Comments from a Turk

Midas1970 · Post by **Midas1970** » 11/11/2006 16:01

I'm glad to see any thread about Turkey or the Turks on this forum. It's tooooo bad I don't speak Bosnian, thus understand nothing !!! I had initially subscribed here to ask questions about Bosnia, not necessarily to make comments about topics.
However, as I see this thread about the "Armenian Genocide (A.G.)" , I can't help but write down my two cents' worth:
This topic has been on the hot-list in Turkish politics and popular culture, since the early seventies. I'd think if you asked 100 Turks what they think about the A.G., I'm sure you'll get 100 different answers. So my views are mine.
The big debate has been about , whether what happened to Armenians in 1915 can be labelled a "genocide".
When you look at the Ottoman Empire from 1870s to 1920s, all you see is mass killings and ethic cleansings, that started as a result of the empire falling apart and the widespread nationalist independence movements.
To name a few:
- Mass killing and ethnic cleansing of Balkan Muslims ( Turks, Pomaks, Gypsies, Bosniaks, Albanians, Greek speaking Muslims etc. ), from throughout the Balkans
- Ethnic cleansing of Muslims ( Turks, Greek speaking Muslims ) from the Aegean Islands.
- Mass killing and ethnic cleansing of Muslims (Turks, Kurds, Azeris) by Armenians in Eastern Turkey
- Ethnic cleansing and mass killing of Armenians by Muslims in Eastern Turkey
- Ethic cleansing and mass killing of various Muslim peoples in the Caucasus by invading Russian Armies
- Ethnic cleansing and mass killing of Turks in Anatolia by invading Greek Armies
- Violent conflict of Muslims and Christians of the Turkish Black Sea coast against one another
- Mass deportations of Turks/Muslims from Greece
- Mass deportations of Greeks/Christians from Turkey
and the list goes on and on....

If it's important to keep a scorecard of who killed and cleansed who in what numbers, I believe all others combined don't even come close to the sufferings of Balkan Muslims in vast numbers.

My own grandmother's story of how she had to walk for 600 kms, as a lonely little girl in a group of Muslim refugees, after the Greeks slaugthered her family in Ionnina,... or my other grandmother's story of how the Russian soldiers killed her father while she was in his arms, only because he happened to be a Muslim Georgian, is not any more or any less sad than the story of the Armenian grandmother who lost her whole family to the Turkish/Kurdish bullets.

I find it hard to swallow that, among all these overlapping or parallel mass killings, ethnic cleansings and genocides, only one is convenienetly pulled out with a pair of tweezers, and all others are conveniently ignored.
I guess some bloods are more valuable than others.

Thanks for your time to read
Murat

Grom iz vedra neba · Post by **Grom iz vedra neba** » 11/11/2006 16:51

Merhaba Murat

I will tell you my point of view. First, I am Bosniak and I am very familiar with Ottoman Empire history in the Balkans, but not in Armenia, so I cannot comment the historical facts or alleged facts about Armenian case.

Ottoman Empire was the most liberal Empire or state in the world, then. Christian Europe was very hostile to other religions so it cannot be compared to Ottomans (inquisition, crusades, burning people because they said that the Earth was not the center of Universe etc.).

What I know for sure is that this is just a provocation from France (no metter is that true or not) in order to stop Turkey to become a member of Europian Union. France should first make a law about genocide that it commited to Algerians, then a law about their role in genocide commited by Serbs/Croats in Bosnia, because their president did't want to stop it, and he was asked to do so.

I have to tell you that, EU will never let Turkey become a memeber of EU, they will make another excuses etc. because you are muslim country. So you should turn to yourself and your neighbours, not to EU, because you are just wasting your time.

Look at Iran, they developed their country although they were under sanctions by West. You should do the same thing. You have to develope your country to become strong. You don't have to be shamed of your history, great Empire. I know that Kemal Ataturk did some stupid things, when he forbade the tradition (wearing the headscarf or fez etc.) Look at the Japane, they never rejected their cultural heritage, but they are the world leaders in technology. Do the same! Regards.

Dezze · Post by **Dezze** » 11/11/2006 18:10

Grom iz vedra neba wrote:Merhaba Murat

I have to tell you that, EU will never let Turkey become a memeber of EU, they will make another excuses etc. because you are muslim country. So you should turn to yourself and your neighbours, not to EU, because you are just wasting your time.

Look at Iran, they developed their country although they were under sanctions by West. You should do the same thing. You have to develope your country to become strong. You don't have to be shamed of your history, great Empire. I know that Kemal Ataturk did some stupid things, when he forbade the tradition (wearing the headscarf or fez etc.) Look at the Japane, they never rejected their cultural heritage, but they are the world leaders in technology. Do the same! Regards.

