Malo kasnim na divan, a ovo je ionako sve što želim reći na ovu temu.
Albanske zastave za Dan zastave
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Jimmy_The_Saint
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#76
Malo kasnim na divan, a ovo je ionako sve što želim reći na ovu temu.
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NebaA
- Posts: 49
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#77
Cestitam Jimmy, veoma konstruktivno, ali mislim da slika jedne zastave ne resava problem i ne cini sustini vise razumljivijom.
Serloce, ranije nisu imali prava na formiranje nacionalnog saveta i na svoje simbole, sada imaju. Sva prava koja su obicni gradjani svih nacionalnosti imali ranijim ustavom uglavnom su za vreme Milosevica bila mrtvo slovo na pairu. Od dolaska DOS posle 05.10.2000. godine vise nisu. Sada se zaista vodi racuna o svim nacionalnim manjinama. Ponavljam - SVIM nacionalnim manjinama. Novi ustav posebno daje evropska resenja u pogledu zastite prava i obicaja pripadnika nacionalnih manjina. I to je jedan od razloga zasto se menjao ustav.
Mozda Marko stize kasno na Kosovo, ali ne i na jug Srbije. Potrebno je samo postovati svoju drzavu, nije to toliko tesko uzimajuci u obzir da ti drzava pruza mogucnosti i da te postuje kao gradjanina.
Serloce, ranije nisu imali prava na formiranje nacionalnog saveta i na svoje simbole, sada imaju. Sva prava koja su obicni gradjani svih nacionalnosti imali ranijim ustavom uglavnom su za vreme Milosevica bila mrtvo slovo na pairu. Od dolaska DOS posle 05.10.2000. godine vise nisu. Sada se zaista vodi racuna o svim nacionalnim manjinama. Ponavljam - SVIM nacionalnim manjinama. Novi ustav posebno daje evropska resenja u pogledu zastite prava i obicaja pripadnika nacionalnih manjina. I to je jedan od razloga zasto se menjao ustav.
Mozda Marko stize kasno na Kosovo, ali ne i na jug Srbije. Potrebno je samo postovati svoju drzavu, nije to toliko tesko uzimajuci u obzir da ti drzava pruza mogucnosti i da te postuje kao gradjanina.
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Jimmy_The_Saint
- Posts: 2435
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#78
Nisam ja Hashim Thaqi da rješavam probleme. 
Ni Sllobodan Milosheviq da ih pravim.
Ni Sllobodan Milosheviq da ih pravim.
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SherlockHolmes
- Posts: 1259
- Joined: 27/02/2005 23:58
#79
NebA, cini mi se da se jos uvijek ne cujemo dobro.
Zato, da ponovim: njima se (sa potpunim pravom), bas kao i dobrom dijelu svijeta, zivo jebe za komitete i komisije koje bi im ti, Kostunica, Tadic i ekipa dali na "jugu Srbije".
Da i ja ne ispadnem destruktivan kao Jimmy, jerbo nije fer prema tolikoj mudrosti: Ima pred pristinskim univerzitetom jedan dobar plato, pa rezervisi vrijeme, objavi zaludjenim ovcama i slobodno iznesi sve konstruktivne prijedloge. Pojasni ta manjinska prava koja bi im, merhametli kakav si, dao da te ko pita. Ipak je to jug Srbije.
Zato, da ponovim: njima se (sa potpunim pravom), bas kao i dobrom dijelu svijeta, zivo jebe za komitete i komisije koje bi im ti, Kostunica, Tadic i ekipa dali na "jugu Srbije".
Da i ja ne ispadnem destruktivan kao Jimmy, jerbo nije fer prema tolikoj mudrosti: Ima pred pristinskim univerzitetom jedan dobar plato, pa rezervisi vrijeme, objavi zaludjenim ovcama i slobodno iznesi sve konstruktivne prijedloge. Pojasni ta manjinska prava koja bi im, merhametli kakav si, dao da te ko pita. Ipak je to jug Srbije.
Last edited by SherlockHolmes on 30/11/2006 13:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Jimmy_The_Saint
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#80
Nisam ja destruktivan. Ja sam samo Šiptar.
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danas
- Posts: 18796
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#81
'We Are All Albanians'
by SLAVENKA DRAKULIC
[from the June 7, 1999 issue of The Nation]
The other day on the BBC news I saw a young, educated and eloquent Serbian woman speaking about the life of ordinary citizens under the NATO bombing. The Serbian citizens are afraid, she said. Normal life is more and more difficult. There are power cuts, and people are forced to go several days without access to the Internet. There is also a cigarette shortage. But yes, they are trying to live normally. They go to work, they shop, and they sit in cafes. Of course, the bombing turned the Serbian citizens against NATO, not against Slobodan Milosevic. After all, "bombs are dropping from the sky."
Clearly, this young woman, like so many Serbs, does not want to understand that her country is at war. They still seem to be thinking, What has all this to do with me? I know this mechanism of denial, because I have seen it before. Serbs by and large ignored the wars in Croatia and Bosnia. It was always happening somewhere else, to somebody else, and they were not involved. It was the Serbian army, the police, the paramilitaries, but not them, the ordinary citizens. But now, when it is happening in Serbia and affecting all of them, they are still somehow surprised.
