

Kada su pricali o svakodnevnim stvarima, ko je gdje bio, kako su hurme rodile, sta je ko vidio, pa zar ti stvarno ne mozes da okom svoga uma vidis kako su ljudi zivjeli, radili, u tom dobu?... Zar stvarno mislis da se on nije ponasao kao normalan covjek? Zar stvarno mislis da je samo o vjeri pricao 24/7?... Tako biva kada ljudi idoliziraju insana...

P Muhammed a.s. je jeo i spavao i sa znenama svojim opcio, i sa jaranima se salio, i odmarao u sred dana (kao sto je adet bio) radi najvece vrucine, i davao savjete trgovcima iz svog dugogodisnjeg iskustva, i ucestvovao u trkama kamila, i ... i...

(Boze oprosti im... a pejgamber ce takvima odgovoriti na Sudnjem danu...)

Vidi, ja se ne RASPRAVLJAM S TOBOM licno ni o cemu, iznijela sam svoje misljenje, iznio si ti svoje, drugi svoje (osim ako ne koristis vise nck-ova sto je izgleda moda ovdje) i to je sve :-) .

Ponovila sam toliko puta, NEMOJ se sloziti sa mnom, ja s tobom ne mogu, i svako sebi. :roll: Zelim ti svako dobro, dovoljno je receno da se oni koji prate mogu zamisliti nad tvojim stavom, nad mojim, nad svakim i dalje sami potraziti informacije o tome.

Diskusija se ne mora neophodno zavrsiti sa nekim "pobjednikom" nije to SVRHA diskusije, svrha je da se pomenu teme i misljenja koja do sad nisu mozda pomenuta da bi ljudi imali priliku da znaju da ima i drugih misljenja osim onih "tradicionalno" prihvacenih.

Ne ubjedjujem ja tebe ni u sta, vjeruj sta hoces, ba, sta je s tobom? :?

Moj cilj nije da izazivam konflikt kao tvoj, nego da se iznesu razlicita misljenja i to i jeste FORUM. Meni je ZAO sto su vecina takvi, posvadjali bi se oko bilo cega a to samo Sejtanu prokletom pase, sve ti apludira usput. :(

Ostani pri svome, ali sta si zapeo da mene ubjedjujes? :? :shock:
Meni to ne treba, to sto ti sada tvrdis i sama sam nekad tvrdila i iste argumente iznosila (vise da bih, kao i ti, sebe ubjedila da sam u pravu).

Ja znam sto ja znam, (sto vise Qur'an proucavam sve sam sigurnija, i sve se vise divim Njemu) i ti mozes ovdje da se crvenis :x koliko hoces, zaista u meni nisi ni zerru ljutnje proizveo.

Hvala ti na ucestvovanju u temi koju sam otvorila, mir s tobom i Bozija Uputa. :-D

P.S.

Ako imas argumenata koje bi dodao kao potporu za svoj stav - nastavi. Po mogucnosti sa vise ajeta.

Ja tek pocinjem iznositi izvore svojig argumenata, do sada sam samo svojim rijecima i jednostavno isznosila svoj stav - argumenti tek dolaze :)
inshallah.

KOGOD KADGOD
Posts: 789
Joined: 17/11/2006 02:53

#67

Post by KOGOD KADGOD » 13/12/2006 01:15

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THE IDOLIZATION OF MUHAMMAD


Refusing to believe God in His repeated assertions that the QURAN IS COMPLETE, PERFECT, & SHALL BE THE ONLY SOURCE of religious guidance, and following the conjecture known as Hadith & Sunna constitutes deification of the prophet Muhammad against his will.

"Say (O Muhammad), 'If the ocean were ink for the words of my Lord, the ocean would have run out before my Lord runs out of words, even if we supplied twice as much ink.' Say (O Muhammad), 'I am no more than a human being like you. It has been revealed to me that your God is ONE GOD. Thus, anyone who looks forward to meeting his Lord shall lead a righteous life, and NEVER SET UP ANY IDOLS beside his Lord.'" (18:109110)

These verses clearly inform us that God does not suffer from shortage of words; that He gave us ALL THE WORDS we need in this Quran, and that we should not seek the words of Muhammad, or anyone else, and that Muhammad is a man like other men; he should not be idolized (see end of verse).

QURAN: YOU SHALL NOT IDOLIZE MUHAMMAD

There are only two verses in Quran that describe the prophet Muhammad as "no more than a human being like you."

IS IT COINCIDENCE THAT BOTH VERSES FORBID IDOLATRY AT THE END OF EACH VERSE ??

The first verse is shown on the previous page, and the second verse is shown below:

"Say (O Muhammad), 'I am no more than a human being like you. It has been revealed to me that your God is ONE GOD. Therefore, you shall observe Him ALONE, and ask His forgiveness, AND WOE TO THE IDOLWORSHIPERS.'" (41:6)

The true believers believe their Lord in His statements that QURAN IS COMPLETE, PERFECT, FULLY DETAILED, AND SHALL BE THE SOLE SOURCE OF RELIGIOUS GUIDANCE. Only the idolworshipers will seek other than Quran. Following "Hadith & Sunna" is idolization of the prophet Muhammad against his will.

THE ABUSE OF QURAN

"God and His angels encourage the prophet. O you who believe, you too shall encourage him, and support him completely." (33:56)

This is by far the most abused verse in the whole Quran. Through satanic distortions, ignorance, and idolworship, this verse causes millions of Muslims to glorify the prophet against his will, instead of glorifying God.

People who sing the praises of this particular verse day and night are obviously ignorant of two important facts:

(1) The word "Naby = prophet " when referring to the prophet Muhammad ALWAYS refers to him when he was alive; not after his death.

(2) In the same Sura, and 13 verses ahead of this verse, we find that God nd His angels do the same honoring for ALL THE BELIEVERS.

"God and His angels encourage the believers, to take them out of darkness . Into the light." (33:43)

THE ABUSE OF QURAN

Verse 103 of Sura 9 further clarifies the meaning of the words "SSALLOO" and "YUSSALLEE." In this verse, we see that the Prophet is commanded to "YUSSALLEE" for the believers, just as they are asked to do for him in verse 56 of Sura 33 (see Page 20).

"Take (O Muhammad) a portion of their money for charity, in order to purify them and sanctify them, and encourage them (SSALLEE 'ALAYHIM) for your encouragement is a consolation for them. God is hearer, omniscient." (9:103).

Thus, the true meaning of this expression is "encourage," and NOT "praise day and night" as those who abuse the Quran have indicated.

SUMMARY

1. God and His angels encourage the believers, to take them out of darkness into the light (33:43).

2. God and His angels encourage the Prophet during his life to keep him on the right path (33:56).

3. The believers are asked to support the Prophet during his life (33:56), and the Prophet does the same for the believers (9:103).

THE ABUSE OF QURAN

"In the messenger of God, you have a good example; a good example for those who are seeking God and the Last day, and commemorate God frequently." (33:21)

Satan used this verse to claim a special status for the idolization of Muhammad, and to convince the people of the necessity of Sunna (traditions) of the prophet.

There is no doubt that the prophet Muhammad is our best example. And his example is set by upholding Quran, and nothing but Quran.

Obviously, those who fell in Satan's trap are ignorant of the fact that ABRAHAM IS DESCRIBED IN QURAN IN THE SAME WORDS; word for word.

"In Abraham and those who believed with him, you have a good example; for those who are seeking God and the Last day." (60:4, 6)

DOES GOD HATE MUHAMMAD ???

Of course not. But when you repeat the same things that God says about Muhammad in Quran, they accuse you of hating Muhammad.

Similarly, when you tell the Christians that Jesus is a human being and a messenger of God, they accuse you of hating Jesus.

MUHAMMAD CANNOT GUIDE ANYONE (28:56)

"You (Muhammad) cannot guide even the ones you love. God is the one who guides whomever He wills, for He knows best those who deserve the guidance." (28:56)

The sole function of the prophet was to deliver Quran without any alteration, addition, reduction, or explanation.

Please see pages 2935.

THE TRUE LOVE OF MUHAMMAD

The true love of Jesus is to recognize him as a human and a messenger of God. The Christians love Jesus so much, yet he disowns them on the Day of Judgment (Matthew 7:23 and Quran 5:116).

The true love of Muhammad is to recognize him as a human and to follow his teachings, i.e., UPHOLD QURAN AND NOTHING BUT QURAN. Those who follow "Hadith & Sunna" are named as Muhammad's enemies, and Muhammad disowns them on the Day of Judgment as we see below:

"(On the day of judgment) the messenger will say, 'My Lord; my people have deserted THIS QURAN.' We thus set up against every prophet enemies from among the guilty. Your LORD SUFFICES AS A GUIDE AND SUPPORTER." (25:3031)

Please note the "word for word" similarity between verse 31 above, and verse 112 or Sura 6 which deals specifically with "Hadith."

God is the one who created you; God is the one who provides for you; God is the one who terminates your life; God is the one who resurrects you; God is the one who calls you to account. Muhammad does none of these things (see 30:40).

MUHAMMAD DOES NOT KNOW THE FUTURE

"Say (O Muhammad), 'I do not bring anything new that is different from any other messenger. I have no idea what may happen to me, or to you. I simply follow what is revealed to me. I am no more than a manifest warner.'" (46:9)

"Say (O Muhammad), 'I possess no power to benefit or harm even myself, except in accordance with God's will. (Nor do I know the future); had I known the future, I would have increased my wealth, and no harm would have afflicted me. I am no more than a warner, as well as bearer of good news for those who believe.'" (7:188)

MUHAMMAD DOES NOT KNOW THE FUTURE

Yet, hundreds of "Hadiths" narrate future events that have nothing to do with Quran, and represent personal predictions.

One of the most prominent "Hadiths" is shown below:

"You shall uphold my Sunna (traditions), and the Sunna of the 'guided Khalifas' (AlKhulafaa' AlRashideen) who will come after me."

It should be noted that the expression "AlKhulafaa' AlRashideen" did not appear in Arabic literature until 200 years after the prophet; it is a modern expression.

How did the prophet know that there will be "Khulafaa'" who will succeed him, and how did he know that they will be called "AlKhulafaa' AlRashideen"?

The Expression "AlKhulafaa' AlRashideen" refers specifically to the four Khalifas: Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, and Ali. It was not known for two centuries after the prophet.

THE MYTH OF INTERCESSION

Intercession is one of Satan's most effective tricks to dupe the people into idolizing their prophets and/or saints.

Although the Quran repeatedly states that there will be no intercession on the day of judgment, many Muslims were duped, through "Hadith & Sunna" into idolizing the prophet Muhammad against his will, and inventing the concept of INTERCESSION (Shafaa'ah):

"Spend from our provisions to you before a day comes wherein there will be no trade, no nepotism, and NO INTERCESSION." (2:254)

"The prophets simply follow the commandments of God. He knows their past and future. THEY CANNOT INTERCEDE EXCEPT ON BEHALF OF THOSE ALREADY SAVED BY GOD. The prophets themselves worry about their own fate." (21:28)



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THE DEIFICATION OF MUHAMMAD


THE MYTH OF INTERCESSION

Despite the Quran's repeated assertions that Muhammad possesses no power to benefit anyone or harm anyone (see Page 25, & Page 30), Satan succeeded in duping many people through the concept of intercession. Satan convinced his victims that Muhammad will actually take them out of hell, and admit them into heaven!

Many socalled "Muslims" extend the concept of intercession to include numerous saints and/or imams:

"They idolize beside God those who possess no power to harm them or benefit them, and say, 'These are our intercessors at God.' Say, 'Are you informing God of something He does not know in the heavens or the earth?' Glory be to Him; He is much too high to have any partners." (10:18)

THE DEIFICATION OF MUHAMMAD

THE MYTH OF MUHAMMAD THE INTERCESSOR

The concept of intercession implies that God has some partners who intercede with Him on behalf of people.

Therefore, intercession is idol worship, and those who believe that Muhammad will intercede on behalf of anyone are idolizing the Prophet against his will. Intercession by Muhammad is prevalent in the Satanic innovations known as Hadith and/or Sunna.

The Quran clearly identifies intercession as idol worship, and declares a GREAT CRITERION; that those who believe in intercession cannot stand to talk about God alone; THEY HAVE TO MENTION THEIR IDOLS ALONG.

"Say, 'To God belongs ALL INTERCESSION. To Him belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, then to Him you will be returned.' When GOD ALONE is advocated, the hearts of those who do not believe in the hereafter shrink with aversion. But when idols are mentioned along with Him, they become satisfied." (39:45)

MUHAMMAD WILL NOT CALL YOU TO ACCOUNT

"Your ONLY mission (O Muhammad) is to deliver (Quran), while it is we who will call them to account." (13:40)

MUHAMMAD CANNOT BENEFIT YOU OR HARM YOU

"Say (O Muhammad), 'I possess no power to harm myself, or benefit myself.'" (10:49)

"Say (O Muhammad), 'I possess no power to harm you, or benefit you through guiding you.'" (72:21)

Thus, the prophet will not put you in Paradise, nor can he take you out of hell, nor will he call you to account before him, nor can he benefit you, nor can he harm you; HIS SOLE MISSION WAS DELIVERING QURAN, & NOTHING BUT QURAN. To love him and honor him is to follow Quran alone, and reject the fabrications attributed to him.

