1984

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Krugman
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#51

Post by Krugman »

St.Germain wrote:
Krugman wrote:
St.Germain wrote: Ne samo da je NSA prisluskivala telefonate sumnjivih lica, nego i obicnih gradjana, citala njihove privatne mail-prepiske u nadi da ce naici na dokaze o teroristickim napadima, a sve bez sudskog naloga i dozvole sudskih vlasti za ovu obimnu spijunazu.
Germa, mozel' malo cinjenica, ziv bio? Taj isti NYT clanak na koji se pozivas je jasno objasnio da nisu nikoga prisluskivali, nego su minirali velike kolicine informacija koje su im telekomunikacijske kompanije predale. O nadziranju emaila nije bilo ni govora.

Prestani prepadati ljude sa dezinformacijama.
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0 ... 50,00.html

ako lazem ja, onda laze i ovaj izvor na koji se pozivam.

BUSH ZBOG PRISLUSKIVANJA POD PRITISKOM je naslov teme.

PS. bit ce da neko jos zna njemacki ovdje, pa da ne bude JA lazem
Germa, pusti bombastican naslov koji proizvoljno definise prisluskivanje. Evo ti orginalni izvor iz NYT-a. Tacno pise koga su nadgledali i kako.




Spy Agency Mined Vast Data Trove, Officials Report

By ERIC LICHTBLAU and JAMES RISEN
Published: December 24, 2005
WASHINGTON, Dec. 23 - The National Security Agency has traced and analyzed large volumes of telephone and Internet communications flowing into and out of the United States as part of the eavesdropping program that President Bush approved after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks to hunt for evidence of terrorist activity, according to current and former government officials.

As part of the program approved by President Bush for domestic surveillance without warrants, the N.S.A. has gained the cooperation of American telecommunications companies to obtain backdoor access to streams of domestic and international communications, the officials said.

The government's collection and analysis of phone and Internet traffic have raised questions among some law enforcement and judicial officials familiar with the program. One issue of concern to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, which has reviewed some separate warrant applications growing out of the N.S.A.'s surveillance program, is whether the court has legal authority over calls outside the United States that happen to pass through American-based telephonic "switches," according to officials familiar with the matter.

"There was a lot of discussion about the switches" in conversations with the court, a Justice Department official said, referring to the gateways through which much of the communications traffic flows. "You're talking about access to such a vast amount of communications, and the question was, How do you minimize something that's on a switch that's carrying such large volumes of traffic? The court was very, very concerned about that."

Since the disclosure last week of the N.S.A.'s domestic surveillance program, President Bush and his senior aides have stressed that his executive order allowing eavesdropping without warrants was limited to the monitoring of international phone and e-mail communications involving people with known links to Al Qaeda.

What has not been publicly acknowledged is that N.S.A. technicians, besides actually eavesdropping on specific conversations, have combed through large volumes of phone and Internet traffic in search of patterns that might point to terrorism suspects. Some officials describe the program as a large data-mining operation.

The current and former government officials who discussed the program were granted anonymity because it remains classified.

Bush administration officials declined to comment on Friday on the technical aspects of the operation and the N.S.A.'s use of broad searches to look for clues on terrorists. Because the program is highly classified, many details of how the N.S.A. is conducting it remain unknown, and members of Congress who have pressed for a full Congressional inquiry say they are eager to learn more about the program's operational details, as well as its legality.

Officials in the government and the telecommunications industry who have knowledge of parts of the program say the N.S.A. has sought to analyze communications patterns to glean clues from details like who is calling whom, how long a phone call lasts and what time of day it is made, and the origins and destinations of phone calls and e-mail messages. Calls to and from Afghanistan, for instance, are known to have been of particular interest to the N.S.A. since the Sept. 11 attacks, the officials said.

This so-called "pattern analysis" on calls within the United States would, in many circumstances, require a court warrant if the government wanted to trace who calls whom.