The young woman on TV used the expression "Serbian citizens," but her use of this phrase suggested that these Serbian citizens are people struggling to maintain the normality of their daily lives. By "Serbian citizens" she evidently meant only Serbs. Others--that is, Albanians--are simply never mentioned in that context. Their problems are not addressed, by her or other Serbs. In the perception of ordinary Serbs, Albanians are not included in the category of Serbian citizen and therefore are absent from the language as well.
Why? The problem is that Serbs--or anyone else, for that matter--cannot identify with the suffering of others if they are not able to see them as equals. In Yugoslav society Albanians were never visible. There was no need to construct their "otherness"--as, for example, with Jews in prewar Germany or recently with Serbs in Croatia. The Albanians were never integrated into the country's social, political and cultural life. They existed separately from us, barely visible people on the margins of our society, with their strange language that nobody understood, their tribal organization, blood feuds, different habits and dress. They were always underdogs. What was their place in the Yugoslav literature, in movies and popular culture? What famous Yugoslavs were Albanians? Because of that estrangement, not many voices were raised in protest during the past ten years, when Albanians in Kosovo lived practically under apartheid.
For the older generation, the only visible Albanians were people in white caps coming from Kosovo to their cities to cut wood in the winter. For my generation they were people selling ice cream all over Yugoslavia. They spoke our language with a funny accent and never could pronounce "lemonade" properly. They lived among us, but we chose to ignore them. If we did happen to notice them, we despised them, laughed at them, told jokes about them. I never had an Albanian friend in Zagreb. No one I knew married an Albanian. But the difference between Croats and Serbs was that Croats did not really have to deal with the Albanians; we had no Kosovo.
It was clear that they belonged to a different category from Serbs, Croats, Macedonians, Montenegrins or Slovenes. Serbs could even fight a war against Croats, but they never perceived each other in the same way they both perceive Albanians. The prejudice against Albanians can be compared to that against Jews or blacks or Gypsies in other cultures. Today every Serb will tell you that Albanians multiply like rabbits--that this is their secret weapon in the war they are waging against Serbs in Kosovo. This is not nationalism; this is more or less hidden racism.
The woman on the BBC the other day may be only an ordinary person, but there are other Serbs who should know better and who can't use the excuse of innocence so easily. They are the people in the opposition. But all one hears from them is their lament about the destruction of democracy and civil society in Serbia. The NATO bombing is to them a savage attack, a terrible act of aggression against a sovereign state--they all use the language of Milosevic's propaganda. There is "the other Serbia" they say, a better Serbia of the brave people who fought Milosevic all along.
Surely there is another Serbia that will surface once Milosevic is gone. And surely everyone can understand that opposition people are afraid now. One is tempted, however, to ask, Exactly what opposition, what civil society, what "other Serbia" are we talking about? The one that for more than a decade was not able to produce a democratic alternative to Milosevic? The one that never established contacts with Albanians from Kosovo in order to work together for the common future of both nations? If the opposition, political as well as intellectual, ever had anything in common with Milosevic, it was in its attitude toward Kosovo. Kosovo Albanians were a litmus test for the opposition all these years, and they always failed it. Now they are engulfed in self-pity.
An open letter from Vladimir Arsenijevic, a young Serbian writer of some renown, circulating on e-mail, is a striking example of this invisibility of Albanians. In his answer to a friend from Zagreb, who reproached Serbs for their lack of remorse over the situation of the Albanians, he wrote: "On account of lack of pity for the fate of Kosovo Albanians, I know (from my own experience--and I know that I have no bad feelings whatsoever directed toward anybody, least of all Albanians) that it is very hard to care about somebody else's problems if you are personally experiencing major problems of your own at the same moment. There is no favoritism in this society. Everybody is too busy surviving here to be able to feel any remorse.... Remorse is a privilege of the well-nourished, clean and civilized. And we are all Albanians here. All of us: Serbs, Montenegrins, Hungarians, Slovaks.... Poor, underfed, degraded, oppressed. And I mean ALL of us, even those who have supported Milosevic with all their heart through all these years of terrible hell."
There is something almost obscene in this sudden "visibility" of Albanians, in the Serbs' desire to achieve the status of victim through this kind of identification. Albanians remain an abstraction, an empty notion with no real substance, used solely as a means of adding visibility to Serbian suffering, thus denying the Albanian identity once more. I can see this young writer sitting at his computer (there must have been no shortage of power then) in his Belgrade apartment: He sends his e-mail letter, checks the latest war information on the Internet and goes to bed. Meanwhile, his Albanian counterpart, with whose suffering he identifies so much, sits in a tent somewhere in Albania or stands in the mud, waiting to cross the Macedonian border. His house is burned down, his computer--if he ever had one--has been taken by Serbian paramilitaries and he doesn't know where his family is.
If the young writer considers himself an Albanian, why is he not fleeing to Macedonia or Albania as well? How cynical--or young or innocent or perhaps stupid--do you have to be to say that? It is as grotesque as if the Germans, after World War II, had said, "We were all Jews." After all, had they not suffered occupation, bombardment, rationing?
The writer means to say that if the Serbs are victims, then how can they possibly have anything to do with the responsibility for this war? Or for the Milosevic regime? War goes deeper than bombardment, and the more we pretend it doesn't concern us, the more it invades us. War is destructive of the human soul. It corrodes human beings, bringing out things we didn't know about ourselves. And when he says that remorse is a privilege of civilized people, he puts himself and his nation on the level of people without pity. He is justifying the inhumanity of his people, and that is terrible.
