Izrael je opet pocinio zlocin!

[hik--meta]

naje..li su i jedni i drugi ako tenkovi udju u gazu, a sve su prilike da ce se to desiti, mozda vec sutra, jer je danas sveti dan i za jedne i za druge.

[BarbaDue]

pogledajte film na HRT1...malo istine o palestincima i Jeruzalemu

Pogledao, odličan film, realan i nepristrasan koliko može biti. Ali, što je najvažnije šalje bitnu poruku svima nama bez obzira koje nacije vjere ili nevjere bili. Čast i obraz iznad svega.

da u pravu si, ali ipak treba napomenuti plemenitost velicanstvenog Saladina kada je pustio sve krscane da sigurno izađu iz grada, bez obzira na to sto su prije toga krscani pokorivsi Jeruzalem
sve zivo poklali...
za mene to ipak pokazuje pravo lice islama.

[RIZVA]

[quote="oldschool"][quote="bogoljub"]Stvarno trebali bi nekako dojaviti ovim Palestincima u Gazzi da ce djaba ginuti, kaze OLDSCHOOL!
Znal neko kako im dojaviti![/quote

Moćeš ti biti ironičan, sarkastičan, ali u Palestinu ne moće doći oružje koje će moći da uništi oklopnjake, kada nisu to mogli shavtiti ranije, neće ni sada. Palestinci ništa ne psotižu, naprotiv sve manje teritorije imaju, kada ste takvi što ne idete pa se tamo borite vi, pušku u ruke ili bombu ručne izrade pa na najsavremenije tenkove idi, oni su od sviju ostavljeni, njihove fanatizmom zaluđene vođe ih vode u propast[/quo

Naravno da Palestincima nije nimalo lako,u tom getu su okruzeni sa svih strana,sve "pipe" zavrnute,ne sumnjam da nemaju kakav bacac rucne izrade,makar iole ako ista barem da malo onesposobe oklopnjak,al kako otici tamo i pomoci im...mozda da se predstavim da sam kakav novinar pa da uletim ,

[omar little]

a, promijenis li ti nekad pjesmu i jesi li u stanju voditi iole suvisao dijalog bez paranoidnih teorija zavjere i propagiranja fasistickih ideja? ti kao gledas na svijet kroz raznolike spektre i perspektive pa imas pravo svima na forumu suditi?!?!? ti si, covjece, totalno delusional.

Jel ovo teorija zavjere??????????? Hoce li mi ko objasniti zbog cega FBI ne trazi Bin Ladena zbog 9.11 ???????????

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm

pretpostavicu da se meni obracas, kvotiranje ti bas ne ide od ruke.

kakve veze ovo ima sa Palestinom i Izraelom?!?!?

Opet se izbjegava odgovor.Poceo si sa pricama o terijama zavjere.Navodni napad "muslimanski terorista" 9.11 je samo izgovor za skoro sve ratove sto se danas vode na bliskom istoku.Ubijanje palestinaca tj. svih muslimana se samo gleda kao borba protiv terorizma samo na osnovu tog cina i vjeruj mi da tako razmislja svaki prosjecni amerikanac.Uostalom amerika je ta koja vlada svijetom a izrael taj koji vlada amerikom...

ja opet pitam kakve veze ovo ima sa trenutnim ratnim dogadjanjima u Gazi?

9.11. je izgovor za rat izmedju Palestine i Izraela?!?!?!?!?

ne, ne vjerujem ti da tako razmislja svaki prosjecni amerikanac. nisam upoznala svakog prosjecnog ili neprosjecnog amerikanca (ti jesi?!?!?) ali ovi koje sam upoznala imaju raznolika misljenja, stavove i ideoloske odrednice jedanko kao i mi ovdje na forumu ili u BiH. i nisam ljubitelj simplificiranja kompleksnih stvari kao sto to ti radis.

[Chmoljo]

pogledajte film na HRT1...malo istine o palestincima i Jeruzalemu

Pogledao, odličan film, realan i nepristrasan koliko može biti. Ali, što je najvažnije šalje bitnu poruku svima nama bez obzira koje nacije vjere ili nevjere bili. Čast i obraz iznad svega.

da u pravu si, ali ipak treba napomenuti plemenitost velicanstvenog Saladina kada je pustio sve krscane da sigurno izađu iz grada, bez obzira na to sto su prije toga krscani pokorivsi Jeruzalem
sve zivo poklali...
za mene to ipak pokazuje pravo lice islama.

ali i njega kao velikog pojedinca... umro bez prebijene pare... al' da ne zachatavamo

[oldschool]

Stvarno trebali bi nekako dojaviti ovim Palestincima u Gazzi da ce djaba ginuti, kaze OLDSCHOOL!
Znal neko kako im dojaviti![/quote

Moćeš ti biti ironičan, sarkastičan, ali u Palestinu ne moće doći oružje koje će moći da uništi oklopnjake, kada nisu to mogli shavtiti ranije, neće ni sada. Palestinci ništa ne psotižu, naprotiv sve manje teritorije imaju, kada ste takvi što ne idete pa se tamo borite vi, pušku u ruke ili bombu ručne izrade pa na najsavremenije tenkove idi, oni su od sviju ostavljeni, njihove fanatizmom zaluđene vođe ih vode u propast

Pa Palestinci su i prije rpg unistavali tenkove , A sada imaju puno bolju opremu i izdaleka ih modju gadzat, to im poruci ako ih vidis!

ja njima ne mou pomoći nikako,mogu se solidarisati sa njihovom sudbinom, ali ti bih im došao kao odličan moralista, slao bih ljude u smrt najnoramalnije, zar ne vidiš da ništa ne postiću, sve su bjedniji, siromašniji, sve manje zemlje imaju, lagano je srati iz fotelje i govoriti izađite sa kamenjem, puškicama i bombama protiv tenkova i ostalih stvari, Izrael ima špijunske avione, kada bude išla kopnena akcija imat će i podrćku avijacije, kaoo vam nije jasno da se svijetu, onima koj vladaju jebe za tim ljudima, kao što im se i za nama jebalo, bio sam ovde i preživio svašta, ostao da živim, a ne sjećam se da nam je neko od moćnika pomagao, slali štrumfove koji bi ponekad glavnom cestom bacali po jednu, dvije konzerve i mi se bacali sa njima, a njihovi transpotrteri idu na ljude koji trče za konzervama, jedino su imali kosriti oni koji su za štrumfove radili

[KemooSA]

ja opet pitam kakve veze ovo ima sa trenutnim ratnim dogadjanjima u Gazi?

