Forum Klix.ba

sinuhe wrote:

Gojeni H wrote:Imam visoko misljenje o pojedinim vojskovodjama njemacke vojske.
Takodje, pojedine operacije Brandenburgera su definitivno osnovno stivo svih specijalnih i obavjestajnih snaga svijeta, jer su bili pioniri u mnogim stvarima koje se uzimaju kao klasicne operacije danas.

Nijemci su nam od osovinskih sila najpoznatiji, bili su nam blizu, u Evropi.
Ako bih ipak trebao da biram, Japan je Osovina osovinskih sila. Nijedna japanska formacija se nije ni priblizno predala u brojevima kao na njemackoj strani. Bolje receno, japanski zarobljenik je bio izuzetak.
Da je njihov fanatizam bio barem malo umjereniji, a da Ameri nisu imali atomsku, rat bi trajao ipak malo duze nego sto jeste.

Japanci nisu imali nista drugo nego taj fanatizam. Naoruzanje im je bilo nikakvo.

sumirprimus wrote:Nego ajmo malo o realnostima,da nije bilo saveznika ne bi iblo ni ruskog prodora?!?koje godine?
Nema dalje,vidis drug moj tu je nas glavni problem,svako ko procita koju stranicu bilo cega misli da je eksperti da moze drugima solit pamet...
Vidi se da si nacitan,al opet nedovoljno da bi solio bas svima pamet...Djabe ti i vod amerikanacA njemaca i partizana...
kad konstantno pokusavas da ispadnes pametnijim no sto jesi...
Provlaljujes se ko riža,jos od besmislenih ideja,tvog nakog druga natovca,koa ti se cinila regularnom o zauzimanju ozrena zarad rasterecivanja fronta i ljudstva... n
o deblokadi sarajva da ne pricam
i onda dodjemo do ww2,ghdje ti nekom imas petlju reci da je povrsan ejr si procito 2 seminarska rada i razgovarao sa par penzica.pa jebem ti dokle ide nasa drskost,prvaci sviejta smo u tome...
šbb kbb pitajte feldmaršala taktikusa,pokupi onog klavikulu i sviejt je vaš

Gojeni H wrote:Imam visoko misljenje o pojedinim vojskovodjama njemacke vojske.
Takodje, pojedine operacije Brandenburgera su definitivno osnovno stivo svih specijalnih i obavjestajnih snaga svijeta, jer su bili pioniri u mnogim stvarima koje se uzimaju kao klasicne operacije danas.

Nijemci su nam od osovinskih sila najpoznatiji, bili su nam blizu, u Evropi.
Ako bih ipak trebao da biram, Japan je Osovina osovinskih sila. Nijedna japanska formacija se nije ni priblizno predala u brojevima kao na njemackoj strani. Bolje receno, japanski zarobljenik je bio izuzetak.
Da je njihov fanatizam bio barem malo umjereniji, a da Ameri nisu imali atomsku, rat bi trajao ipak malo duze nego sto jeste.

The Japanese Army

Any study of the Japanese Army in World War Two, even as cursory an assessment as this, is inevitably influenced by the atrocities carried out under the flag of the Rising Sun. Mention of Wehrmacht complicity in Nazi crimes is still a very raw subject for some in Europe and the debate continues decades after the event. The Japanese Army had no equivalent of an SS to absorb much of the blame, exonerating the common soldier from guilt. The crimes committed colour recollection of the period to the detriment of any examination of such mundane matters as tactics and I cannot write these pages without adding my unsolicited and completely personal comments.

There is one striking difference between the accounts of British, American and Commonwealth soldiers who fought the Germans and those who fought the Japanese. In the West, it is fair to say there was no underlying hatred of the Germans by the average soldier. There were of course thousands of exceptions to this generalisation. Many soldiers were of a particular descent which meant they had family under Nazi occupation in Europe. Others had developed personal vendettas to be settled after suffering the loss of comrades and loved ones. But for the most part, once the ordinary German soldier surrendered to the ordinary Allied soldier in the West, both were surprised to find they actually got on. The same cannot be said of the men serving in the Far East or Pacific.

