A question about Religion and Albania

[Midas1970]

I know this is a Bosnian Forum, but there are some great talent on here, so somebody may have something to say about the following:
I'm trying to understand, how Albanians managed not to get divided along ethnic lines, based on their religion. They seem to be the only nation in the Balkans that has managed to do that. What are your comments on this? Is there something to be learned from it?
Thanks

[Bosanac sa dna kace]

For centuries they had lived almost isolated in hardly available mountains where life was so hard in order to survive for them religion was not that much importatn!
In time when the nations states start to be formed thier leaders did not have strong religious feeling, and in formation of nation state religion is an istrument which can be used in positive or negative way, religion here is not the aim!
Albaninas in the formation of nation states at the end of 19. century were dominantly muslims, so there was not sense to make national divison along religius lines!
Actually some negligible divisions had existed but by the time they dissappeared!

[Shoshana]

You probably meant "how possible they didn't divide along religious lines", not ethnic lines.

Ethnically, 95% population is Albanians (see http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... os/al.html).

Even religiously seen, 70% of population is Muslims, which is majority big enough to secure stability (nobody feels threatened). On the contrary, everybody still feels threatened by authorities, and if you add to it a fact that Albania is still the poorest country in Europe (will say people have bigger problems than religious) - there is your answer.

If there's a religious schism locally expressed, or if religious minorities live segregated (in rural areas), the answer is probably yes - but I really don't know anything about it, somebody else will have to answer on that.

[Batonus]

Albanians are only one left from Ilyric tribes that hasn't been asimilated by South Slavs.

That is the first reason, they maintain their own langaugae.

When we speak of separations of Albanian in religious ways that goes like this:

Albanians were pretty separated before communists came there.. Enver Hoxha did something that Tito did not: unite all tribes in to one nation. Gega and Toska tribes in Albania, and catolic,orthodox and muslim population. Today for Albanians first thing is Albania,then religion.

[Bosanac sa dna kace]

Albanians are only one left from Ilyric tribes that hasn't been asimilated by South Slavs.

That is the first reason, they maintain their own langaugae.

When we speak of separations of Albanian in religious ways that goes like this:

Albanians were pretty separated before communists came there.. Enver Hoxha did something that Tito did not: unite all tribes in to one nation. Gega and Toska tribes in Albania, and catolic,orthodox and muslim population. Today for Albanians first thing is Albania,then religion.

Well it is obvious that Albanians are natives of the Blaknas, but they are rather mixture of the different nationalities (Wlachinas, differenet Slavic groups, Italians, Greeks, Tracheans..) and anicent Ilyric tribes than pure descedants of one particular tribe!
It is not true that Enver Hoxa did it, Albanian enlighteners, founders of modern latin albanian alphabet from the end of the 19 century their clue was;
''Only religion of all Albanians is Albanianism!''

[boric]

''Only religion of all Albanians is Albanianism!''

ovo treba da se desi i kod Bosanaca/Bosnjaka!

[Batonus]

''Only religion of all Albanians is Albanianism!''

ovo treba da se desi i kod Bosanaca/Bosnjaka!

Bošnjaci se za razliku od Albanaca,boje Boga i tesko da ce im ikada ovozemaljske podjele biti ispred vjere u Boga...

Kod nas nikada bošnjaštvo neće biti ispred islama i to je normalan slijed... Vjera,narod,domovina...

[Midas1970]

My guesses are pretty much uninformed, but i was thinking around the same lines. It's a combination of:
1) Weak religious feelings from all sides
2) No historical animosity in between religious groups
3) Very strong nationalistic feelings that's above anything else
Thanks for the inputs, I will keep on researching.

[Batonus]

You are probably consider Bosniaks,Croats,Serbs and Montengrins same people but separetad due to relgious differencies...

There is some truth in that, but this is the thing...

Croats had it's kingdom,so as Bosniaks and Serbs...

But problem of Bosnia was that she was the only one who had its own church (separated from Orthodox with it's center in today's Istanbul, an separated from Catolic church with it's center in Rome,Vatikan)...

Rome and Constatinopolis (today's Istanbul) bought wanted control over this territories...and that resulted with expanding of bought roads of christianity...

That made Bosnia only kingdom of these three, that had more than one large spreaded church...

Through history,islam replaced Bosnian church, and Zagreb and Belgrade replaced Rome and Constantinopolis...

Due the "national rebirth" Croats with it's center in Zagreb,due the language similarities with Bosniaks-catolics guide them to became Croats, and same happends with Bosniaks-orthodox that became Serbs..