9.11. je izgovor za rat izmedju Palestine i Izraela?!?!?!?!?

ne, ne vjerujem ti da tako razmislja svaki prosjecni amerikanac. nisam upoznala svakog prosjecnog ili neprosjecnog amerikanca (ti jesi?!?!?) ali ovi koje sam upoznala imaju raznolika misljenja, stavove i ideoloske odrednice jedanko kao i mi ovdje na forumu ili u BiH. i nisam ljubitelj simplificiranja kompleksnih stvari kao sto to ti radis.

Vjeruj mi da je to sve povezano,ovo sadasnje stanje je samo igra da se Iran uvuce u rat jer cionisti nikad nece dozvoliti da Iran postane nuklearna sila!

[ld]

ISRAEL has thousands of troops massed for a ground offensive on Gaza that would aim to deal a hammer blow to Hamas and re-establish Israel's military credentials with its other foes, experts say.

The number of troops and tanks along the 60km border is a military secret but Israeli leaders say the force is ready and local media say the assault is imminent.

Israel launched air strikes and a naval bombardment one week ago in response to weeks of militant rocket fire from Hamas-run Gaza.

Israeli warplanes today hit Gaza targets including a mosque and a house where three young brothers were killed.

A missile from one of 30 new Israeli raids hit a house and killed the boys, aged from seven to 10, emergency services said.

At least 430 Palestinians have been killed - including top Hamas leader Nizar Rayan - and 2250 people wounded in the raids, according to Gaza officials. About 300 militant rockets have killed four people and wounded dozens in Israel.


After Israel's 2006 war in Lebanon, widely condemned as a fiasco, this campaign has been scrupulously prepared and few experts believe Hamas can halt the waiting army.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has called it "iron fist" treatment.

Some analysts say Israel expects dozens of its soldiers to be killed in any ground offensive, but the government insists it wants to stop the rockets.

"Hamas must understand that if it launches rockets in the future it will have to pay a prohibitive price," said Shabtai Shavit, a former head of the Mossad foreign intelligence service and now an adviser to the Israeli National Security Council.

"Israel does not intend to reconquer the Gaza Strip," Mr Shavit said. Any ground campaign "would mean going in and inflicting additional damage and cost to Hamas."

Asked whether this means killing more Hamas leaders or just destroying infrastructure, he said: "Everything."

He predicted a war could last weeks with the ground offensive quickly followed by a phased withdrawal if a "political agreement" with Hamas could be concluded.

Uzi Dayan, a former deputy chief of Israel's general staff and national security adviser to prime ministers Ehud Barak and Ariel Sharon, said the army must control areas of Gaza from which rockets are being launched and "put more pressure on the Hamas leadership and Hamas activists".

He said the Israeli army would need to take control of key areas in Gaza, right up to the Egyptian border where a system of tunnels are used to smuggle weapons and other supplies into the territory.

Mr Dayan said that detaining Hamas leaders and activists will encourage ceasefire negotiations.

"You need some cards, it is not enough to just say 'please stop the bombing'."

Experts also said Israel wants to send a message to Iran, the Hezbollah militia in Lebanon and other enemies that after the disastrous 2006 war in Lebanon, the Middle East's most powerful army is to be feared again.

The main lesson, according to Mr Shavit, Mr Dayan and several Israeli officers, is that an invading force cannot rely on the air force alone to beat an enemy. Israeli commanders were strongly criticised for waiting too long to send in ground troops in 2006.

"Our military has learned the lessons from the Lebanon campaign," said Mr Shavit. "We need this campaign to re-establish the deterrent" after the failures of Lebanon.

Efraim Inbar, director of Bar-Ilan University's Begin-Sadat Centre for Strategic Studies, agreed.

"The Israeli army needs to address the problem created to its deterrence in 2006," he said.

"The army has to change its image among its enemies that it is afraid to use ground forces.

"There is no choice but to use ground forces. It does not necessarily need to be a large scale invasion, maybe just special units or localised incursions but the army needs boots on the ground."

Israel will also be under pressure to make the campaign as short as possible, the experts said.

Prime Minister Olmert said this week that Israel was "not interested in conducting a long war".

"Israel is much stronger than Hamas. We can continue the operation longer than Hamas can, but on the other hand we do not have all the time in the world," said Mr Dayan.

He said international pressure will increase for a ceasefire and that domestic pressure will grow while hundreds of thousands of Israelis are in the line of fire of Hamas rockets.

[Latina]

Raketirati Izrael je nepotrebno i sasvim pogresan nacin borbe protiv okupacije! Palestinci treba da se ujedine i na miran, ljudski, i argumentovan nacin od svijeta zatraze ispravljanje nepravde koja im je nacinjena!

Kako da se ujedine, kad maltene ne mogu popricati jedni s drugima. Je li shvatas u kakvom haosu i strahu zive ti ljudi ? Jedni izlaz bi im bio napustanje teritorije na kojoj su . Pa neka se malo ovi sto im vise od pola vijeka rade o glavi pocesu po nadasve njeznim glavicama. Tek tada bi mogli procesuirati sve zlocine i sva krsenja UN Konvencija pocinjena od strane Izraela. Ovako ih skidaju kao glinene golubove, rade od njih kada i sta zele. Horor nad hororima pred ocima demokratskog svijeta.

