kamen spoticanja wrote:
grad se zove istaNbul...i 70tih se tako zvao...
jedan veliki kvart istaNbula zove se yenibosna...u dijelu istaNbula zvanom bayrampasa zivi sve go bosnjo...na pendiku isto tako,na tuzli...tako imaju neke veze bosnjo i istaNbul...kao i bosnjo i turska...i veze su sve jace...tema je najbolji pokazatelj
kamen_spoticanja,ti si izgleda samo bio u truskoj u svom cijelom zivotu,ili nisi,nadam se,jer je takomnoog drzava i gradova koji upravo "nose" ime jendog naroda ,tacnije,njegovih imigranata
zlata wrote:Ergot
For your reference...the Turks...left 2 decent mosques in "my" part of Bosnia Herzegovina. (One other interesting mosque was a converted church). Hardly any schools. No decent roads. No railroads. Mostly uneducated population.
Today's Turks take great pride in the Ottomans' accomplishments..AND with PRIDE comes "ownership", responsibility and accountability. If they don't disown their own history...Why should I do it for them?
Just like any former imperial power, they OUGHT to face up to the positive and negative consequences of their historical glory. It's up to us, the descendants of their former subjects, to tell them...."It wasnt' always SO great". We paid a HEAVY price for Ottoman mercy and tolerance. WE paid DERALY...for physical survival, as Moslems.
It's just...that our neighbours seem (often are) worse, much more antagonistic, directly hostile..and physically SO close...so we can't objectively see reality for what it is. Our historical memory... can't get far from the fear of physical annihilation...and AT LEAST..under the Turks...WE LIVED. Yes...but at what cost?
In a VERY short time...the Austro-Hungarian Empire built countless schools (including the one I attended)...railroads, factories, mines....and to this day, Bosnian students have the opportunity to study in Austria's excellent PUBLIC universities.
Between corrupt Turks and corrupt Germans...I choose the latter. I am not insinuating that all Turks and Germans are corrupt. History has proven...that at least the Germans (read Austrians) leave something sizable, FOR US. Even in ancient times...they were less hedonistic, more dilligent...and to this day...the stereotype STICKS. Like glue.
As far as Turks go...I also have distant relatives in Turkey...who fled Bosnia many years ago...have spoken to many Turks of Bosnian descent...and have heard first hand accounts of the social discrimination Bosnians experienced, upon arrival in Turkey. They HAD to become Turks. Change names. ASSIMILATE.
WELL HELL, THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO GO TO TURKEY...to do that! If they fled to Turkey in order to keep their faith...what for? How many of their descendents are practicing Moslems today (and also, Bosnian speaking self declared, Bosnians) ?
Personally, I don't wish to make this topic a Turkey bashing one...but I spoke my mind. In a world of enemies and indifference..Turkey seems a friend.
ERGOT...your explanation of the Ottoman invasion of Bosnia is pure REVISIONISM...and your insinuation that any Bosnian who DARES to see the Ottomans for what they were, INVADERS ...is a copy-cat Serb-Croat nationalist..imitating the intransigent exagerations of Serb and Croat extremists...You are OFF, by many miles.
Well sorry...but you've got it wrong. There are Bosnians...for whom INVADERS are INVADERS...Croats, Serbs, TURKS..or Austro-Hungarians, or Martians.
ISTANBUL...again...I wish to say that I am very HAPPY and honoured that you are interested in Bosnia, and acknowledge your Bosnian roots. I'll never forget the day I met a Turkish family in the US. The son kept saying..."we were originally Bosnian from Mostar". The father, an old man...who grew up as a Bosnian refugee in Ataturk's Turkey...kept insisting that he was REALLY A TURK...but "accidentally" born in Mostar.
It was kind of sad. Here they were...father and son. The son, a very successful American doctor, had been raised as a "real" Turk...and spared the trials of "mudzahirluk" of an ethnic minority. He was so Turkish..he didn't need to insist on it. The father was a "Turk for survival", by assimilation. And both...the extreme stereotypes of a "Slavic" physical appearance, very tall and very fair. Hardly "Turkish".
I also wish to return to Bosnia...and raise my family in my "hick" town..where my roots go so deep...I feel related to the first "gorilla" who climbed down "that" oak tree, and said "I am Mujo". "Are you Fate"? (Mujo and Fate are characters in many Bosnian jokes).
I also wish that Bosnia will be spared the fate of further privatization...especially in education. Knowledge is our only way "OUT". It it is the real source of true equality and fairness...and if we need to BUY it...we are going back to the dark ages...where the society cultivated the extremes of haves and have nots.
