Izrael - Palestina

[digger]

Ja slabo vidim da tamo ima svijeta kojem je dosta ovoga. Nesto im se desi, urlicu i umjesto da optuze fasisticku politiku koje vode obadvije strane, oni odma optuze "protivnicku naciju". Sorry, al jeb´te se.

Ima, i te kako ima. Mislis njima drago sto moraju pancirku nabacit, da bi iz kuce izasli? Jest al' u zutom.

Utisak, koji mi sticemo preko ekrana, sumnjam da nam to daje realnu sliku. Ekstremisti, i sa jedne a i sa druge strane, oni su interesanti za TV kamere i za breaking news izvjestaje. Ko neka vijest, prikazat Izraelce i Palestince sto se bogu mole za mir. Imala sam priliku razgovat i sa jednima i sa drugima - vjeruj, da im je puna kapa, predugo ovo traje.

Sve gornje vjerovatno stoji. A kada se generacije zatruju, rjesenja su sve dalja i rijedja. Ili ih vise nema.

[danas]

Ja slabo vidim da tamo ima svijeta kojem je dosta ovoga. Nesto im se desi, urlicu i umjesto da optuze fasisticku politiku koje vode obadvije strane, oni odma optuze "protivnicku naciju". Sorry, al jeb´te se.

Ima, i te kako ima. Mislis njima drago sto moraju pancirku nabacit, da bi iz kuce izasli? Jest al' u zutom.

Utisak, koji mi sticemo preko ekrana, sumnjam da nam to daje realnu sliku. Ekstremisti, i sa jedne a i sa druge strane, oni su interesanti za TV kamere i za breaking news izvjestaje. Ko neka vijest, prikazat Izraelce i Palestince sto se bogu mole za mir. Imala sam priliku razgovat i sa jednima i sa drugima - vjeruj, da im je puna kapa, predugo ovo traje.

Sve gornje vjerovatno stoji. A kada se generacije zatruju, rjesenja su sve dalja i rijedja. Ili ih vise nema.

rjesenja ima, ali ne odgovara nekima. pogotovo onima sto nece da vrate oteto.

[Fratris]

rjesenja ima, ali ne odgovara nekima. pogotovo onima sto nece da vrate oteto.

Rjesenje ne odgovara onim od kojih bi ti "vracao" oteto. A nema veze dal ono sto je "oteto" vise postoji ili bi se vracalo nesto bolje, jelda.

Ovo me podsjeca na situaciju '78 kad Izrael i Egipat u Camp Davidu potpisuju mir. Izrael evakuira cijeli Sinajski poluotok, zajedno s doseljenicima koje je doveo, ali Egipat se buni. Egipat se buni zato sto oni traze da Izrael naselja koja su sami sagradili ostave kakva jesu i da ih ne razmontiraju. Posteno, jel.

A ne cudi me da ti padas na price o farmama i plodnim imanjima koja su Arapi navodno imali prije 1948. Kao da Palestina nije bila pustinja i mocvara prije dolaska useljenika.

[danas]

sve da je bio i kamen na kamenu, svakako nije pripadao 'useljenicima' sto su zasjeli na taj kamen.

i oni sami priznaju....

NYT
November 21, 2006
Israeli Map Says West Bank Posts Sit on Arab Land
By STEVEN ERLANGER


JERUSALEM, Nov. 20 ? An Israeli advocacy group, using maps and figures leaked from inside the government, says that 39 percent of the land held by Israeli settlements in the occupied West Bank is privately owned by Palestinians.

Israel has long asserted that it fully respects Palestinian private property in the West Bank and only takes land there legally or, for security reasons, temporarily.

If big sections of those settlements are indeed privately held Palestinian land, that is bound to create embarrassment for Israel and further complicate the already distant prospect of a negotiated peace. The data indicate that 40 percent of the land that Israel plans to keep in any future deal with the Palestinians is private.