There is a distasteful thread of racism which runs through the conflict in the East, only to be found at the same intensity in the Russo-German conflict in the West. Likewise, it ran through both opposing sides. The Western Allies were guilty of a total disregard for the emergence of Japan as a military power. That was partly based on glib racial assumptions that those of a different colour were incapable of achieving the same goals. Once it became clear that the Japanese were more than capable combatants, on land, at sea and in the air, that contempt turned to hatred. The obvious physical differences between the Asian and Caucasian man provided a field day for the propagandists. It was difficult to vilify the Germans in quite the same way, particularly in America. A great many loyal citizens who fought and died for the Colours against the Germans were themselves of German origin. There was a conscious effort not to alienate them, or the equally proud Italian population who perhaps could truly feel they were liberating their Motherland from tyranny.

For the Japanese immigrant though, there was less respect. Japanese did serve with distinction in the US Army, providing I think at least one Infantry Regiment, but it could not stop the demonisation of the Japanese Army in the eyes of the West. And yet the greatest contributing factor to this view was the actions of the Japanese Army itself.

If the West were guilty of underrating the Japanese military because of their race, then the same must be said in return for the Japanese opinion of the West. Japan had a long, ingrained history of isolationism. That trade and foreign influence was forced on them by gunboats was never quite forgotten. In late 1941 the Western powers in the Pacific and Far East looked decidedly shaky. The opinion was that the soft European and American soldiers would provide only a minor obstacle to Japanese expansionism. To their credit, they provided more than that, but the distance from their various homelands meant that, inevitably, they could not sustain the struggle. And that was when the true horror began.

There are many accounts of German soldiers firing to their last round, then putting hands up and surrendering to the same men they were trying to kill only moments before. The assumption was they had done their duty and, no longer being able to resist the advance, could surrender with honour. This was not a concept understood by the Japanese. In their eyes, duty meant not simply putting up a fight and then stopping when the ammunition ran out. It meant dying for their country, their Emperor. All soldiers accept death as a likely consequence of their service, but the Japanese system actually embraced the idea to the extent that not dying was a dishonour. It was a completely alien notion to the Allied soldiers who marched into captivity. Too late, they realised that not only did the Japanese expect their own men to die before capture, they also expected their enemies to as well. That they had surrendered meant they were not be treated as soldiers. It meant they were not to be treated as human beings.

The torturous existence inflicted upon those soldiers and civilians made prisoners of the Empire beggars belief. In the West, it is all too easy to dwell upon the misery of captives of European origin. The reality was it was a contempt meted out to any and all non-Japanese who fell within their dominion. Few Westerners will admit to the fact they have little knowledge of the differences between Japanese, Chinese and Koreans, even more so sixty years ago. But racial tensions were equally manifest in the war on the Chinese mainland where at least as many Chinese died against Japan as Soviet citizens died against Germany.

The confluence of these factors meant the war against Japan was prosecuted with a far more virulent hatred of the foe than the war against Germany. Everything the people heard convinced them the Japanese were somehow set apart. The willingness to lay down ones life was applauded among Allied soldiers, yet in the Japanese it was portrayed as pathological fanaticism. The degradation inflicted upon captives was given as proof positive of inferiority, yet only a fraction of the Russian and German soldiers captured fit and well on the Eastern Front were to see home again. There was an almost palpable wish to wipe them off the face of the Earth. Anyone who has seen the much maligned Operation Burma may recall a scene in which that exact view is expressed.

On the 6th of August, 1945, that desire was in small part brought to being. In an instant tens of thousands of men, women and children were reduced to ash or condemned to a slow, lingering death from burns or radiation sickness. It made the firebombing of Japan's wooden cities seem like child's play by comparison and all it took was one plane and one bomb. Three days later, the unthinkable happened again. Six days later, the War was finally over.