[zgembo_sa]

Za one koji opravdavaju cionisticke zlocine hamasovim raketama, treba reci da je u izraelu vise ljudi umrlo od gusenja kospama nego od hamasovih raketa. sapienti sat

[Chmoljo]

Raketirati Izrael je nepotrebno i sasvim pogresan nacin borbe protiv okupacije! Palestinci treba da se ujedine i na miran, ljudski, i argumentovan nacin od svijeta zatraze ispravljanje nepravde koja im je nacinjena!

Kako da se ujedine, kad maltene ne mogu popricati jedni s drugima. Je li shvatas u kakvom haosu i strahu zive ti ljudi ? Jedni izlaz bi im bio napustanje teritorije na kojoj su . Pa neka se malo ovi sto im vise od pola vijeka rade o glavi pocesu po nadasve njeznim glavicama. Tek tada bi mogli procesuirati sve zlocine i sva krsenja UN Konvencija pocinjena od strane Izraela. Ovako ih skidaju kao glinene golubove, rade od njih kada i sta zele. Horor nad hororima pred ocima demokratskog svijeta.

onako je kako Latinica kaže.

[bogoljub]

Za one koji opravdavaju cionisticke zlocine hamasovim raketama, treba reci da je u izraelu vise ljudi umrlo od gusenja kospama nego od hamasovih raketa. sapienti sat

[Latina]

Za one koji opravdavaju cionisticke zlocine hamasovim raketama, treba reci da je u izraelu vise ljudi umrlo od gusenja kospama nego od hamasovih raketa. sapienti sat

Koji crnjak...ali ne mogu se nasmijati, valjda zbog toga sto je istina.

[KemooSA]

Za one koji opravdavaju cionisticke zlocine hamasovim raketama, treba reci da je u izraelu vise ljudi umrlo od gusenja kospama nego od hamasovih raketa. sapienti sat

Odlicna usporedba..takodjer treba reci da u americi vise ljudi umre od alergije na kikiriki nego od "terorizma"(smijesno ali istinito) sto ih opet nije sprijecilo da izdvoje 900 miliardi dolara protiv rata sa "teroristima" iako je kikiriki opasniji od bin ladena!!

[Chmoljo]

Za one koji opravdavaju cionisticke zlocine hamasovim raketama, treba reci da je u izraelu vise ljudi umrlo od gusenja kospama nego od hamasovih raketa. sapienti sat

Odlicna usporedba..takodjer treba reci da u americi vise ljudi umre od alergije na kikiriki nego od "terorizma"(smijesno ali istinito) sto ih opet nije sprijecilo da izdvoje 900 miliardi dolara protiv rata sa "teroristima" iako je kikiriki opasniji od bin ladena!!

auta ne idu na kikiriki.

[oldschool]

Za one koji opravdavaju cionisticke zlocine hamasovim raketama, treba reci da je u izraelu vise ljudi umrlo od gusenja kospama nego od hamasovih raketa. sapienti sat

Odlicna usporedba..takodjer treba reci da u americi vise ljudi umre od alergije na kikiriki nego od "terorizma"(smijesno ali istinito) sto ih opet nije sprijecilo da izdvoje 900 miliardi dolara protiv rata sa "teroristima" iako je kikiriki opasniji od bin ladena!!

Zeitgeist

[rado_vidjen]

@placenik kisindzera i vatikana, obozavatelj sotone i sauronov posilni, jez

Ja sticem dojam da je nekome u interesu da ljudi u Gazi zive u neimastini i u stalnom strahu od izraelskih raketa. I taj neko uz pomoc svojih marioneta u Gazi uspijeva omogucavati takvoj situaciji da traje. Narod Gaze je tu nemocan. On tu izgleda sluzi kao zrtveno janje za slikanje da bi ljudi mogli lakse uprijeti prstom u ovaplocenje zla - Izrael.

marioneta je pretpostavljam Hamas.

milku s keksom, molim. ccc, sto si nervozan

kazu da je aliji odgovaralo da ne dolaze konvoji sa hranom i lijekovima, sve ne bi li se na cnn-u ocrnili dobri samaricani, srbi.


nego, sta veli obama? hoce li biti kakih "cejndz", glede politike na blikom istoku? ima li natruha?

[rado_vidjen]

Za one koji opravdavaju cionisticke zlocine hamasovim raketama, treba reci da je u izraelu vise ljudi umrlo od gusenja kospama nego od hamasovih raketa. sapienti sat

Odlicna usporedba..takodjer treba reci da u americi vise ljudi umre od alergije na kikiriki nego od "terorizma"(smijesno ali istinito) sto ih opet nije sprijecilo da izdvoje 900 miliardi dolara protiv rata sa "teroristima" iako je kikiriki opasniji od bin ladena!!

moze se reci da se i od jezovih para (kao poreznog obveznika) ubijaju na hiljade nevinih.


ja ne bih mogao spavat sa tom spoznajom.

[Latina]

ono sto je bitno,sto je general potencirao,pokazalo se tacnim u ratu 2006,izrael nije u stanju da ratuje duze vrijeme,pogotovo kad neprijatelj moze da raketama i artiljerijom pokrije dobar dio izraela

Problem motivacije. Ali to ne umanjuje znacaj cinjenice da je u to vrijeme Bejrut upravo bio stao na noge, a rodjaci su ga fino opet razvalili i ubili hiljadu ljudi, a izgubili par stotina kao sto ti rece.

Mislim da se jako ufuravaju ako misle da mogu ratovati na vise frontova. Zaboravljaju na zilavost naroda koji brani kucu i porodicu, a nema sta izgubiti.

ISRAEL has thousands of troops massed for a ground offensive on Gaza that would aim to deal a hammer blow to Hamas and re-establish Israel's military credentials with its other foes, experts say.

The number of troops and tanks along the 60km border is a military secret but Israeli leaders say the force is ready and local media say the assault is imminent.

Israel launched air strikes and a naval bombardment one week ago in response to weeks of militant rocket fire from Hamas-run Gaza.