FUNCTIONS OF EVERY MESSENGER

YOU SHALL NOT WORSHIP EXCEPT GOD

Neither Jesus, nor Muhammad, want to be idolized. Their sole function was to preach the worship of GOD ALONE.

"Every messenger we sent before you was instructed to preach that there is no god except Me; you shall worship Me alone. Then they said, 'God most gracious has begotten a son.' Glory be to Him; all the messengers are no more than honored servants. They do not speak on their own; they simply follow His commands. He knows their past and their future, and they possess no power to intercede except on behalf of those already approved by God. The messengers themselves are worried about their own fate. And, if any of them claims to be a god beside God, we will punish him in hell; we thus punish the wicked." (21:2529)



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SOLE FUNCTION OF THE PROPHET: DELIVER QURAN


Repeatedly, the Quran employs "the double negative" to emphasize that Muhammad had NO function EXCEPT delivering Quran:

"You have NO duty EXCEPT delivering (Quran)" (42:48)

"Your ONLY duty is delivering (Quran), while we will call them to account." (13:40)

"The messenger has NO function EXCEPT delivering (Quran) and God knows whatever you declare, as well as whatever you conceal. Say, 'The good and the bad are not the same, despite the abundance of the bad.' Therefore, you shall observe God, O you who possess intelligence, that you may succeed." (5:99100)

Unfortunately, those who refuse to believe that Quran is the ONLY SOURCE OF RELIGIOUS GUIDANCE are much more abundant than those who believe. (see also 16:35, 82; 24:54; 29:18; 36:17; & 64:12)

MUHAMMAD DOES NOT EXPLAIN, INTERPRET,

OR ANTICIPATE QURAN; JUST DELIVER & FOLLOW.

Hadith & Sunna advocates claim that Hadith & Sunna are needed to explain Quran. However, Quran teaches that God is the teacher of Quran; that God will put Quran into the hearts of believers regardless of their mother tongue; and that Muhammad will not explain Quran. Documents are shown below:

"God is the teacher of Quran." (55:12)

"Whether it came down in nonArabic or Arabic, say, 'For those who believe, it is a guidance and healing. As for the disbelievers, they will be deaf and blind to it.'" (41:44)

"Do not move your tongue (O Muhammad) in anticipation of Quran. It is we who put it together as a Quran. Once we recite it, you shall follow it. Then, it is we who explain it." (75:1619)

THE FOLLOWERS OF HADITH & SUNNA DO NOT FOLLOW THEIR OWN TEACHINGS

The most authoritative books of Hadith, namely, Muslim & Ibn Hanbal, report that the Prophet ordered that no one shall take anything from him EXCEPT QURAN. Shown below is the Arabic text of this Hadith:



"Abi Saeed AlKhudry may God be pleased with him reported that the messenger of God may God exalt him & grant him peace had said, 'Do not write anything from me EXCEPT QURAN. Anyone who wrote anything other than Quran shall erase it.'" !!!

Thus, according to their own teachings,

THEY DISOBEY THE PROPHET

INCREDIBLE FACT: THEY DO NOT FOLLOW THEIR OWN TEACHINGS

According to the most "authoritative" sources of Hadith, the Prophet never changed his mind about writing from him ONLY QURAN:



Zayd Ibn Thabit (the Prophet's closest revelation writer) visited the Khalifa Mu'aawiya (more than 30 years after the Prophet's death), and told him a story about the Prophet. Mu'aawiya liked the story and ordered someone to write it down. But Zayd said, "The messenger of God ordered us never to write anything of his Hadith." (Reported by Ibn Hanbal)

THEY DISOBEY THEIR OWN FABRICATED IDOL !! =======================================

QURAN: DO THEY HAVE A "BOOK" WHERE

THEY FIND ANYTHING THEY WISH ?

When you confront the followers of Hadith & Sunna with the Hadith shown on the previous page, they admit the existence of such Hadith. They explain their failure to follow their own teachings by the fact that there exist equally "authentic" Hadiths where the Prophet ordered the writing of his Hadiths!!

The Quran describes such people as "criminals," and asks: "Do they have a 'Book' where they can find anything they wish???"

"Shall we treat the Muslims like the criminals? What is wrong with your judgment? DO YOU HAVE A BOOK WHERE YOU CAN FIND ANYTHING YOU WISH?"

Both Hadith and Sunna fit this Quranic description; as a "Book where you can find anything you wish."

The conjectural and contradictory nature of Hadith and Sunna are unanimously recognized.



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THEIR FAVORITE QUESTION


"If Quran is complete and fully detailed (as God says), where can we find the details of Salat prayers?"

This famous question reveals their total ignorance of Quran and a subconscious effort to prove that God is wrong in His repeated assertions that Quran is "complete" and "fully detailed."

For the Quran teaches in no uncertain terms that Abraham is the founder of Islam as it is practiced today. As such, what did Abraham contribute to our daily life as Muslims?

The Quran teaches that ALL RELIGIOUS PRACTICES IN ISLAM (Salat, Zakat, Fasting & Hajj) CAME TO US FROM ABRAHAM, GENERATION AFTER GENERATION.

Thus, Islam in its final form, as is practiced today, is based on two things: (1) QURAN: contributed through Muhammad, and (2) RELIGIOUS PRACTICES: through Abraham.

ALL RELIGIOUS PRACTICES IN ISLAM EXISTED BEFORE MUHAMMAD.

Muhammad's SOLE FUNCTION was to deliver Quran (see Pages 3033).

ABRAHAM: THE FOUNDER OF ISLAM

Abraham was the first recipient of the concept of ISLAM, and the first user of the word "MUSLIM" (see 2:131).

"You shall strive in the cause of God as you should. He has blessed you, and imposed no hardship in your religion; the RELIGION OF YOUR FATHER ABRAHAM. Abraham is the one who named you 'Muslims' in the beginning. Thus, the messenger serves as witness among you, just as you serve as witnesses among the people. Therefore, you shall observe the Salat prayers, give the Zakat charity, and hold fast to God; He is you Lord; the best Lord, and the best supporter." (22:78)

Thus, if Abraham is the founder of Islam, did he contribute anything to our Islamic life?

The answer is: "YES; he contributed THE RELIGIOUS PRACTICES (Salat, Zakat, Fasting, & Hajj)."

ISLAM IS THE RELIGION OF ABRAHAM

While Muhammad's mission, sole mission, was delivering Quran, ALL RELIGIOUS PRACTICES CAME THROUGH ABRAHAM.

"They said, 'Be you Jews or Christians in order to be guided.' Say, 'We follow the religion of Abraham, monotheism; he never was an idolworshiper.'" (2:135)

"Abraham was neither Jewish, nor Christian; he was a monotheist; a Muslim; he never was an idolworshiper. The people most worthy of following Abraham are those who followed him, and this prophet (Muhammad), and those who believed. God is the Lord of the believers." (3:6768)

MUHAMMAD WAS A FOLLOWER OF ABRAHAM

"Then we inspired you (O Muhammad) to follow the religion of Abraham, monotheism; never was he an idolworshiper." (16:123)

Logically, if Muhammad was a follower of Abraham, and we are followers of Muhammad, then we are followers of Abraham. What did we learn from Abraham???

The Quran teaches that we learned all the religious practices of Islam from Abraham. This includes Salat, Zakat, fasting, and Hajj.

Therefore, ISLAM IS BASED ON TWO THINGS:

(1) QURAN: THROUGH MUHAMMAD

(2) RELIGIOUS PRACTICES: VIA ABRAHAM

SALAT PRACTICED BY MUHAMMAD'S OPPONENTS

The whole Arabian society before and during the time of Muhammad followed the religion of Abraham. Thus, Abu Lahab, Abu Jahl, and the idolaters of Quraish used to observe the FIVE DAILY SALAT PRAYERS exactly as we do today, with the single exception of substituting the Quranic Faatihha for the Ibrahimy Faatihha.

"God was not to punish them while you (Muhammad) were still among them. God was not to punish them while they are seeking forgiveness. Yet, they fully deserved God's punishment for repelling from the sacred mosque, though they were not the guardians thereof; only the righteous are guardians thereof, but most of them do not know. THEIR SALAT PRAYERS at the shrine were no more than deceit and repulsion. Therefore, suffer the retribution for your disbelief." (8:3335)

SACRED MONTHS OBSERVED BEFORE MUHAMMAD

The four sacred months in Islam were observed before the time of Muhammad. This further proves that all religious practices of Islam were neither initiated, nor taught by the Prophet Muhammad; his sole mission was to deliver Quran.

"The count of months according to God is twelve, as shown in God's scriptures, since the day He created the heavens and the earth. Four of them are sacred. This is the right religion; therefore, do not wrong your souls during the four months. But you may fight the idolaters, if they attack you therein, and know that God is with the righteous. The practice of alternating the sacred months is a pagan practice. Thus, they changed the sacred months, making them violable one year and sacred the next year, as if to maintain the count instituted by God......" (9:3637)

TODAY'S IDOLATERS vs QURAISH'S IDOLATERS

Millions of "Muslims" today practice a form of idolatry that is similar to the idolatry of preMuhammad Quraish.

Millions of "Muslims" in Egypt, Iran, Pakistan, India, and may other countries go to the Mosque to pray. Their Salat prayers are definitely to God. After finishing their Salat, they visit the tomb of the saint and ask for health, wealth, and/or children.

The idol worshipers of Quraish observed the five Salat prayers exactly as we do today, but they also visited their idols Allat, Al'Uzzah, Manat, etc., to ask for health, wealth, and/or children.

Thus, the flagrant idolatry practiced by millions of Muslims today is exactly identical to the idolatry of Quraish before and during the time of Muhammad; only the idols are different.

Except for the Jewish and Christian minorities, the Arabian society prior to the mission of Muhammad followed the religion of Abraham. They practiced all the religious duties of Islam. Their Salat prayers were identical to ours, but they also practiced idolworship. The "Muslim" masses today practice idolworship by idolizing the Prophet against his will, by idolizing their saints and holy men or imams, and following other sources beside Quran (see pages 7 & 8).


"YOU SHALL KEEP THE OBSERVANCE OF SALAT"

This commandment was issued during the first few weeks of Quranic revelation.

DOES IT MAKE ANY SENSE THAT GOD WOULD ISSUE A COMMANDMENT TO OBSERVE SOMETHING NOT ALREADY KNOWN ???


"...and keep the observance of Salat and Zakat, and lend to God a loan of righteousness. Whatever you advance for your souls, you will find at God better and multiplied manyfold. And seek God's forgiveness; God is forgiving, merciful." (73:20)


The word "Salat" is very specific and means only one thing, i.e., the observance of specific practices involving bowing and prostration. This is true throughout Quran, throughout the ages, and in relation to any prophet, messenger, etc.

ALL RELIGIOUS PRACTICES IN ISLAM (SALAT ZAKAT FASTING HAJJ) CAME TO US THROUGH ABRAHAM

In 2:128 we see Abraham and Ismail implore God to teach them "THE RELIGIOUS PRACTICES OF ISLAM."


"As Abraham raised the foundations of Kaaba, together with Ismail, they prayed, 'Our Lord, accept this work from us; you are the hearer, the omniscient. Our Lord, & make us Muslims to you; and from our descendants let there be a nation of Muslims to you; AND TEACH US HOW TO PRACTICE OUR RELIGIOUS DUTIES, and redeem us; you are the redeemer, the merciful.'" (2:127128)


ABRAHAM: FIRST (and last) RECIPIENT OF SPECIFIC RELIGIOUS PRACTICES.

The prophets and messengers prior to Abraham were not given any religious practices. The human society was so primitive, only BELIEF IN GOD ALONE was all that is required for salvation. See for example Sura 71, entitled "Noah." Thus, RELIGIOUS PRACTICES appear in Quran ONLY after Abraham; never before him.


"(O Children of Israel,) you shall observe the Salat prayers & Zakat charity; you shall bow down with those who bow." (2:43)

"We made the Kaaba a focal point for all the people, and a sanctuary; thus, you shall consider this station of Abraham a place of worship. And we appointed Abraham and Ismail to purify My shrine for those who would visit it, those who would retreat therein, and those who bow and prostrate." (2:125)

SALAT PRAYERS OBSERVED BEFORE MUHAMMAD

But the Jews and Christians "LOST" the Salat prayers.


"O Mary, you shall obey your Lord, and you shall prostrate and bow down with those who bow down." (3:43)


"(Jesus said,) God has made me blessed wherever I go, and He commanded me to observe the Salat prayers and Zakat charity for as long as I live." (19:31)


"Generations came thereafter who LOST the Salat prayers, and pursued their lusts." (19:59)


There are remnants of the Salat prayers among the Jews, namely, the Samaritans, and the Christians (the Russian Orthodox Church). It is noteworthy that the Samaritan Jews have denounced the manmade commandments of Talmud, and decided to adhere to the word of God alone, i.e., Torah (see "The Myth of God Incarnate", Page 117).