The new claims regarding Palestinian property are said to come from the 2004 database of the Civil Administration, which controls the civilian aspects of Israel?s presence in the West Bank. Peace Now, an Israeli group that advocates Palestinian self-determination in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, plans to publish the information on Tuesday. An advance copy was made available to The New York Times.

The data ? maps that show the government?s registry of the land by category ? was given to Peace Now by someone who obtained it from an official inside the Civil Administration. The Times spoke to the person who received it from the Civil Administration official and agreed not to identify him because of the delicate nature of the material.

That person, who has frequent contact with the Civil Administration, said he and the official wanted to expose what they consider to be wide-scale violations of private Palestinian property rights by the government and settlers. The government has refused to give the material directly to Peace Now, which requested it under Israel?s freedom of information law.

Shlomo Dror, a spokesman for the Civil Administration, said he could not comment on the data without studying it.

He said there was a committee, called the blue line committee, that had been investigating these issues of land ownership for three years. ?We haven?t finished checking everything,? he said.

Mr. Dror also said that sometimes Palestinians would sell land to Israelis but be unwilling to admit to the sale publicly because they feared retribution as collaborators.

Within prominent settlements that Israel has said it plans to keep in any final border agreement, the data show, for example, that some 86.4 percent of Maale Adumim, a large Jerusalem suburb, is private; and 35.1 percent of Ariel is.

The maps indicate that beyond the private land, 5.8 percent is so-called survey land, meaning of unclear ownership, and 1.3 percent private Jewish land. The rest, about 54 percent, is considered ?state land? or has no designation, though Palestinians say that at least some of it represents agricultural land expropriated by the state.

The figures, together with detailed maps of the land distribution in every Israeli settlement in the West Bank, were put together by the Settlement Watch Project of Peace Now, led by Dror Etkes and Hagit Ofran, and has a record of careful and accurate reporting on settlement growth.

The report does not include Jerusalem, which Israel has annexed and does not consider part of the West Bank, although much of the world regards East Jerusalem as occupied. Much of the world also considers Israeli settlements on occupied land to be illegal under international law. International law requires an occupying power to protect private property, and Israel has always asserted that it does not take land without legal justification.

One case in a settlement Israel intends to keep is in Givat Zeev, barely five miles north of Jerusalem. At the southern edge is the Ayelet Hashachar synagogue. Rabah Abdellatif, a Palestinian who lives in the nearby village of Al Jib, says the land belongs to him.

Papers he has filed with the Israeli military court, which runs the West Bank, seem to favor Mr. Abdellatif. In 1999, Israeli officials confirmed, he was even granted a judgment ordering the demolition of the synagogue because it had been built without permits. But for the last seven years, the Israeli system has done little to enforce its legal judgments. The synagogue stands, and Mr. Abdellatif has no access to his land.

Ram Kovarsky, the town council secretary, said the synagogue was outside the boundaries of Givat Zeev, although there is no obvious separation. Israeli officials confirm that the land is privately owned, though they refuse to say by whom.

Mr. Abdellatif, 65, said: ?I feel stuck, angry. Why would they do that? I don?t know who to go to anymore.?

He pointed to his corduroy trousers and said, in the English he learned in Paterson, N.J., where his son is a police detective: ?These are my pants. And those are your pants. And you should not take my pants. This is mine, and that is yours! I never took anyone?s land.?

According to the Peace Now figures, 44.3 percent of Givat Zeev is on private Palestinian land.

Miri Eisin, a spokesperson for Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, said that Israeli officials would have to see the data and the maps and added that ownership is complicated and delicate. Baruch Spiegel, a reserve general who just left the Ministry of Defense and dealt with the separation barrier being built near the boundary with the West Bank, also said he would have to see the data in detail in order to judge it.

The definitions of private and state land are complicated, given different administrations of the West Bank going back to the Ottoman Empire, the British mandate, Jordan and now Israel. During the Ottoman Empire, only small areas of the West Bank were registered to specific owners, and often villagers would hold land in common to avoid taxes. The British began a more formal land registry based on land use, taxation or house ownership that continued through the Jordanian period.