Israeli warplanes today hit Gaza targets including a mosque and a house where three young brothers were killed.

A missile from one of 30 new Israeli raids hit a house and killed the boys, aged from seven to 10, emergency services said.

At least 430 Palestinians have been killed - including top Hamas leader Nizar Rayan - and 2250 people wounded in the raids, according to Gaza officials. About 300 militant rockets have killed four people and wounded dozens in Israel.


After Israel's 2006 war in Lebanon, widely condemned as a fiasco, this campaign has been scrupulously prepared and few experts believe Hamas can halt the waiting army.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has called it "iron fist" treatment.

Some analysts say Israel expects dozens of its soldiers to be killed in any ground offensive, but the government insists it wants to stop the rockets.

"Hamas must understand that if it launches rockets in the future it will have to pay a prohibitive price," said Shabtai Shavit, a former head of the Mossad foreign intelligence service and now an adviser to the Israeli National Security Council.

"Israel does not intend to reconquer the Gaza Strip," Mr Shavit said. Any ground campaign "would mean going in and inflicting additional damage and cost to Hamas."

Asked whether this means killing more Hamas leaders or just destroying infrastructure, he said: "Everything."

He predicted a war could last weeks with the ground offensive quickly followed by a phased withdrawal if a "political agreement" with Hamas could be concluded.

Uzi Dayan, a former deputy chief of Israel's general staff and national security adviser to prime ministers Ehud Barak and Ariel Sharon, said the army must control areas of Gaza from which rockets are being launched and "put more pressure on the Hamas leadership and Hamas activists".

He said the Israeli army would need to take control of key areas in Gaza, right up to the Egyptian border where a system of tunnels are used to smuggle weapons and other supplies into the territory.

Mr Dayan said that detaining Hamas leaders and activists will encourage ceasefire negotiations.

"You need some cards, it is not enough to just say 'please stop the bombing'."

Experts also said Israel wants to send a message to Iran, the Hezbollah militia in Lebanon and other enemies that after the disastrous 2006 war in Lebanon, the Middle East's most powerful army is to be feared again.

The main lesson, according to Mr Shavit, Mr Dayan and several Israeli officers, is that an invading force cannot rely on the air force alone to beat an enemy. Israeli commanders were strongly criticised for waiting too long to send in ground troops in 2006.

"Our military has learned the lessons from the Lebanon campaign," said Mr Shavit. "We need this campaign to re-establish the deterrent" after the failures of Lebanon.

Efraim Inbar, director of Bar-Ilan University's Begin-Sadat Centre for Strategic Studies, agreed.

"The Israeli army needs to address the problem created to its deterrence in 2006," he said.

"The army has to change its image among its enemies that it is afraid to use ground forces.

"There is no choice but to use ground forces. It does not necessarily need to be a large scale invasion, maybe just special units or localised incursions but the army needs boots on the ground."

Israel will also be under pressure to make the campaign as short as possible, the experts said.

Prime Minister Olmert said this week that Israel was "not interested in conducting a long war".

"Israel is much stronger than Hamas. We can continue the operation longer than Hamas can, but on the other hand we do not have all the time in the world," said Mr Dayan.

He said international pressure will increase for a ceasefire and that domestic pressure will grow while hundreds of thousands of Israelis are in the line of fire of Hamas rockets.

Ovaj tekst je jeziv. Izvor ?

[_veleposlanik]

da, da... kikiriki i kospice
smijesno, ali je to zapravo zlocesta istina... "sukob civilizacija"........

a, promijenis li ti nekad pjesmu i jesi li u stanju voditi iole suvisao dijalog bez paranoidnih teorija zavjere i propagiranja fasistickih ideja? ti kao gledas na svijet kroz raznolike spektre i perspektive pa imas pravo svima na forumu suditi?!?!? ti si, covjece, totalno delusional.

svakako omarice, itekako sam spustio i spustacu loptu uvijek dok sam ziv, inace bih bio glup. ali, kao sto rekoh jezu u prethodnom postu, problem je etimoloske prirode (vjeruj da jeste) kao i prirode pojedinca i drugih okolnosti. kada bismo prvo tu uspjeli pronaci neki najmanji zajednicki sadrzilac, onda bismo mogli stvoriti i konstruktivan dijalog. medjutim, izgleda da niko od nas nema volje... dosta sam naucio na ovom forumu od dosta pametnijih ljudi. negdje sam pogrijesio i govorio malo vise nego sto sam trebao ili znao, a negdje sam sistematski diskvalifikovan vasim default epitetima... nisam ni upola narcisoidan koliko ti mislis, cak suprotno od toga...

ali takodjer mislim da je dosta pretvaranja i da je doslo vrijeme govoriti onako kako jeste, bez dlake na jeziku, i nazvati stvari svojim imenom. sve u duhu konstruktivne diskusije, koju i sam ponekad znam upropastiti, zasto da ne. ali vi, sveznajuci, sveobuhvatni poznavaoci posebno onog sto godinama slusamo a konacno prestajemo da vjerujemo, ne doprinosite nista pozitivno, nista novo. ne znam da li ste svjesni koliko stetne mogu biti vase izjave, naizgled korektne, pokrivene velom demokratije, sloboda, prava i "cinjenica"...

nije samo 11. septembar problem (koji je jedinstvena, mozda i neponovljiva prilika da skocimo stepen vise u shvatanju nekih osnovnih pojava), vec sto se historija desava pred nasim ocima a mi je ne vidimo!

jos jedna od kljucnih cinjenica jeste da Izrael nakon ovih masakara na civile nece pred nijednim sudom odgovarati, bas kao sto nece niti Amerika za desetine drugih medjunarodnih "sukoba interesa" i utjecaja "interesnih lobija", kao sto, npr, niko ne odgovara za Hiroshimu i Nagasaki. naravno, ko je stvorio igru taj stvara i pravila, tu nema nista sporno (osim toga sto punih usta govorimo o pravdi i moralu).