SALAT & ZAKAT CAME TO US VIA ABRAHAM

Those who refuse to believe God are challenging Quran by asking, "If Quran is complete and fully detailed (as stated in 6:19, 38, & 114), where can we find the details of Salat and Zakat?" For such people, who are obviously isolated from Quran (see 18:57), we present the following Quranic truth:

"And we granted him (Abraham) Isaac and Jacob as a gift, and we made them righteous. And we appointed them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, AND WE TAUGHT THEM RIGHTEOUS WORKS AND THE OBSERVANCE OF SALAT AND ZAKAT." (21:7273)


Unfortunately, this plain Quranic truth is not accessible by those who keep trying to prove that Quran is not complete.

FIRST, they have to come to sincere conviction that Quran is complete, perfect, and fully detailed; they have to believe their Lord. Once they attain this conviction, the shields will be removed from around their hearts, the deafness will be removed from their ears, and they will become worthy of the Quranic truth.

FASTING CAME TO US VIA ABRAHAM

(then modified in Quran)


"You are permitted to have sexual intercourse with your wives during the night of fasting; they are your confidantes, and you are their confidants. God knew that YOU USED TO BETRAY YOUR SOULS (by having intercourse during the night) IN THE PAST. He has redeemed you, and He has pardoned you. HENCEFORTH, you may have intercourse with them, seeking what God has permitted for you." (part of 2:187)


This verse, therefore, clearly informs us that fasting was practiced before Muhammad according to the religion of Abraham (Islam).


When fasting as initially ordained through Abraham, sexual intercourse was prohibited throughout the fasting month of Ramadan, day and night.


HAJJ CAME TO US VIA ABRAHAM

Please note that the same verse also shows THE METHOD OF SALAT PRAYER (bowing & prostrating):

"We pointed out to Abraham the location of the shrine, and directed him to worship none beside Me, and to purify My shrine for those who would visit it, those who would retreat therein, and those who would bow and prostrate. And you shall declare (O Abraham) that the people shall observe Hajj. They will then come to you, walking or riding, from the farthest places." (22:2627)


Thus, Quran clearly teaches that ALL RELIGIOUS PRACTICES IN ISLAM (Salat, Zakat, Fasting, & Hajj) came to us via Abraham.


Quran teaches that God taught Abraham how to do Salat, Zakat, Fasting, & Hajj, then Abraham taught these practices to his children, and so on generation after generation.

THEY STILL INSIST

Even after showing all this Quranic evidence to those who do not believe God, you will note that they insist on their ways. Do not be surprised if they ask you after all this: "Where are the details of Salat prayers in Quran?"


Until they decide to believe their Creator in His repeated assertions that Quran is complete, they can never see the Quranic truth. This is documented below:



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CONSEQUENCES OF REFUSING TO BELIEVE QURAN


Deprivation from seeing, hearing, or understanding Quran. Thus, guidance becomes impossible:

"Who is more wicked than one who is reminded of the verses of his Lord, then disregards them, while unaware of his sin? Consequently, we place shields on their hearts, to prevent them from understanding (Quran), and deafness in their ears. Thus, if you invite them to the guidance, they can never ever be guided." (18:57)

TWO UNFORTUNATE FACTS OF LIFE

(1) The majority of people are disbelievers.

(2) The majority of BELIEVERS are going to hell.


"The majority of people, no matter what you do, are not believers." (12:103)

"And the majority of those who believe in God are idolworshipers." (12:106)

Thus, IF YOU ARE WITH MAJORITY, YOU ARE IN DEEP TROUBLE.


Even if you are with the majority of BELIEVERS, you are in deep trouble.


Those who worship GOD ALONE are a rare and extremely fortunate group; they are a minority of the minority.

PROBLEM IS: THEY THINK THEY ARE RIGHTEOUS


"Anyone who disregards the message of God most gracious, we appoint a devil to be his constant companion. The devils then divert them from the path, yet make them THINK that they are rightly guided." (43:3637)


"You shall be strictly righteous at every mosque, and worship God, devoting your worship absolutely to Him alone. Just as He created you initially, you will be returned. Some He guides. Others are committed to straying, for they take the devils as allies instead of God, and THINK that they are rightly guided." (7:2930)

"The worst losers are those who go astray, then THINK that they are rightly guided." (18:103104)

UNAWARE OF THEIR IDOL WORSHIP

The majority of "believers" fall into idolworship without realizing it; they are not aware that they are idolaters:

"On the day (of judgment) when we gather all the people, we will ask the idolworshipers, 'Where are your idols whom you set up beside God?' Then, their only answer will be, 'By God our Lord, we were not idolworshipers.' Note how they lied even to themselves, and note that the idols they had set up will abandon them." (6:2224)

Thus, there are people who are idolworshipers, who are unaware of their idolatry. Could you be one of them? How do you know that you are not one of them? This is your only chance to ascertain that you are not an idolworshiper.


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User avatar
giga
Posts: 429
Joined: 14/10/2002 00:00

#68

Post by giga » 13/12/2006 01:17

Svaka cast na temi i tekstu!

Ja sam "poderao" grlo razgovarajuci na ovu temu sa mnogim muslimanima koji hadis uzimaju "zdravo za gotovo" i vjeruju da je pored Kur'ana osnova vjerovanja u Islamu.

Nakon sto sam se upoznao sa historijom islamskog svijeta u nekoliko prvih vjekova njegovog postojanja, bilo mi je jasno da su hadisi (inace stvarani tek oko 200 godina nakon Muhammedove smrti) rezultat obicnog ljudskog izmisljanja.

Tu negdje je krenulo i moje udaljavanje od Islama, s tim da sam se kasnije suocio (dakle prvo odbacivsi hadise i okrenuvsi mnoge "prijatelje" muslimane protiv sebe) i sa dijelovima Kur'ana koje nisam mogao prihvatiti ovim Bogom danim razumom (proturjecja i povrsnost naspram nauke, odnos prema zeni, naglasavanje ratovanja sa opravdanim ubijanjem i robovanjem, odnos prema homoseksualcima, zastrasivanje paklenim/dzehenemskim mukama itd.).

I tako od Kur'ana, preko hadisa, Karen Armstrong, Ericha Fromma, Bertranda Rusella, Krleze, Fojerbaha, Einsteina, Biblije, Tore, Whitmana, Goldzihera itd. sve do danas, odustao sam od Islama i opcenito od religija za koje smatram da su vise stetne nego korisne za ljude.

Sada sam vjernik, a religiju nemam i ne trazim, a najljepsa i najvrijednija Bozija objava za mene je sve sto postoji i sto smo u stanju znati.

Uglavnom, svaka cast na temi i daljnoj argumentaciji... zaista je impresivan trud i volja da objasnis ono o cemu razmisljas i dokazes to sto zakljucis.

Sretno...

P.S. Molim vas da ne odgovarate na ovaj post, jer ne zelim komentare, savjete, predavanja i sl. (dovoljno sam ih se naslusao od raznih domacih "ucenjaka").
Last edited by giga on 13/12/2006 01:19, edited 1 time in total.

KOGOD KADGOD
Posts: 789
Joined: 17/11/2006 02:53

#69

Post by KOGOD KADGOD » 13/12/2006 01:17

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THE IMPORTANCE OF "HADITH & SUNNA"


Quran teaches that "Hadith & Sunna" constitute the necessary test to distinguish the true Muslim from the false Muslim.

The true Muslim believes God in His statements that Quran is complete, perfect, and fully detailed (6:19, 38, & 114). Consequently, the true Muslim does not accept any other source for religious guidance.

As for the false Muslim, he or she will become attracted to "Hadith & Sunna", and thus [be] exposed as a hypocrite who utters belief, while the heart inside is denying (see 16:22).

"We set up against every prophet enemies, human and jinn devils, who exhort each other to invent fancy statements in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. (But it is God's will) in order that the minds of those who do not believe in the hereafter may listen thereto, and to let them accept it, and to expose their true identity." (6:112113)

Are you satisfied with the Quran? Do you believe God? Or, do you feel that Quran is not complete; that you need additional sources of religious guidance?

ONE AUTHENTIC "HADITH"

On the day of judgment, Muhammad will be the first to complain that his followers had abandoned Quran, in favor of the fabrications by his enemies (Hadith & Sunna):

"And the messenger will say, 'My Lord, my people have deserted THIS QURAN.' We thus set up against every prophet enemies who are wicked. YOUR LORD SUFFICES AS A GUIDE AND SUPPORTER (i.e., Quran is enough)." (25:3031)

Note the word for word similarity between 25:31 shown above, and 6:112 shown on the previous page. Could this be coincidental?

Thus, the prophet Muhammad will be disappointed with those who love him excessively, just as Jesus will be disappointed with those Christians who considered him to be a god or son of God.

QURAN: THE ONLY LEGITIMATE "HADITH"


"These are God's verses; we recite them for you truthfully. In which "Hadith", beside God and His verses, do they believe in? WOE TO EVERY SINFUL FABRICATOR. He hears God's verses, then insists arrogantly on his way, as if he never heard them; promise him painful retribution. When he learns anything from our verses, he takes it in vain; these have deserved humiliating retribution. Awaiting them is hell; neither their earnings, nor the idols they had set up beside God can help them; they have deserved terrible retribution. THIS IS THE GUIDANCE, and those who do not believe the verses of their Lord will suffer debasement, and painful retribution." (45:611)

Do you believe God's verses? Do you believe that Quran is complete, perfect, and fully detailed (6:19, 38, & 114)? Or, do you have to have other sources beside Quran?

Quran is the only "Hadith" to be followed; all other Hadiths are blasphemous and misleading fabrications:


"God has revealed the best 'Hadith'; a book that is consistent, and describes both ways (to heaven and Hell). The skins of those who reverence their Lord shudder therefrom, then their skins and hearts soften up and receive God's message. Such is God's guidance; He guides whomever He wills. As for those sent astray by Him, no one can guide them." (39:23)

"There are those who advocate vain 'Hadith' causing diversion from the path of God, without knowledge, and fail to take such actions seriously; these have deserved humiliating retribution. And when our verses are recited to him, he turns away arrogantly, as if he never heard them; as if his ears are deaf; promise him painful retribution." (31:67)



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KOGOD KADGOD
Posts: 789
Joined: 17/11/2006 02:53

#70

Post by KOGOD KADGOD » 13/12/2006 01:22

SECTS IN ISLAM
SUNNIS, SHIIAS, AHMADIYYA, ISMAILI, NOI...., ETC.


SUBMISSION (In Arabic= Islam)


The Quran condemns all sects. All sects in Islam, whether Sunni, Shias, Ahmaddis,
Ismailli......etc have disagreements about hadith and sunnah attributed to the prophet. However, these same sects have no disagreements about the Quran.

It is sources of religious law, stories, conjecture, etc. outside the Quran which have created these sects. At the end of this article three "authentic" hadith have been produced bout the last sermon of the prophet. The different versions/conjecture gave rise to sects.


Nation of Islam, a large political group for African American, although have achieved a great political gain for the African Americans in the USA, they produced their own sources other than the Quran and follow other sources besides the Quran for religious laws. This is completely codemned in the TRUE Islam. Many of the followers of the Nation of Islam however are more acceptable to the TRUE Islam (Submission) when they get exposed to it as most of them are well educated and intelligent. Like all the other sects as soon as the followers of the Nation of Islam decide to follow ONLY the word of God in the Quran for religious law and leave the words of man for political moves ,they will find the truth and be guided. .See our section about Hadith and Quran .


These sects of Islam ( Sunni, Shias, Ahmaddis, NOI....etc.) do exactly the same thing - they follow sources and religious scholars, instead of the Quran.


[6:159] Those who divide themselves into sects do not belong with
you. Their judgment rests with GOD, then He will inform
them of everything they had done.


[30:32] (Do not fall in idol worship,) like those who divide
their religion into sects; each party rejoicing with what
they have.


[42:14] Ironically, they broke up into sects only after the
knowledge had come to them, due to jealousy and
resentment among themselves. If it were not for a
predetermined decision from your Lord to respite them for
a definite interim, they would have been judged
immediately. Indeed, the later generations who inherited
the scripture are full of doubts.


The last sermon of the prophet witnessed by the thousands has
three versions. The versions the references are listed below.


1) I leave with you Quran and Sunnah
Muwatta, 46/3


2) I leave with you Quran and Ahl al-bayt
Muslim 44/4, Nu2408; ibn hanbal 4/366; darimi 23/1, nu 3319.


3) I leave you for the Quran alone you shall uphold it.
Muslim 15/19, nu 1218; ibn Majah 25/84, Abu dawud 11/56.


Because the majority of the Muslims follow conjecture (hadith and
sunnah) instead of Quran alone (17:46) as our Creator has
commanded the "Muslims" are divided into sects. These sects are
there because of differences and disagreements on Hadith rather
than disagreements over the Quran.