Large areas of agricultural land are registered as state land; other areas were requisitioned or seized by the Israeli military after 1967 for security purposes, but such requisitions are meant to be temporary and must be renewed, and do not change the legal ownership of the land, Mr. Dror, the Civil Administration spokesman, said.

But the issue of property is one that Israeli officials are familiar with, even if the percentages here may come as a surprise and may be challenged after the publication of the report.

Asked about Israeli seizure of private Palestinian land in an interview with The Times last summer, before these figures were available, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said: ?Now I don?t deny anything, I don?t ignore anything. I?m just ready to sit down and talk. And resolve it. And resolve it in a generous manner for all sides.?

He said the 1967 war was a one of self-defense. Later, he said: ?Many things happened. Life is not frozen. Things occur. So many things happened, and as a result of this many innocent individuals on both sides suffered, were killed, lost their lives, became crippled for life, lost their family members, their loved ones, thousands of them. And also private property suffered. By the way, on all sides.?

Mr. Olmert says Israel will keep some 10 percent of the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem, possibly in a swap for land elsewhere. The area Israel intends to keep is roughly marked by the route of the unfinished separation barrier, which cuts through the West Bank and is intended, Israel says, to stop suicide bombers. Mr. Olmert, however, describes it as a putative border. Nearly 80,000 Jews live in settlements beyond the route of the barrier, but some 180,000 live in settlements within the barrier, while another 200,000 live in East Jerusalem.

But these land-ownership figures show that even in the settlements that Israel intends to keep, there will be a considerable problem of restitution that goes beyond the issue of refugee return.

Mr. Olmert was elected on a pledge to withdraw Israeli settlers living east of the barrier. But after the war with Hezbollah and with fighting ongoing in Gaza, from which Israel withdrew its settlers in the summer of 2005, his withdrawal plan has been suspended.

In March 2005, a report requested by the government found a number of illegal Israeli outposts built on private Palestinian land, and officials promised to destroy them. But only nine houses of only one outpost, Amona, were dismantled after a court case brought by Peace Now.

There is a court case pending over Migron, which began as a group of trailers on a windy hilltop around a set of cellphone antennas in May 1999 and is now a flourishing community of 50 families, said Avi Teksler, an official of the Migron council. But Migron, too, according to the data, is built on private Palestinian land.

Mr. Teksler said that the land was deserted, and that its ownership would be settled in court. Migron, where some children of noted settlement leaders live, has had ?the support of every Israeli government,? he said. ?The government has been a partner to every single move we?ve made.?

Mr. Teksler added: ?This is how the state of Israel was created. And this is all the land of Israel. We?re like the kibbutzim. The only real difference is that we?re after 1967, not before.?

But in the Palestinian village of Burqa, Youssef Moussa Abdel Raziq Nabboud, 85, says that some of the land of Migron, and the land on which Israel built a road for settlers, belongs to him and his family, who once grew wheat and beans there. He said he had tax documents from the pre-1967 authorities.

?They have the power to put the settlement there and we can do nothing,? he said. ?They have a fence around the settlement and dogs there.?

Mr. Nabboud went to the Israeli authorities with the mayor, Abu Maher, but they were told he needed an Israeli lawyer and surveyor. ?I have no money for that,? he said. What began as an outpost taking 5 acres has now taken 125, the mayor said.

Mr. Nabboud wears a traditional head covering; his grandson, Khaled, 27, wears a Yankees cap. ?The land is my inheritance,? he said. ?I feel sad I can?t go there. And angry. The army protects them.?

[Fratris]

sve da je bio i kamen na kamenu, svakako nije pripadao 'useljenicima' sto su zasjeli na taj kamen.

Dobro, kome je pripadala zemlja prije nego sto su Arapi na nju dosli?

A Arapima ako je stvarno toliko stalo do zemlje, nek cekaju 2000 godina. Pa da vidimo dal imaju strpljenja.

[SherlockHolmes]

Amebama. One imaju i najvise strpljenja.