a ovi sto ubijaju manje od kikirikija i kospica, sto dokazano nemaju nikakve veze sa otmicama zrakoplova, ciji je glavni covjek bivsi CIA agent itd, su teroristi koji prijete "interesima", "demokratiji i slobodi".... ili ovi sto se u julu 2006. branise od daleko nadmocnijeg invazora, koji godinama koristi UN-om zabranjeno oruzje poput napalma i fosfornih bombi, koji imaju stotine nuklearnih glava itd, su takodjer teroristi. Ahmedinedzad koji javno i bez dlake na jeziku to kaze cijelom svijetu je takodjer terorista, njegova drzava je neprijatelj slobode i demokratije... (da se ne zbunimo u prici, ovi sto djeluju protiv su dobri momci, to zna cijeli kapitalisticko-liberalni svijet).

i u medjuvremenu, dok dobar procenat zapada nagadja o slijedecoj boji frizure Britney Spears, demokrate se bore sa teroristima od 3-4 godine starosti pa navise da bismo bez ometanja mogli uzivati u showbizu i onim vaznim zivotnim svakodnevnicama.....


(bice da me prenosi )

[Lawrence]

nema sanse da se izrael povuce na granice iz 1967, i protiv takvog povlacenja je ogromna vecina stanovnika izraela po svim anketama.
drzava bi im bila "siroka" 10-12 km od zapadne obale do mora na potezu izmedju dva najnaseljenija podrucja tel-aviva i haife, i to je ono sto ih najvise brine. a vidimo da i ove hamasove makeshift raketice dobacuju po 30-40 km.

nema tu kompromisa...

Nadam se da nisi u pravu... iako ne bih bas stavio ruku u vatru da sam i ja... Ja se samo nadam da se kalkulacija promjenila jer je po prvi put Sunni Arapskim silama u debelom interesu da se ovo kako-tako razrjeshi... A da su bolni kompromisi neophodni-jesu. A da ni jedni ni drugi nisu navikli da popustaju - nisu. Vidjecemo.

A zasto mislis da je Izrealcima u cilju rijesenje problema?
PLO je zagovarao tu two-state opciju pa su napali Libanon da nadju drugu struju.

Njima bas ne odgovara nezavisna Palestina, dok je cijena tako niska.

Mislim da Izraelu odgovara trajno rjesenje, jednostavno zbog demografije. Kad se i jedan Arel Sharon okrenuo rjesenju i povlacenju, to nije bilo jer je odjednom postao dobar - to je bilo kad su mu prezentovali kalkulacije po kojim Izrael neminovno gubi demografsku bitku ako se pod hitno ne odvoji od Arapa, ito zauvjek. Pa i po cjenu napustanja vecine settlementa.

Naravno, ima mnogo ljudi i sa jedne i sa druge strane kojima mir ne odgovara... vidjecemo.

Mnogo zavisi od sljedcih izbora u Izraelu. Ja kontam ako pobjedi Likud (Netanyahu) koji je izraziti desnicar, Izrael ce ici na rjesenje da se Gaza pripoji (turi, podmetne itd) Egiptu na kontrolu, a da se od West Bank napravi neki Bantustan. Korumpirani Fatahovci bi to mogli i prihvatit, oni lijepo zive. A ako pobjede Khadima (ova treba Livni) i Likud (Barak), onda su moguci pregovori po linijama koje sam napisao gore. No - ne treba meni puno vjerovati, ja sam neizljecivi optimista... Ja vjerujem da ce se i u Bosni lijepo zivjeti za desetak godina

[Lawrence]

Od hizbullaha su iranski instuktori uspjeli napraviti nesto izdaleka nalik na vojsku ali i tom ogranicenom sukobu su Izraelce zaustavili medzunarodni faktori a ne hizbullah. Isto je u Gazi,vojno Palestinci ,to jest hamas nemaju nikakvih sansi,jedino se mogu pouzdati u medzunarodnu zajednicu da zaustavi Izraelce. To im je jedina karta koju imaju,zato i dizu svu ovu halabuku,da bi uspjeli privuci paznju medzunarodne javnosti i njenu naklonost.

hmmm,ili si pristrasan u ovim desavanjima oko islamista ili si neupucen

da ti napisem par cinjenica oko tog sukoba 2006
rat je trajao 33 dana,uz intenzivno bombardiranje izraelske avijacije,sa druge strane hizbullah je svakodnevno granitirao izrael i paralisao je kompletan sjever izraela,oko 1 milion stanovnika i to je ono sto je okoncalo izraelske napade,a sigurno nije medjunarodni faktor
izrael je poslao oko 15 000 pripadnika IDFa,golansku brigadu,koja se smatra najelitnijom jedinicom i ostale elitne jedinice,uz podrsku avijacije,oklopa i artiljerija
hizbullah je angazirao oko 3 000 gerilaca u tom sukobu i njihova predsnot je bila jer su studiozno prostudirali taktiku i strategiju izralske armije i odbranu su prilagodili tome,te su uspjenso parirali na svki napad kopnenih i oklopnih trupa
u tih 33 dana hizbullah je unistio i onesposobio 50-tak markava tenkova i likividarili su par stotina izraelski vojnika

olmert juce rece da izrael ne zeli dug rat,a i jedan jevrejski analiticar je iznio interesantnu cinjenicu jucer,da je idf iznenadjen dometom hamasovih raketa i da sada hamas moze da raketira podrucije u radijusu od 50 km,i da se u tom podruciju nalazi oko 1 milion stanovnika izraela i da su uspjeli da paralisu ta podrucija njihovim raketiranjem i sto je jos dodatni problem nuklearni reaktor u dimoni je u dometu hamasovih raketa,sto dodatno komplicira situaciju

i prije par godina sam citao jednu interesantu analizu egipatskog generala u penziji koji je komandovao napadom 1973,koji je bio strasno uspjesan u samom pocetku,kad su egipcani forsirali suecki kanal i pomeli polozaje izraelcana i general je predlagao sadatu da samo nastave jos par kilometara i da ostanu pod zastitom njihovih protu-avionskih sistema,jer je zelio da prisili izrael na linijsko ratovanje i na duze vrijeme,jer je bio uvjeren da izrael ne moze ratovati duze vrijeme,zbog ekonomije,broja stanovnika,mobilizacije veceg broja,paralize ekonomije
ali sadat nije poslusao tog generala i ponesen pocetnim uspjehom naredjuje daljnje napredovanje i time je izlozio trupe izraelskoj avijaciji,sto su oni poslije dobro iskorisitili i porazili egipatske trupe na sinaju

ono sto je bitno,sto je general potencirao,pokazalo se tacnim u ratu 2006,izrael nije u stanju da ratuje duze vrijeme,pogotovo kad neprijatelj moze da raketama i artiljerijom pokrije dobar dio izraela

