AUTENTIČNOST vs DOGMA, (islam, Hriščanstvo, Judaizam itd.)

[Towelie]

[Zaitsev]

Towelie je Tito! Agnostik Tito!

[arzuhal]

Towelie je Tito! Agnostik Tito!

Jel već post'o agnostik? Niko mi ne javi, vazda stvari zadnji saznam...

[Diwan]

Do juče je Sveti Buharija bio nedodirljiv, uživajući oreol čednosti i nepotvorenosti, a sada imamo da neće proči još mnogo vremena da će i same hodže sa svojih mimbera pričati o korupciji unutar 'svete' zbirke.

Lično vjerujem da je i sam Kur'an bio podložan manipulacijama, ne samo u smislu nepoznavanja same materije odnosno nekompetetnosti ljudi koji su se bavili Kur'anom, varijacijama u kiraetu, hereketima, rasporedom sura, ajeta itd. već je bio podvrgnut i tekstulnim izmjenama: ubacivanjima i izbacivanjima određenih ajeta i sura. Naravno, teško je dokazati crno na bijelo tako nešto, ali postoje neke naznake koje upućuju na tako nešto.

Ako uzmemo činjenicu da su lagali na Poslanika a.s., da su mu ubili porodicu i da su vodili prikriveni i neprikriveni rat protiv njega od samog početka Objave, da su radili šta su htjeli nakon preseljenja Poslanika a.s., naivno je očekivati da su ostavili i samu Objavu netaknutom, ma kako muslimani mislili da je to nemoguće uzimajući u obzir ajet koji obećava zaštitu Objave.

Već se pisalo o tome da ajet ne govori o zaštiti Knjige, Objave, itd, već o zaštiti Zikra, ma šta to značilo, a ne znači Mushaf.

Shodno tome neki zanimljivi izvodi koji govore o mogućoj manipulaciji i sa Kur'anom:

1. First, Ubaydallah b. Ziyad, the famous and ruthless Umayyad governor of Iraq (56–67/675–686). A grandson of Abu¯ Sufyan and thus a member of the powerful ruling family, he was one of those rich traders who became powerful conquerors. After the conquest of Transoxania he held the strategic post of governor of Iraq during the caliphate of Muawiya and Yazıd I. He brutally stamped out Kharijı and Alid revolts and was responsible for the death of Imam al-Husayn b. Alı at Karbala". Anastute politician, he encouraged Marwan b. al-Hakam to stand as a candidate for the caliphate in Damascus in the face of the rival caliphate of Abdallah b. al-Zubayr in Mecca; Marwan subsequently became the first caliph of the second Umayyad period.

Ubaydallah b. Ziyad was also a man of letters and one of the “experts of Arabic” (ashab al- arabiyya). Abu l-Faraj al-Isfahanı in the Aghanı and Yaqut in the Udaba devote each a few lines to him. Ibn Abı Dawud writes that Ubaydallah b. Ziyad intervened in the establishment of the Qur"anic text, instructing his Persian secretary, Yazıd b. Hurmuz al-Farisı, to enter numerous additions: “Ubaydallah added (zada) two thousand harf (words,letters, expressions?) to the codex”, Yazıd reports. Of course, the secretary does not provide any details on the identity of the codex in question nor on the nature of the additions which he mentions. Moreover, the doubtless deliberate ambiguity of the word harf leaves room for all manner of speculation.

2.Al-Hajjaj, too, was a man of letters and one of the finest experts of the Arabic language. Al-Tabarı in his Tarıkh and al-Jahiz in his Bayan provide some examples of his flamboyant prose. Ibn Abı Dawud and Ibn Khallikan state that al-Hajjaj was deeply involved with the Qur"anic text. Occasionally contradictory accounts mention that he corrected divergent readings, arranged the order of certain chapters or verses, and improved the orthography by introducing diacritical marks and vowels.

According to al-Samhudı (d. 911/1506), an historian of the city of Medina, in an account admirably analysed by Mingana, al-Hajjaj established his own recension of the Quran, copies of which he dispatched to each of the capitals of the major provinces of the Islamic empire. These copies were to become the official text, supplanting earlier recensions which, wherever in Iraq they were found, he ordered to be destroyed. According to some accounts, al-Hajjaj was the first to have ordered the destruction of competing codices.

Other accounts report that he followed the example set by Uthman. Some sources maintain that the recensions banned by al-Hajjaj continued to circulate, and that his own codex was discarded under the Abbasids. Al-Hajjaj is mentioned in a polemical text by the Christian Arab apologist Abd al-Masıh al-Kindı, written perhaps at the beginning of the 3rd/9th century. In one of his epistles, al-Kindı (or the person who wrote using this name) states: “Then there was the intervention (i.e. in the Qur"anic text) by al-Hajjaj b. Yusuf. He seized all codices, omitting and adding a great deal. It is said that they (i.e. some of the omitted verses) were revealed concerning the Umayyads and Abbasids and included the names of some (Umayyad and Abbasid) personages. Six copies of the recension conforming to the wishes of al-Hajjaj were made and distributed: one to Egypt, another to Damascus, a third to Medina, a fourth to Mecca, a fifth to Kufa and a sixth to Basra. As for the earlier collections, he threw them into boiling oil and destroyed them, thus imitating Uthman’s action”.

3. The third figure is the caliph Abd al-Malik himself. The historiographical investigation by de Prémare, like earlier studies by Gerald Hawting on Umayyad history and Yehuda Nevo on the epigraphy of the period, demonstrate that Abd al-Malik’s reign witnessed major developments in Islamic doctrine. As concerns the definitive establishment of the Quranic text, there is first this statement by the caliph, reported in numerous sources: “I am afraid to die in the month of Ramadan because I was born in it, I was weaned in it, and in it I collected (jamatu) the Qur"an”.