This is primarily, because Bosniaks did not develope "national rebirth" at time... therefore only followers of Bosniak nation became Bosniaks-muslims, and that is why today we consider Bosniaks=muslims, Croats=catolics, Serbs=orthodox..

[Midas1970]

Thanks Batonus.... Your explanation brings up another question to my mind:
In Bosnian language, do you guys have two seperate words for Bosniak and Bosnian ?
Does Bosniak always refer to a Muslim?
If there's in fact two seperate words for "Bosniak" and "Bosnian" in Bosnian language, do people make a concious effort to use the correct one according to the situataion? For example, if you were refering to the war, and talking about a mixed (Serb, Croat, Muslim) group of Bosnian soldiers, do you make a concious effort to say "Bosnian Soldiers" rather than "Bosniak Soldiers" ?
Thanks

[Last_one]

Thanks Batonus.... Your explanation brings up another question to my mind:
In Bosnian language, do you guys have two seperate words for Bosniak and Bosnian ?
Does Bosniak always refer to a Muslim?
If there's in fact two seperate words for "Bosniak" and "Bosnian" in Bosnian language, do people make a concious effort to use the correct one according to the situataion? For example, if you were refering to the war, and talking about a mixed (Serb, Croat, Muslim) group of Bosnian soldiers, do you make a concious effort to say "Bosnian Soldiers" rather than "Bosniak Soldiers" ?
Thanks

OK,
It is like this....
Bosnian can be Croat,Serb or Muslim....person who live in Bosnia and who is born in Bosnia;
Bosniak is someone who is actually muslim by religion!
In Bosnia we have a three nationalitys and three religions:
Orthodox=Serb
Catolik=Croat
Muslim=Bosniak
..........
But Serb,Croat and Bosniak are BOSNIANS!!!!
Clear?

[Midas1970]

Last One, this is clear...
But, this is what I'm trying to understand: If there's a ethnically mixed group of Bosnian people and if I refer to them as "Bosniaks", will I be offending the Serbs and the Croats ?

Also, what are the Bosnian words for: Bosnian and Bosniak ?

[Saraswati]

Ja mislim da si ti Midas Bosanac, i da se samo malo za*ebavas s nama. Am I right, or..?

[Eshek]

@Midas

Stick to the Albanians, don't change the subject to Bosnia.


You're CHACHKING THE MECHKA

[Saraswati]

You're CHACHKING THE MECHKA

[Last_one]

Last One, this is clear...
But, this is what I'm trying to understand: If there's a ethnically mixed group of Bosnian people and if I refer to them as "Bosniaks", will I be offending the Serbs and the Croats ?

Also, what are the Bosnian words for: Bosnian and Bosniak ?

OK,I see that I have to be more clear!
First,I am not shore that word "offend" is really correct!I don't know where you from but it is same if you asking "Would Italian offend if you calling him French and abouth of them living in Swiss?!!!"It is a same thing.Serb or Croat is not Bosniak....
BOSNIAK is actually quite new name for muslims in Balkan.A 13 years ago there were not such name and whole Muslims called them Muslims...But as you know "Muslim" is word for religion and not for nation....Because of that Muslims in Balkan ( specially in Bosnia ) their nation named as Bosniaks!
Reason for that is this one:In the time of comunism here...Time of Tito and Jugoslavia,nationality of Muslims wasn't conffes...and all muslims in that time should "find " themself as Serbs or Croats....
Any more question????

[Shoshana]

You're CHACHKING THE MECHKA

This is actually very funny

Midas, if you are not Bosnian joking here with us (as Saraswati suggested higher up), then you deserve a translation of chachking the mechka, which will say "Don't wake the sleeping bear"

Questions you are asking about Bosniaks vs Bosnians are first and foremost political and least of all ethnical. 100 people will give you a 100 different answers. The same is about the language.

A very good friend of mine, ethnically Bosnian Serb (accent on ethnically, meaning she doesn't see herself like Serb at all. She sees herself as Bosnian which she always has been) used to say: "The hell with our people. However you turn it - I am a bad guy. For Serbs I will never be good enough ('cause she feels like Bosnian) while for Croats and Bosniaks I will always bee just a bloody Serb.

This is not to be generalized though. Luckily, there's plenty of people (alot of them on this forum) that are not empoisoned with "national above anything else" and that are always going to judge you by your acts, and not by your ethnicity.