Na zalost, id je potpuno u pravu. Hazbullah nije "nesto nalik na vojsku" nego naj organizovanija i opremljenija vojna sila na bliskom istoku poslije IDFa. Kazem "na zalost" jer su takvi kakvi su, pod kompletnom kontrolom Irana i Sirije, nesto kao Iranska armija na granici sa Izraelom. Kad su 2006 izprovocirali Izrael da napadne Liban, imali su ogromnu podrsku cijelog Arapskog svjeta i skoro svih Libanaca (Liban je mnogo komplikovana zemlja, sa Sunni, Shia, Druzima, nekoliko razlicitih Krscanskih religija itd). Nazalost, obrukali su se prosle godine kad su fakticki izvrsili drzavni udar u Libanu i udarili na Sunni muslimane u Bejrutu i Druze u planinama.

To je sad razlog sto se Hazbullah ne usudjuje da se umjesha u ovaj sukob i udari na Izrael s druge strane - znaju da vise nemaju zaledjinu i da bi ih sami Libanci zaustavili.

A sto se Izraela tice, njihova vojna doktrina je kristalno jasna - udri sto put jace i surovije na svakog ko ih dirne ili zaprijeti da ih dirne.

[ld]

ono sto je bitno,sto je general potencirao,pokazalo se tacnim u ratu 2006,izrael nije u stanju da ratuje duze vrijeme,pogotovo kad neprijatelj moze da raketama i artiljerijom pokrije dobar dio izraela

Problem motivacije. Ali to ne umanjuje znacaj cinjenice da je u to vrijeme Bejrut upravo bio stao na noge, a rodjaci su ga fino opet razvalili i ubili hiljadu ljudi, a izgubili par stotina kao sto ti rece.

Mislim da se jako ufuravaju ako misle da mogu ratovati na vise frontova. Zaboravljaju na zilavost naroda koji brani kucu i porodicu, a nema sta izgubiti.

ISRAEL has thousands of troops massed for a ground offensive on Gaza that would aim to deal a hammer blow to Hamas and re-establish Israel's military credentials with its other foes, experts say.

The number of troops and tanks along the 60km border is a military secret but Israeli leaders say the force is ready and local media say the assault is imminent.

Israel launched air strikes and a naval bombardment one week ago in response to weeks of militant rocket fire from Hamas-run Gaza.

Israeli warplanes today hit Gaza targets including a mosque and a house where three young brothers were killed.

A missile from one of 30 new Israeli raids hit a house and killed the boys, aged from seven to 10, emergency services said.

At least 430 Palestinians have been killed - including top Hamas leader Nizar Rayan - and 2250 people wounded in the raids, according to Gaza officials. About 300 militant rockets have killed four people and wounded dozens in Israel.


After Israel's 2006 war in Lebanon, widely condemned as a fiasco, this campaign has been scrupulously prepared and few experts believe Hamas can halt the waiting army.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has called it "iron fist" treatment.

Some analysts say Israel expects dozens of its soldiers to be killed in any ground offensive, but the government insists it wants to stop the rockets.

"Hamas must understand that if it launches rockets in the future it will have to pay a prohibitive price," said Shabtai Shavit, a former head of the Mossad foreign intelligence service and now an adviser to the Israeli National Security Council.

"Israel does not intend to reconquer the Gaza Strip," Mr Shavit said. Any ground campaign "would mean going in and inflicting additional damage and cost to Hamas."

Asked whether this means killing more Hamas leaders or just destroying infrastructure, he said: "Everything."

He predicted a war could last weeks with the ground offensive quickly followed by a phased withdrawal if a "political agreement" with Hamas could be concluded.

Uzi Dayan, a former deputy chief of Israel's general staff and national security adviser to prime ministers Ehud Barak and Ariel Sharon, said the army must control areas of Gaza from which rockets are being launched and "put more pressure on the Hamas leadership and Hamas activists".

He said the Israeli army would need to take control of key areas in Gaza, right up to the Egyptian border where a system of tunnels are used to smuggle weapons and other supplies into the territory.

Mr Dayan said that detaining Hamas leaders and activists will encourage ceasefire negotiations.

"You need some cards, it is not enough to just say 'please stop the bombing'."

Experts also said Israel wants to send a message to Iran, the Hezbollah militia in Lebanon and other enemies that after the disastrous 2006 war in Lebanon, the Middle East's most powerful army is to be feared again.

The main lesson, according to Mr Shavit, Mr Dayan and several Israeli officers, is that an invading force cannot rely on the air force alone to beat an enemy. Israeli commanders were strongly criticised for waiting too long to send in ground troops in 2006.

"Our military has learned the lessons from the Lebanon campaign," said Mr Shavit. "We need this campaign to re-establish the deterrent" after the failures of Lebanon.

Efraim Inbar, director of Bar-Ilan University's Begin-Sadat Centre for Strategic Studies, agreed.

"The Israeli army needs to address the problem created to its deterrence in 2006," he said.

"The army has to change its image among its enemies that it is afraid to use ground forces.

"There is no choice but to use ground forces. It does not necessarily need to be a large scale invasion, maybe just special units or localised incursions but the army needs boots on the ground."