Of course, the meaning of the root jm may again be said to be open to discussion; however, what we already know about the involvement of the two above-mentioned governors of Iraq in the shaping of the Qur"anic text seems to indicate that here the term does not mean “to memorize, to learn by heart” but rather “to collect, to put in order”.

Abd al-Malik may have aimed much higher and may have had larger objectives. The history of early Islam is in fact indebted to him for some major decisions:
1. The Arabization of the language of administration, which had until then been managed by the old Byzantine and/or Iranian officials in their respective languages.
2. Rendering official the status of the “the protected” (dhimm¯ı) Jews, Christians and probably also Zoroastrians, by implementing the poll tax (jizya) as a sign of their inferior status in the Islamic state and in return for the protection which this state offered them.
3. Issuing an Islamic gold coinage devoid of any figurative representation and minted exclusively with religious formulae in Arabic.

In this context, the caliph and other powerful men in his entourage must have been aware that control of belief was a fundamental aspect of power, and that this could only be achieved by controlling and codifying scripture, especially in a society with numerous dissident political- religious movements. A single Book, independent of previous sacred scriptures—in this case those of the Jews and Christians—and codified according to state dogma was the best guarantee of doctrinal and thus political stability. Thus, the initiative to produce an official Qur"anic codex, apparently begun during Uthman’s caliphate, seems to have been concluded during Abd al-Malik’s reign or slightly later.

In the intervening period, which witnessed further conquests and an increasing desire on the part of Muslim leaders clearly to distinguish their religion from Judaism and Christianity, continuous work on the redaction of the text was taking place, consisting of arrangement, rewriting, stylization, redaction, correction etc.

[Towelie]

Do juče je Sveti Buharija bio nedodirljiv, uživajući oreol čednosti i nepotvorenosti, a sada imamo da neće proči još mnogo vremena da će i same hodže sa svojih mimbera pričati o korupciji unutar 'svete' zbirke.

Lično vjerujem da je i sam Kur'an bio podložan manipulacijama, ne samo u smislu nepoznavanja same materije odnosno nekompetetnosti ljudi koji su se bavili Kur'anom, varijacijama u kiraetu, hereketima, rasporedom sura, ajeta itd. već je bio podvrgnut i tekstulnim izmjenama: ubacivanjima i izbacivanjima određenih ajeta i sura. Naravno, teško je dokazati crno na bijelo tako nešto, ali postoje neke naznake koje upućuju na tako nešto.

Ako uzmemo činjenicu da su lagali na Poslanika a.s., da su mu ubili porodicu i da su vodili prikriveni i neprikriveni rat protiv njega od samog početka Objave, da su radili šta su htjeli nakon preseljenja Poslanika a.s., naivno je očekivati da su ostavili i samu Objavu netaknutom, ma kako muslimani mislili da je to nemoguće uzimajući u obzir ajet koji obećava zaštitu Objave.

Već se pisalo o tome da ajet ne govori o zaštiti Knjige, Objave, itd, već o zaštiti Zikra, ma šta to značilo, a ne znači Mushaf.

Shodno tome neki zanimljivi izvodi koji govore o mogućoj manipulaciji i sa Kur'anom:

1. First, Ubaydallah b. Ziyad, the famous and ruthless Umayyad governor of Iraq (56–67/675–686). A grandson of Abu¯ Sufyan and thus a member of the powerful ruling family, he was one of those rich traders who became powerful conquerors. After the conquest of Transoxania he held the strategic post of governor of Iraq during the caliphate of Muawiya and Yazıd I. He brutally stamped out Kharijı and Alid revolts and was responsible for the death of Imam al-Husayn b. Alı at Karbala". Anastute politician, he encouraged Marwan b. al-Hakam to stand as a candidate for the caliphate in Damascus in the face of the rival caliphate of Abdallah b. al-Zubayr in Mecca; Marwan subsequently became the first caliph of the second Umayyad period.

Ubaydallah b. Ziyad was also a man of letters and one of the “experts of Arabic” (ashab al- arabiyya). Abu l-Faraj al-Isfahanı in the Aghanı and Yaqut in the Udaba devote each a few lines to him. Ibn Abı Dawud writes that Ubaydallah b. Ziyad intervened in the establishment of the Qur"anic text, instructing his Persian secretary, Yazıd b. Hurmuz al-Farisı, to enter numerous additions: “Ubaydallah added (zada) two thousand harf (words,letters, expressions?) to the codex”, Yazıd reports. Of course, the secretary does not provide any details on the identity of the codex in question nor on the nature of the additions which he mentions. Moreover, the doubtless deliberate ambiguity of the word harf leaves room for all manner of speculation.

2.Al-Hajjaj, too, was a man of letters and one of the finest experts of the Arabic language. Al-Tabarı in his Tarıkh and al-Jahiz in his Bayan provide some examples of his flamboyant prose. Ibn Abı Dawud and Ibn Khallikan state that al-Hajjaj was deeply involved with the Qur"anic text. Occasionally contradictory accounts mention that he corrected divergent readings, arranged the order of certain chapters or verses, and improved the orthography by introducing diacritical marks and vowels.

According to al-Samhudı (d. 911/1506), an historian of the city of Medina, in an account admirably analysed by Mingana, al-Hajjaj established his own recension of the Quran, copies of which he dispatched to each of the capitals of the major provinces of the Islamic empire. These copies were to become the official text, supplanting earlier recensions which, wherever in Iraq they were found, he ordered to be destroyed. According to some accounts, al-Hajjaj was the first to have ordered the destruction of competing codices.