The casualties endured by the Commonwealth forces in the Far East and the US Marines in the Pacific convinced the Allies that the final assault on the Home Islands would lead to an unprecedented slaughter. The kamikaze attacks had grown from a handful of volunteers to conscript formations whose sole duty was to die in flames. The scales were weighed, and the bombs were dropped. That two such events were needed to persuade the Japanese Government to surrender is almost proof enough of the validity of Allied fears. Over 1,200,000 Japanese soldiers, sailors and airmen died during the conflict, along with a further 672,000 civilians at home. Had the ground war been carried to the islands of Japan itself, these figures would have risen beyond belief.

Yet perhaps the only way that Japan could pay for its atrocities in the eyes of the world was to itself suffer an unprecedented horror. I doubt those who perished in or after those apocalyptical moments would agree, but finally getting what they had wished for and seeing its unspeakable results purged a good deal of the hatred in the West. And for the Japanese, having the same random brutality visited upon their homeland as they had brought to so many others finally allowed them to move out of their past and into the 'family of nations' envisioned before the Cold War descended.

sumirprimus wrote: sad si i vidovita djemila pa znas oklen ja sta crpim???
jeste u pravu si stručnjak,veliš pričali ti
stručnjak ti si taj koji zna štošta,recimo da ruskog prodora ne bi iblo da nije bilo saveznika,ti si taj koji optužuje druge da su površni a lupetaš ko maksim kako rusa u srbiji bilo nije...pardon jugoslaviji...
da ne idem dalje,pričali ti veliš i za ozren i sarajvo???kako ono, bilo bi nAM BOLJE I POVOLJNIJE,ma biži bolan nemoj zezat
kao neko ko se predstavlja za inteligentnog momka i ja sam za to da više ne palamudiš sa mnom

Cyrax wrote:Japosi su isli da uniste nosace aviona na foru (Pearl Harbor kako su oni zamislili) sto bi im dalo dobre sanse ne da pobijede ali da izoluju USA od istoka.
Posto je vec to tema sta mislite da su uspjeli da potamane sve nosace sa posadama?
Mislim da ih do Indije i Australije ne bi niko mogao zaustaviti.

Sto im se tice naoruzanja pjesadijsko i oklop su im presmijesni ali ne zato sto su "zaostali" nego je primat bila mornarica pa avijacija i na kraju kopnena vojska. Ima i to svoje zasto naravno.

sumirprimus wrote: sad si i vidovita djemila pa znas oklen ja sta crpim???
jeste u pravu si stručnjak,veliš pričali ti
stručnjak ti si taj koji zna štošta,recimo da ruskog prodora ne bi iblo da nije bilo saveznika,ti si taj koji optužuje druge da su površni a lupetaš ko maksim kako rusa u srbiji bilo nije...pardon jugoslaviji...
da ne idem dalje,pričali ti veliš i za ozren i sarajvo???kako ono, bilo bi nAM BOLJE I POVOLJNIJE,ma biži bolan nemoj zezat
kao neko ko se predstavlja za inteligentnog momka i ja sam za to da više ne palamudiš sa mnom

sumirprimus wrote:OK ,što je najgore u većini slučajeva se i slažem sa njegovim pisanjem,al eto...
ono PO ŽIVCE površno i histori odradiše svoje...
taktikus ,nema ljutnje?

karanana wrote:gledam ovu sovjetsku oluju na historiju pa mi jedno pitanje pade na pamet:
sad gledam kad su rusi krenuli na shvabe i udaraju na rumuniju da uzmu naftna polja, i onda im je plan da idu preko madjarske na austriju pa dalje na njemacku.
ok, znam da je jedan dio ruskih snaga ucestvovao u ciscenju vojvodine i oslobadjanju beograda, ali generalno gledajuci oni nikada nisu planirali da masovnije udju s vojskom u jugoslaviju nego su i nakon ulaska u beograd poprilicno brzo i otisli.
zasto je to bilo tako? zasto nisu tada pokrili i jugoslaviju? je li zato sto su jugoslovenski partizani bili jaka vojska i drzali stvari u svojim rukama pa su procijenili da crvena armija nije potrebna i da ce kasnije jugoslavija ionako potpasti pod utjecaj rusije odnosno sssr-a?