I'm sure Murat will pass your recommendations to the prime minister of Turkey

gavrilo · Post by **gavrilo** » 11/11/2006 18:17

Grom iz vedra neba wrote:Look at Iran, they developed their country although they were under sanctions by West. You should do the same thing.

I know that Kemal Ataturk did some stupid things, when he forbade the tradition (wearing the headscarf or fez etc.)

PipiDugaDevetka · Post by **PipiDugaDevetka** » 11/11/2006 18:56

Grom iz vedra neba wrote:Merhaba Murat

I will tell you my point of view. First, I am Bosniak and I am very familiar with Ottoman Empire history in the Balkans, but not in Armenia, so I cannot comment the historical facts or alleged facts about Armenian case.

Ottoman Empire was the most liberal Empire or state in the world, then. Christian Europe was very hostile to other religions so it cannot be compared to Ottomans (inquisition, crusades, burning people because they said that the Earth was not the center of Universe etc.).

What I know for sure is that this is just a provocation from France (no metter is that true or not) in order to stop Turkey to become a member of Europian Union. France should first make a law about genocide that it commited to Algerians, then a law about their role in genocide commited by Serbs/Croats in Bosnia, because their president did't want to stop it, and he was asked to do so.

I have to tell you that, EU will never let Turkey become a memeber of EU, they will make another excuses etc. because you are muslim country. So you should turn to yourself and your neighbours, not to EU, because you are just wasting your time.

Look at Iran, they developed their country although they were under sanctions by West. You should do the same thing. You have to develope your country to become strong. You don't have to be shamed of your history, great Empire. I know that Kemal Ataturk did some stupid things, when he forbade the tradition (wearing the headscarf or fez etc.) Look at the Japane, they never rejected their cultural heritage, but they are the world leaders in technology. Do the same! Regards.

Achk olsum!

Grom iz vedra neba · Post by **Grom iz vedra neba** » 11/11/2006 21:45

gavrilo wrote:
Grom iz vedra neba wrote:Look at Iran, they developed their country although they were under sanctions by West. You should do the same thing.

I know that Kemal Ataturk did some stupid things, when he forbade the tradition (wearing the headscarf or fez etc.)

Just to clarify, that our dear forum collegue @Gavrilo is very emotional when he reads about Turks, as he is a Serb, and your two nations had very difficult fight in Kosovo field in 1389

Shoshana · Post by **Shoshana** » 11/11/2006 21:56

Grom iz vedra neba wrote:
gavrilo wrote:
Grom iz vedra neba wrote:Look at Iran, they developed their country although they were under sanctions by West. You should do the same thing.

I know that Kemal Ataturk did some stupid things, when he forbade the tradition (wearing the headscarf or fez etc.)

Just to clarify, that our dear forum collegue @Gavrilo is very emotional when he reads about Turks, as he is a Serb, and your two nations had very difficult fight in Kosovo field in 1389

I think Gavrilo was simply shocked by your ignorance. No more nor less... Turkey is already more developed than Iran - they have nothing to learn there. And headscarf and fez are doubtlessly symbol for prosperity and welfare all around the world...

Grom iz vedra neba · Post by **Grom iz vedra neba** » 11/11/2006 21:58

Shoshana wrote:
Grom iz vedra neba wrote:
gavrilo wrote:

Just to clarify, that our dear forum collegue @Gavrilo is very emotional when he reads about Turks, as he is a Serb, and your two nations had very difficult fight in Kosovo field in 1389
I think Gavrilo was simply shocked by your ignorance. No more nor less... Turkey is already more developed than Iran - they have nothing to learn there. And headscarf and fez are doubtlessly symbol for prosperity and welfare all around the world...

I don't know who did you want to insult, people who used to wear fez or muslim women?

Dezze · Post by **Dezze** » 11/11/2006 22:00

Shoshana wrote:
Grom iz vedra neba wrote:
gavrilo wrote:

Just to clarify, that our dear forum collegue @Gavrilo is very emotional when he reads about Turks, as he is a Serb, and your two nations had very difficult fight in Kosovo field in 1389
I think Gavrilo was simply shocked by your ignorance. No more nor less... Turkey is already more developed than Iran - they have nothing to learn there. And headscarf and fez are doubtlessly symbol for prosperity and welfare all around the world...

That's for sure! It's your problem if you don't get that

And we all lived happily ever after becoming a part of the Ottoman empire

Shoshana · Post by **Shoshana** » 11/11/2006 22:05

Grom iz vedra neba wrote: I don't know who did you want to insult, people who used to wear fez or muslim women?

I see your mouth moving, but all I'm getting is: blah blah...