[Eshek]

@Shoshana

Pusti ga bona, shvatiće on sam šta sam mislio

[Shoshana]

@Shoshana

Pusti ga bona, shvatiće on sam šta sam mislio

Toga se i bojim

[Eshek]

@Midas

I suggest that you only discuss about Albania & Albanians on this forum, and then go to an Albanian forum and discuss Bosnia & Bosnians

Otherwise you will get to know a new meaning for the phrase "in the crossfire"

[mr__bosnjak]

Albanians decend from the Ilirans and their religion has always been a private thing while everybody has been Albanians. That´s atlest what I know. The same thing was, like Batonus explained, with Bosniacs untill Serbs and Croats started to mess with Bosnia. Maybe I don´t wright so good but you get it. Now to Batonus...

Mislim da moras razdvojit pojmove nacija i vjera. Dakle tvoj redoslijed ne stoji, jer dok je vjera licno ubjedjenje nacija ili narod je narodnosna pripadnost i ne moze se to stavljat jedno ispred drugog jer su dvije razlicite kategorije. Drzava i narod su ti opet vise povezani kao i narod i jezik. Kultura i vjera s druge strane imaju vece veze...

[Midas1970]

Last One, thanks for the info... All of the info I receive here is very much appreciated and often used. I write at various Turkish forums under various different topics, and my half-assed knowledge on Bosnia (and Balkans in general), sadly seems to be more indepth than of an average Turk's. So I pass on whatever I learn here.
Eshek, you seem to have a sense of humor, but it's too bad I don't speak Bosnian.... Shoshana, thanks for the translation and for the input...

[Grom iz vedra neba]

Last One, this is clear...
But, this is what I'm trying to understand: If there's a ethnically mixed group of Bosnian people and if I refer to them as "Bosniaks", will I be offending the Serbs and the Croats ?

Also, what are the Bosnian words for: Bosnian and Bosniak ?

OK,I see that I have to be more clear!
First,I am not shore that word "offend" is really correct!I don't know where you from but it is same if you asking "Would Italian offend if you calling him French and abouth of them living in Swiss?!!!"It is a same thing.Serb or Croat is not Bosniak....
BOSNIAK is actually quite new name for muslims in Balkan.A 13 years ago there were not such name and whole Muslims called them Muslims...

That is false. Bosniak (in Bosnian language: Bosnjak) is the term that was used during middle ages for Slav people that lived in Bosnia, after that during Ottoman period, and after that during Austro-Hungarian period. In Serb dominated Yugoslavia that term was banned.

During Tito's Yugoslavia, there were some efforts by Hamdija Pozderac, a Bosniak leader to bring that name back in 1970s, but these attempts failed due to the fact that Serb and Croat nationalists/communists didnt let Bosniaks have influence in Yugoslavia. They wanted to have domination over Bosnia, actually they didnt want to recognize Bosnia as a state, but thanks to Tito, Bosnia became federal unit in Yugoslavia.

In 1990s Bosniaks returned their historical name, but Croat and Serb nationalism was so strong that orthodox and catholic population turned to Serbia and Croatia, not Bosnia.

So, Bosniaks are now mostly muslims by religion that live in Bosnia. That is ethnicity which is primarly identified with Bosnia as their homeland, and Bosnian language as their mother tongue.

Croats in Bosnia are mostly catholics, that once called themselves Bosniaks as well as nowdays Bosnian Serbs, but as I said they turned to Croatia and Serbia because of these historical events.

Bosnian and Bosniak are actually synonyms, Bosnian is a modern term for Bosniak, but nowdays Bosnian doesnt have the same meaning because Serbs and Croats dont recognize this term as a national identification.

[Batonus]

In today's meaning Bosniak is ethnic category, Bosnian is region category,Bosnian-Herezegovinian is national category.

National category due the international definition of nation.

You see Midas this is problem. Due the "national rebirth" in Europe (Italy,Germany) same thing happend to Croats and Serbs,latter Bosniaks.

Problem was that Bosniaks and Croat didn't have what is needed for national rebirth:homeland country. They were living in Austro-Hungary.

Serbs with their own country easily suduce Bosniaks-orthodox with idea of Serb nation.

Croats didn't have their country, but Bosniaks-catolics, joined them, because they were because Austro-Hungary was catolic country, and Croats were nearest "catolics only" nation to Bosniak catolics...

For Serbs I don't know, but for Croats I am convinced that if Bosniak national rebirth happend earlier they would consider themselves as Bosniaks..

The only religous group that did had that sort of influence from outside,was muslims,and they should have been carriers of Bosniak national rebirth,but they woke up late...

[Midas1970]

Are there any Croats that define themselves as "Catholic Bosniaks" or are there any Serbs that define themselves as "Orthodox Bosniaks" ? If the answer is yes, is this a common self-definition? Thanks again....