[bedrudin]

Samo oni pomracenih umova mogu se pozivati na zemlju na kojoj su neki magloviti preci zivjeli prije 2000 godina Potpuno ludilo. Da ne govorim sto Jevreji iz Palestine, oni iz zemalja Istocne Evrope i bivseg SSSR-a, Spanije itd. i nemaju puno toga zajednickog.

Mozda nije najbolja paralela, ali je slicno kao da da dodju na ove prostore neki mocni Albanci koji su iselili u SAD i krenu u istjerivanje i brisanje svih nas, jer je ova zemlja nekada davno bila naseljena Ilirima. Ili zakuca vam neko na vrata, uperi pusku i kaze, kupi djecu i marsh napolje, ovdje su zivjeli moji preci prije 2000 godina.

Na zalost, jedino rjesenje za Palestinu je uspostava balansa sile, jer cionisti nista drugo ne priznaju, kao i odbacivanje cionizma (cak i deklaracijama UN-a izjednacen sa rasizmom) od samih Izraelaca i suocavanje sa zlocinima tog monstruoznog rezima.

[hik-meta]

svabe su krive. da nije bilo holokausta, nebi bilo ni izraela.

[zzzzz]

Ti kao znas bolje. Dakle, da se najprije sve tamo vrati na stanje 1948. Posto znas da je to nemoguce—kao i tvoji jarani iz Irana—ocito je da zelis samo status quo kako bi se i dalje guralo opravdanje za rad na "vasoj" bombi.

Zasto ne. Ako vec ganjamo sta je pravda, onda usput predlazem da se i nasa BiH vrati u 1945. Jer su nam komunjare nakon toga skoro sve na silu oduzele.

Sto je pravo, pravo je.

Kad tvoji "jarani" imaju bombu, zasto ne bi imali i moji . Sto se statusa quo tice, on najvise odgovara tvojima, da bi mogli nastaviti sa otimacinom tudje zemlje.

Dobro, kome je pripadala zemlja prije nego sto su Arapi na nju dosli?

Koliko ja znam jevreji su dosli na tu zemlju iz Egipta i danasnje Etiopije (valjda im je Bog obecao ) znaci ako cemo ici tako daleko, trebali bi se vratiti u Etiopiju

[Fratris]

Dobro, kome je pripadala zemlja prije nego sto su Arapi na nju dosli?

Koliko ja znam jevreji su dosli na tu zemlju iz Egipta i danasnje Etiopije (valjda im je Bog obecao ) znaci ako cemo ici tako daleko, trebali bi se vratiti u Etiopiju

Koliko ja znam, vjerske knjige ne sadrze bas najpreciznije povijesne podatke.

A da is i procitao ih, znao bi da su po Bibliji, Zidovi u Egiptu bili u suzanjstvu. A dovedeni su iz Izraela. Po Bibliji.

Nema niti povijsnih niti vjerskih izvora koji pokazuju da je itko drugi zivio tu prije Zidova. A zna se dobro gdje su Arapi zivjeli cirka 600-e.

[ztluhcs]

Dobro, kome je pripadala zemlja prije nego sto su Arapi na nju dosli?

Koliko ja znam jevreji su dosli na tu zemlju iz Egipta i danasnje Etiopije (valjda im je Bog obecao ) znaci ako cemo ici tako daleko, trebali bi se vratiti u Etiopiju

Koliko ja znam, vjerske knjige ne sadrze bas najpreciznije povijesne podatke.

A da is i procitao ih, znao bi da su po Bibliji, Zidovi u Egiptu bili u suzanjstvu. A dovedeni su iz Izraela. Po Bibliji.

Nema niti povijsnih niti vjerskih izvora koji pokazuju da je itko drugi zivio tu prije Zidova. A zna se dobro gdje su Arapi zivjeli cirka 600-e.

Pa ¹ta je sad glavni razlog? To ¹to su ¾ivjeli prije 2000 godina ili ¹to su zadu¾ili civilizaciju?

Da li je to posljedica (ne)ravnopravnosti civilizacije ili osjeæaja duga?

[Fratris]

Pa šta je sad glavni razlog? To što su živjeli prije 2000 godina ili što su zadužili civilizaciju?