This is what the war is doing to the young writer. But like the woman on the BBC, as well as ordinary people and opposition intellectuals, he is not able to realize that. Precisely this denial, blindness, unconscious racism and cruelty toward other human beings, this lack of remorse (but no lack of self-pity!), is what war is doing to Serbs, and it is much more devastating than NATO bombs. Living with Milosevic's regime and the war for so long takes its toll. It has changed Serbs in the past ten years, and the rest of the world is witnessing this only now, still puzzled and bewildered by it. It is hard to understand that our acquaintances, our lovers, drinking buddies, philosophers, our once dear friends, are different people. It is even harder to understand that they themselves let that change happen.
by SLAVENKA DRAKULIC
[from the June 7, 1999 issue of The Nation]
The other day on the BBC news I saw a young, educated and eloquent Serbian woman speaking about the life of ordinary citizens under the NATO bombing. The Serbian citizens are afraid, she said. Normal life is more and more difficult. There are power cuts, and people are forced to go several days without access to the Internet. There is also a cigarette shortage. But yes, they are trying to live normally. They go to work, they shop, and they sit in cafes. Of course, the bombing turned the Serbian citizens against NATO, not against Slobodan Milosevic. After all, "bombs are dropping from the sky."
Clearly, this young woman, like so many Serbs, does not want to understand that her country is at war. They still seem to be thinking, What has all this to do with me? I know this mechanism of denial, because I have seen it before. Serbs by and large ignored the wars in Croatia and Bosnia. It was always happening somewhere else, to somebody else, and they were not involved. It was the Serbian army, the police, the paramilitaries, but not them, the ordinary citizens. But now, when it is happening in Serbia and affecting all of them, they are still somehow surprised.
The young woman on TV used the expression "Serbian citizens," but her use of this phrase suggested that these Serbian citizens are people struggling to maintain the normality of their daily lives. By "Serbian citizens" she evidently meant only Serbs. Others--that is, Albanians--are simply never mentioned in that context. Their problems are not addressed, by her or other Serbs. In the perception of ordinary Serbs, Albanians are not included in the category of Serbian citizen and therefore are absent from the language as well.
Why? The problem is that Serbs--or anyone else, for that matter--cannot identify with the suffering of others if they are not able to see them as equals. In Yugoslav society Albanians were never visible. There was no need to construct their "otherness"--as, for example, with Jews in prewar Germany or recently with Serbs in Croatia. The Albanians were never integrated into the country's social, political and cultural life. They existed separately from us, barely visible people on the margins of our society, with their strange language that nobody understood, their tribal organization, blood feuds, different habits and dress. They were always underdogs. What was their place in the Yugoslav literature, in movies and popular culture? What famous Yugoslavs were Albanians? Because of that estrangement, not many voices were raised in protest during the past ten years, when Albanians in Kosovo lived practically under apartheid.
For the older generation, the only visible Albanians were people in white caps coming from Kosovo to their cities to cut wood in the winter. For my generation they were people selling ice cream all over Yugoslavia. They spoke our language with a funny accent and never could pronounce "lemonade" properly. They lived among us, but we chose to ignore them. If we did happen to notice them, we despised them, laughed at them, told jokes about them. I never had an Albanian friend in Zagreb. No one I knew married an Albanian. But the difference between Croats and Serbs was that Croats did not really have to deal with the Albanians; we had no Kosovo.
It was clear that they belonged to a different category from Serbs, Croats, Macedonians, Montenegrins or Slovenes. Serbs could even fight a war against Croats, but they never perceived each other in the same way they both perceive Albanians. The prejudice against Albanians can be compared to that against Jews or blacks or Gypsies in other cultures. Today every Serb will tell you that Albanians multiply like rabbits--that this is their secret weapon in the war they are waging against Serbs in Kosovo. This is not nationalism; this is more or less hidden racism.
The woman on the BBC the other day may be only an ordinary person, but there are other Serbs who should know better and who can't use the excuse of innocence so easily. They are the people in the opposition. But all one hears from them is their lament about the destruction of democracy and civil society in Serbia. The NATO bombing is to them a savage attack, a terrible act of aggression against a sovereign state--they all use the language of Milosevic's propaganda. There is "the other Serbia" they say, a better Serbia of the brave people who fought Milosevic all along.
Surely there is another Serbia that will surface once Milosevic is gone. And surely everyone can understand that opposition people are afraid now. One is tempted, however, to ask, Exactly what opposition, what civil society, what "other Serbia" are we talking about? The one that for more than a decade was not able to produce a democratic alternative to Milosevic? The one that never established contacts with Albanians from Kosovo in order to work together for the common future of both nations? If the opposition, political as well as intellectual, ever had anything in common with Milosevic, it was in its attitude toward Kosovo. Kosovo Albanians were a litmus test for the opposition all these years, and they always failed it. Now they are engulfed in self-pity.
An open letter from Vladimir Arsenijevic, a young Serbian writer of some renown, circulating on e-mail, is a striking example of this invisibility of Albanians. In his answer to a friend from Zagreb, who reproached Serbs for their lack of remorse over the situation of the Albanians, he wrote: "On account of lack of pity for the fate of Kosovo Albanians, I know (from my own experience--and I know that I have no bad feelings whatsoever directed toward anybody, least of all Albanians) that it is very hard to care about somebody else's problems if you are personally experiencing major problems of your own at the same moment. There is no favoritism in this society. Everybody is too busy surviving here to be able to feel any remorse.... Remorse is a privilege of the well-nourished, clean and civilized. And we are all Albanians here. All of us: Serbs, Montenegrins, Hungarians, Slovaks.... Poor, underfed, degraded, oppressed. And I mean ALL of us, even those who have supported Milosevic with all their heart through all these years of terrible hell."