We got rid of that kind of economic and educational disequilibrium a few decades ago. We don't wish to rebuild it. We wish to improve and better our PUBLIC education system...not discredit and dismantle it.
Again, we are a quasi colony...and our "elites", in collusion with our "invaders" we'll decide our fate...UNLESS...we take firmer stand.
Ahmed.ibn.Fahalan wrote:Mislim da se Zlata malo zanijela..prije nasekirala..pa joj je post onako malo agresivan i mislim da nije u redu da napada ovog frajera kao sad on kriv. Ali to ne mijenja činjenicu, po mom mišljenju, da većina ovoga što ona kaže ima mjesta.
Ja sam imao priliku da upoznam dosta Turaka, na turskom Kipru, u Njemačkoj i zajednička nit svih njihovih izlaganja vezanih za Bosnu je da smo mi fin, druželjubiv narod itd..da mi se ponekad činilo kao da pričaju o kokeršpanijelima a ne o ljudima..ali kod turske omladine se još prave mitovi o Osmanlijama..recimo jedan od najpopularnijih je taj da oni misle da na svijetu ima 700 miliona Turaka?? kad sam ih pitao odkud vas toliko oni su počeli da mi nabrajaju od Turkmenistana, Tadžikistana..pa da ne nabrajam sve do Bosne?! Ja sam pokušavao da ih ubijedim da Bogami ni mi ni svi ti drugi što su ih nabrojali sebe ne smatraju Turcima..al đaba.
Drugi primjer o našoj ne baš tako prijateljskoj vezi sam našao u nekim starim knjigama o i iz tog perioda..koji da napomenem nisu srpska propaganda jer su ih pisali naši ljudi..u kojima se detaljno opisuju situacije iz svakodnevnog života u tadašnjoj Bosni i primjerima gdje su Turci više cijenili i poštovali kršćane nego muslimane..čak sam u jednoj od tih knjiga pronašao podatak da su nas Turci prozvali Poturicama a ne Srbi..e sad sve ovo može da bude neka fatamorgana ali stoji činjenica da kad god smo tražili ustupke iz Carigrada sve što smo dobili jesu bili Omer paše Latasi i slični đelati..ovo niko od vas ne može da pobije.
I na kraju još samo jedan primjer, gdje se slažem sa Zlatom, je činjenica da su nas u ovom ratu više pomogli Iranci, Saudijci, Kuvajćani i dr. nego Turci..a za dva naroda koja se, barem deklarativno, izjašnjavaju kao izuzetno prijateljski..to je po mom mišljenju sramota. Sa srbima su se borili Grci, Bugari, Ukrajinci, Rumuni, Rusi..itd a mi smo kao ispomoč dobili šaku fanatika sa drugog kraja svijeta koji..da budemo realni..bi se i jesu se borili svugdje gdje se može ubiti kršćanin, znači nije ih interesovala baš pretjerano naša politička situacija..Turci su ispali prave p. i pokazali su nam koliko ih interesujemo mi i naša patnja. Iranci su beton..armirani beton..i ako ima ijedan narod na svijetu koji nam je bezrezervno pomogao, to su oni.
zlata wrote:Dear Istanbul
I get so PISSED off when I see the beautiful mosques and palaces of Istanbul.
I can't stop thinking of all THE MONEY and WEALTH that was taken out of Bosnia for the glory of the Ottomans.
Meanwhile...in Bosnia...in many places people built wooden mosques. That's all they could afford, after paying taxes to the sultans.
While I truly appreciate your interest in Bosnia and Bosnian people....REMEMBER....
TURKS CONQUERED US. KILLED OUR KING. USED US FOR 400 YEARS....AND THEN DUMPED US....left us alone....to struggle ALONE, with our rabid neighbours.
We don't need more RETURNING TURKS. We need more Bosnians...less Serbs, less Croats, fewer "Bosniaks" and sentimental Ottoman progeny...crying for the "old times", when "they" were beys, aghas, and pashas.
We don't want a neo-Turkish Bosnia of a privileged FEW. We want an equalitarian, independent Bosnia, for all the Bosnian people
Personally...I am shocked....and a little bit disgusted...that you are coming to Bosnia...AFTER ALL THESE YEARS...only to help open a PRIVATE UNIVERSITY.
Why don't you help improve...BOSNIA'S PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS that we already have? Otherwise...your role in our society, will be that of an INTELLECTUAL MERCENARY.
zlata je zlato
koji klaun
Evropa je ujedinjena velesila koja je pod istu zastavu okupila nekadasnje visevjekovne neprijatelje...