Israel will also be under pressure to make the campaign as short as possible, the experts said.

Prime Minister Olmert said this week that Israel was "not interested in conducting a long war".

"Israel is much stronger than Hamas. We can continue the operation longer than Hamas can, but on the other hand we do not have all the time in the world," said Mr Dayan.

He said international pressure will increase for a ceasefire and that domestic pressure will grow while hundreds of thousands of Israelis are in the line of fire of Hamas rockets.

Ovaj tekst je jeziv. Izvor ?

meni se cini britanske novine su,uglavnom citam tekstove na ovoj stranici dobra je http://www.newsnow.co.uk/h/Hot+Topics/I ... es=&Page=2

Attacks on Gaza doomed, expert believes
By Ferry Biedermann in Beirut
Published: January 2 2009 16:31 | Last updated: January 2 2009 16:31
Israel’s attempt to force the Palestinian group Hamas to comply with a ceasefire on its terms through its offensive against the Gaza Strip is doomed to fail, an international expert on the region predicts.

The attacks on Gaza would leave Hamas in place, said Alastair Crooke. “It is nothing tangible that you can knock down, it is not a building,” he explained.

Israel was also repeating some of the mistakes it made during the 2006 war against Hizbollah, Mr Crooke argued in an interview with the Financial Times. The country’s leadership was divided on the course of action and had no clear view of the endgame, he said.

Just like Hizbollah in 2006, Hamas was hoping to force Israel into launching a risky ground operation by continuing to fire rockets into the Jewish state, he said.

Israel was hesitant to commit ground forces because it was aware that Hamas had changed its fighting capacity and there could be some “surprises”.

Mr Crooke, a former British intelligence officer and EU adviser, expected the outcome of the fighting, irrespective of military developments on the ground, to be an agreement between the two sides that would see the end of Israel’s siege of Gaza and “a return to normalcy” in the klix strip of land.

Israel’s attempt to stop the Hamas rockets had so far failed, as had its targeting of the military leadership of Hamas. And any idea to force Palestinians to abandon Hamas was misguided.

“All the pressure that I hear, not from Hamas but from other Palestinians in Gaza, the real pressure is for revenge,” said Mr Crooke, a former MI6 agent and founder of a forum that explores engagement with groups such as Hamas and Hizbollah.

He saw the current round of fighting and the unwillingness of Hamas to extend the six-month ceasefire that expired last month as a reaction by the group to being squeezed by Israel, the international community and even the Arab League.

Mr Crooke regularly argues for exploring the possibility of talks with groups such as Hamas and Hizbollah rather than isolating them, and emphasises that they have a political agenda.

[Lawrence]

A sto se Hamasa tice, malo istorije nije na odmet...

Hamas is a Creation of Mossad
by Hassane Zerouky

Ahmed Yassin, the spiritual leader of the Islamist movement in Palestine, returning from Cairo in the seventies, established an Islamic charity association. Prime Minister Golda Meir, saw this as a an opportunity to counterbalance the rise of Arafat’s Fatah movement. .According to the Israeli weekly Koteret Rashit (October 1987), "The Islamic associations as well as the university had been supported and encouraged by the Israeli military authority" in charge of the (civilian) administration of the West Bank and Gaza. "They [the Islamic associations and the university] were authorized to receive money payments from abroad."

The Islamists set up orphanages and health clinics, as well as a network of schools, workshops which created employment for women as well as system of financial aid to the poor. And in 1978, they created an "Islamic University" in Gaza. "The military authority was convinced that these activities would weaken both the PLO and the leftist organizations in Gaza." At the end of 1992, there were six hundred mosques in Gaza. Thanks to Israel’s intelligence agency Mossad (Israel’s Institute for Intelligence and Special Tasks) , the Islamists were allowed to reinforce their presence in the occupied territories. Meanwhile, the members of Fatah (Movement for the National Liberation of Palestine) and the Palestinian Left were subjected to the most brutal form of repression.

In 1984, Ahmed Yassin was arrested and condemned to twelve years in prison, after the discovery of a hidden arms cache. But one year later, he was set free and resumed his activities. And when the Intifada (‘uprising’) began, in October 1987, which took the Islamists by surprise, Sheik Yassin responded by creating the Hamas (The Islamic Resistance Movement): "God is our beginning, the prophet our model, the Koran our constitution", proclaims article 7 of the charter of the organization.

Ahmed Yassin was in prison when, the Oslo accords (Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government) were signed in September 1993. The Hamas had rejected Oslo outright. But at that time, 70% of Palestinians had condemned the attacks on Israeli civilians. Yassin did everything in his power to undermine the Oslo accords. Even prior to Prime Minister Rabin’s death, he had the support of the Israeli government. The latter was very reluctant to implement the peace agreement.

The Hamas then launched a carefully timed campaign of attacks against civilians, one day before the meeting between Palestinian and Israeli negotiators, regarding the formal recognition of Israel by the National Palestinian Council. These events were largely instrumental in the formation of a Right wing Israeli government following the May 1996 elections.

Quite unexpectedly, Prime Minister Netanyahu ordered Sheik Ahmed Yassin to be released from prison ("on humanitarian grounds") where he was serving a life sentence. Meanwhile, Netanyahu, together with President Bill Clinton, was putting pressure on Arafat to control the Hamas. In fact, Netanyahu knew that he could rely, once more, on the Islamists to sabotage the Oslo accords. Worse still: after having expelled Yassin to Jordan, Prime Minister Netanyahu allowed him to return to Gaza, where he was welcomed triumphantly as a hero in October 1997.

Arafat was helpless in the face of these events. Moreover, because he had supported Saddam Hussein during the1991 Gulf war, (while the Hamas had cautiously abstained from taking sides), the Gulf states decided to cut off their financing of the Palestinian Authority. Meanwhile, between February and April 1998, Sheik Ahmad Yassin was able to raise several hundred million dollars, from those same countries. The the budget of The Hamas was said to be greater than that of the Palestinian Authority. These new sources of funding enabled the Islamists to effectively pursue their various charitable activities. It is estimated that one Palestinian out of three is the recipient of financial aid from the Hamas. And in this regard, Israel has done nothing to curb the inflow of money into the occupied territories.