Sarafcina
Posts: 2260
Joined: 19/09/2005 00:59

#71

Post by Sarafcina » 13/12/2006 10:44

KOGOD KADGOD wrote:
Sarafcina wrote:@KGKG
053:003. On ne govori po hiru svome

imas li sta o ovome? ;)

ne znam ima li svrhe komentarisati tekst, ako mi nema niko odgovarati na komentare,
ali u svakom slucaju.... istoricari su isto tako ljudi koji biljeze ;)
ne kontam zasto njima vjerujes, a ne vjerujes Buhariji, odnosno nekome ko klasificira hadis. u principu, klasificiranje hadisa je mnogo strozije (time i preciznije ispitivanje validnosti informacije) nego sto je to slucaj sa istorijom.
Ako se neko poziva na hadis ("zabranjeno zapisivati...") i smatra ga tacnim, onda je lud ako pravi takvu selekciju pa priznaje sto mu odgovara, a ostalo odbacuje.
Ako je to pitanje za one koji priznaju hadise, onda nadji bilo koju knjigu i dobices tumacenje tog hadisa koje ce....... pobiti tvoj supljak. recimo da se zabrana odnosila striktno na to vrijeme. i sta sad? vec si izgubila jedino uporiste.... ili ako je hadis klasificiran kao slab, to je isti slucaj.

jednostavno, ako hadise posmatramo striktno kao informaciju, onda ti Kur'anom mozes opravdati njihovo koristenje, a to je i radjeno cijelo vrijeme na taj nacin. Koristeni su. To sto se nakon 1400 godina "mraka", pojavljuje "neko pametan" da nam svima objasni sta je to pravi islam..... to je onako... bas malo vehabijski ;) zar ne :). taman, samo nam jos vi falite...

Tvoje optuzbe (odnosno ovoga ko je pisao engleski tekst) na racun ashaba koliko ja znam kontradiktiraju samom Kur'anu, pa da ne idemo dalje sa vasim kontradikcijama ;).

fakat mislim da je vakat da odustanes ;)
"053:003. On ne govori po hiru svome"

pa ne govori Qur'an po hiru svome nego kako mu je naredjeno i objavljeno... zar je to tesko shvatiti? :?

po tvom se odnosi na njegov svakodnevni zivot i govor...

sta je govorio ljudima javno O VJERI je uvijek u skladu sa Qur'anom,

Kada su pricali o svakodnevnim stvarima, ko je gdje bio, kako su hurme rodile, sta je ko vidio, pa zar ti stvarno ne mozes da okom svoga uma vidis kako su ljudi zivjeli, radili, u tom dobu?... Zar stvarno mislis da se on nije ponasao kao normalan covjek? Zar stvarno mislis da je samo o vjeri pricao 24/7?... Tako biva kada ljudi idoliziraju insana...

P Muhammed a.s. je jeo i spavao i sa znenama svojim opcio, i sa jaranima se salio, i odmarao u sred dana (kao sto je adet bio) radi najvece vrucine, i davao savjete trgovcima iz svog dugogodisnjeg iskustva, i ucestvovao u trkama kamila, i ... i...

(Boze oprosti im... a pejgamber ce takvima odgovoriti na Sudnjem danu...)

Vidi, ja se ne RASPRAVLJAM S TOBOM licno ni o cemu, iznijela sam svoje misljenje, iznio si ti svoje, drugi svoje (osim ako ne koristis vise nck-ova sto je izgleda moda ovdje) i to je sve :-) .

Ponovila sam toliko puta, NEMOJ se sloziti sa mnom, ja s tobom ne mogu, i svako sebi. :roll: Zelim ti svako dobro, dovoljno je receno da se oni koji prate mogu zamisliti nad tvojim stavom, nad mojim, nad svakim i dalje sami potraziti informacije o tome.

Diskusija se ne mora neophodno zavrsiti sa nekim "pobjednikom" nije to SVRHA diskusije, svrha je da se pomenu teme i misljenja koja do sad nisu mozda pomenuta da bi ljudi imali priliku da znaju da ima i drugih misljenja osim onih "tradicionalno" prihvacenih.

Ne ubjedjujem ja tebe ni u sta, vjeruj sta hoces, ba, sta je s tobom? :?

Moj cilj nije da izazivam konflikt kao tvoj, nego da se iznesu razlicita misljenja i to i jeste FORUM. Meni je ZAO sto su vecina takvi, posvadjali bi se oko bilo cega a to samo Sejtanu prokletom pase, sve ti apludira usput. :(

Ostani pri svome, ali sta si zapeo da mene ubjedjujes? :? :shock:
Meni to ne treba, to sto ti sada tvrdis i sama sam nekad tvrdila i iste argumente iznosila (vise da bih, kao i ti, sebe ubjedila da sam u pravu).

Ja znam sto ja znam, (sto vise Qur'an proucavam sve sam sigurnija, i sve se vise divim Njemu) i ti mozes ovdje da se crvenis :x koliko hoces, zaista u meni nisi ni zerru ljutnje proizveo.

Hvala ti na ucestvovanju u temi koju sam otvorila, mir s tobom i Bozija Uputa. :-D

P.S.

Ako imas argumenata koje bi dodao kao potporu za svoj stav - nastavi. Po mogucnosti sa vise ajeta.

Ja tek pocinjem iznositi izvore svojig argumenata, do sada sam samo svojim rijecima i jednostavno isznosila svoj stav - argumenti tek dolaze :)
inshallah.

pa ja se nemam sta ubjedjivati :D, jer da bi to poceli ti prvo moras izbaciti sve logicke kontradikcije iz onoga sto pricas i pises. Tek tada bi se moglo pricati o donosenju argumenata (dokaza), koje ti nisi do sada ponudila za svoje tvrdnje (bez obzira sto su ti jasno trazeni).

Ti nisi nikada ni mogla iznositi argumente koje ja iznosim ;), jer je ocito da to nisi nikada ni shvatala ;).

Meni je OK da se iznesu i druga misljenja, da se vidi kolike se tu gluposti provlace. Ali je OK i da se na te podvale i odgovori ;).
Eto ispade po tebi da do 30ak godina niko nije znao sta je to islam. ma daaaaj ... :)

Eto odgovori mi samo sta je to Medinska drzava? Da li je to sto se tada radilo u skladu sa Kur'anom? Ili je tebi i to kao trka kamila?

A glede nase "rasprave"... da se ne lazemo :) ... ja tebe ne ubjedjujem :), samo se trudim da prikazem kolike su nebuloze to sto ti pises. I to ne radim kao teolog (jer to nisam), nego cisto kao neko ko je malo citao par knjiga i kao neko za koga raja prica da zna misliti svojom glavom.


A to sto ti nisi u stanju ponuditi odgovore :) i vadis se kopiranjem kilometarskih tekstova (koji samo iznose vec vidjene gluposti).... meni jasno govori dokle smo dosli u ovoj diskusiji :).

recimo npr. ovaj fol s lijepljenjem etikete .... svi osim nas su sekte (a dokaz kolegice ;)), pa onda ide palamudjenje o svemu i svacemu i onda ko fol zakljucak u stilu ... "eto jesam vam reko, vidite kako su oni blablabla"


kao prvo...navoditi hadise (a pri tome pricati da ih ne priznajes...je malo glupo). OK ako ih vec hoces koristiti kao dokaz protiv (ili raditi neku vrstu svodjenja na protivrjecnost), onda ne mozes odstupati od metodologije .. pa bi recimo morala navesti kako je klasificiran dati hadis i ko ga je tako klasificirao (ako je taj neko nepoznat, moras navesti koji su kriteriji za klasifikaciju...ili jednostavno razraditi detalje i lanca i leksike). bez toga, to sto ti pricas/kopiras je obican pamflet. Jehovini svjedoci nam svaki dan nude gomilu takvih piskaranja.

KOGOD KADGOD
Posts: 789
Joined: 17/11/2006 02:53

#72

Post by KOGOD KADGOD » 13/12/2006 14:25

Sarafcina wrote:
KOGOD KADGOD wrote:
Sarafcina wrote:@KGKG
053:003. On ne govori po hiru svome

imas li sta o ovome? ;)

ne znam ima li svrhe komentarisati tekst, ako mi nema niko odgovarati na komentare,
ali u svakom slucaju.... istoricari su isto tako ljudi koji biljeze ;)
ne kontam zasto njima vjerujes, a ne vjerujes Buhariji, odnosno nekome ko klasificira hadis. u principu, klasificiranje hadisa je mnogo strozije (time i preciznije ispitivanje validnosti informacije) nego sto je to slucaj sa istorijom.
Ako se neko poziva na hadis ("zabranjeno zapisivati...") i smatra ga tacnim, onda je lud ako pravi takvu selekciju pa priznaje sto mu odgovara, a ostalo odbacuje.
Ako je to pitanje za one koji priznaju hadise, onda nadji bilo koju knjigu i dobices tumacenje tog hadisa koje ce....... pobiti tvoj supljak. recimo da se zabrana odnosila striktno na to vrijeme. i sta sad? vec si izgubila jedino uporiste.... ili ako je hadis klasificiran kao slab, to je isti slucaj.

jednostavno, ako hadise posmatramo striktno kao informaciju, onda ti Kur'anom mozes opravdati njihovo koristenje, a to je i radjeno cijelo vrijeme na taj nacin. Koristeni su. To sto se nakon 1400 godina "mraka", pojavljuje "neko pametan" da nam svima objasni sta je to pravi islam..... to je onako... bas malo vehabijski ;) zar ne :). taman, samo nam jos vi falite...

Tvoje optuzbe (odnosno ovoga ko je pisao engleski tekst) na racun ashaba koliko ja znam kontradiktiraju samom Kur'anu, pa da ne idemo dalje sa vasim kontradikcijama ;).

fakat mislim da je vakat da odustanes ;)
"053:003. On ne govori po hiru svome"

pa ne govori Qur'an po hiru svome nego kako mu je naredjeno i objavljeno... zar je to tesko shvatiti? :?

po tvom se odnosi na njegov svakodnevni zivot i govor...

sta je govorio ljudima javno O VJERI je uvijek u skladu sa Qur'anom,

Kada su pricali o svakodnevnim stvarima, ko je gdje bio, kako su hurme rodile, sta je ko vidio, pa zar ti stvarno ne mozes da okom svoga uma vidis kako su ljudi zivjeli, radili, u tom dobu?... Zar stvarno mislis da se on nije ponasao kao normalan covjek? Zar stvarno mislis da je samo o vjeri pricao 24/7?... Tako biva kada ljudi idoliziraju insana...

P Muhammed a.s. je jeo i spavao i sa znenama svojim opcio, i sa jaranima se salio, i odmarao u sred dana (kao sto je adet bio) radi najvece vrucine, i davao savjete trgovcima iz svog dugogodisnjeg iskustva, i ucestvovao u trkama kamila, i ... i...

(Boze oprosti im... a pejgamber ce takvima odgovoriti na Sudnjem danu...)

Vidi, ja se ne RASPRAVLJAM S TOBOM licno ni o cemu, iznijela sam svoje misljenje, iznio si ti svoje, drugi svoje (osim ako ne koristis vise nck-ova sto je izgleda moda ovdje) i to je sve :-) .

Ponovila sam toliko puta, NEMOJ se sloziti sa mnom, ja s tobom ne mogu, i svako sebi. :roll: Zelim ti svako dobro, dovoljno je receno da se oni koji prate mogu zamisliti nad tvojim stavom, nad mojim, nad svakim i dalje sami potraziti informacije o tome.

Diskusija se ne mora neophodno zavrsiti sa nekim "pobjednikom" nije to SVRHA diskusije, svrha je da se pomenu teme i misljenja koja do sad nisu mozda pomenuta da bi ljudi imali priliku da znaju da ima i drugih misljenja osim onih "tradicionalno" prihvacenih.

Ne ubjedjujem ja tebe ni u sta, vjeruj sta hoces, ba, sta je s tobom? :?

Moj cilj nije da izazivam konflikt kao tvoj, nego da se iznesu razlicita misljenja i to i jeste FORUM. Meni je ZAO sto su vecina takvi, posvadjali bi se oko bilo cega a to samo Sejtanu prokletom pase, sve ti apludira usput. :(

Ostani pri svome, ali sta si zapeo da mene ubjedjujes? :? :shock:
Meni to ne treba, to sto ti sada tvrdis i sama sam nekad tvrdila i iste argumente iznosila (vise da bih, kao i ti, sebe ubjedila da sam u pravu).

Ja znam sto ja znam, (sto vise Qur'an proucavam sve sam sigurnija, i sve se vise divim Njemu) i ti mozes ovdje da se crvenis :x koliko hoces, zaista u meni nisi ni zerru ljutnje proizveo.

Hvala ti na ucestvovanju u temi koju sam otvorila, mir s tobom i Bozija Uputa. :-D

P.S.

Ako imas argumenata koje bi dodao kao potporu za svoj stav - nastavi. Po mogucnosti sa vise ajeta.

Ja tek pocinjem iznositi izvore svojig argumenata, do sada sam samo svojim rijecima i jednostavno isznosila svoj stav - argumenti tek dolaze :)
inshallah.

pa ja se nemam sta ubjedjivati :D, jer da bi to poceli ti prvo moras izbaciti sve logicke kontradikcije iz onoga sto pricas i pises. Tek tada bi se moglo pricati o donosenju argumenata (dokaza), koje ti nisi do sada ponudila za svoje tvrdnje (bez obzira sto su ti jasno trazeni).

Ti nisi nikada ni mogla iznositi argumente koje ja iznosim ;), jer je ocito da to nisi nikada ni shvatala ;).