Grom iz vedra neba · Post by **Grom iz vedra neba** » 11/11/2006 22:09

Dezze wrote:
Shoshana wrote:
Grom iz vedra neba wrote: Just to clarify, that our dear forum collegue @Gavrilo is very emotional when he reads about Turks, as he is a Serb, and your two nations had very difficult fight in Kosovo field in 1389
I think Gavrilo was simply shocked by your ignorance. No more nor less... Turkey is already more developed than Iran - they have nothing to learn there. And headscarf and fez are doubtlessly symbol for prosperity and welfare all around the world...
That's for sure! It's your problem if you don't get that

And we all lived happily ever after becoming a part of the Ottoman empire

Christian nuns also wear haeadscarfs:

As well as Virgin Mary:

And this is the greates Serbian linguist:

Can you identify that cap on his head?

So your cynicism is not even original...sadly...

Pretposljednji Mohikanac · Post by **Pretposljednji Mohikanac** » 11/11/2006 23:38

ooo turkey...hakan sukur ovo ono

fenerbahce

elvir baljic

please do not think that grom's attitude towards the great Ataturk is shared by all of bosnian muslims

gavrilo · Post by **gavrilo** » 12/11/2006 16:11

Pretposljednji Mohikanac wrote:please do not think that grom's attitude towards the great Ataturk is shared by all of bosnian muslims

finally ...

gavrilo · Post by **gavrilo** » 12/11/2006 16:15

Grom iz vedra neba wrote:Just to clarify, that our dear forum collegue @Gavrilo is very emotional when he reads about Turks, as he is a Serb, and your two nations had very difficult fight in Kosovo field in 1389

beside the fact that a lot of my friends are turks, every turk i know, would kick your ass for insulting the father of the turkish nation

mr__bosnjak · Post by **mr__bosnjak** » 12/11/2006 20:57

I don´t know that much about Turkish history, so I can´t say if the war crimes commited by Turks and Kurds against the Armenians(wich was as you said not the only war crimes being commited at the time) was a genocide.

But I think that France should get a foot in ther ass. Specielly considering that they in-direcly supported the Serbien and Croatian genocid against Bosniacs. And sense they also commited crimes against Algerians wich could be classified as a genocide to, and that they sent about 150.000 Algerians loyal to France straigt to death back to Algeria after fighting on the French side in Algerian riot. Also they are very discrimminating against immigrants in their country.

About Turkey in the EU, I think that Turkey is before Croatia, Bulgaria and Rumania but the only reason why Austria, Germany and some others doesen´t want Turkey their is Islam, and not 2 million or 6 million Muslims like in Bosnia and Albania but 70 million Muslims!

I think Turkey should not let EU play them like bitches but built their own country and show how powerful they can be, and be proud of their grate and britest history in hole Europe, so if EU wants they can get Turkey if not a strong country like Turkey can find friends otherwise.
Es-selamu aleykum!

emac · Post by **emac** » 12/11/2006 21:24

gavrilo wrote:
Grom iz vedra neba wrote:Just to clarify, that our dear forum collegue @Gavrilo is very emotional when he reads about Turks, as he is a Serb, and your two nations had very difficult fight in Kosovo field in 1389

beside the fact that a lot of my friends are turks, every turk i know, would kick your ass for insulting the father of the turkish nation

You are 100 % right, they are big nationalists, I even know that there are neighbourhoods where you can get killed if you step on the Turksih flag. As far as Ataturk is conserned he was good for Turkey as far as the war for freedom is conserned but steps he took afterwards were too extreem and such they can not be good and as a result Turkey was crapy country till 1990's and know very prosperous.
And they are our, and by our I refer to Balkans muslims, best friends in the whole world, since we can not be in good relationship with our blood brothers Serbs and Croats.

mr__bosnjak · Post by **mr__bosnjak** » 12/11/2006 22:12

hajde brzo pisem a engelski mi nije ni maternji nit ga redovno koristim.

Mislim da se radi o jednom "Svedu" sto je se pojavljivao na bivso-jugoslavenskom forumu Passagen.se(koji sada vise ne postoji), imao je odlican Svedski, a i Engleski, pravio se neutralan a ustvari stalno gurao srpske teze i posto je tu najvise bilo Srba i Albanaca kojekakve teze sto Kosovo ne moze bit nezavisno, i to sve iz "europske perspektive". Ja nisam odmah ga skuzio jer je bio veoma mudar pa sam mu cak dao ovaj link da dodje, bezbel se registrovao i sad se pravi Turcin. Istovremeno je na passagen-u izmjenio hiljadu i jedno ime a uvijek furao isto dok nije doslo do toga da su Albanci babijani sto vrse incest a Bosnjaci prljave poturice. Mogao bi biti on, ali ne kazem zasigurno da covjeka ne odmah ne osudite.