Other accounts report that he followed the example set by Uthman. Some sources maintain that the recensions banned by al-Hajjaj continued to circulate, and that his own codex was discarded under the Abbasids. Al-Hajjaj is mentioned in a polemical text by the Christian Arab apologist Abd al-Masıh al-Kindı, written perhaps at the beginning of the 3rd/9th century. In one of his epistles, al-Kindı (or the person who wrote using this name) states: “Then there was the intervention (i.e. in the Qur"anic text) by al-Hajjaj b. Yusuf. He seized all codices, omitting and adding a great deal. It is said that they (i.e. some of the omitted verses) were revealed concerning the Umayyads and Abbasids and included the names of some (Umayyad and Abbasid) personages. Six copies of the recension conforming to the wishes of al-Hajjaj were made and distributed: one to Egypt, another to Damascus, a third to Medina, a fourth to Mecca, a fifth to Kufa and a sixth to Basra. As for the earlier collections, he threw them into boiling oil and destroyed them, thus imitating Uthman’s action”.

3. The third figure is the caliph Abd al-Malik himself. The historiographical investigation by de Prémare, like earlier studies by Gerald Hawting on Umayyad history and Yehuda Nevo on the epigraphy of the period, demonstrate that Abd al-Malik’s reign witnessed major developments in Islamic doctrine. As concerns the definitive establishment of the Quranic text, there is first this statement by the caliph, reported in numerous sources: “I am afraid to die in the month of Ramadan because I was born in it, I was weaned in it, and in it I collected (jamatu) the Qur"an”.

Of course, the meaning of the root jm may again be said to be open to discussion; however, what we already know about the involvement of the two above-mentioned governors of Iraq in the shaping of the Qur"anic text seems to indicate that here the term does not mean “to memorize, to learn by heart” but rather “to collect, to put in order”.

Abd al-Malik may have aimed much higher and may have had larger objectives. The history of early Islam is in fact indebted to him for some major decisions:
1. The Arabization of the language of administration, which had until then been managed by the old Byzantine and/or Iranian officials in their respective languages.
2. Rendering official the status of the “the protected” (dhimm¯ı) Jews, Christians and probably also Zoroastrians, by implementing the poll tax (jizya) as a sign of their inferior status in the Islamic state and in return for the protection which this state offered them.
3. Issuing an Islamic gold coinage devoid of any figurative representation and minted exclusively with religious formulae in Arabic.

In this context, the caliph and other powerful men in his entourage must have been aware that control of belief was a fundamental aspect of power, and that this could only be achieved by controlling and codifying scripture, especially in a society with numerous dissident political- religious movements. A single Book, independent of previous sacred scriptures—in this case those of the Jews and Christians—and codified according to state dogma was the best guarantee of doctrinal and thus political stability. Thus, the initiative to produce an official Qur"anic codex, apparently begun during Uthman’s caliphate, seems to have been concluded during Abd al-Malik’s reign or slightly later.

In the intervening period, which witnessed further conquests and an increasing desire on the part of Muslim leaders clearly to distinguish their religion from Judaism and Christianity, continuous work on the redaction of the text was taking place, consisting of arrangement, rewriting, stylization, redaction, correction etc.

Googlaj Sana manuscripts.

[zagortenej]

Dobro je neko rekao, šejtan napada zalutale ovčice [emoji6]

[zagortenej]

.

[Smrcak15]

Do juče je Sveti Buharija bio nedodirljiv, uživajući oreol čednosti i nepotvorenosti, a sada imamo da neće proči još mnogo vremena da će i same hodže sa svojih mimbera pričati o korupciji unutar 'svete' zbirke.

Lično vjerujem da je i sam Kur'an bio podložan manipulacijama, ne samo u smislu nepoznavanja same materije odnosno nekompetetnosti ljudi koji su se bavili Kur'anom, varijacijama u kiraetu, hereketima, rasporedom sura, ajeta itd. već je bio podvrgnut i tekstulnim izmjenama: ubacivanjima i izbacivanjima određenih ajeta i sura. Naravno, teško je dokazati crno na bijelo tako nešto, ali postoje neke naznake koje upućuju na tako nešto.

Ako uzmemo činjenicu da su lagali na Poslanika a.s., da su mu ubili porodicu i da su vodili prikriveni i neprikriveni rat protiv njega od samog početka Objave, da su radili šta su htjeli nakon preseljenja Poslanika a.s., naivno je očekivati da su ostavili i samu Objavu netaknutom, ma kako muslimani mislili da je to nemoguće uzimajući u obzir ajet koji obećava zaštitu Objave.

Već se pisalo o tome da ajet ne govori o zaštiti Knjige, Objave, itd, već o zaštiti Zikra, ma šta to značilo, a ne znači Mushaf.

Shodno tome neki zanimljivi izvodi koji govore o mogućoj manipulaciji i sa Kur'anom:

već je bio podvrgnut i tekstulnim izmjenama: ubacivanjima i izbacivanjima određenih ajeta i sura.

cuj to a de mi onda reci kako ovo je moguce

Nadnaravna prstenasta kompozicija Kur'ana


ako ti to nije dovljno de mi onda reci kako je ovo moguce, da samo ovakav Kur'ana kakav imamo danas je brojcano skladan, otkini jedan ajet, dodaj jedan ajet, pomjeri ajet iz jedne sure u drugu, izmijesaj ajete u istoj suri, i dobit ces brojcan nered, dok sad imamo sklad, brojevi ne lazu

analiza sta bude kad se samo jedan ajet pomjeri iz prve sure u durug suru


ako jos dublje analiziramo tabely sura i ajeta dobijemo zlatni rez preko ponavljajucih cifri i neponavljajucih


kako izmijesano, a pogledaj samo ovog sklada sve prati jedno drugo


ili analiziramo poziciju Mekke na planeti vidimo da je na liniji zlatnog reza, tako isto kad analiziramo ajet gdje se jedino ime za stari naziv Mekke Bekka spominje u Kur'anu vidjet cemo da je pozicionirano tacno na zlatnom rezu ako analiziramo izgovor svakog slova i rijeci u tom ajetu

Naravno, teško je dokazati crno na bijelo tako nešto, ali postoje neke naznake koje upućuju na tako nešto.