Meni je OK da se iznesu i druga misljenja, da se vidi kolike se tu gluposti provlace. Ali je OK i da se na te podvale i odgovori ;).
Eto ispade po tebi da do 30ak godina niko nije znao sta je to islam. ma daaaaj ... :)

Eto odgovori mi samo sta je to Medinska drzava? Da li je to sto se tada radilo u skladu sa Kur'anom? Ili je tebi i to kao trka kamila?

A glede nase "rasprave"... da se ne lazemo :) ... ja tebe ne ubjedjujem :), samo se trudim da prikazem kolike su nebuloze to sto ti pises. I to ne radim kao teolog (jer to nisam), nego cisto kao neko ko je malo citao par knjiga i kao neko za koga raja prica da zna misliti svojom glavom.


A to sto ti nisi u stanju ponuditi odgovore :) i vadis se kopiranjem kilometarskih tekstova (koji samo iznose vec vidjene gluposti).... meni jasno govori dokle smo dosli u ovoj diskusiji :).

recimo npr. ovaj fol s lijepljenjem etikete .... svi osim nas su sekte (a dokaz kolegice ;)), pa onda ide palamudjenje o svemu i svacemu i onda ko fol zakljucak u stilu ... "eto jesam vam reko, vidite kako su oni blablabla"


kao prvo...navoditi hadise (a pri tome pricati da ih ne priznajes...je malo glupo). OK ako ih vec hoces koristiti kao dokaz protiv (ili raditi neku vrstu svodjenja na protivrjecnost), onda ne mozes odstupati od metodologije .. pa bi recimo morala navesti kako je klasificiran dati hadis i ko ga je tako klasificirao (ako je taj neko nepoznat, moras navesti koji su kriteriji za klasifikaciju...ili jednostavno razraditi detalje i lanca i leksike). bez toga, to sto ti pricas/kopiras je obican pamflet. Jehovini svjedoci nam svaki dan nude gomilu takvih piskaranja.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

izvini, ali stvarno je smijesno citati ovo "hvatanje za slamku" :lol:

Sve do sad sam iznosila argumente i misljenja svojim rijecima i kako ja mislim i znam.
-onda si rekao da nemam "dokaze" da ovo nije samo moje misljenje.
- pa sam probala objasniti, zasto ovo nije samo moje mosljenje, i da razumijem tvoj stav jer sam ga i sama zastupala dok nisam uvidjela nelogicnost istog
-zahtijevao si da ti pokazem gdje su te knjige i ti tekstovi jer smatras da govorim samo iz svog nekog "lijevog" "novog" zakljucivanja
- onda pokazem par tekstova onih koji imaju isti stav (koje sumnjam da si razumio ali recimo da jesi) i ti mi onda kazes da "kopiram"! :? :lol: i da nemam svoje argumente :?

a sve do sad nisi ni ti, ni oni koje zoves u pomoc, iznijeli SVOJIM RIJECIMA JASNE, rezonovanjem zakljucene argumente nego samo neke citate KAO "SVOJE" ARGUMENTE (a koji u biti podrzavaju moj stav, ali ih ocito nisi ni procitao)... :shock:

Da ne idem unazad i navodim prijasnje CITATE koji su iznoseni kao "argumenti" navescu zadnja dva - i sta je ovo ispod ako nije "kopiranje"? (a posto ih ni sam nisi procitao, zato i ne vidis odakle dolaze navedeni stavovi u zakljucku)

PRIMJER:
Autor: zena Poslano: 10/12/2006 19:55
Mahmut Karalić

PODJELA HADISA S OBZIROM NA NJIHOV STEPEN VJERODOSTOJNOSTI

Hadiski učenjaci, u osnovi, sve hadise dijele na dvije kategorije: na one koji se prihvataju i na one koji se odbacuju. Kasnije su hadiski učenjaci sve hadise koji se prihvataju podveli pod dvije vrste: sahih hadise i hasen hadise, dok su sve hadise koji se odbacuju podveli pod kategoriju daif hadisa. Mi ćemo se ovdje ukratko osvrnuti na svaku od tih vrsta, sa posebnim osvrtom na hadise koje svaka od njih obuhvata.

SAHIH HADISI

Sahih je onaj hadis koji kontinuirano prenosi pošten i precizan ravija od istoga takvog ravije sve do kraja seneda, te koji ne protivrječi drugim pouzdanijim predajama i nema u sebi skrivenih mahana i nedostataka. Da bi se jedan hadis mogao smatrati sahihom, mora ispuniti pet slijedećih uvjeta:
1. Sened mu mora biti spojen od početka do kraja. To znači da je svaki ravija živio u isto vrijeme sa onim od kojega hadis prenosi, po Buhariji, da se sa njim susreo i od njega hadis izravno čuo.
2. Svi prenosioci u senedu hadisa mora da budu iskreni i pošteni. Pod iskrenošću i poštenjem se podrazumijeva slijedeće: da su svi oni muslimani, punoljetni i pametni da nisu skloni laži i griješenju (činjenju harama i propuštanju farza), da su čestiti i da ne krše pravila islamskog ponašanja. Hadiski učenjaci nisu prihvatali hadis niti od jednog prenosioca za kojeg su utvrdili da je makar jednom u životu slagao, ili je svjesno učinio neki haram, ili propustio farz, ukoliko se, pak, zato nije iskreno pokajao.
3. Svi prenosioci treba da budu precizni do te mjere da su u stanju sve što jedanput čuju doslovno upamtiti, ukoliko usmeno prenose, odnosno tačno i bez grješaka zapisati ukoliko to čine pismenim putem. (koliko ljudi procentualno, ima fotografsku memoriju? otprilike 1:100 000)
4. Nijedan ravija u svome protivriječiti drugim pouzdanim ili ravijama. Ukoliko bi se desilo da jedan pouzdani ravija o jednoj te istoj stvari ili događaju priča drukčije od ravije koji je pouzdaniji od njega, hadis koji on propovijeda automatski bi postao slab ukoliko se ne bi moglo naći neko kompromisno objašnjenje.
5. Preneseni hadis ne smije u sebi imati nikakvih skrivenih mahana i nedostataka. Jer, dogodi se, naime, da jedan hadis ispuni sve spomenute uvjete, a onda neki od eksperata otkrije u njemu nekakav skriveni nedostatak, uslijed kojega hadis postane slab.
Na primjer, svi su hadisi koje prenosi Hasan el-Basri od Omera b. Hattaba na ovaj način postali slabi i ako su na prvi pogled izgledali pouzdani. Učenjaci su otkrili, iako je Hasan vremenski dočekao Omera, da je on imao svega dvije godine kad je Omer umro, a dijete sa dvije godine nije u stanju upamtiti hadis.
Vrste sahih hadisa
Sahih hadis učenjaci dijele na dvije vrste:
1. sahih li zatihi hadis, a to je onaj hadis koji je sam po sebi sahih, jer ispunjava spomenute uslove;
2. sahih li gajrihi hadis, koji je uslijed drugih hadisa postao sahih hadisom. Naime, ova vrsta sahih hadisa u osnovi pripada hasen hadisima, ali je došao u mnogo predaja koje ga uzdižu na rang sahih hadisa.

***

DAIF HADISI

Daif (slab) jest onaj hadis kojemu ne dostaje jedan ili više uvjeta sahih hadisa ili hasen hadisa. Hadis može biti slab uslijed prekida u senedu, ili uslijed nekog drugog uzroka. Sve daif hadise (slabe hadise) možemo podijeliti na dvije kategorije:
1. Hadisi koji su slabi uslijed prekida u senedu i
2. Hadisi koji su slabi uslijed nekog drugog uzroka.

DAIF HADISI KOJI SU SLABI USLIJED PREKIDA U SENEDU

Ima više vrsta hadisa koji su postali slabi iz razloga što im je prekinut sened. Ovisno o tome o kakvom je prekidu riječ - da li u senedu nedostaje jedan prenosilac ili, pak, nedostaje više prenosilaca, da li prenosioci nedostaju uzastopno u jednom dijelu ili na više mjesta u senedu, te da li je sened prekinut na početku, u sredini ili na kraju svoga niza, daif hadise možemo podijeliti na slijedeće vrste: muallek hadisi, mursel hadisi, mu'dal hadisi, munkati' hadisi, mu'an'an, mu'ennen i mudelles hadisi.


Mursel hadisi
Mursel je onaj hadis u čijem je senedu na kraju ispušten jedan ravija. Postoje tri vrste mursel hadisa: Opći mursel, mursel ashaba i skriveni mursel. Općim murselom se naziva onaj hadis koji jedan od tabi' ina izravno prenosi od Allahova Poslanika, Allah ga blagoslovio i spasio, i ne spomene ime ashaba od kojega ga je čuo hadis.
Šafija veli: "Obavijestio me je Seid, on je prenio od Džurejdža(pogledaj komentar), koji je kazao: mene je obavijestio Humejd el-A'redž, on je prenio od Mudžahida, da je kazao: Vjerovjesnik, Allah ga blagoslovio i spasio, izgovarao je naglas telbiju Lebbejkel1ahumme lebbejk..." Ovdje Mudžahid kazuje izravno od Vjerovjesnika, Allah ga blagoslovio i spasio, da je učio telbiju naglas, a on je tabi'in i nije vidio Allahova Poslanika, Allah ga blagoslovio i spasio, a ne spominje ime ashaba koji mu je to prenio.
Murselom ashaba se naziva onaj hadis koji od Allahova Poslanika, Allah ga blagoslovio i spasio, priča onaj ashab koji ga od njeg nije izravno mogao čuti uslijed toga što je tada bio mali, ili je kasno primio islam, ili je negdje bio odsutan, a ne spominje ime ashaba koji mu ga je ispričao.
Takav slučaj je sa predajom u kojoj se kaže:
Aiša, majka pravovjernih, je rekla: “Prvo čime je počela Objava Božijem Poslaniku (alejhi's-selam) bili su istiniti snovi…” (Ovaj primjer mursela ashaba dodao je priređivač hrestomatije – A.S.)
Skrivenim murselom se naziva onaj hadis koji prenosi tabi'in od ashaba sa kojim je živio u istom vremenu, ali ga od njega nije čuo, i to riječima koje ukazuju na mogućnost i da ga je čuo i da nije. Na primjer: Omer b. Abdul-Aziz prenosi od Ukbea b. Amira da je Allahov Poslanik, Allah ga blagoslovio i spasio rekao: "Smilovao se Allah opreznim čuvarima." Mizzi tvrdi da Omer b. Abdul-Aziz nije imao susreta sa Ukbeom b. Amirom.
Kod ovakvih vrsta hadisa moguće je otkriti da se radi o murselu na jedan od slijedećih načina:
- ukoliko učenjaci ustanove da dotični prenosilac nije opće slušao hadise od spomenutog ashaba;
- ukoliko on sam prizna da hadise nije slušao od njega;
- ukoliko je dotični hadis došao i drugim predajama, a u njima je spomenut ravija između njega i spomenutog ashaba.
U pogledu sve tri vrste mursel hadisa islamski učenjaci imaju različite stavove. Većina hadiskih i mnogi fikhski i usulifikhski učenjaci smtraju da mursel hadis spada u kategoriju hadisa koji se odbacuju. Ebu Hanife, Malik i Ahmed smatraju da je mursel hadis pouzdan ukoliko ispunjava sve ostale uvjete sahiha i da spada u kategoriju hadisa koji se prihvataju. Prema njima, tabi'ini su uglavnom svi pouzdani i zasigurno ni jedan od njih ne bi Poslaniku pripisao ono u što nije siguran. Šafija smatra da se mursel hadis može smatrati pouzdanim i podvesti pod kategoriju hadisa koji se prihvaćaju ukoliko ispuni određene uvjete, a to su:
- da je ravija koji ga vezuje za Poslanika, Allah ga blagoslovio i spasio, stariji tabi'in;
- da je ravija koji prenosi od tabi'ina taj hadis pouzdan;
- da se sa njim slažu hafizi hadisa i da mu u tome ne protivrječe;
- da je taj isti hadis drugim putem prenesen do Poslanika, Allah ga blagoslovio i spasio.
Većina učenjaka mursel ashaba smatraju pouzdanim ukoliko ispunjava ostale uvjete.

Munkati' hadisi
Ibn Abdul-Berr munkati' hadisom smatra općenito svaki hadis koji ima prekinut sened, bez ozira na kojemu se mjestu u senedu taj prekid nalazi i na koji je način taj prekid uslijedio. Primjereno ovoj definiciji, pod pojam munkati' hadisa mogu se podvesti i mursel, mu'dal i muallak.
Poslije su hadiski učenjaci ovaj hadis izdvojili kao zasebnu vrstu. Oni munkati' hadisom smatraju svaki hadis u čijemu je senedu prije ashaba na jednom ili na više mjesta izostavljen neki ravija, pod uvjetom da nije izostavljen na samom početku seneda. Prema ovoj definiciji, mursel, mu' dal i muallak se ne mogu podvesti pod pojam munkati' hadisa.
Primjer munkati' hadisa: Abdur-Rezzak prenosi od Sevrija, on od Ebu Ishaka, on od Zejda b. Jusej'a, a on Huzejfe - da je Vjerovjesnik, Allah ga blagoslovio i spasio, rekao: "Ako poslije mene hilafet povjerite Ebu Bekru pa znajte da je on jak i povjerljiv."(u mom pocetnom tekstu navedena grupa politickog izmiljanja hadisa) Ovaj hadis je munkati' jer u njegovu senedu između Sevrija i Ebu Ishaka nedostaje jedan ravija; to je, kako se iz drugih predaja saznaje, šerik. Dakle, Sevrija ovaj hadis nije direktno čuo od Ebu Ishaka, nego mu ga je od njega prenio šerik.
Hadiski učenjaci su jednoglasni u stavu da je munkati' hadis slab hadis i da spada u kategoriju onih hadisa koji se odbacuju, iz razloga što se pored toga što mu je sened prekinut obično kod ovakvih hadisa ne zna ni pravo stanje izostavljenog ravije.