There is something almost obscene in this sudden "visibility" of Albanians, in the Serbs' desire to achieve the status of victim through this kind of identification. Albanians remain an abstraction, an empty notion with no real substance, used solely as a means of adding visibility to Serbian suffering, thus denying the Albanian identity once more. I can see this young writer sitting at his computer (there must have been no shortage of power then) in his Belgrade apartment: He sends his e-mail letter, checks the latest war information on the Internet and goes to bed. Meanwhile, his Albanian counterpart, with whose suffering he identifies so much, sits in a tent somewhere in Albania or stands in the mud, waiting to cross the Macedonian border. His house is burned down, his computer--if he ever had one--has been taken by Serbian paramilitaries and he doesn't know where his family is.
If the young writer considers himself an Albanian, why is he not fleeing to Macedonia or Albania as well? How cynical--or young or innocent or perhaps stupid--do you have to be to say that? It is as grotesque as if the Germans, after World War II, had said, "We were all Jews." After all, had they not suffered occupation, bombardment, rationing?
The writer means to say that if the Serbs are victims, then how can they possibly have anything to do with the responsibility for this war? Or for the Milosevic regime? War goes deeper than bombardment, and the more we pretend it doesn't concern us, the more it invades us. War is destructive of the human soul. It corrodes human beings, bringing out things we didn't know about ourselves. And when he says that remorse is a privilege of civilized people, he puts himself and his nation on the level of people without pity. He is justifying the inhumanity of his people, and that is terrible.
This is what the war is doing to the young writer. But like the woman on the BBC, as well as ordinary people and opposition intellectuals, he is not able to realize that. Precisely this denial, blindness, unconscious racism and cruelty toward other human beings, this lack of remorse (but no lack of self-pity!), is what war is doing to Serbs, and it is much more devastating than NATO bombs. Living with Milosevic's regime and the war for so long takes its toll. It has changed Serbs in the past ten years, and the rest of the world is witnessing this only now, still puzzled and bewildered by it. It is hard to understand that our acquaintances, our lovers, drinking buddies, philosophers, our once dear friends, are different people. It is even harder to understand that they themselves let that change happen.
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Jimmy_The_Saint
- Posts: 2435
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#82
Šarafeta, daj ovo prevedi, oči me bole od 'volikog umproforskog 
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Kula08
- Posts: 52
- Joined: 12/10/2006 20:11
#84
Neznam odakle da počnem, a da ne budem preopširan. Geneza odnosa na relaciji "Bošnjaci - Albanci" je poduža, naravno da pri tom mislim na Bošnjake i tzv.Sandzaka i one koji žive na Kosovu, mada se ni odnosu Bošnjaka iz BiH prema Albancima nema šta prigovoriti.SherlockHolmes wrote:Sifra sjeti se, pa makar spomeni, posebno kada vec pises o bosnjackom merhametu:Kula08 wrote:Mozes li biti malo konkretniji, neznam nasta mislis?SherlockHolmes wrote: Vrlo dobro napisano, mada epski sroceno. Kada upotpunis onime sto si "zaboravio" (period do i za Slobe, ponajvise), odvadis malo "mi"/"oni", rado cu se u principu sloziti sa tobom.
- Odnosa bh politicara i intelektualne "elite", danas velikih Bosnjaka prema "albanskom problemu"
- Milicijskih ispomoci -- rado Bosnjak ide u milicionere
- Ponasanja i odnosa Bosnjaka u JNA prema Albancima u istoj
- Ponasanja/svrstavanja/(ne)reagiranja dijela Bosnjaka na Kosovu, i sl
Naravno, ovo ne opravdava nijedno ubistvo ili maltretiranje pa koga god bilo, ali vjerovatno ipak malo balansira tvoj rad na temu "Bosnjaci i Albanci".
Generalno gledajući odnos bošnjačke elite i intelektualaca - ali i običnog naroda, prema Albancima je uvijek bio prijateljski, korektan i bratski o čemu sam i u gornjem tekstu napomenuo. Pogotovu držanje tokom teških godina po Albance kada su bili pritisnuti velikosrpskom zločizmom. Od današnjih veliko - Bošnjaka Albanci nemaju šta da očekuju kada su te "patriote" zlonamjerne prema Bošnjacima i Bosni. Zar nijesmo svjedoci da su umalo legalizovali zločinačku tvorevinu Republiku Smrdsku i da još uvijek rade na tome. A odnos prema Bošnjacima koji žive van BiH, pogotovu prema nama na Kosovu je katastrofalan. Ono što sam već napomenuo, a što je važno za temu, to je da su kosovski Bošnjaci davnih '90-tih godina rekli svoje. Preko svojih istinskih prestavnika SDA i dr.Numana Balića su se jasno oglasili protiv zločinačke politike Slobodana Miloševića i jegovog režima. Zbog toga su trpjeli posljedice o kojima ne bih ovom priliko jer bi skrenuo sa teme.
Milicijska ispomoć od strane Republike BiH jedinicama tadašnjag Saveznog SUP-a, bila je u skladu sa zakonom i Ustavom te države i sasvim je opravdana. To je sticaj historijskih okolnosti i podmetanje nekakve krivice u smislu "rado Bošnjak ide u milicionere", sasvim je neopravdano i stoji u funkciji albanskog nacizma koji se ispoljava prema kosovskim Bošnjacima.