tebi je tesko meni nije, kao sto mozes da vidis gore, vrlo je jednostavno dokazati da Kur'an nije izmijenjen kako to ti hoces da predstavis

da ti pojednostavim

zamisli knjiga je strukturisana ovako

1,2,3,4,5,6,5,4,3,2,1

ali ti to ne ocavas, pa tvrdis da je izmijenjena, jer da je izmijenjena onda bi bio brojcani nered

u ovakvim obliku
1,3,4,2,5,5,6,4,2,1,3

znaic nema nikakvog matematickog sklada, onda bi mogli malo da otvorimo tu temu, ali imati oakav savrsen sklad i onda tvrditi da je izmijenjen je mlatarnje glupostima bez pokrica. cista nagadjanja

[Smrcak15]

a da nepricamo o predkazanjima poslanika koje mi mozemo svojim ocima da vidimo



samo u jedno hadisu potrefio 4 stvari koje mi sad gledamo svojim ocima

1. Muzicki instrumenti na glavi--->slusalice na glavi kad se slusa muzika
2. alkohol ce se nazivati drugim imenima, pogledaj sad, vodka, wiski, sampanjac, rakija, loza, jack daniels itd
3. propadanje ljudi u zemlju
4. formiranje ljudi u svinje i majmune---->upravo je zapoceo ovaj nagovjestaj, jer planiraju da uzgajaju ljudske organe na svinjama jer su nam DNK ljudima svinjama i majmunima slicna.

stvoren prvi covjek-svinja hibrid u laboratoriji prije nekoliko dana
Human-Pig Hybrid Created in the Lab—Here Are the Facts

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017 ... h-science/

ovo sa ciljem uzgajanja ljudskih organa
Human-pig embryos created by scientists in breakthrough for organ transplants
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017 ... ansplants/

[RNG_25]

Heh, kako je lako predvidjeti tok svega ovoga... Tema pokrenuta u prvoj polovini 2016., moj prvi post (na 3. stranici), između ostalog sadrži:

Ali, ne brini, ja znam da tebi neće biti problem kasnije osporiti ni validnost i vjerodostojnost Kur'ana. Na kraju, ova tvoja vjera zaista jeste nešto *novo*... bar tako meni izgleda.

Ništa, znam ja i gdje vam je kraj. Evo reći ću: relativitardizam.

[RNG_25]

Tvoje "lično uvjerenje" o vjerodostojnosti Kur'ana je u većoj koliziji sa istim, nego sve i jedan apokrifni hadis zajedno. Dok pojedini hadisi, o kojima si trubio na desetke stranica, su možda u nekoj koliziji sa dijelovima Kur'ana, tvoje mišljenje odbacuje Kur'an u sveukupnosti.

Tj., ako za tebe Kur'an u cjelini nije vjerodostojan, a k' tome ne znaš šta od te cjeline jeste (a pojma nemaš, niti možeš imati), onda je jasno da ti samo ostaje odbacivanje cijelog Kur'ana. Doći ćeš i do toga, ne brini.

A glede ovoga dolje citiranog, mogu samo reći da se previše koriste sugestivne, nejasne i višeznačne riječi. To si može priuštiti jedan Bog, odnosno jedan Poslanik kome je valjalo ponijeti teret Istine, ali ne i očigledna pristrana i lažljiva piskarala, za koje se odmah uočava da su neznalice. Pored toga što su lažovi, naravno...

Shodno tome neki zanimljivi izvodi koji govore o mogućoj manipulaciji i sa Kur'anom:

1. First, Ubaydallah b. Ziyad, the famous and ruthless Umayyad governor of Iraq (56–67/675–686). A grandson of Abu¯ Sufyan and thus a member of the powerful ruling family, he was one of those rich traders who became powerful conquerors. After the conquest of Transoxania he held the strategic post of governor of Iraq during the caliphate of Muawiya and Yazıd I. He brutally stamped out Kharijı and Alid revolts and was responsible for the death of Imam al-Husayn b. Alı at Karbala". Anastute politician, he encouraged Marwan b. al-Hakam to stand as a candidate for the caliphate in Damascus in the face of the rival caliphate of Abdallah b. al-Zubayr in Mecca; Marwan subsequently became the first caliph of the second Umayyad period.

Ubaydallah b. Ziyad was also a man of letters and one of the “experts of Arabic” (ashab al- arabiyya). Abu l-Faraj al-Isfahanı in the Aghanı and Yaqut in the Udaba devote each a few lines to him. Ibn Abı Dawud writes that Ubaydallah b. Ziyad intervened in the establishment of the Qur"anic text, instructing his Persian secretary, Yazıd b. Hurmuz al-Farisı, to enter numerous additions: “Ubaydallah added (zada) two thousand harf (words,letters, expressions?) to the codex”, Yazıd reports. Of course, the secretary does not provide any details on the identity of the codex in question nor on the nature of the additions which he mentions. Moreover, the doubtless deliberate ambiguity of the word harf leaves room for all manner of speculation.

2.Al-Hajjaj, too, was a man of letters and one of the finest experts of the Arabic language. Al-Tabarı in his Tarıkh and al-Jahiz in his Bayan provide some examples of his flamboyant prose. Ibn Abı Dawud and Ibn Khallikan state that al-Hajjaj was deeply involved with the Qur"anic text. Occasionally contradictory accounts mention that he corrected divergent readings, arranged the order of certain chapters or verses, and improved the orthography by introducing diacritical marks and vowels.

According to al-Samhudı (d. 911/1506), an historian of the city of Medina, in an account admirably analysed by Mingana, al-Hajjaj established his own recension of the Quran, copies of which he dispatched to each of the capitals of the major provinces of the Islamic empire. These copies were to become the official text, supplanting earlier recensions which, wherever in Iraq they were found, he ordered to be destroyed. According to some accounts, al-Hajjaj was the first to have ordered the destruction of competing codices.