Mu'dal hadisi
Mu' dal je onaj hadis u čijem senedu uzatopno nedostaju dvojica i više prenosilaca. Na primjer:
Malik je u Muvett'au zabilježio izravno od Ebu Hurejre da je on rekao: Allahov poslanik, Allah ga blagoslovio i spasio, kazao je:"Robu sljeduje hrana i odjeća (kao i ostaloj čeljadi) i ne smije se opterećivati poslovima koje ne moče izdržati." Iz predaje ovog hadisa, koja je zabilježena i u drugim izvorima, saznajemo da su u senedu između Malika i Ebu Hurejre izostavljena, uzastopno, dvojica prenosi1aca: Muhammed b. Adžlan i njegov otac.
Mu' dal spada u kategoriju hadisa koji se odbacuju, jer je ova vrsta hadisa daleko lošija od muallaka, mursela ili munkati' a uslijed nedostatka dvojice prenosi1aca uzastopno. Inače, Sunen Seida b. Mensura i općenito sva djela Ibn Ebu Dun'ja'a puna su ove vrste hadisa.

Muallak hadisi
Riječ muallek u arapskom jeziku ima više značenja; može značiti obješen, viseći, ovisan, uvjetovan i sl. U hadiskoj se nauci muallekom naziva svaki hadis u čijemu je senedu na početku ispušten jedan ili više prenosilaca uzastopno. Dobio je ovakav naziv uslijed toga gornju stranu, a prekinut izgleda kao da "visi".
Muallek hadisima se nazivaju i oni hadisi čiji je sened upotpunosti izostavljen kao, na primjer, kada kažemo: "Rekao je Allahov poslanik, Allah ga blagoslovio i spasio, to ito", kao i hadisi čiji je sened izostavljen do ashaba ili tabi'ina, kao, na primjer, kada Buharija kaže: "Ebu Musa je rekao: Allahov poslanik, Allah ga blagoslovio i spasio, pokrio je svoja koljena kada je došao Osman", Buharija je izostavio cijeli sened ovoga hadisa do ashaba Ebu Musa'a el-Eša'rije. وَقَالَ أَبُو مُوسَى غَطَّى النَّبِيُّ صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ رُكْبَتَيْهِ حِينَ دَخَلَ عُثْمَانُ… (البخارى)
Muallek hadis spada u kategorije slabih hadisa koji se odbacuju iz razloga što mu nedostaje jedan od uvjeta koji se traže kod sahih hadisa i hasen hadisa, a to je spojenost seneda. Izuzetak su muallek hadisi u Buharijevu i Muslimovu Sahihu, koji se prihvataju, jer im je svima naknadno pronađen njihov originalni sened.

Mudelles hadisi

Riječ mudelles je particip pasivni arapskog glagola dellese, što znači: prijevara, obmana, falsifikat. U hadiskoj nauci je mudelles je usvojen kao stručni naziv za vrstu hadisa čijem senedu postoji vid kakve obmane ili falsifikata. Hadiski učenjaci tedlis dijele na dvije osnovne vrste: a) tedlisul-isnad i b) tedlisuš-šujuh.

a) Tedlisul-isnad
Ova se vrsta tedlisa ostvaruje na jedan od četiri načina:
1. Kad jedan ravija od nekoga kojeg je vremenski dočekao i sa njim imao susret prenese nešto što od njega nije čuo. Primjer: Ebu Avane je prenio od A'meša, on od Ibrahima et-Tejmija, on od svoga oca, a on od Ebu Zerra - da jeVjerovjesnik, Allah ga blagoslovio i spasio, rekao: "U džehennemu (sam čuo) nekoga kako doziva: o Milostivi o Premilostivi." Ebu Avane veli: "Upitao sam A'meša jesi li ti to čuo od Ibrahima? Ne, odgovorio je, nego mi je ispričao Hakim b. Džubejr, prenoseći to od njega. To znači da je A'meš pokušao falsificirati sened ovoga hadisa time što je iz njega izostavio Hakima b. Džubejra Ibrahima et- Tejmija. Ovakva se vrsta tedlisa zove i tedlis el-iskat.
2. Kad ravija koji je sklon obmani iz seneda svjesno izostavi slabog raviju od koga je dotični hadis čuo, kako bi izgledalo da su ga prenijeli samo pouzdani prenosioci. Primjer: Ibn Ebu Hatim u djelu "Ilel" bilježi hadis koji prenosi Ishak b. Rahivejh od Bekijjea b. Velida, koji je kazao: Ispričao mi je Ebu Vehb el-Esedi, on je prenio od Nafi' a, on od Ibn Omera, a on od Vjerovjesnika, Allah ga blagoslovio i spasio, da je kazao: "Ne hvali islamijet kod čovjeka sve dok ne upoznaš njegova razmišljanja." Ovdje je Bekijje b. Velid krivotvorio sened ovoga hadisa na taj način što je između Ebu Vehba el-¬Esedija i Nafi' a izbacio slabog raviju Ishaka b. Ebu Fevrea, kako bi izgledalo da ovaj hadis prenose samo pouzdane ravije. Da bi se to teže prepoznalo, on je raviju Abdullaha b. Amra el-Esedija spomenuo po njegovu nadimku Ebu Vehb, a ime mu je izostavio. Ova se vrsta tedlisa zove i tedlisut-tesvijeti.
3. Kada neki od ravija presiječe kontinuitet seneda na taj način što u lancu prenošenja upotrijebi dvosmislen izraz iz kojega se ne može zaključiti da li je on taj hadis čuo od osobe koju je spomenuo ili mu ga je neko drugi od nje prenio. Primjer: Hakem je sa senedom zabilježio od Alije b. Hašrema, koji veli: "Bili smo kod Ibn Ujejne, pa je počeo: Od Zuhrija... Neko od prisutnih ga upita: Jesi li to ti čuo od Zuhrija, a on reče: Ne, nisam to čuo od njega, niti od onoga ko je to čuo od Zuhrija, nego mi je ispričao Abdur-Rezzak, prenijevši od M'amera, a on od Zuhrija." Ovdje je Ibn Ujejne u senedu izostavio dvojicu prenosilaca između njega i Zuhrija. Ovakva vrsta tedlisa se zove i tedlisul-kat'i.
4. Kad neki od ravija, prenoseći od svoga učitelja, uz njega doda još nekoga od koga nije čuo dotični hadis. Primjer: "Priča Hakem da se jednog dana dogovorila grupa učenika Hušejma da od njega više ne uzimaju hadise u kojima ima obmane. Primijetivši to, Hušejm je kod svakog hadisa koji im je citirao naglasio: Ispričali su nam Husejn i Mugire, a oni su prenijeli od Ibrahima... . Pošto je završio, reče Hušejm: Šta mislite jesam li vas danas uspio prevariti? Ne, odgovoriše, a on reče: Ja od onog što sam vam danas citirao o Mugire nisam čuo ni jednog slova. Mugiru sam dodao uz Husejna." Ova se vrsta tedlisa zove i tedlisul-atfi.

b) Tedlisuš-šujuh
Ova se vrsta tedlisa ostvaruje tako što ravija prenoseći mudelles hadis, koji je čuo od svog učitelja, nekada svoga učitelja oslovi imenom, nekada nadimkom po djetetu, nekada opet njegovim nadimkom po mjestu rođenja ili plemenu, ili ga, pak, okarakterizira nečim po čemu je nepoznat kako ne bi bio prepoznatljiv. Tako, na primjer, Haris b. Ebu Usame, prenoseći hadise od hafiza Ebu Bekra Abdullaha b. Muhammeda b. Ubejda b. Suf jana, koji je više poznat po nadimku Ibn Ebu Dun'ja, nekada rekne: "Kazao je Abdullah b. Ubejd", nekada, "kazao je Abdullah b. Suf jan", a nekada, opet, "kazao je Ebu Bekr Suf jan" , kako bi izgledalo da je više prenosilaca prenijelo ovaj hadis.
Sve vrste mudelles hadisa spadaju u kategoriju slabih hadisa koji se odbacuju. Ipak je naj slabija među njima ona kategorija koja je poznata pod nazivom tedlisut-tesvijeti.
(S ciljem izdvajanja prenosioca koji su se koristili tedlisom i mudelles hadisa nastajala su posebna djela u kojima su pobrajani prenosioci koji su se koristili tedlisom i vrste tedlisa koje su upotrebljavali. Među najpopularnijim djelima iz ove oblasti su: Et-Tebjin li esma' el-mudellesin od Hatiba Bagdadija, et-Tebjin li esma' el-mudellesin od Halebija, Ta'rif ehl et-takdis od Ibn Hadžera.- op. priređ.)

Muan' an hadisi
Muan'nom se naziva svaki hadis u čijemu se senedu u toku prenošenja upotrijebljava prijedlog an (od). Primjer: Tirmizija veli: "Ispričao nam je Kutejbe, kaže, nas je obavijestio Mugire b. Abdurahman, on je prenio od Ebu Zinada, on od el-A'redža, on od Ebu Hurejre, a on od Vjerovjesnika, Allah ga blagoslovio i spasio, da je kazao: "Najbolji dan u kojemu se sunce rodi je petak. U njemu je stvoren Adem, u njemu je uveden u džennet i u njemu je izveden iz njega, a i Sudnji dan će se dogoditi u petak."
Da bi se sened jednog muan' an hadisa mogao smatrati spojenim, neophodno je da budu ispunjena dva uvjeta: a) da su sve ravije koji hadis prenose sa prijedlogom an (od) vremenski dočekale one od kojih su hadis preuzeli, b) te da ravije koji prenose hadis sa prijedlogom an nisu u svome karakteru mudellisi (oni koji su skloni obmanama).

Muennen hadisi
Munnen hadisom se naziva svaki hadis u čijemu se senedu tokom njegova prenošenja upotrebljava riječca enne (uistinu, zaista). Primjer: Prenosi Malik od Nafi'a, a on od Ibn Omera da je "Allahov poslanik, Allah ga blagoslovio i spasio, tokom jednog putovanja, čuo Omera b. Hattaba kako se zaklinje ocem, pa je rekao: "Uzvišeni Allah vam zabranjuje da se zaklinjete vašim roditeljima, ko se od vas bude htio zakleti, neka se kune samo Bogom ili neka šuti."
Da bi se sened jednog muennen hadisa mogao smatrati spojenim, prema mišljenju većine učenjaka, uvjet je da budu ispunjena ista ona dva uvjeta kao i kod muan' an hadisa.