The use of similar data-mining operations by the Bush administration in other contexts has raised strong objections, most notably in connection with the Total Information Awareness system, developed by the Pentagon for tracking terror suspects, and the Department of Homeland Security's Capps program for screening airline passengers. Both programs were ultimately scrapped after public outcries over possible threats to privacy and civil liberties.
St.Germain
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#52

Post by St.Germain »

Entgegen den Beteuerungen des Weißen Hauses hätten Techniker der NSA nicht nur die Gespräche Verdächtiger, sondern auch Telefongespräche und E-Mails unbescholtener Bürger in der Hoffnung kontrolliert, Hinweise auf Terrorverdächtige zu finden.
nasuprot tvrdnji Bijele Kuce, tehnicko osoblje NSA ne samo da je prisluskivalo telefonate osumnjicenih, nego i telefonate neduznih gradjana i kontrolisala e-mail prepiske u nadi da ce naici na podatke u vezi sa osumnjicenim za terorizam
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Alfons Kauders
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#53

Post by Alfons Kauders »

Krugman wrote: To sto alkaida koristi demagogiju da rekrutira svoje sljedbenike bi trebalo da sprijeci zapadne vlade da koriste razumne sigurnosne mjere? nema smisla.

Medjutim to ukazuje na potrebu da razumni ljudi kao ja i ti, pogotovo islamske organizacije na zapadu, prvo shvate o cemu se radi, a onda budu aktivni dio onemogucavanja toga u svojim zajednicama.
Svi koriste demagogiju, samo sto demagogija terorista ubija desetine ljudi, a demagogija Bushove administracije desetine hiljada.

Ne smatram da je ogranicavanje sloboda garantovanih Ustavom SAD "razumna sigurnosna mjera", i ne smatram da takve sigurnosne mjere mogu biti efikasne. Mozda mogu sprijeciti sirenje radikalne ideologije, ali nesto sumnjam da ce sad teroriste koristiti mail, forume i pricati telefonom poput normalnog svijeta...
Krugman
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#54

Post by Krugman »

St.Germain wrote:
Entgegen den Beteuerungen des Weißen Hauses hätten Techniker der NSA nicht nur die Gespräche Verdächtiger, sondern auch Telefongespräche und E-Mails unbescholtener Bürger in der Hoffnung kontrolliert, Hinweise auf Terrorverdächtige zu finden.
nasuprot tvrdnji Bijele Kuce, tehnicko osoblje NSA ne samo da je prisluskivalo telefonate osumnjicenih, nego i telefonate neduznih gradjana i kontrolisala e-mail prepiske u nadi da ce naici na podatke u vezi sa osumnjicenim za terorizam
Germa, pogresno je preneseno. Da naglasim.

"eavesdropping without warrants was limited to the monitoring of international phone and e-mail communications involving people with known links to Al Qaeda. "

and

"combed through large volumes of phone and Internet traffic in search of patterns that might point to terrorism suspects. Some officials describe the program as a large data-mining operation. "
Šandor
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#55

Post by Šandor »

Alfons Kauders wrote:Ono sto se mora promijeniti u glavama stanovnika zapadnih sila ( tj. u "nacinu zivota") je odnos nezainteresiranosti za postupke njihovih vlada. Moraju shvatiti da kad hoce da podrzavaju zlocninacku politiku imaju mnogo vecu sansu da odlete u zrak u nekom vozu, zgradi i sl. nego gradjani drugih zemalja...
To je to. Ali to nije do stanovnika. U Izraelu ne postoji politička opcija koja bi sjahala s vrata Palestincima. U Americi ne postoji opcija koja bi sanirala sranja koja su napravili njihovi prethodnici.
Šandor
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#56

Post by Šandor »

NeKi_LiK wrote:Nakon WTC-a ne bi me čudilo i da im djeci ruksake u školi pregledaju... ozbiljno... :)

S druge strane baš me zanima kakvi bi komentari bili kada bi se s vremena na vrijeme vršila kontrola srpskih stanova u Sarajevu :oops:

Čisto, prevencije radi, da se vidi naoružavaju li se opet :roll: ...
:-)
Krugman
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#57

Post by Krugman »