Other accounts report that he followed the example set by Uthman. Some sources maintain that the recensions banned by al-Hajjaj continued to circulate, and that his own codex was discarded under the Abbasids. Al-Hajjaj is mentioned in a polemical text by the Christian Arab apologist Abd al-Masıh al-Kindı, written perhaps at the beginning of the 3rd/9th century. In one of his epistles, al-Kindı (or the person who wrote using this name) states: “Then there was the intervention (i.e. in the Qur"anic text) by al-Hajjaj b. Yusuf. He seized all codices, omitting and adding a great deal. It is said that they (i.e. some of the omitted verses) were revealed concerning the Umayyads and Abbasids and included the names of some (Umayyad and Abbasid) personages. Six copies of the recension conforming to the wishes of al-Hajjaj were made and distributed: one to Egypt, another to Damascus, a third to Medina, a fourth to Mecca, a fifth to Kufa and a sixth to Basra. As for the earlier collections, he threw them into boiling oil and destroyed them, thus imitating Uthman’s action”.

3. The third figure is the caliph Abd al-Malik himself. The historiographical investigation by de Prémare, like earlier studies by Gerald Hawting on Umayyad history and Yehuda Nevo on the epigraphy of the period, demonstrate that Abd al-Malik’s reign witnessed major developments in Islamic doctrine. As concerns the definitive establishment of the Quranic text, there is first this statement by the caliph, reported in numerous sources: “I am afraid to die in the month of Ramadan because I was born in it, I was weaned in it, and in it I collected (jamatu) the Qur"an”.

Of course, the meaning of the root jm may again be said to be open to discussion; however, what we already know about the involvement of the two above-mentioned governors of Iraq in the shaping of the Qur"anic text seems to indicate that here the term does not mean “to memorize, to learn by heart” but rather “to collect, to put in order”.

Abd al-Malik may have aimed much higher and may have had larger objectives. The history of early Islam is in fact indebted to him for some major decisions:
1. The Arabization of the language of administration, which had until then been managed by the old Byzantine and/or Iranian officials in their respective languages.
2. Rendering official the status of the “the protected” (dhimm¯ı) Jews, Christians and probably also Zoroastrians, by implementing the poll tax (jizya) as a sign of their inferior status in the Islamic state and in return for the protection which this state offered them.
3. Issuing an Islamic gold coinage devoid of any figurative representation and minted exclusively with religious formulae in Arabic.

In this context, the caliph and other powerful men in his entourage must have been aware that control of belief was a fundamental aspect of power, and that this could only be achieved by controlling and codifying scripture, especially in a society with numerous dissident political- religious movements. A single Book, independent of previous sacred scriptures—in this case those of the Jews and Christians—and codified according to state dogma was the best guarantee of doctrinal and thus political stability. Thus, the initiative to produce an official Qur"anic codex, apparently begun during Uthman’s caliphate, seems to have been concluded during Abd al-Malik’s reign or slightly later.

In the intervening period, which witnessed further conquests and an increasing desire on the part of Muslim leaders clearly to distinguish their religion from Judaism and Christianity, continuous work on the redaction of the text was taking place, consisting of arrangement, rewriting, stylization, redaction, correction etc.

[zijancer]

ko zna kako je to s knjigama, ali u prirodi je najzasticenije ono sto niko ne zeli

[aurora313]

Do juče je Sveti Buharija bio nedodirljiv, uživajući oreol čednosti i nepotvorenosti, a sada imamo da neće proči još mnogo vremena da će i same hodže sa svojih mimbera pričati o korupciji unutar 'svete' zbirke.

Lično vjerujem da je i sam Kur'an bio podložan manipulacijama, ne samo u smislu nepoznavanja same materije odnosno nekompetetnosti ljudi koji su se bavili Kur'anom, varijacijama u kiraetu, hereketima, rasporedom sura, ajeta itd. već je bio podvrgnut i tekstulnim izmjenama: ubacivanjima i izbacivanjima određenih ajeta i sura. Naravno, teško je dokazati crno na bijelo tako nešto, ali postoje neke naznake koje upućuju na tako nešto.

Ne znam što treba sumnjati u izmjene, dopune, ili 'čišćenje' pojedinih riječi i pojmova. Ne postoji original Kurana kao što ne postoji ni original Biblije. Oko Biblije znam mnogo više, i jasno mi je da se paralela može povući: čim se svetog materijala domogne neko visoko pozicionirani, nađe se u potrebi i iskušenju da to 'prilagodi'. Društva se mijenjaju, rastu i prerastaju, pa se zato koješta prilagođava novim uslovima i potrebama. Tako je Konstantin prilagodio ili tačnije kreirao Bibliju do te mjere, da joj dijelove oni koji su ih prethodno znali, ne bi prepoznali. Nemam vlastitih dokaza za to jer nemamo pisane tragove, ali mnogi iskusniji i stručniji znaju o čemu se radi. U svakom slučaju, ima više dokaza za manipulisanje nego bar i jedan dokaz da je u svetim knjigama sve upisano putem neke više sile.

A bolji primjer od oba Buharija oko hadisa po pitanju vjerodostojnosti istih, kao i njihovih vlastitih izbora 'stvarnih' hadisa 200 i više godina nakon smrti Muhameda, dalje ne treba. To je toliko infantilno pa i komično da ne vrijedi komentara.

[Smrcak15]

Ne znam što treba sumnjati u izmjene, dopune, ili 'čišćenje' pojedinih riječi i pojmova. Ne postoji original Kurana kao što ne postoji ni original Biblije. Oko Biblije znam mnogo više, i jasno mi je da se paralela može povući: čim se svetog materijala domogne neko visoko pozicionirani, nađe se u potrebi i iskušenju da to 'prilagodi'. Društva se mijenjaju, rastu i prerastaju, pa se zato koješta prilagođava novim uslovima i potrebama. Tako je Konstantin prilagodio ili tačnije kreirao Bibliju do te mjere, da joj dijelove oni koji su ih prethodno znali, ne bi prepoznali. Nemam vlastitih dokaza za to jer nemamo pisane tragove, ali mnogi iskusniji i stručniji znaju o čemu se radi. U svakom slučaju, ima više dokaza za manipulisanje nego bar i jedan dokaz da je u svetim knjigama sve upisano putem neke više sile.