Autor: zena Poslano: 10/12/2006 19:56
Omer Nakičević

APOKRIFNI HADISI

Apokrifni hadis je informacija, koju je sačinio lažac i pripisao Vjerovjesniku (s) da bi ga oklevetao. Najčešća pojava sačinjavanja apokrifnih hadisa u tekstu i senedu potiče od jednog te istog podmetača . Ponekad, kad nekom od podmetača apokrifnih hadisa ne bi pošlo za rukom da formira ubjedljiv i plodonosan tekst, on bi se potrudio da unese apokrifnost u lanac prenosilaca sve do Vjerovjesnika (s), stavljajući mu u usta kakvu veličanstvenu misao ili mudrost i tome sirčno.
Zahvaljujući naporima velikih stručnjaka u hadiskim naučnim disciplinama iznađen je i do u detalje razrađen naučni program pomoću koga se lako može uočiti razlika između autentičnog i apokrifnog predanja. Taj naučni program obuhvata nekoliko metoda od kojih je svaka posebno dovoljna da se utvrdi neautentičnost nekog hadisa, ukoliko se pretpostavi ili bude proglašen da je apokrifari. Za sada se najviše koristi slijedećih pet metoda:
1. Priznanje samog falsifikatora hadisa da je neke hadise falsifikovao kao što je bio slučaj sa Ebu 'Usme Nuh b. Ebi Merjem, zvanim Nuh Džami, koji je priznao da je u usta Ibni 'Abbasa stavio hadise o vrlinama KUR'ANA i to za svako sure pojedinačno. A koliko ih nije priznalo?
2. Da u tekstu (uslovno, hadisa) bude neka greška u izrazu ili značenju, što je nemoguće da se dogodi Vjerovjesniku (s). Uočavanje greške u izrazu ili značenju ne predstavlja nikakvu poteškoću onima koji se bave hadisom kao naukom, jer hadis kako kaže Rebi b. Husejm, "ima svjetlo kao svjetlo dana, pomoću kojeg ga raspoznaješ, a ima i svoju noć, pomoću koje ga odbacuješ, ne prihvaćaš."
Kritičari hadisa više pažnje poklanjaju značenjskoj manjkavosti hadisa i prije ga zbog toga provjeravaju, nego što to čine zbog slabosti nekog termina, jer kako oni kažu, slabost i prozirnost u značenju najbolji je dokaz da se radi o apokrifnosti, makar takav haber, uslovno hadis, i ne bio strukturiran slabim izrazom. Šta više, slabost u izrazu ne govori uvijek o apokrifnosti hadisa, jer postoji mogućnost da prenosilac prenosi hadis po smislu i prilikom prenošenja unese i nešto iz narodskog govornog idioma. Ako prenosilac insistira na tvrdnji,da je dotični termin Vjerovjesnikov (s)., onda se smatra da dotični prenosilac ne govori istinu.
3. Da prenešeni (uslovno hadis) odudara od zdravog razuma, osjećanja i viđenja i da je kao takav i neobjašnjiv. Kao primjer takve pojavve navodi se pitanje upućeno 'Abdurahmanu b. Zejdu: "Tvoj otac ti je prenio od tvog djeda da je Vjerovjesnik (s) rekao: Nuhova lađa obišla je oko Kabe i klanjala dva rekata iza Mekami Ibrahima? Da- odgovorio je."
Autor ove apokrifne vijesti je 'Abdurahman b. Zejd b. Eslem, dobro poznat po laži i klevetama.
4. Da predmet prenošenog (uslovno hadisa) govori o velikom obećanju za neznatno učinjenu stvar ili, obratno, strašnu kaznu za beznačajni propust, kao što je, npr. vječiti raj kroz koji teku rijeke i u čijoj će pratnji biti na hiljade ljepotica, za onoga ko bude radio preporučljivo djelo (mandub), ili vječiti pakao, uz punu Božiju mržnju i srdžbu za onoga ko bude propustio preporučljivo djelo ili uradio nešto što je nepohvalno (makruh). Pripovjedači su rado izmišljali ovakve "hadise" da bi privukli i pridobili srca širokih narodnih masa. (navedena grupa)
5. Da podmetač, falsifikatar hadisa bude poznat kao lažac, da je slab u vjeri, da je sklon krivotvorenju hadisa (teksta hadisa i lanca prenošenja), da bi udovoljio svojim ličnim sklonostima(navedeno u jednoj od grupa). Radi ilustracije ovakvih hadisa može nam poslužiti ličnost Me'muna Herevije kada je upitan "zašto ne vjeruje Šafiji i njegovim pristalicama u Horosanu?" Prenio nam je, objašnjava Herevi svoj stav, Ahmed b. 'Abdullah, prenio nam je 'Abdullah b. Mi'dan el-Ezdi od Enesa hadis merfu: "Među mojom ummom (sljedbenicima) biće jedan čovjek, po imenu Muhammad b. Idris štetniji od Iblisa za moju ummu, a biće jedan čovjek, po imenu Ebu Hanife, on će biti svjetiljka moje umme". Ili drugi primjer, još neobičniji od prethodnog, koji prenosi Hakim od Temimije, koji kaže: "Zadesio sam se kod Se'ada b. Tarifa kad mu dođe sin iz mekteba plačući. Otac ga upita: Šta ti je, što plačeš? Istukao me učitelj- odgovori dijete. Ja ću njih danas osramotiti- dodade roditelj i nastavi. Prenio mi je Ikrime od Ibni 'Abbasa, hadis merfu': "Učitelji vaše djece, najveće vaše zlo, najmanje su milostivi prema siročadima i najgrublji prema siromašnima."


Uzroci pojave apokrifnosti u hadisu .

Apokrifnsot u hadisu uglavnam se javlja iza 41. godine po hidžri, u vrijeme četvrtog halife, Alije b. Ebi Taliba. Svakako da se ona ne javlja sama pa sebi, nego kao posljedica uzroka, bilo da se radi u vrijeme ovog četvrtog halife, Alije b. Ebi Taliba, ili kasnije. Najznačajniji uzraci su:
1. Politički, kada dolazi do podjele među muslimanima na grupe i partije.
2. Prevlast neke pravne škole bila je veoma često uzrok za pojavu apokrifnih hadisa. Zbog toga Abdullah b. Jezid Muki'i, jedan od ranijih falsifikatora hadisa, u pokušaju da ispravi svoje ranije greške, upozorava: "Pazite od koga primate hadis, jer mi ranije kad god bismo primijtili neko mišljenje (koje se javlja u pravnim škalama), mi bismo mu sačinili i hadis." Imamo i drugih drastičnijih izjava kaje govore o apakrifnosti. Npr. Hamad b. Seleme kaže: "Prenio mi je jedan od rafidijskih šejhova (učitelja) da bi se oni sastajali radi falsifikovanja hadisa". (kako se moze iole dokazati sta je sta???)
3. Nastojanje svim silama nekih nepouzdanih fakiha (islamskih pravnika), da na svaki način brane svoje učenje, pa čak i lažima. U tu svrhu bi svoju pisanu riječ u djelima potkrepljivali apokrifnim hadisima, bilo da su ih oni lično izmišljati, bilo da su to obavljali drugi za njihove potrebe. Njihova smjelost je išla ponekad tako daleko da su znali miješati svoje zaključke donesene na temelju analogije sa hadisima Vjerovjesnika (s) i u njegova usta stavljati tekstove svojih zaključaka do kojih su dolazili svojim idžtihadom. Ti fakihi bili su pretežno pristalice škole koja je posebnu pažnju posvećivala analogiji (navedeno u mom tekstu)
4. Nastranost nekarakternih učenjaka, koji se javljaju u skoro svakoj generaciji uz vladajuću garnituru, da bi se tako dodvorili vlastodršcima i za sebe stekli njihovu naklonost . (navedeno)
5. Pokušaji neznalice da se širokim narodnim masama, dok im drži predavanje, predstavi učenjakom, dovodila je vrlo često do apokrifnih hadisa. Da bi neko takav stekao popularnost u širokim slojevima i da bi onemogućio da mu neznanje otkriju, on je izmišljao čudne stvari i proturao ih kao hadise, a baš ono što je čudno u svakoj bi generaciji privlačilo pažnju običnog građanina.(kao iole dokazati sta je sta?) Ibn Dževzi prenosi interesantan slučaj da su Ahmed b. Hanbel i Jahja b. Me'in klanjali u džamiji Rusafi, kad jedan pripovjedač usta i reče: "Prenijeli su nam Ahmed b. Hanbel i Jahja b. Me'in, a njima, kažu, Abdurezak od Mu'ammera od Katada od Enesa koji kaže da je Vjerovjesnik (s) rekao: "Ko kaže LA ILAHE ILLALLAH, Bog će stvoriti od svake riječi po jednu pticu sa kljunom od zlata i perjem od karala..." Nastavio je da priča takve čudne priče, da bi teško stale i na dvadeset stranica. (pricaci prica za naknadu, a koliko ih NIJE otkriveno?)Jahja b. Me'in i Ahmed b. Hanbel su se međusobno gledali i jedan drugom čudili, pitajući je li to jedan od njih ispričao. Ahmed b. Hanbel dgovara Jahjau da je to tek sada čuo. Kada je mladić završio sa svojom pričom, Jahja b. Me'in mu dade znak da priđe bliže. Mladić koji je primao darove od svijeta, priđe Jahjau u nadi da će i od njega primiti nešto, pogotovo što mu Jahja b. Mu'in daje znak da priđe bliže. Kad mladić pristupi bliže, Jahja b. Me'in ga zapita: Ko ti je prenio ovaj hadis? Ahmed b. Hanbel i Jahja b. Me'in - odgovori mladić. Pa ja sam Jahja - odgovara Jahja, a taj tamo je Ahmed b. Hanbel. Mi nikada nismo čuli za ovakav hadis Vjerovjesnika (s). Ja nisam znao, odgovori pripovjedač, da je Jahja b. Me'in ahmak sve do ovog časa. Pa kao da nema u svijetu drugog Jahja b. Me'ina i Ahmeda b. Hanbela od vas dvojice. Zabilježio sam da je sedamdeset Ahmeda b. Hanbela i Jahja b. Me'ina. Ahmed b. Hanbel stavi ruku na svoje lice i reče Me'inu: Pusti ga, i ovaj ode praveći se kao da ih je ismijao.
6. Bestidnost i drskost pripovjedača priča, koji su se pred stavlja kao uičeni ljudi, imali su za posljedicu izmaštavanje hadisa. Da bi svojim apokrifnim hadisima osigurali popularnost, izmišljali bi i senede i naučili ih napamet, tako da ih mogu ponoviti u svako doba dana i noći. Jedan ili nekoliko seneda kojima su dobro baratali, koristili bi za svaku priliku i priključivali svakom svom apokrifnom hadisu(a za koje se sve NE ZNA?). Takav jedan primjer nam predstavlja Hatim Besti u ličnosti jednog pripovjedača običnih priča i kaže: Unišao sam u jednu džamiju, kad poslije namaza usta jedan mladić i 'reče: Prenio nam je Ebu Hanife, njemu Ebu Velid, prenoseći od Š'u'be, a on od Katade, a Katada od Enesa. Tu citira hadis. Kada je mladi pripovjedač završio, zamolio sam ga da dode bliže. Pripovjedač je došao i ja sam ga zapitao, jesi li već vidio EbuHanifu? Ne, nisam vidio – dgovara pripovjedač. Pa dobro, kako ga spominješ i prenosiš od njega, a njega nikada nisi ni vidio - pitam pripovjedača. Nema smisla.raspravljati s vama o tome. Ja znam samo ovaj lanac prenosilaca i kad god bih čuo kakav hadis, ja bih mu prilijepio ovaj lanac prenosilaca
7. Stavovi nekih asketa i sufija odigrali su značajnu ulogu kod apokrifnosti hadisa. Oni su, s ciljem da privuku narodne mase na neko djelo veoma često izmišljali hadise, a njihovo bavljenje ibadetom pripomagalo je da ih mase prihvate i da se oduševe onim što bi oni izmišljali. Otuda je njihova opasnost daleko viša nego što se može očekivati, jer svojim neznanjem, zamagljuju predstavu o pravom islamu, unose u njega i ono što mu ne pripada(navedena grupa u mom tekstu, kojima je vjerovano).
8. Izmišljanje hadisa od strane pojedinih heretika, koji su, kako kaže Hamad b. Zejd, izmaštali 14000 hadisa. Po ličnom priznanju Abdulkerima b. Ebi Avdža, on je sam izmislio 4000 hadisa. To je priznao u času kad mu je trebala biti odsječenaglava, govoreći: "Sam ja izmislio sam 4000 hadisa kojim se zabranjuje one što je dozvoljeno a dozvoljava ono što je zabranjeno!" (ni sam ih se ne bi mogao sjetiti da bi se raspoznali, kako ce ih se raspoznati nakon toliko stoljeca?)
Zahvaljujući kritičkom pristupu objektivnih učenjaka hadiskih naučnih disciplina i ova pojava je do u detalje razrađena, čak su i djela napisana, i to ne samo o apokrifnosti hadisa, njenoj pojavi i uzrocima, nego i djela u kojima su sabrani apokrifni. hadisi. Najpouzdanije djelo o apokrifnim hadisima je El-Mevdu'at od Ebu Feredža Abdurahmana b. Dževzije (u. 597/1200.). Autor ovog djela prenio je veliki dio apokrifnih hadisa iz djela Ebatil od Dževzekanije, a Dževzekanija je smatrao da je svaki hadis koji proturječi verbalnom ili praktičnom sunetu Vjerovjesnika (s)(a kako znati da je protivrjecan kada se verbali i prakticni sunet iz HADISA i izvlaci?) apokrifan. Kasniji hadiski učenjaci prave prigovor Ibni Dževziju, govoreći da je bio prestrog kod primjene svojih sudova, da je previše pao pod uticaj Dževzekanija i proglasio neke sahih i hasen hadise da su apokrifni, među kojima i jedan iz Muslimova SAHIHA, dvadeset i četiri iz MUSNEDA Ahmeda b. Hanbela. Islamska kritika smatra da je poslije ovih prigovora i osvrta na Dževzijevo djelo unijeto mnogo svjetla u njegovu adekvatnu valorizaciju i učinio ga pristupačnim, jer su ispravili njegov sud o brojnim hadisima za koje on kaže da su apokrifn, nasuprot Hakimu koji je u svom djelu Mustedrek mnoge apokrifne hadise ubrojio u autentične.
Pa i pored toga veoma je teško dati sud da li je neki hadis autentičan odnosno apokrifan, bez primjene ranije spomenutih pet pravila. Mnogi istraživači u tom smislu, da se ne bi pogriješilo u sudu, ukazuju na zlatno pravilo: "Kad vidiš da se hadis suprostavlja zdravom razumu, da je oprečan tradiciji ili nespojiv sa izvorima, znaj da je izmišljen!" Na kraju treba istaći da je nedopustivo prenositi hadis za koji se sigurno zna da je apokrifan, osim ako se, radi nauke, želi ukazati da je apokrifan. Ovakvom sudu ide u prilog i hadis koji navodi Muslim: "Ko od mene prenosi hadis, i primijeti da je laž, i on će biti jedan od lažaca".