Alfons Kauders wrote:
digger wrote:
Alfons Kauders wrote:Ako u "zapadne vrijednosti" spada gazenje palestinske djece tenkovima, ili uskracivanje lijekova i hrane Iraku u proteklih desetak godina, onda sam i ja za unistenje zapadnih vrijednosti.
Alfons, znas ti daleko bolje od ovoga. Ovaj udarac je cak i nize nego "ispod pojasa."
Ne, pazi vazda ide prica "protect our way of life", pa care moj uopste nije problem u internim stvarima SAD i nacinu zivota gore, jednostavno terorizam je stvorila ohola i beskrupulozna vanjska politika americkih administracija od Trumana do danas. Dakle decenijama daju povod ljudima da ih mrze i onda kad najebu postanu jos gori - nista ko fol nisu skontali. Sta mislis kako bi se BiH provela da je umjesto '92. rat poceo '02. i da je krenula propaganda kako se, eto Srbija bori protiv terorista ? Danas imas slicnu situaciju u Ceceniji...

Ono sto se mora promijeniti u glavama stanovnika zapadnih sila ( tj. u "nacinu zivota") je odnos nezainteresiranosti za postupke njihovih vlada. Moraju shvatiti da kad hoce da podrzavaju zlocninacku politiku imaju mnogo vecu sansu da odlete u zrak u nekom vozu, zgradi i sl. nego gradjani drugih zemalja...
Alf, slazem se da ljudi trebaju preuzeti odgovornost za akcije njihove vlade i slazem se da su ameri historijski neke stvari profulali.

Ali karakterisati vanjsku politiku jedne nacije koja je porazila fasizam, komunizam, i totalitarizam za dobrobit cijelog svijeta kao beskrupuloznu je totalni promasaj.
St.Germain
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#58

Post by St.Germain »

o data-mining operation je i u ovom clanku rijec, pored klasicnog prisluskivanja. A ni zato nisu imali dozvolu sudskih vlasti nego je to cinjeno samovoljno.
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Alfons Kauders
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#59

Post by Alfons Kauders »

Krugman wrote: Ali karakterisati vanjsku politiku jedne nacije koja je porazila fasizam, komunizam, i totalitarizam za dobrobit cijelog svijeta kao beskrupuloznu je totalni promasaj.
I Staljin je pobijedio fasizam, cak je njegov doprinos dosta veci od americkog, ali to ne mijenja cinjenicu da je zlocinac. :D
Krugman
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#60

Post by Krugman »

St.Germain wrote:o data-mining operation je i u ovom clanku rijec, pored klasicnog prisluskivanja. A ni zato nisu imali dozvolu sudskih vlasti nego je to cinjeno samovoljno.
Nije im trebalo sudsko ovlastenje za klasicno prisluskivanje ljudi koji imaju veze sa Alkaidom zato sto su imali "executive order", odnosno posebno ovlastenje koje je kongres dao Bushu poslije napada.
Krugman
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#61

Post by Krugman »

Alfons Kauders wrote:
Krugman wrote: Ali karakterisati vanjsku politiku jedne nacije koja je porazila fasizam, komunizam, i totalitarizam za dobrobit cijelog svijeta kao beskrupuloznu je totalni promasaj.
I Staljin je pobijedio fasizam, cak je njegov doprinos dosta veci od americkog, ali to ne mijenja cinjenicu da je zlocinac. :D
Udaras non stop ispod pojasa. Stvarno nema smisla vise diskutirati.
St.Germain
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#62

Post by St.Germain »

Krugman wrote:
St.Germain wrote:o data-mining operation je i u ovom clanku rijec, pored klasicnog prisluskivanja. A ni zato nisu imali dozvolu sudskih vlasti nego je to cinjeno samovoljno.
Nije im trebalo sudsko ovlastenje za klasicno prisluskivanje ljudi koji imaju veze sa Alkaidom zato sto su imali "executive order", odnosno posebno ovlastenje koje je kongres dao Bushu poslije napada.
Krugman...ja se predajem. argumentiram na osnovu dostupnih izvora, ali kad njih proglasis nelegitimnim onda nemam volje da se upustam u dalju diskusiju, jer ne zivim u USA.
Krugman
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#63

Post by Krugman »