A bolji primjer od oba Buharija oko hadisa po pitanju vjerodostojnosti istih, kao i njihovih vlastitih izbora 'stvarnih' hadisa 200 i više godina nakon smrti Muhameda, dalje ne treba. To je toliko infantilno pa i komično da ne vrijedi komentara.

Ne postoji original Kurana kao što ne postoji ni original Biblije.

ovaj Kur'an sto imamo u kucama na arapskom je orginalni Kur'an

cak cijeli Kur'an od vremena poslanika, tacnije Halife Osmana , jednog od ashaba/prijatelja poslanika Muhammeda


Pricati da nemamo orginalni Kur'an je cista laz, cisto nagadjanje sa tvoje strane i to bez pokrica.

[Diwan]

Do juče je Sveti Buharija bio nedodirljiv, uživajući oreol čednosti i nepotvorenosti, a sada imamo da neće proči još mnogo vremena da će i same hodže sa svojih mimbera pričati o korupciji unutar 'svete' zbirke.

Lično vjerujem da je i sam Kur'an bio podložan manipulacijama, ne samo u smislu nepoznavanja same materije odnosno nekompetetnosti ljudi koji su se bavili Kur'anom, varijacijama u kiraetu, hereketima, rasporedom sura, ajeta itd. već je bio podvrgnut i tekstulnim izmjenama: ubacivanjima i izbacivanjima određenih ajeta i sura. Naravno, teško je dokazati crno na bijelo tako nešto, ali postoje neke naznake koje upućuju na tako nešto.

Ne znam što treba sumnjati u izmjene, dopune, ili 'čišćenje' pojedinih riječi i pojmova. Ne postoji original Kurana kao što ne postoji ni original Biblije. Oko Biblije znam mnogo više, i jasno mi je da se paralela može povući: čim se svetog materijala domogne neko visoko pozicionirani, nađe se u potrebi i iskušenju da to 'prilagodi'. Društva se mijenjaju, rastu i prerastaju, pa se zato koješta prilagođava novim uslovima i potrebama. Tako je Konstantin prilagodio ili tačnije kreirao Bibliju do te mjere, da joj dijelove oni koji su ih prethodno znali, ne bi prepoznali. Nemam vlastitih dokaza za to jer nemamo pisane tragove, ali mnogi iskusniji i stručniji znaju o čemu se radi. U svakom slučaju, ima više dokaza za manipulisanje nego bar i jedan dokaz da je u svetim knjigama sve upisano putem neke više sile.

A bolji primjer od oba Buharija oko hadisa po pitanju vjerodostojnosti istih, kao i njihovih vlastitih izbora 'stvarnih' hadisa 200 i više godina nakon smrti Muhameda, dalje ne treba. To je toliko infantilno pa i komično da ne vrijedi komentara.

Zavisi sve oko polazišta onoga koji piše - ne znam koje je tvoje polazište, nijet, pozadina, tvoja 'ideologija', ali neke odluke da se u nešto vjeruje ili ne vjeruje ne moraju biti plod želje za znanjem ili istinom već prožete i obojene dokazivanjem vlastitih uvjerenja koja isto tako mogu biti ideologija ili 'vjera'.

[Zaitsev]

Towelie je Tito! Agnostik Tito!

Jel već post'o agnostik? Niko mi ne javi, vazda stvari zadnji saznam...

Sve ukazuje na to da jeste moj arzo

[aurora313]

ovaj Kur'an sto imamo u kucama na arapskom je orginalni Kur'an...

Važno je šta svaki od vjernika misli da zna. Moje mere bit', al' ne mora.

[HardcoreMX]

Ovaj Kur'an što svaki čovjek izgovori je original.

[Towelie]

What was the klix age of Noah




Based on the findings from modern methods that can evaluate the age of human remains with a fair degree of precision (e.g. through radiocarbon klix of bones, mummies, fossils etc), and also considering the greater fragility of earlier man, now it is an established fact that the average life-expectancy of our human ancestors was definitely LESS, and never more, than average ours.

Thus, whether any member of human species during the last 10,000 years could have survived several hundred years, is out of the question!

Could Noah, or any of those great patriarchs, have lived several hundred years?

THE QURAN DOESN’T CONFIRM NOAH’S klix AGE

The Quran re-narrates Noah’s story as one of “the PARABLES, the meaning of which can be grasped by none except the knowledgeable. 29:43” (cf. 29:41, 11:24-25)”. See Understanding the Flood Parable of Noah

“Parable is a short story that uses familiar events to illustrate a moral or religious lesson.”

In this parabolic story, Noah’s klix age is irrelevant.

There is a general misconception among traditional Muslims that, by re-narrating various biblical stories, the Quran confirms them literally and so no deeper understanding of these accounts is allowed or necessary.

To our observation, however, this is not the case. As the Quran attaches its own moral imports and intents to these ‘stories of the ancients’, they function in the Quran purely as parables rather than factsheets of literal or historical accounts (24:34-35, 25:33, 39:27, 12:111; cf. 12:7, 12:111, 15:75, 23:30, 54:15). Thus they actually belong to the veiled corpus of the Quran, which comprises literary devices like symbols, idioms, metaphors, allegories, stories, parables, analogies etc whereby the scripture presents deeper, complex and abstract ideas.

In other words, as these Quranic re-narrations are idiosyncratic in both contents and intents, they do not confirm any literal understanding of their Biblical parallels.

We will take the AGE OF NOAH as an example.