Ovo o ponašanju Bošnjaka prema Albancima u JNA nije vrijedno komentara. Samo ću napomenuti da su ti odnosi uglavnom bili fer i korektni čak i u negativnom smislu kada je jedan vojnik Bošnjak pružio podršku drugom vojniku Albancu posle izvršenja Krivičnoh djela - zločina u Paraćinu. Ako si mislio na aktivnosti oficira Bošnjaka koji su štitili jedinice od unutrašnje sabotaže i sprečavali zločine slične onom u Paraćinu, onda si krajnje zlonamjeran. I na kraju kakve veze imaju Bošnjaci i Bošnjački narod sa tim dešavanjima. Nije valjda JNA Bila Bošnjačka. Zapravo bila je, ali isto koliko i Albanska.
Ovo po stavkom 4. Kakvo ponašanje, svrstavanje? Našta to misliš? Gdje da se svrstavaju?
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SherlockHolmes
- Posts: 1259
- Joined: 27/02/2005 23:58
#85
Vidim da je nerealno ocekivati realno i balansirano sagledavanje stvari, malo i sa albanske strane, posebno zato sto zivis dole. To ti uopste ni ne zamjeram, da budem sto jasniji.
Medjutim, zaista mi nije jasno kako u istom tekstu govoris o "ustavu one zemlje" i, eto, to je u skladu sa njim i potpuno opravdano, a odnos Bosnjaka iz BiH prema vama na Kosovu nazivas katastrofalnim i pricas o izdajnicima.
I ovaj odnos je u skladu sa ovim ustavom, i time ti je valjda to pitanje razrijeseno. Iskreno ti zelim sve najbolje i sretno sa SDA.
Medjutim, zaista mi nije jasno kako u istom tekstu govoris o "ustavu one zemlje" i, eto, to je u skladu sa njim i potpuno opravdano, a odnos Bosnjaka iz BiH prema vama na Kosovu nazivas katastrofalnim i pricas o izdajnicima.
I ovaj odnos je u skladu sa ovim ustavom, i time ti je valjda to pitanje razrijeseno. Iskreno ti zelim sve najbolje i sretno sa SDA.
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Kula08
- Posts: 52
- Joined: 12/10/2006 20:11
#86
Nisam se ja upleo, ja sam samo odgovorio na četiri teze koje si postavio iz koji se očito vidi da si mislio na bivšu SFRJ i sadašnje bošnjačko vodstvo iz BiH. Odnos sadašnje bošnjačke političke elite i intelektualac iz BiH prema nama kosovskim Bošnjacima jeste katastrofalan i poražavajući. Prije svega zahvaljujući SDA i njenom vrhu.SherlockHolmes wrote:Vidim da je nerealno ocekivati realno i balansirano sagledavanje stvari, malo i sa albanske strane, posebno zato sto zivis dole. To ti uopste ni ne zamjeram, da budem sto jasniji.
Medjutim, zaista mi nije jasno kako u istom tekstu govoris o "ustavu one zemlje" i, eto, to je u skladu sa njim i potpuno opravdano, a odnos Bosnjaka iz BiH prema vama na Kosovu nazivas katastrofalnim i pricas o izdajnicima.
I ovaj odnos je u skladu sa ovim ustavom, i time ti je valjda to pitanje razrijeseno. Iskreno ti zelim sve najbolje i sretno sa SDA.
Ove želje sa SDA su suvišne. Niti sam član niti simpatizer te stranke, ovo što sam napisao, napisao sam isključivo sa pozicije jednog kosovskog Bošnjaka.
Selam i pozdrav iz Dobruše.
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Jimmy_The_Saint
- Posts: 2435
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#87
Joooj, Murfeta, ovo Slavenkino dobro praaaaavo!
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SherlockHolmes
- Posts: 1259
- Joined: 27/02/2005 23:58
#88
Ne kazem da si se upleo, i da, mislio sam na stav bh politicara i intelektualne "elite" bivse SFRJ. Posto ti onda nisu bili izdajnici vec su te spasavali od albanskih nacista, a u rezonima se nisu promjenili, ne znam kako ce ti to biti sada. Samo toliko. Ni ja se ne bih oslonio na SDA ili bilo koju stranku ili kongres da sam na tvom mjestu, ma o kojoj god se struji radilo.
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kekec
- Posts: 4854
- Joined: 18/05/2004 15:40
- Location: EU
#89
Da li sam ja upucen ili ne, kako i koliko, ti to tesko mozes ocijeniti.Downunda wrote:Iz ove zadnje izjave se, na zalost, vidi tvoja (Kekec) totalna neupucenost.kekec wrote:Kosovo na vlastitoj kozi osjetio,SherlockHolmes wrote: Moguce. Ipak nisam citao Oslobodjenje u ta doba i mahao (i Nasom Zastavom i Nasim Palicama), vec gledao kako djecu bacaju s mostova
a ti si ga iz clanaka upoznao.
Koja djeca, kada, gdje, ko ?
Kad covjek vjeruje samo jednim (u ovom slucaju srbijanskim izvorima, koji su od 1915 Albance smatrali narodom drugog reda, procitaj Vasu Cubrilovica i depesu SANU) pa ce ti sve biti jasno.