St.Germain wrote:
Krugman wrote:
St.Germain wrote:o data-mining operation je i u ovom clanku rijec, pored klasicnog prisluskivanja. A ni zato nisu imali dozvolu sudskih vlasti nego je to cinjeno samovoljno.
Nije im trebalo sudsko ovlastenje za klasicno prisluskivanje ljudi koji imaju veze sa Alkaidom zato sto su imali "executive order", odnosno posebno ovlastenje koje je kongres dao Bushu poslije napada.
Krugman...ja se predajem. argumentiram na osnovu dostupnih izvora, ali kad njih proglasis nelegitimnim onda nemam volje da se upustam u dalju diskusiju, jer ne zivim u USA.
Nista, mozda ce Spiegel i taj "sitni" detalj prenijeti jednog od ovih dana. U svakom slucaju imas iznad kopiju orginalnog clanka iz NYT na koji su se oni kako si mi objasnio pozivali pa pogledaj tu pise.
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Alfons Kauders
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#64

Post by Alfons Kauders »

Krugman wrote:
Alfons Kauders wrote:
Krugman wrote: Ali karakterisati vanjsku politiku jedne nacije koja je porazila fasizam, komunizam, i totalitarizam za dobrobit cijelog svijeta kao beskrupuloznu je totalni promasaj.
I Staljin je pobijedio fasizam, cak je njegov doprinos dosta veci od americkog, ali to ne mijenja cinjenicu da je zlocinac. :D
Udaras non stop ispod pojasa. Stvarno nema smisla vise diskutirati.
Sto je ispod pojasa ?

Uradili su dosta dobrih stvari, digli Evropu na noge, odbranili Koreju, zaustavili sirenje staljinizma, stvroili cuda, ali moras se sloziti da treba gledati i drugu stranu price, koja ima tamne mrlje bez obzira na sve...
Krugman
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#65

Post by Krugman »

Alfons Kauders wrote:
Krugman wrote:
Alfons Kauders wrote: I Staljin je pobijedio fasizam, cak je njegov doprinos dosta veci od americkog, ali to ne mijenja cinjenicu da je zlocinac. :D
Udaras non stop ispod pojasa. Stvarno nema smisla vise diskutirati.
Sto je ispod pojasa ?

Uradili su dosta dobrih stvari, digli Evropu na noge, odbranili Koreju, zaustavili sirenje staljinizma, stvroili cuda, ali moras se sloziti da treba gledati i drugu stranu price, koja ima tamne mrlje bez obzira na sve...
Ti si karakterisao vanjsku politiku amerike tokom vremena kojeg su oni postigli sve te stvari iznad kao beskrupoloznu i zlocinacku. Takvo nastrano gledanje stvari je po mom misljenju u losem ukusu i ocigledno prisutno i u diskusiji o nadgledanju.

Drugarski ti preporucujem da se malo manje fokusiras sa tamnih mrlji na vecu poentu.
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Alfons Kauders
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#66

Post by Alfons Kauders »

Krugman wrote: Ti si karakterisao vanjsku politiku amerike tokom vremena kojeg su oni postigli sve te stvari iznad kao beskrupoloznu i zlocinacku. Takvo nastrano gledanje stvari je po mom misljenju u losem ukusu i ocigledno prisutno i u diskusiji o nadgledanju.

Drugarski ti preporucujem da se malo manje fokusiras sa tamnih mrlji na vecu poentu.
nisam, vec beskrupuloznu i oholu, i ostajem pri svome...
Krugman
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#67

Post by Krugman »

Alfons Kauders wrote:
Krugman wrote: Ti si karakterisao vanjsku politiku amerike tokom vremena kojeg su oni postigli sve te stvari iznad kao beskrupoloznu i zlocinacku. Takvo nastrano gledanje stvari je po mom misljenju u losem ukusu i ocigledno prisutno i u diskusiji o nadgledanju.

Drugarski ti preporucujem da se malo manje fokusiras sa tamnih mrlji na vecu poentu.
nisam, vec beskrupuloznu i oholu, i ostajem pri svome...
da bi dodao:
Alfons Kauders wrote:Moraju shvatiti da kad hoce da podrzavaju zlocninacku politiku imaju mnogo vecu sansu da odlete u zrak u nekom vozu, zgradi i sl. nego gradjani drugih zemalja....
Zar je terorizam nesto sto se moze shvatiti? Koju su zlocinacku politiku onda jadni spanci podrzavali kad ih je raznijelo u vozu na posao? Sta su jadna iracka djeca skrivila kad ih raznose svaki dan?