First, why should we discuss this at all? Is the klix age of Noah really important, or even relevant to us? If not, then what purpose would it serve in a handbook of divine enlightenment?

In our opinion, it is inconceivable that the Quran, with its sole purpose to guide, would be concerned about any klix age or any historical biography of a character of the remote past.

And this should explain why the Quranic wisdom gently BYPASSES (cf. 5:15) this specific focus of this Genesis myth on Noah’s age as immaterial, while attaching to it a very different dimension:

And certainly We sent Noah to his people, and he remained among them a thousand YEARS except fifty years. 29:14

Please observe how this Quranic description significantly differs from its Biblical counterpart, “Noah LIVED a total of 950 years, and then he died. Genesis ix, 29”.

Here one may ask: If the Quran really wanted to confirm a literal understanding of the Biblical narration of Noah’s age, why doesn’t it directly repeat the exact number “nine hundred and fifty” as mentioned there, but rather uses this brainstorming expression “a thousand less fifty” instead?

Again, if the Quran doesn’t somehow intend to differ from this Biblical account of Noah’s longevity (“Noah lived a total …”), why doesn’t it simply repeat it ad verbum, but rather rephrases it in such an oblique way (“he remained with them …”) instead? Why ‘remained’, instead of ‘lived’?

Also, why does the phrase “a thousand YEARS less fifty years” use two contrasting terms, ‘YEARS’ (sana) and ‘years’ (‘aam), if not with a purpose to highlight some key differences between their connotations?

Why does the Quran need to use an expression so distinct from the Biblical, after all?

THE QURAN DOESN’T EVEN MENTION NOAH’S klix AGE

Let us read the statement once again:

And certainly We sent Noah to his people, and he remained among them a thousand YEARS except fifty years. 29:14

On a closer study of the above, and the highlighted words in particular, we get the following findings:

Here we have two different time units: ‘YEARS’ (sana) and ‘years’ (‘aam)

Though not noticeable in English translations, there are infact two different time units being used here: ‘YEARS’ (sana) and ‘years’ (‘aam).

Often translated as ‘years’, the word sana in Arabic vaguely refers to season, crop or year as a non-specific period of time. Hence it doesn’t necessarily mean a year (365 days), just as yawm does not necessarily mean a day. In contrast, translated as ‘years’, the word ‘aam usually indicates a specific calendar year.

Moreover, while sana generally indicates a period of hard work and hardship (12:47-48; 7:130), ‘aam usually indicates a year of ease and blessing (2:259, 12:49).

While there is thus some difference in sana and ‘aam, the Quran uses these two analogous words in 29:14, in one sentence, obviously to highlight some key difference between their connotations.

‘Thousand YEARS’ doesn’t necessarily mean ‘thousand calendar years’

Usually translated as ‘thousand’, the word ‘alf’ in Arabic doesn’t invariably or necessarily mean ‘thousand’ in the literal sense. As ‘alf’ often stands for a certain well-rounded number or a large number, it may also simply mean ‘many’ or ‘too many’ (2:96; 8:9, 22:47, 32:5, 97:3).

With this, if we consider that ‘sana’ vaguely refers to season, crop or year, often accompanied by hardship, we can understand ‘alfa sanat’ (‘thousand YEARS’) as a very long, non-specific period of time, of long waits and difficulties, which doesn’t precisely or necessarily mean ‘thousand calendar years’.

“A thousand sana except fifty ‘aam” doesn’t mean 950 years

As noted above, the Quran uses these two contrasting time units to highlight some key difference between their connotations. In order to better understand the verse, we need to appreciate the fact that the Quran does this deliberately, with some real purpose.

Thus the phrase “A thousand sana (years/ months/ periods/ time-cycles) less fifty ‘aam (years)” contains two dialectical categories – two different types/natures/lengths of time – where one is more specific than the other.

Now, we cannot do simple arithmetic between two different dialectical categories. We cannot from thousand sana just numerically deduct fifty ‘aam and calculate the instant result 950. If we could, then in what unit would we express our resultant number – in sana or ‘aam?

Thus it is impossible to derive from the Quran any mention of Noah’s klix age.

THE QURAN HERE CONVEYS A MESSAGE

Then, let us read the statement in its context:

And certainly We sent Noah to his people, and he remained among them a thousand YEARS except fifty years; then the deluge overtook them while they were transgressing.

So We saved him and the people of the Ark, and we set it up as a sign for the worlds. …

And these are the PARABLES We propound unto man, but none grasps their meaning except the knowledgeable. 29:14-15, 43

Since this story is a parable, we need to read it figuratively through the symbols to get its deeper meaning and moral.

Here Noah is an archetype who personifies the human longing for divine illumination that guides the soul throughout this challenging journey of life (23:29). He constructs a moral system, ‘a simple craft made of planks and nails’ (54:13), which is ‘built gradually, under divine inspiration (11:37-38, 23:27). …

Now, as Muhammad parallels Noah, his Quran parallels the Ark. Also, like Noah, the age of his prophetic dispensation among the people spans many centuries (‘thousand years’). Out of it, the first few decades (‘fifty years’) were the years of spiritual progress, which were followed by many centuries (‘thousand years’) of spiritual degeneration.

Throughout the ages, however, the messenger’s true followers remain spiritually alive, preserved in the Ark of his teachings as incorporated in the Quran (11:23-25, 29:15).

While others become spiritually dead (11:21-25), drowned by the overwhelming deluge of mental shallowness and worldly desires (11:15-25, 29:14, 71:11-12, 71:21-25).

FINAL THOUGHTS

The re-narrated ‘stories of the ancients’ function in the Quran purely as parables, rather than factsheets of literal or historical accounts. As they thus belong to the veiled corpus of the Quran, they do not confirm any literal understanding of their Biblical parallels.