Zamisli da nekom Albancu koji je izgubio dijete,kazes:"Sta, kako, gdje?"
Zamisli da nama neko kaze (a govore nam i znamo ko):"Kakva Srebrenica, kakve Markale, kakav Stari Most - STA, KAKO, GDJE"??(zar e zvuci iritirajuce?)
Ipak su to bila djeca i tu je bilo jos, mnogo, mnogo losega koje mi koji smo mahali Jugo zastavama (ja prvi) nismo mogli ili nismo htjeli vidjeti. Bez uvrede bilo kome, ali mi smo bili neodgovorni prema samima sebi, i vjerovali u "dobrosusjedske odnose i mir"(pa vidis kako su nas "komsije pripazile" od 1992 do 1995), pa kako onda da povjerujemo da se nesto strasno desavlo Albancima li bilo kome drugom?!
Veliki pozdrav svim ljudima dobre volje bez obzira na nacionalnu, etnicku ili vjersku pripadnost.
Na izjavu da je gledao...(crveno), postavio sam pitanje (crveno), jer me interesuju detalji. Malo je cudna izjava bez konkretnih podataka. Interesuje me o cemu je rijec. Ja ne znam o tom dogadjaju nista, a volio bih znati, radi licnog informisanja iz jednostavnog razloga sto smatram da djeca moraju biti van "igre", a svaki onaj ko djeci nazao cini, mora biti najstrozije kaznjen.
Sta si htio ovim? Zar sam je nesto rekao sto lici na nesto ovakvo? I zar je bilo rijeci o nekom konkretnom slucaju, djetetu i sl. Provaljujes se.Zamisli da nekom Albancu koji je izgubio dijete,kazes:"Sta, kako, gdje?"
Zasto ovo izvlacis? Nije tema. I bitno, nije sporno jer se i vidjelo i snimilo i dokazalo.Zamisli da nama neko kaze (a govore nam i znamo ko):"Kakva Srebrenica, kakve Markale, kakav Stari Most - STA, KAKO, GDJE"??(zar e zvuci iritirajuce?)
Koja djeca? O cemu ti govoris? Daj konkretno, mani se uopstenog, ako si se vec ukljucio.Ipak su to bila djeca i tu je bilo jos, mnogo, ...
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kekec
- Posts: 4854
- Joined: 18/05/2004 15:40
- Location: EU
#90
Vjeruj mi da tvoj zivotni put ne poznajem dovoljno, tako da si malo nejasanSherlockHolmes wrote: @kekec: Izgleda ipak ne odstupas od one "Sta cit'o, ja hod'o". Evo da ti utazim znatizelju, kad si vec zapeo: Ja gled'o kako neimari smisljaju i premisljaju, hamali grade i umiru, pomalo radio, gradio, razgradjivao pa jos i vise puta hod'o i cit'o. Sta cemo sad? Da ti nesto dokazujem, nema smisla -- hod'o si. Da te uvjeravam, jos manje smisla -- ne samo da sve to vec znas, nego znas i koliko drugi znaju. Zato, sve najbolje i sa srecom.
u svojoj uopstenosti. Ne bih zelio da pogresno pretpostavim i da na osnovu
toga dajem pogresan ili neodgovarajuci zakljucak, misljenje ili kontraargument.
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Šandor
- Posts: 2383
- Joined: 13/04/2005 20:26
- Location: Negdje izmedju
#91
Jebo ti tu priču. Tako isto Hrvati pravdaju ono što učiniše u BiH. A naši debili kao dobrovoljci 1991. godine ratovali u Hrvatskoj protiv Srba.SherlockHolmes wrote:Sifra sjeti se, pa makar spomeni, posebno kada vec pises o bosnjackom merhametu:
- Odnosa bh politicara i intelektualne "elite", danas velikih Bosnjaka prema "albanskom problemu"
- Milicijskih ispomoci -- rado Bosnjak ide u milicionere
- Ponasanja i odnosa Bosnjaka u JNA prema Albancima u istoj
- Ponasanja/svrstavanja/(ne)reagiranja dijela Bosnjaka na Kosovu, i sl
Naravno, ovo ne opravdava nijedno ubistvo ili maltretiranje pa koga god bilo, ali vjerovatno ipak malo balansira tvoj rad na temu "Bosnjaci i Albanci".
Kosovo je bilo najnerazvijeniji dio SFRJ. Zadržavanje Kosova u Srbiji nije moguće. Ako bi Kosovo ostalo u Srbiji imalo bi autonomiju kakvu ima Hong Kong. Meni ova opcija zvuči dobro. Međutim, koliko god se trudim neutralno posmatrati stanje imam dojam da Srbi za to nisu sposobni. Srbi su poznati kao narod koji pravi kompromis samo kada moraju. U to su nas uvjerili i to je jedino u šta vjerujem kad je riječ o Srbima kao faktoru na ovim prostorima.NebaA wrote:Postovani, svakako da imaju pravo glasa, tri puta su raspisani lokalni izbori, sastavi Skupstina odgovaraju nacionalnom sastavu opstina, Srbija je vise od 270 miliona evra ulozila u to podrucje, infrastruktura je mnogo bolja, kandidati za predsednike su 2004. godine obilazili to podrucje, ali redovno se izbori koji nisu lokalni bojkotuju. Ne znam zasto ih bojkotuju. Sa punom odgovornoscu kazem da Albanci imaju zaista sva ustavom i zakonima zagarantovana prava. To sto oni ne zele da iskoriste neka prava koja im se jos nude i to sto bi oni najvise voleli da se otcepe od Srbije, njihov je problem, ali Srbija to nece dozvoliti.