Upravo o ovome nema svrhe diskutirati jer je van zdrave pameti.

[/b]
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Alfons Kauders
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#68

Post by Alfons Kauders »

Krugman wrote: nisam, vec beskrupuloznu i oholu, i ostajem pri svome...
da bi dodao:
Alfons Kauders wrote:Moraju shvatiti da kad hoce da podrzavaju zlocninacku politiku imaju mnogo vecu sansu da odlete u zrak u nekom vozu, zgradi i sl. nego gradjani drugih zemalja....
Zar je terorizam nesto sto se moze shvatiti? Koju su zlocinacku politiku onda jadni spanci podrzavali kad ih je raznijelo u vozu na posao? Sta su jadna iracka djeca skrivila kad ih raznose svaki dan?

Upravo o ovome nema svrhe diskutirati jer je van zdrave pameti.

[/b][/quote]

De ba, k'o da u Avazu radis pa vadis stvari van konteksta... :D

Dakle, nisam rekao da su sve americke administracije zlocinacke, a to sto sam dodao nema veze s Amerima vec je rijec o generalizaciji... Naime narod je uvijek djelimicno odgovoran, eto kod nas su majmuni na vlasti, ko je kriv ? Narod naravno... Terorizam se moze shvatiti, nije rijec o tome da li neko "u vozu u Spaniji" direknto podrzava tu politiku, vec o tome da ce cijelo drustvo ispastati za grijehe onih koji ga vode, uvijek je tako bilo i uvijek ce biti. Ako neko pocini zlocin moze uvijek ocekivati da ce mu se uzvratiti istom mjerom, koliko god nemoralno to tebi izgledalo.
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danas
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#69

Post by danas »

kad vec spominjemo orwell-a i bush-a, evo mali doprinos ovoj diskusiji :)


War is Peace

by Timothy Snyder

It seems far-fetched to compare today's America to the totalitarian nightmare of Orwell's "1984". But the novel can also be read as a warning about the failings of mass democracies, especially in wartime.

Written in 1948, George Orwell's 1984 has been interpreted as a fearful description of the power of communism to rule minds. In the klix year, when the novel received renewed attention, no one doubted that its subject was the Soviet Union, the "evil empire" of Ronald Reagan's famous phrase. Yet reread today, the story, and its setting, give one pause.

The action of 1984 takes place not in Moscow, but in London. In the story, London and Britain have been absorbed by a larger transatlantic empire, known as Oceania. The heartland of Oceania is today's US. In the world Orwell describes, it is not socialism that has failed, but rather modernity and mass democracy. The state has outgrown society, and rulers have found techniques to maintain permanent power while denying prosperity and liberty to their populations.

While Orwell is unsparing in his descriptions of torture, violence is not the main subject. In Oceania, people generally believe what their rulers tell them because they cannot articulate their disagreement, or because they lack the imagination to consider alternatives. The power of the state to prevent independent thought is Orwell's true subject.

Reread by an American in 2004, the novel 1984 finds surprising points of contact with everyday reality. To be sure, the US of today is obviously not the totalitarian society that Orwell describes. Yet Orwell wrote the novel for citizens of democratic societies as a warning about possible futures, and some of his concerns seem rather timely.

Take the three slogans of Oceania's rulers: War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength.

The current US president constantly defines the Americans as a peaceful people. Yet the only foreign policy innovation of his administration has been the doctrine of pre-emptive war. The president constantly speaks of freedom; it has become a kind of verbal tic. Yet his administration is the only one since the 1940s substantially to reduce the civil rights of Americans.
The word "strong" appears incessantly in official pronouncement of all kinds. The president, it appears, maintains his own strength by purposefully ignoring the world around him. In so far as this makes him more likeable, it is indeed his political strength.

How can such contradictory ideas be persuasive? Part of the answer has to do with the manipulation of the language itself, with what Orwell called Newspeak. In Oceania, Newspeak progressively replaced Standard English, reducing the number of words in the language and promoting neologisms meant to curb thought. As everyone knows, America's official discourse, as typified by the president's active vocabulary, has declined precipitously. Indeed, the press and public often have trouble understanding what the president has to say, since it is expressed in a kind of ersatz English that, when read, often makes no sense. The press rarely quotes the president, since what he says works only in spoken language, and not always then. But the president's genius for linguistic innovation is only part of the problem. His administration also generates Newspeak on purpose.