The Hamas had built its strength through its various acts of sabotage of the peace process, in a way which was compatible with the interests of the Israeli government. In turn, the latter sought in a number of ways, to prevent the application of the Oslo accords. In other words, Hamas was fulfilling the functions for which it was originally created: to prevent the creation of a Palestinian State.

[kijameta]

Od hizbullaha su iranski instuktori uspjeli napraviti nesto izdaleka nalik na vojsku ali i tom ogranicenom sukobu su Izraelce zaustavili medzunarodni faktori a ne hizbullah. Isto je u Gazi,vojno Palestinci ,to jest hamas nemaju nikakvih sansi,jedino se mogu pouzdati u medzunarodnu zajednicu da zaustavi Izraelce. To im je jedina karta koju imaju,zato i dizu svu ovu halabuku,da bi uspjeli privuci paznju medzunarodne javnosti i njenu naklonost.

hmmm,ili si pristrasan u ovim desavanjima oko islamista ili si neupucen

da ti napisem par cinjenica oko tog sukoba 2006
rat je trajao 33 dana,uz intenzivno bombardiranje izraelske avijacije,sa druge strane hizbullah je svakodnevno granitirao izrael i paralisao je kompletan sjever izraela,oko 1 milion stanovnika i to je ono sto je okoncalo izraelske napade,a sigurno nije medjunarodni faktor
izrael je poslao oko 15 000 pripadnika IDFa,golansku brigadu,koja se smatra najelitnijom jedinicom i ostale elitne jedinice,uz podrsku avijacije,oklopa i artiljerija
hizbullah je angazirao oko 3 000 gerilaca u tom sukobu i njihova predsnot je bila jer su studiozno prostudirali taktiku i strategiju izralske armije i odbranu su prilagodili tome,te su uspjenso parirali na svki napad kopnenih i oklopnih trupa
u tih 33 dana hizbullah je unistio i onesposobio 50-tak markava tenkova i likividarili su par stotina izraelski vojnika

olmert juce rece da izrael ne zeli dug rat,a i jedan jevrejski analiticar je iznio interesantnu cinjenicu jucer,da je idf iznenadjen dometom hamasovih raketa i da sada hamas moze da raketira podrucije u radijusu od 50 km,i da se u tom podruciju nalazi oko 1 milion stanovnika izraela i da su uspjeli da paralisu ta podrucija njihovim raketiranjem i sto je jos dodatni problem nuklearni reaktor u dimoni je u dometu hamasovih raketa,sto dodatno komplicira situaciju

i prije par godina sam citao jednu interesantu analizu egipatskog generala u penziji koji je komandovao napadom 1973,koji je bio strasno uspjesan u samom pocetku,kad su egipcani forsirali suecki kanal i pomeli polozaje izraelcana i general je predlagao sadatu da samo nastave jos par kilometara i da ostanu pod zastitom njihovih protu-avionskih sistema,jer je zelio da prisili izrael na linijsko ratovanje i na duze vrijeme,jer je bio uvjeren da izrael ne moze ratovati duze vrijeme,zbog ekonomije,broja stanovnika,mobilizacije veceg broja,paralize ekonomije
ali sadat nije poslusao tog generala i ponesen pocetnim uspjehom naredjuje daljnje napredovanje i time je izlozio trupe izraelskoj avijaciji,sto su oni poslije dobro iskorisitili i porazili egipatske trupe na sinaju

ono sto je bitno,sto je general potencirao,pokazalo se tacnim u ratu 2006,izrael nije u stanju da ratuje duze vrijeme,pogotovo kad neprijatelj moze da raketama i artiljerijom pokrije dobar dio izraela

Na zalost, id je potpuno u pravu. Hazbullah nije "nesto nalik na vojsku" nego naj organizovanija i opremljenija vojna sila na bliskom istoku poslije IDFa. Kazem "na zalost" jer su takvi kakvi su, pod kompletnom kontrolom Irana i Sirije, nesto kao Iranska armija na granici sa Izraelom. Kad su 2006 izprovocirali Izrael da napadne Liban, imali su ogromnu podrsku cijelog Arapskog svjeta i skoro svih Libanaca (Liban je mnogo komplikovana zemlja, sa Sunni, Shia, Druzima, nekoliko razlicitih Krscanskih religija itd). Nazalost, obrukali su se prosle godine kad su fakticki izvrsili drzavni udar u Libanu i udarili na Sunni muslimane u Bejrutu i Druze u planinama.

To je sad razlog sto se Hazbullah ne usudjuje da se umjesha u ovaj sukob i udari na Izrael s druge strane - znaju da vise nemaju zaledjinu i da bi ih sami Libanci zaustavili.

A sto se Izraela tice, njihova vojna doktrina je kristalno jasna - udri sto put jace i surovije na svakog ko ih dirne ili zaprijeti da ih dirne.

Pa imao sam priliku vidjeti Hizbullah uzivo 2006/7 i kao vojska nisu ostavili nimalo dobar utisak na mene.Ali takodze znam da je Liban apsolutno podjeljeno drustvo i da je Hizbullah najveci neprijatelj normalizacije Libana,cega su ljudi svjesni i da bi svaki sukob koji bi Hizbullah poveo iz Libana,znacio uvlacenje Libana u gradzanski rat,poput onoga 70-ih.
Tako da sa te strane Izrael nece imati vojnih problema,kao sto nece imati vojnih problema sa hamasom.Medzutim za Izrael problem pocinje kada zauzmu Gazu.Zauzmu Gazu i sta onda ??? Jer samo zauzimanje Gaze nece nista rijesiti. To je problem koji se mora rijesavati dogovorom ali ne mislim da cemo mi to docekati.