Prema tome, kad je Alija replicirao Radovanu u parlamentu i govorio o demokratskoj tradiciji Srba slagao nas je. Srbi nemaju demokratsku tradiciju. Srpska historija obilježena je prinudnim kompromisima u bezizlaznim situacijama. Ukoliko je postojao izlaz Srbi nisu ni pomišljali na kompromis. Eventualna autonomija bila bi samo privremena. Do sticanja uslova za novo ukidanje autonomije (Jovo nanovo
).Nadam se da vam je svima jasno da nijedno stanje ne traje vječno. Svaka priča ima svoj kraj. Tako i prisustvo NATO-a na Balkanu.
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SherlockHolmes
- Posts: 1259
- Joined: 27/02/2005 23:58
#93
Ne radi se o pravdanju (niti o zamjenama teza, kao to o Hrvatskoj), vec o izvlacenju istine ispod raznoraznih tepiha. Popricaj sa kojim Albancem otvoreno, jer ih ima koji pamte npr bh pendreke. Naravno, niko to ne treba uzeti kao opravdanje za bilo sta, ali posto je Kuli ocito stalo do poboljsanja odnosa medju narodima...Šandor wrote:Jebo ti tu priču. Tako isto Hrvati pravdaju ono što učiniše u BiH. A naši debili kao dobrovoljci 1991. godine ratovali u Hrvatskoj protiv Srba.SherlockHolmes wrote:Sifra sjeti se, pa makar spomeni, posebno kada vec pises o bosnjackom merhametu:
- Odnosa bh politicara i intelektualne "elite", danas velikih Bosnjaka prema "albanskom problemu"
- Milicijskih ispomoci -- rado Bosnjak ide u milicionere
- Ponasanja i odnosa Bosnjaka u JNA prema Albancima u istoj
- Ponasanja/svrstavanja/(ne)reagiranja dijela Bosnjaka na Kosovu, i sl
Naravno, ovo ne opravdava nijedno ubistvo ili maltretiranje pa koga god bilo, ali vjerovatno ipak malo balansira tvoj rad na temu "Bosnjaci i Albanci".
Negiranje/"zaboravljanje" samo vodi u izolaciju i ostavlja siri prostor za preuvelicavanja. Zvuci poznato?-
water
- Posts: 1133
- Joined: 04/12/2004 02:46
#96
JOJ SLAVENKA, MALO TI JE OVAJ ZAKLJUCAK OPTIMISTICAN DA NE KAZEM STA DRUGO.danas wrote:'We Are All Albanians'
by SLAVENKA DRAKULIC
[from the June 7, 1999 issue of The Nation]
The other day on the BBC news I saw a young, educated and eloquent Serbian woman speaking about the life of ordinary citizens under the NATO bombing. The Serbian citizens are afraid, she said. Normal life is more and more difficult. There are power cuts, and people are forced to go several days without access to the Internet. There is also a cigarette shortage. But yes, they are trying to live normally. They go to work, they shop, and they sit in cafes. Of course, the bombing turned the Serbian citizens against NATO, not against Slobodan Milosevic. After all, "bombs are dropping from the sky."
Clearly, this young woman, like so many Serbs, does not want to understand that her country is at war. They still seem to be thinking, What has all this to do with me? I know this mechanism of denial, because I have seen it before. Serbs by and large ignored the wars in Croatia and Bosnia. It was always happening somewhere else, to somebody else, and they were not involved. It was the Serbian army, the police, the paramilitaries, but not them, the ordinary citizens. But now, when it is happening in Serbia and affecting all of them, they are still somehow surprised.
The young woman on TV used the expression "Serbian citizens," but her use of this phrase suggested that these Serbian citizens are people struggling to maintain the normality of their daily lives. By "Serbian citizens" she evidently meant only Serbs. Others--that is, Albanians--are simply never mentioned in that context. Their problems are not addressed, by her or other Serbs. In the perception of ordinary Serbs, Albanians are not included in the category of Serbian citizen and therefore are absent from the language as well.
Why? The problem is that Serbs--or anyone else, for that matter--cannot identify with the suffering of others if they are not able to see them as equals. In Yugoslav society Albanians were never visible. There was no need to construct their "otherness"--as, for example, with Jews in prewar Germany or recently with Serbs in Croatia. The Albanians were never integrated into the country's social, political and cultural life. They existed separately from us, barely visible people on the margins of our society, with their strange language that nobody understood, their tribal organization, blood feuds, different habits and dress. They were always underdogs. What was their place in the Yugoslav literature, in movies and popular culture? What famous Yugoslavs were Albanians? Because of that estrangement, not many voices were raised in protest during the past ten years, when Albanians in Kosovo lived practically under apartheid.
For the older generation, the only visible Albanians were people in white caps coming from Kosovo to their cities to cut wood in the winter. For my generation they were people selling ice cream all over Yugoslavia. They spoke our language with a funny accent and never could pronounce "lemonade" properly. They lived among us, but we chose to ignore them. If we did happen to notice them, we despised them, laughed at them, told jokes about them. I never had an Albanian friend in Zagreb. No one I knew married an Albanian. But the difference between Croats and Serbs was that Croats did not really have to deal with the Albanians; we had no Kosovo.