The USA Patriot Act (Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism), for example, exploits the positive associations of the words "USA" and "patriot" to name a law that restricts the freedoms of many Americans. The war in Iraq is fought by a "coalition," not the US army, although 90 per cent of coalition casualties are Americans. The attackers of 11 September were "our enemy", a general term that is then applied to people who had nothing to do with the attack, such as Saddam Hussein.

To live in such contradictions is to engage in what Orwell called ''doublethink'': "the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind and accepting both of them". Without some notion of this kind, it is impossible to follow the American debate on terrorism. For years now, high officials of the US government have accepted that there is no evidence of any connection between Saddam Hussein and the attacks of 11 September while nevertheless arguing that there was such a connection. As we now know, the president demanded that his intelligence officers produce a report demonstrating such a link, even as he was informed that there was no factual basis for his claim. Administration officials praise the findings of his congressional inquiry that denies any such connection and then claim that these reports actually support their own position.

These opposing views are expressed by different members of the same administration; more interestingly, they are also expressed by the same person, at different moments.
Evidence about the world is not entirely denied, but it seems to be held apart from some deeper truth, accessible only by faith. Some American leaders, the president and the vice-president in particular, may simply have a different conception of truth: it is what they feel to be true at the moment when they are asked. They really do feel it, when they say it, although at some level they know it to be false. His is the essence of doublethink, and it is also perhaps the secret of Bush's popularity.

In Orwell's dystopia, the rulers believe that there is no external truth that their methods cannot defeat. Oceania's population does indeed seem capable of denying external reality in favor of the party's message, even when that message changes. Some of the most terrifying moments in 1984 take place when it becomes clear that people's beliefs about the world can be changed at a moment's notice. When the novel begins Oceania is at war with Eurasia and at peace with Eastasia. Later, Oceania suddenly makes peace with Eurasia and goes to war with Eastasia. Oceania's population is not expected to endorse this change, since they are not expected to notice it. Instead, they are actively to endorse the new war and to forget the old one. As citizens, they are expected to support war as such and not to ask any questions.

Now it might be too much to expect Americans to remember that, during earlier Republican administrations, the US supported mujahedin such as Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan, as well as Saddam Hussein in his war with Iran. To recall these basic facts is to make no accusation of hypocrisy: foreign policy must fit the times and there is nothing inherently wrong with change. These alterations in policy probably made sense. What is chilling is that these earlier policies are seldom recalled in discussion of present ones. More frightening still, though, was the ability of the Bush administration to change the focus of much of the nation's anger from Bin Laden to Saddam Hussein, from al Qaeda to Iraq. This was indeed like the sudden shift from war against Eurasia to war against Eastasia. No good reason was given; people were expected to go along with it and, in general, they did. How can rulers achieve this kind of instant con sent?


Orwell's cruelest insight is that people have little desire to know the truth. This is an important challenge to a certain kind of optimism in the liberal tradition. The core texts of liberal toleration, such as Milton's Areopagitica and Mill's On Liberty, take for granted that individuals will wish to know the truth. They contend that in the absence of censorship, truth will eventually emerge and be recognized as such. But even in democracies this may not always be true.

In Orwell's novel, the state manages reality by altering public memory of the very recent past. In today's US, Fox News and talk radio both closely associated with the Republican party and the present administration?engage in practices redolent of those Orwell describes. One of these is the obliteration of the immediate past when it contradicts the message of the rulers of today. In Oceania, this is the task of the Ministry of Truth. In the US, it is the task of Fox News. When Al Gore recently gave an important speech criticizing President Bush, Fox News presented its own "analysis" of the speech rather than the speech itself.