i na koji nacin su sovjeti nagovoreni da napuste bec i austriju?

iamia wrote:Tacticus,
NOVJ je bila smijesna vojna formacija. Nikad nije prestavljala prijetnju nacistima, a da o Rusima I ne pricamo.
Poslije Kurska crvena armija je mljela sve sto je pipnula.
Gledam ovu Sovjetsku Oluju na History channel i ne mogu se nacuditi koliko su nijemci takticki i vojno inferiorni bili.
Samo potvrdjuje moje sumnje da njemacki narod jednostavno nije nikad bio sposoban izvojevati ratnu pobjedu.
Kad god je trebalo u siruaciji stani-pani ukopaj se i bori se do zadnjeg , oni su se razbjezali poslije par sedmica.
Ljudi jednostavno se nisu znali boriti kad nisu imali situaciju pod kontrolom.

Set against the Yugoslav Partisans was German General Alexander Löhr of Army Group E (Heeresgruppe E). This Army Group had seven army corps (the XV Mountain, XV Cossack, XXI Mountain, XXXIV, LXIX, and LXXXXVII). These corps included seventeen weakened divisions (1st Cossack, 2nd Cossack, 7th SS, 11th Luftwaffe Field, 22nd, 41st, 104th, 117th, 138th, 181st, 188th, 237th, 297th, 369th Croat, 373rd Croat, 392nd Croat and the 14th SS Ukrainian Division). In addition to the seven corps, the Axis had remnant naval and Luftwaffe forces

After the September advance through Romania and Bulgaria, in October 1944 Red Army together with Yugoslav forces took Belgrade, central communication node of the Balkans. Due to activity of Yugoslav partisans,[4] combined Yugoslav-Allies operation Ratweek, and pressure of Bulgarian Army, Germans failed to prevent this with deployment of strong Army Group E troops from Greece. Red Army decided to exploit this delay of Army Group E forces and to continue advancement with 3rd Ukrainian Front from Belgrade to south-west Hungary. The aim of the combined Soviet-Yugoslav forces advancement through Syrmia was to separate and protect this main attack in Hungary from the lateral pressure of the Army Group E from the south.

From September 1944 to January 1945, German Army Group E pushed its way through Macedonia, Kosovo, Sanjak and Bosnia, and at the time found itself vitally dependent of the sole available escape route communication Sarajevo - Slavonski Brod. For this reason, it was of vital significance for Germans to defend the zone of Slavonski Brod, threatened with Soviet-Yugoslav advancement through Syrmia. To prevent cutting off of Army Group E forces, German South-east command prepared seven successive fortified defense lines between Danube and Sava river from Ruma to Vinkovci. The Syrmian Front campaign consisted of Yugoslav attempts to break through and German struggle to defend these lines of defense.
Casualties and losses
Democratic Federal Yugoslavia 13,500+ killed
(including Italian partisans 163 killed)
Soviet Union 1,100 killed
630 killed Total 30,000 killed
Asixs
Total 30,000 killed

Tacticus wrote: ... reci da NOVJ je smijurija, pa malo je reci da je smjesno

sinuhe wrote:Jugoslovenskoj armiji je dato da drzi sremski front koji se onda rasuo sam od sebe tek 15 aprila kad je CA vec osvojila npr Bec a Bugari hrvatski Cakovec.

Lajavikrelac wrote:

sinuhe wrote:Jugoslovenskoj armiji je dato da drzi sremski front koji se onda rasuo sam od sebe tek 15 aprila kad je CA vec osvojila npr Bec a Bugari hrvatski Cakovec.

Jao Bugari i oslobođenje pljačkaši da ih se Atila postidi , a formiranje Sremskog fronta za JA je bio blagi užas!
NOVJ je bila vojska gerilskog principa doktrine, a nametnuli su joj rusku frontovsku formaciju na koju nisu bili naviknuti tako da su gubitci bili ogromni. Rusi su to mogli da priušte, mi nažalost ne...
Ko misli da su Sutjesku,Neretvu, Kozaru i ostale velike bitke vodili Marsovci bajke su na drugom spratu....