Grom iz vedra neba · Post by **Grom iz vedra neba** » 13/11/2006 12:44

Midas1970 wrote:
Kel'Thalas wrote:Murat bey otuz bir chekiyor musun?Bunu sormaliydim chunku chok shubelisin oglum.Niye turkche konushamiyorsun?
Otuzbiri bilemem ama Otuzbes yildir Turkce anliyor, konusuyor, okuyor ve yaziyorum Kel Thalas... Supheli bir durum yok anlayacagin.... I'm already writing in a foreign language (English) on a Bosnian forum, and I don't see the point of introducing a second one (Turkish), which is probably not spoken by 99% of the subscribers....
Sevgiler....

Midas we would like to know that you are really a Turk, so you should speak Turkish not just one sentece, but discuss with people who speak turkish here, because there are many provocations, some users present themselves as somebody else...And one sentece is not just enough, anyone can translate that...

Bosanac sa dna kace · Post by **Bosanac sa dna kace** » 13/11/2006 12:57

Grom iz vedra neba wrote:
Midas1970 wrote:
Kel'Thalas wrote:Murat bey otuz bir chekiyor musun?Bunu sormaliydim chunku chok shubelisin oglum.Niye turkche konushamiyorsun?
Otuzbiri bilemem ama Otuzbes yildir Turkce anliyor, konusuyor, okuyor ve yaziyorum Kel Thalas... Supheli bir durum yok anlayacagin.... I'm already writing in a foreign language (English) on a Bosnian forum, and I don't see the point of introducing a second one (Turkish), which is probably not spoken by 99% of the subscribers....
Sevgiler....
Midas we would like to know that you are really a Turk, so you should speak Turkish not just one sentece, but discuss with people who speak turkish here, because there are many provocations, some users present themselves as somebody else...And one sentece is not just enough, anyone can translate that...

so he should translete me meanings of the words plain twill and nep to turkish!

_BosanaC · Post by **_BosanaC** » 13/11/2006 15:56

zoom66 wrote:boys, use english please!!!

Jimmy_The_Saint · Post by **Jimmy_The_Saint** » 13/11/2006 16:01

Jagshemash!

Dijer brader Murat, so sori ju turkish pipl hev komplikejted klix in Balkan over vorld. Armenia gud chiken genocide hristian kill end juws olso. Juws propaganda kill palestine brader musulman. Ivel juws kil evrywere musulman. Wi mast fayt tugewer for musulman brader juws dirti pigs end skam. Asker mashalla grove Bosniak mather born, help Turkish brether in fayt of juw end for palestina rayts.

Welkam to aur homepeyge, I kiss you!

Midas1970 · Post by **Midas1970** » 13/11/2006 16:13

Jimmy_The_Saint wrote:Jagshemash!

Dijer brader Murat, so sori ju turkish pipl hev komplikejted klix in Balkan over vorld. Armenia gud chiken genocide hristian kill end juws olso. Juws propaganda kill palestine brader musulman. Ivel juws kil evrywere musulman. Wi mast fayt tugewer for musulman brader juws dirti pigs end skam. Asker mashalla grove Bosniak mather born, help Turkish brether in fayt of juw end for palestina rayts.

Welkam to aur homepeyge, I kiss you!

I see Borat has invaded Bosnia too

Chingui....

uozo · Post by **uozo** » 13/11/2006 16:13

Jimmy_The_Saint wrote:Jagshemash!

Dijer brader Murat, so sori ju turkish pipl hev komplikejted klix in Balkan over vorld. Armenia gud chiken genocide hristian kill end juws olso. Juws propaganda kill palestine brader musulman. Ivel juws kil evrywere musulman. Wi mast fayt tugewer for musulman brader juws dirti pigs end skam. Asker mashalla grove Bosniak mather born, help Turkish brether in fayt of juw end for palestina rayts.

Welkam to aur homepeyge, I kiss you!

Ergot · Post by **Ergot** » 13/11/2006 16:27

Jimmy_The_Saint wrote:Jagshemash!

Dijer brader Murat, so sori ju turkish pipl hev komplikejted klix in Balkan over vorld. Armenia gud chiken genocide hristian kill end juws olso. Juws propaganda kill palestine brader musulman. Ivel juws kil evrywere musulman. Wi mast fayt tugewer for musulman brader juws dirti pigs end skam. Asker mashalla grove Bosniak mather born, help Turkish brether in fayt of juw end for palestina rayts.

Welkam to aur homepeyge, I kiss you!

Foken ´ell, I´ve just sprayed tea all over the monitor.

Bosanac sa dna kace · Post by **Bosanac sa dna kace** » 13/11/2006 19:08

ah allright moderators sorry!

well he could be also an armenian! as far as I know Murat is also Armenian name

, as I remember there is even saint Murat in Armenian church!

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