Although Gore received more votes in the last presidential election than Bush, he has in effect no mass media voice in the US. The event was re-created, as it were, before it even reached the consciousness of the typical television viewer. It never "happened". Only the criticism, which was in fact mockery, happened. Another tactic is the conscious destruction of personalities by repeated ad hominem attacks. In Oceania, the state ordered the "two minutes hate", an exercise in which enemies had to be loudly vilified by the public. In the US, popular right wing talk radio hosts identify supposed traitors, and expose them to ridicule. After Richard Clarke published his account of the Bush anti-terror policy, talk radio impugned his competence and his patriotism, even though the man had served in four presidential administrations, three of them Republican. Although Clarke was responsible for fighting terrorism under President Bush, he has in effect no mass media voice.

Fox News and talk radio are not, of course, the only sources of information in the US today but they are the main news outlets for a large part of the population. And even the best independent newspapers, the New York Times and the Washington Post, failed to present some of the basic facts in the run up to the Iraq war. Similarly, Rush Limbaugh, the leading American radio hatemonger, would never make it in Canada. Talk radio has no international resonance, since what it says has no factual value. But what the rest of the world thinks makes no difference. As one of the rulers of Oceania puts it: "We can shut them out of existence. Oceania is the world". This is, perhaps, the most impressive achievement of the Bush administration: the creation of a purely American rhetorical space, all but closed to outside influences.

Of course, this rhetorical space is stratified. Some people did listen to Al Gore's speech. Many people bought Richard Clarke's book. There is a segment of American society that has no doubts about some of the facts under discussion during the current election campaign. To take one important example: it is simply a fact that Bush used personal connections to avoid the draft during the Vietnam war, while John Kerry served in Vietnam with honor. Yet with the help of Fox News, talk radio and negative television advertisements, the Bush administration and its supporters have clouded this issue for most of the American public.

As far as the president is concerned, it is of little importance that one section of the American population understands facts as facts. A larger section of the population can be persuaded by media campaigns. This, too, resembles Oceania. In 1984, there is still a group that remembers the past, and is capable of drawing conclusions about facts in the present. Its members have some understanding of the manipulation of reality taking place around them. They are, however, powerless to change that reality.

In both Oceania and America, forces deeper than media techniques are at play. Orwell understood that social pressures can be arranged so that falsehood rather than truth will emerge. Just as people can encourage others to be critical and reflective, they can also create an environment in which passivity and ignorance feel safest. The most chilling and unforgettable image of 1984 is the poster of Big Brother, captioned "Big Brother is watching you". These posters are simply posters. It is not even clear in the novel whether Big Brother is a living person. Yet the posters contribute to a moral climate in which people police themselves, and their own thoughts. Vaclav Havel, writing in communist Czechoslovakia, described a greengrocer who placed a sign in his shop that read "Workers of the World Unite". The greengrocer, who has no ideological preferences himself, does this to avoid unwanted attention from the authorities. In so doing, he communicates the idea that it is best to accept the official message of the authorities.

Although it pains me (as a former Boy Scout) to make this observation, the American flag now functions in much the same way. In the months after 11th September, Americans displayed the flag as a sincere expression of grief, anger, pride and solidarity. Three years later, high officials of the US government (and leading newscasters) continue to wear flag pins on their lapels. These shiny little flags no longer convey any clear message. Some people wear them to intimidate others. Others wear them because they are intimidated. Many people don't really give it much thought. And no one wants to court accusations of lack of patriotism in a time of war.

In Orwell's Oceania, falsehood and war bring impoverishment. The state impoverishes society by devoting its resources to fighting a useless war. In the atmosphere of perpetual war, Orwell suggests, people will accept not only abridgments of their freedom, but also reductions in living standards. This appears at first to be a fundamental difference between the Oceania of the novel and the America of reality. Who could accuse President Bush of opposing consumption? Yet on a deeper level, the correspondence between calculated war, calculated falsehood and calculated impoverishment holds true.

It appears that the leading figures of the Bush administration had two main preoccupations before September 2001: tax cuts for the rich, and war in Iraq. The attacks of 11th September allowed them to carry out both politics. Strange as it may seem, tax cuts for the rich were presented as necessary in a time of war, and criticism of them was presented as unpatriotic. As a result, the less privileged classes of American society pay for the war in Iraq in two ways: with their lives, because the US army is drawn mainly from the poor, but also in the long run with their livelihoods. The result of big tax cuts during an expensive war has been the creation of a truly frightening national debt. The national debt, about $7.4 trillion, is currently increasing by about $1.69bn a day. President Bush's last budget included an annual deficit of more than $500bn ? a record. More than one in eight Americans now lives below the official poverty line. Over the long run, the increase of government debt means a reduction of government services to the American poor.