It was clear that they belonged to a different category from Serbs, Croats, Macedonians, Montenegrins or Slovenes. Serbs could even fight a war against Croats, but they never perceived each other in the same way they both perceive Albanians. The prejudice against Albanians can be compared to that against Jews or blacks or Gypsies in other cultures. Today every Serb will tell you that Albanians multiply like rabbits--that this is their secret weapon in the war they are waging against Serbs in Kosovo. This is not nationalism; this is more or less hidden racism.
The woman on the BBC the other day may be only an ordinary person, but there are other Serbs who should know better and who can't use the excuse of innocence so easily. They are the people in the opposition. But all one hears from them is their lament about the destruction of democracy and civil society in Serbia. The NATO bombing is to them a savage attack, a terrible act of aggression against a sovereign state--they all use the language of Milosevic's propaganda. There is "the other Serbia" they say, a better Serbia of the brave people who fought Milosevic all along.
Surely there is another Serbia that will surface once Milosevic is gone. And surely everyone can understand that opposition people are afraid now. One is tempted, however, to ask, Exactly what opposition, what civil society, what "other Serbia" are we talking about? The one that for more than a decade was not able to produce a democratic alternative to Milosevic? The one that never established contacts with Albanians from Kosovo in order to work together for the common future of both nations? If the opposition, political as well as intellectual, ever had anything in common with Milosevic, it was in its attitude toward Kosovo. Kosovo Albanians were a litmus test for the opposition all these years, and they always failed it. Now they are engulfed in self-pity.
An open letter from Vladimir Arsenijevic, a young Serbian writer of some renown, circulating on e-mail, is a striking example of this invisibility of Albanians. In his answer to a friend from Zagreb, who reproached Serbs for their lack of remorse over the situation of the Albanians, he wrote: "On account of lack of pity for the fate of Kosovo Albanians, I know (from my own experience--and I know that I have no bad feelings whatsoever directed toward anybody, least of all Albanians) that it is very hard to care about somebody else's problems if you are personally experiencing major problems of your own at the same moment. There is no favoritism in this society. Everybody is too busy surviving here to be able to feel any remorse.... Remorse is a privilege of the well-nourished, clean and civilized. And we are all Albanians here. All of us: Serbs, Montenegrins, Hungarians, Slovaks.... Poor, underfed, degraded, oppressed. And I mean ALL of us, even those who have supported Milosevic with all their heart through all these years of terrible hell."
There is something almost obscene in this sudden "visibility" of Albanians, in the Serbs' desire to achieve the status of victim through this kind of identification. Albanians remain an abstraction, an empty notion with no real substance, used solely as a means of adding visibility to Serbian suffering, thus denying the Albanian identity once more. I can see this young writer sitting at his computer (there must have been no shortage of power then) in his Belgrade apartment: He sends his e-mail letter, checks the latest war information on the Internet and goes to bed. Meanwhile, his Albanian counterpart, with whose suffering he identifies so much, sits in a tent somewhere in Albania or stands in the mud, waiting to cross the Macedonian border. His house is burned down, his computer--if he ever had one--has been taken by Serbian paramilitaries and he doesn't know where his family is.
If the young writer considers himself an Albanian, why is he not fleeing to Macedonia or Albania as well? How cynical--or young or innocent or perhaps stupid--do you have to be to say that? It is as grotesque as if the Germans, after World War II, had said, "We were all Jews." After all, had they not suffered occupation, bombardment, rationing?
The writer means to say that if the Serbs are victims, then how can they possibly have anything to do with the responsibility for this war? Or for the Milosevic regime? War goes deeper than bombardment, and the more we pretend it doesn't concern us, the more it invades us. War is destructive of the human soul. It corrodes human beings, bringing out things we didn't know about ourselves. And when he says that remorse is a privilege of civilized people, he puts himself and his nation on the level of people without pity. He is justifying the inhumanity of his people, and that is terrible.
This is what the war is doing to the young writer. But like the woman on the BBC, as well as ordinary people and opposition intellectuals, he is not able to realize that. Precisely this denial, blindness, unconscious racism and cruelty toward other human beings, this lack of remorse (but no lack of self-pity!), is what war is doing to Serbs, and it is much more devastating than NATO bombs. Living with Milosevic's regime and the war for so long takes its toll. It has changed Serbs in the past ten years, and the rest of the world is witnessing this only now, still puzzled and bewildered by it. It is hard to understand that our acquaintances, our lovers, drinking buddies, philosophers, our once dear friends, are different people. It is even harder to understand that they themselves let that change happen.
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kekec
- Posts: 4854
- Joined: 18/05/2004 15:40
- Location: EU
#98
...jer ih ima koji pamte npr iSherlockHolmes wrote: Ne radi se o pravdanju (niti o zamjenama teza, kao to o Hrvatskoj), vec o izvlacenju istine ispod raznoraznih tepiha. Popricaj sa kojim Albancem otvoreno, jer ih ima koji pamte npr bh pendreke. Naravno, niko to ne treba uzeti kao opravdanje za bilo sta, ali posto je Kuli ocito stalo do poboljsanja odnosa medju narodima...
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SherlockHolmes
- Posts: 1259
- Joined: 27/02/2005 23:58
#100
@kekec, zar to ne bi smiljeno od iredente 
Nesto se puno trzas na te bh pendreke, smijem li pitati zasto?
Nesto se puno trzas na te bh pendreke, smijem li pitati zasto?