Uvod u hadiske znanosti: Hadis I

Napomena: sva podebljanja rijeci originalnog teksta su moja (ne moje rijeci), a podvuceni komentari su moje rijeci.
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Mala istinita anegdota u vezi ovog arapskog imena Dzuraidz.
Kada se moj sin rodio, ja sam mu dala ovo ime (jer se po predaji u Buhariju, tako zvao jedan evlija u doba Musa a.s, - interesantna i poucna prica, ako neko ima cijelih 9 vol. sahih Buharije).
Kada su me u bolnici posjetile neke "velike" muslimanke (koje ocito nikad nisu ni cula to ime a kamoli znale ista o osobi), sve su se "ibretile" kakvo sam to "vlasko" ime dala djeteu? :lol:
Jedna od njih je cak rekla da sam sinu dala srbijansko ime (valjda sto slici Djuradj, ili Djuro) i nazvala me "munafikom"! :shock:
Iako sam im objasnila da je ime arapsko i da je iz te i te predaje (hadisa), i dalje su se "zgledale" sumnjivo.
Kada sam vidjela koliko se frke i prasine podiglo oko imena bebe, odlucila sam ga nazvati Abdur Rahman i morala proci kroz komplikovan proces promjene imena, posto je vec bilo upisano u rodni list.
Nisam htjela da on ima problema kasnije radi NEZNANJA ljudi koji bi se ogrijesili o njega a i dali mu razlog da se osjeca nelagodno.
Ovo je primjer sta bude kada se ne vjeruje vjerniku a koliko se ljudi upustaju u "presudjivanje" i diskusiju bez prijethodnog podrobnog ZNANJA o necemu.
A bog je dovoljan Svjedok i On je Pravedan, ja svakom sve svaki dan halalim jer je Bozija Pravda meni dovoljna, i molim da oprosti svakom ko se o mene ogrijesio bilo kako, jer se i sama nadam oprostu, insan ne moze biti bez grijeha, makar cio zivot samo na sedzdi proveo - nije dovoljno samo se Bogu zahvaliti na svemu i opet bi bili grijesni sto nemasmo prilike da Ga dovoljno slavimo i da dobra djela cinimo... eh..nejse. :)
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da se vratimo na temu:

"Argumenti" koji su izneseni kao PROTIVNI mom stavu, u biti PODRZAVAJU MOJ STAV. Takodje su dokaz da moj pocetni tekst nije "izmisljen" nego je opstepoznat medju onima koji proucavaju nastanak i razvoj hadisa.

Moje pitanje: "Kako neko, zdravog razuma, moze da se osloni na masu pripovjedanja od kojih su neki istiniti a mnogi NISU, i da se, oslanjajuci se na tako labilne autenticnosti, VJERSKI ZAKONI I PRAVILA zasnuju na tome?

Cak i gdje Qur'an JASNO navodi neki zakonski proces (kao npr. kazna za vanbracne odnose bicevanje 100 puta uz svjedocenje 4 osobe) i na mjesto Qur'anskog zakona staviti DRUGI, zasnovan na ovako labilnim predajama (tj. da se pravi razlika izmedju ozenjenih i neozenjenih (sto u Qur'anu ne stoji) i da se primjeni na mjesto toga KAMENOVANJE NA SMRT iako to u Qur'anu ni isaretom nije pomenuto)?

Pa u pitanju je ljudski zivot, toliko dragocjen da ni Bog ne dozvoljava da se oduzme bez jakog razloga, a ODUZET nekome bazirano na predaji - iako Qur'anom Bog to NIJE odredio!...

@Sarafcina uporno ponavlja da ja "ne priznajem" hadis. NIGDJE U MOM TEKSTU TO NIJE IZRECENO. NIGDJE. I on to zna, ali nema cime da se "bori" pa klevetom.

Hadisi su cinjenica, postoje u kakvom god obliku postoje, ali je moj stav, i stav mnogih koji se drze SIGURNOG radije nego NESIGURNOG, da se hadis ne treba koristiti kao osnova VJERSKIH ZAKONA i pravila, jer jednostavno nisu dovoljno sigurni, cak ni 50% sigurni da bi se njih radi doveo u opasnost ljudski zivot i ljudska prava.

I u tekstu, gore-navedenom, (a za koji sam se zahvalila cim je iznesen) koji je iznesen od strane "pro-hadis" zagovornika, ima toliko faktora koji su hadise ucinili nesigurnim i nedovoljno autenticnim da bi se ljudski zivoti oduzimali na osnovu hadisa i da bi se ljudki zivoti komplikovali na osnovu hadisa.

To, i samo to, je moj stav. Ostavimo ono sto je nesigurno (hadis) za ono sto je sigurno (Qur'an). Ni manje ni vise.

Mudrosti koje se nalaze u nekim hadisima su mudrosti, i logicno je da su primjenljive univerzalno. Nista lose u tome. Ali jedno je mudrost i podrzavanje dobrog i odgovaranje od zla (to svaki zakon, ukljucujuci demokratski itd. zastupa, ni po jednom zakonu nije dozvoljeno krasti i slicno) a drugo je VJERSKI ZAKON I PRAVILA o kojima ovise ljudki zivoti i izvan sekularnih zakona.

Nemam namjeru dalje "odgovarati" na postove licne prirode koje sadrze uvredljive izraze i konotacije.

Iako, licno, smatram da je vecina onoga sto je do sada izneseno (osim konkretnih tekstova ucenjaka) od strane nekih, njihovim rijecima, "glupo", "neistinito", "ponavljanje necega nabubanog", "ubjedjenje na osnovu ogranicene iformacije" itd. - ja se ni jednom nisam tako direktno i takvim rijecima nikome, obratila, da ne spominjem druge kao "lazes", "nebulozno" (mada znacenje rijeci je potpuno neshvaceno pri koristenju- "nebulozno" je astronomski termin za "oblake" i druga svojsva nebula tj skupina svemirske materije, npr "nebulozna magla" i sl.) kao i druge izraze nedostojne jedne razumne diskusije.

Smatram da neki jednostavno nisu obrazovani sto se tice argumentacije i kritickog razmisljanja i to je shvatljivo, vecina ljudi nije, to nije sramota - sramota je kada se neko, iako je svjestan da nije upucen dovoljno za dublje diskusije - upusti u nju, i kada ne zna kako da zakljuci diskusiju ocajnicki je "nastavlja" jer se osjeca licno uvrijedjen, srdit, i neadekvatan, pa pocne da se spusta na direktno vrijedjanje i licno prepucavanje. To je samo dokaz da takva osoba nije sposobna da diskutuje i razmjenjuje misljenja a da se istovremeno odgradi od predrasuda i licnih emocija.

Sa takvom osobom nema svrhe diskutovati jer se onda vise ne razmjenjuju misljenja nego se prelazi na uvredljivi dijalog kome ovdje nije mjesto.

S obzirom na sve ovo, postovi koji su licne prirode, sadrze vrijedjanja a ne sadrze konkretna i objektivna, jasno formirana misljenja i argumente - nece biti smatrana dio razmjene misljenja na temu "nastajanje i razvoj hadisa" i takvima se nece ni odgovarati nikakvim daljnjim argumentima, bilo sta da se njima pokusava isprovocirati, bar ne sa moje strane.
Ako neko zeli da odgovara takvim postovima, to je njegovo pravo.

Naravno, jasno izrazena i formirana misljenja ce naici na odgovor, ako vec nije pomenuto, dostojan jedne civilizovane diskusije. Prije daljnjeg diskutovanja, cijenim da se procita sve do sada navedeno (ili barem vecina) da ne bi dolazilo do ponavljanja vec recenog. Hvala.

Kao sto je ranije navedeno, smatram da su iznijeti odredjeni stavovi i misljenja na temu NASTANAK I RAZVOJ HADISA i da je izneseno i vise nego dovoljno informacije da bi svako za sebe sagledao i izvukao svoje zakljucke. Opet ponavljam svako ima pravo da se slozi ili ne slozi sa bilo kojim stavom. Ova tema (kao i mnoge) je previse obimna da bi se mogli iznijeti svi argumenti i sva informacija o njoj. Koga ona dalje i dublje zanima, moze se informisati putem literature i informacije koja je dostupna vecini.

hvala, i mir svima

Sarafcina
Posts: 2260
Joined: 19/09/2005 00:59

#73

Post by Sarafcina » 13/12/2006 16:36

@Sarafcina uporno ponavlja da ja "ne priznajem" hadis. NIGDJE U MOM TEKSTU TO NIJE IZRECENO. NIGDJE. I on to zna, ali nema cime da se "bori" pa klevetom.

Hadisi su cinjenica, postoje u kakvom god obliku postoje, ali je moj stav, i stav mnogih koji se drze SIGURNOG radije nego NESIGURNOG, da se hadis ne treba koristiti kao osnova VJERSKIH ZAKONA i pravila, jer jednostavno nisu dovoljno sigurni, cak ni 50% sigurni da bi se njih radi doveo u opasnost ljudski zivot i ljudska prava.


vidi, ti ako hoces da diskutujes neke fetve i rjesenja u serijatu... ja definitivno nisam osoba koja bi o tome mogla (a i htjela diskutovati). tu se prica o vjerodostojnsti hadisa i snazi predaje i cemu sve ne. ti odbacujes sve, na nacin da "prioritet" dajes svom rezonu, a ne bilo kakvoj uspostavljenoj metodologiji (osim ako to zagovaranje o hadisima, ne nazivas ..)


to da li ti priznajes hadis ili ne ... jednostavno nije relevatno, jer ti kontradiktiras sama sebi. nije to nikakva kleveta. ako ti kazes da izvor islama nije hadis (a u Kur'anu imas jasan tekst po tom pitanju i 1400 godina te prakse), nego da je to istorija.... onda
pretpostavimo dvije situacije
da je to sto "istorija" kaze tacno+kura'nski tekst o slijedjenju poslanika islama= obaveza za tebe da se podvrgnes istorijskom tekstu (ukoliko mozes pokazati da je to tacan tekst-naravno to je sve domen vjerovanja)

ako to sto istorija kaze nije tacno.... onda ti to i ne slijedis :)

e sad primjetimo da ti u "istoriju" ubrajas samo ono sto se TEBI svidja i istovremeno u "hadis" trpas sve sto ti se ne svidja :).


dalje, imas li neki dokaz za iznosenje numericke procjene sigurnosti hadisa (ovo 50%)... jer ti tako olako baratas s tim ocjenama i procjenama. ili si jako jako pametna osoba ili si jako neodgovorna... zaista nema trece.

pisko
Posts: 213
Joined: 31/03/2006 22:04

#74

Post by pisko » 14/12/2006 00:53

Eto, haman mi odbranismo hadise od ove troglave azdahe.
Bosnjo ti je zilav insan, pa ne da hadis pod noge makar mu nikad i ne zatreb'o.
Ako se pak ona neman opet vrne nek' objasni ne cemu pociva serijat i valjal' on cemu...

KOGOD KADGOD
Posts: 789
Joined: 17/11/2006 02:53

#75

Post by KOGOD KADGOD » 14/12/2006 04:24

pisko wrote:Eto, haman mi odbranismo hadise od ove troglave azdahe.
Bosnjo ti je zilav insan, pa ne da hadis pod noge makar mu nikad i ne zatreb'o.
Ako se pak ona neman opet vrne nek' objasni ne cemu pociva serijat i valjal' on cemu...


Samo neko ko sam ne zna kako je nastao "serijat" (iz Qur'ana) i kako se (posto Rijec Allaha dz.s. haman nije bila ni dovoljna ni dovoljno jasna) stoljecima "nadogradjivao" hadisima, moze da nazove vjernika u Qur'an i u Boga Jedinog "troglavom azdahom" i "nemani"...

Neka, makar je navedeno dovoljno informacije da ljudi vide za sebe, sta god "branili" neuki od Bozije Rijeci...
I jasni ajeti su navedeni u vezi sa tim na pocetku rasprave i oni se na Boziju Rijec i ne osvrnu vec krenu u "boj" da "brane" ono sto su od "svojih oceva naslijedili"... Bas kao i Qurejsije... Nejse... Pravi put se jasno razlikuje od zablude.

Boze, oprosti im jer oni ne znaju sta govore.... :( i prihvati od njih ono sto iskreno cine makar bilo i protivno Tvojoj Rijeci, a neiskrenost Ti znas i samo Ti imas pravo i Moc da presudis.... oprosti svim vjernicima Gospodaru i uvedi ih u Dzennet koji si vjernicima obecao...
a onima koji od Tebe ne traze nista osim Tvog zadovoljstva i shvataju da Tebe nije dostojna ni najljepsa misao ni rijec kojom bi te slavili i hvalili, koji znaju da niko ne moze zasluziti nista svojim djelima vec se samo Tvojoj Milosti nadaju, njima podari ono sto si njima obecao... da prebivaju u Tvojoj blizini...

Prosvijetli srca i umove svih ljudi Boze, i pomozi im da se odbrane od Sejtana kojeg si Ti stvorio, i prokleo, i kojeg si Ti Gospodar a kojem si dao vremena da ih zavodi i kusa dok su na Zemlji...

Samo Ti si nas Gospodar i Tebi se utjecemo.

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