These resemblances between fact and fiction should not be pushed too far. But they are a reminder that Orwell's warnings in 1984 apply to the pathologies of mass democracies ? and not just to Bush's America ? as well as to the more obvious horrors of totalitarian states. Orwell asked us to be attentive to language, to believe in truth and to identify the means by which democracy can be corrupted. The key mechanism in Oceania, as in the contemporary US, is the conscious manipulation of the social psychology of war. The population of Oceania is fed regular reports of great victories in Asia, alternating with alarming reports of new threats to the home land.

Here the comparison with today's US is too obvious to labor. Americans are told of great victories in Afghanistan and Iraq (both questionable), and constantly reminded by vague colour-coded signals from the department of homeland security that terrorists could attack at any moment.

The fundamental similarity between Oceania and America is the disabling of political discussion by the rhetoric of war. As one realizes by the end of 1984, Oceania's continuous wars in Eurasia and Eastasia serve no particular purpose, aside from providing the stimuli that allow the population to be confused, manipulated and ruled. The merits of particular American military interventions are debatable. I believe that the war in Afghanistan was prosecuted without sufficient resources and conviction, and that the war in Iraq was a mistake from the beginning. But the problem for American society is not so much the policies as the ways in which those who make them define and explain them to the public.

The struggle against international terrorism by military and other means need not have been defined as a perpetual war of good against evil. We are a country "at war", as Bush likes to say, and he is a "war president". This is not a description of a particular action or mood, but of a permanent existential state. The hero of 1984 "could not remember a time when his country had not been at war". Since Bush has won the presidential election, the youngest generation of Americans will soon be able to say the same.

As a society, we are less peaceful, less free and less informed than we were a few years ago. War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength.

Timothy Snyder is an Associate Professor of History at Yale University.

:D :roll: :(
Last edited by danas on 28/12/2005 01:00, edited 1 time in total.
dinash
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#70

Post by dinash »

preporucujem download/kupovinu/kradju i potom gledanje:

The Power of Nightmares
by Adam Curtis (bbc produkcija)
This film explores the origins in the 1940s and 50s of Islamic Fundamentalism in the Middle East, and Neoconservatism in America, parallels between these movements, and their effect on the world today. From the introduction to Part 1:

"Both [the Islamists and Neoconservatives] were idealists who were born out of the failure of the liberal dream to build a better world. And both had a very similar explanation for what caused that failure. These two groups have changed the world, but not in the way that either intended. Together, they created today?s nightmare vision of a secret, organized evil that threatens the world. A fantasy that politicians then found restored their power and authority in a disillusioned age. And those with the darkest fears became the most powerful." The Power of Nightmares, Baby It's Cold Outside.

link 1: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/3755686.stm

link 2: http://www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfNightmares
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danas
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Location: 10th circle...

#71

Post by danas »

NeKi_LiK wrote: S druge strane baš me zanima kakvi bi komentari bili kada bi se s vremena na vrijeme vršila kontrola srpskih stanova u Sarajevu :oops:

Čisto, prevencije radi, da se vidi naoružavaju li se opet :roll: ...
ovo mi je nekako promaklo :-)
a nemaju razloga strahovati, osim ako nisu cetnici, jel' tako :D :roll:
bas kao ni ja u ameriKi... :-?
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Fair Life
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#72

Post by Fair Life »

Alfons Kauders wrote:(...)
Terorizam se moze shvatiti, nije rijec o tome da li neko "u vozu u Spaniji" direknto podrzava tu politiku, vec o tome da ce cijelo drustvo ispastati za grijehe onih koji ga vode, uvijek je tako bilo i uvijek ce biti. Ako neko pocini zlocin moze uvijek ocekivati da ce mu se uzvratiti istom mjerom, koliko god nemoralno to tebi izgledalo.
Shvatiti... mozda, ali ne i opravdati.

(Ne znam Alfonse zasto ne shvatismo terorizam kojem smo bili izlozeni od '92 do '95.)
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