The same applies to the Parable of Noah, where Noah’s klix age is irrelevant. Here we have carefully observed how the Quranic wisdom gently bypasses this specific focus of this Genesis myth on Noah’s age, and how it attaches to the narration a very different dimension (5:15, 29:14-15, 29:43).

The Quran not only doesn’t confirm Noah’s klix age, it doesn’t even mention it.

[Towelie]

Rumi and the Quranic concept of evolution




According to the Quran, far from arriving on Earth as a ready-made product, man has evolved through infinite stages involving the whole Universe.

Please read this beautiful passage:

What is the matter with you that you do not hope greatness in God, 71:13

When He has created you in stages? 71:14

See you not how God has created the seven Heavens in stages/layers? 71:15

And has set up in them the Moon as a light, and set up the Sun a lamp? 71:16

And God has made you grow from the Earth as a growth /plant. 71:17

Then He returns you to it, and He brings you forth a bringing forth. 71:18

Here the general reference to man’s evolution (71:14) is elaborated by specific references to man’s cosmic and galactic evolution (71:15), man’s solar evolution (71:16) and then man’s terrestrial and biological evolution (71:17), followed by man’s future evolution (71:18).

Note how the description unfolds in steps in an exact evolutionary sequence and how it interestingly accords with modern cosmology.

So, man has evolved in a very lengthy process of gradual changes in the great uterus of the Universe’s vast space-time – going through many cosmic, inorganic, organic and biological stages – up to the point where ‘man the animal’ eventually became self-conscious ‘Homo sapiens’.

While outlining the various stages of man’s evolution, here the Quran calls us to seriously reflect on evolution as a manifestation of divine power and intelligent design (‘What is the matter with you that you do not hope greatness in God, …’).

This Quranic call to human reason to “expect greatness in God, who has created man in stages”, gets resonance in the greatest sufi poet of Islam, Jalal al-Din Rumi:

I died as mineral and became a plant,
I died as plant and rose to animal,
I died as animal and I was man.
Why should I fear? When was I less by dying?

And this is how evolution is mystically perceived in his Masnavi, which is often described as ‘the Quran in Persian’:

Low in the Earth

I lived in realms of ore and stone:

And then I smiled in many tinted flowers;

Then roaming with the wild and wandering hours,

O’er Earth and air and ocean’s zone,

In a new birth,

I dived and flew,

And crept and ran,

And all the secrets of my essence drew

Within a form that brought them all to view

And Lo, a Man!

And then my goal,

Beyond the clouds, beyond the sky,

In realms where none may change or die

In angel form; and then away

Beyond the bounds of night and day,

And Life and Death, unseen or seen,

Where all that is hath ever been,

As One and Whole.

– Rumi

[Diwan]

Isti scenario , gotovo identičan, važi i za odnos Kurejšija spram Poslanika a.s. i za sve ostalo što se spominje u videu. Uleme/rabini su preuzeli vjeru i skovali je spram njih samih i interesa ljudi oko njih.

Kurejšije nisu nikada prihvatili Poslanika a.s., ni Objavu, a vjerujem da i oni što su se izjašnjavali kao 'muslimani' da su koristili ono za šta šije optužuju - tukju, dakle pretvaranje, a u osnovi su čekali pravi razvoj događaja za njih da ponovno zauzmu vlast i položaju, što se i desilo sa preseljenjem Poslanika a.s.

[dadinjo33]

What was the klix age of Noah


...
“A thousand sana except fifty ‘aam” doesn’t mean 950 years
...
FINAL THOUGHTS

The re-narrated ‘stories of the ancients’ function in the Quran purely as parables, rather than factsheets of literal or historical accounts. As they thus belong to the veiled corpus of the Quran, they do not confirm any literal understanding of their Biblical parallels.

The same applies to the Parable of Noah, where Noah’s klix age is irrelevant. Here we have carefully observed how the Quranic wisdom gently bypasses this specific focus of this Genesis myth on Noah’s age, and how it attaches to the narration a very different dimension (5:15, 29:14-15, 29:43).

The Quran not only doesn’t confirm Noah’s klix age, it doesn’t even mention it.

Ko spozna ko su khummusuun razumjeće razliku i sličnost između sunneta i sineta, a samo oni na lađi znaju značenje odnosa 1:19.

[hajib]

pa napisite sta je netacno.sve sto sam postavljao je iz kur an a.zar sumnjate u alahovu knjigu?samo mlatite praznu slamu.....ovamo vjernici i vjernice a radite ruzna djela...npr. lizanje p**** i pusenje k****////to muslimani rade zar ne?

[arzuhal]

pa napisite sta je netacno.sve sto sam postavljao je iz kur an a.zar sumnjate u alahovu knjigu?samo mlatite praznu slamu.....ovamo vjernici i vjernice a radite ruzna djela...npr. lizanje p**** i pusenje k****////to muslimani rade zar ne?

Oralni seks kojeg spominješ je dozvoljen (halal) u islamu, ukoliko se njih oboje (muškarac i žena u zakonitom braku) slože da ga upražnjavaju, a daleko bilo da je to nekakvo ružno djelo, naprotiv. Ružna djela su, npr. kada neko dođe, ničim izazvan, po se sav upregne da što hinjskije vrijeđa nečiju vjeru....To je ružno djelo, iako najviše djeluje kao djelo nezrele, neiživljene, iskompleksirane i duboko isfrustrirane osobe koja ne zna šta bi od sebe pa, eto, to radi...


Dakle netačno je to što tvrdiš...

[Smrcak15]

pa napisite sta je netacno.sve sto sam postavljao je iz kur an a.zar sumnjate u alahovu knjigu?samo mlatite praznu slamu.....ovamo vjernici i vjernice a radite ruzna djela...npr. lizanje p**** i pusenje k****////to muslimani rade zar ne?

ti si cojece prolupao strasno i jezovito, hoces da predstavis sexualne radnje izedju muza i supruge kao nesto ruzno