Da li je to posljedica (ne)ravnopravnosti civilizacije ili osjećaja duga?

Zar ne moze biti i jedno i drugo?

[ztluhcs]

Pa ¹ta je sad glavni razlog? To ¹to su ¾ivjeli prije 2000 godina ili ¹to su zadu¾ili civilizaciju?

Da li je to posljedica (ne)ravnopravnosti civilizacije ili osjeæaja duga?

Zar ne moze biti i jedno i drugo?

Pa hvala, samo je trebalo crno na bijelo za ostatak forumske populacije...

[Celicna_saka]

sve da je bio i kamen na kamenu, svakako nije pripadao 'useljenicima' sto su zasjeli na taj kamen.

Dobro, kome je pripadala zemlja prije nego sto su Arapi na nju dosli?

A Arapima ako je stvarno toliko stalo do zemlje, nek cekaju 2000 godina. Pa da vidimo dal imaju strpljenja.

I onda se neko iznenadi sto cionizam uporedjuju sa nacizmom.

[Bosanac sa dna kace]

Dobro, kome je pripadala zemlja prije nego sto su Arapi na nju dosli?

Koliko ja znam jevreji su dosli na tu zemlju iz Egipta i danasnje Etiopije (valjda im je Bog obecao ) znaci ako cemo ici tako daleko, trebali bi se vratiti u Etiopiju

Koliko ja znam, vjerske knjige ne sadrze bas najpreciznije povijesne podatke.

A da is i procitao ih, znao bi da su po Bibliji, Zidovi u Egiptu bili u suzanjstvu. A dovedeni su iz Izraela. Po Bibliji.

Nema niti povijsnih niti vjerskih izvora koji pokazuju da je itko drugi zivio tu prije Zidova. A zna se dobro gdje su Arapi zivjeli cirka 600-e.

a jel?
a kako je Palestina dobila ime?
Odakle je doso Abraham po Bibliji?
Ko su bili Kanaanci?
Dje su zivjela plemena Moabita, Makabejaca, Amelika????
Protiv koga su trubile trube jerihonske?
Prije Arapa zivjela su razna semtiska krscanska plemena na tom podrucju i Grci koji su se kasnije arabizirali...

[shin]

Znaci nema vracanje na granice iz 1948? Jedino sto je preostalo Palestincima je da pakuju kofere i cekaju da neko napise vjersku knjigu na koju ce se pozivati za 2000 godina. Zamjena uloga.

[ztluhcs]

Znaci nema vracanje na granice iz 1948? Jedino sto je preostalo Palestincima je da pakuju kofere i cekaju da neko napise vjersku knjigu na koju ce se pozivati za 2000 godina. Zamjena uloga.

Pa ja se pitam gdje si ti do sad

[shin]

Ma nisam mogao ranije, al sam gorio da se javim. Necu sa slikama nista Tita mi izbliza.

[shin]

Mogli bi i Indijanci patentirati ove fasisticke ideje, zamisli sad Geronima izbije na pola Manhattana i zaokruzi teritoriju razvuce bodljikavu zicu, a kolege mu bijeli bizoni posalju neko jebacko oruzje da razguli amerikkkanose.

[Murisno1]

hebiga ja uvijek s ovim citatima

henry ford:

Poslije izbora pojedinca ili grupe, ako se ne izrazi poslušnost jevrejskoj kontroli, odmah ćemo čuti o “skandalima”,” istragama” itd. koji će poslužiti za odstranjivanje neposlušnih. Obično, ljudi koji imaju “prošlost”, su često među najposlušnijima, dok će i oni najpošteniji biti lako slomljeni raznoraznim kampanjama režiranim tako da ih iskompromituju. Široko je poznato da Jevreji veoma vješto manipulišu i američkim izborima. Na kraju, bez ozira koji kandidat je izabran, oni već imaju dovoljno materijala protiv njega da ga diskredituju, ukoliko bi on prestao da bude poslušan

U.S. Brigadni General James J. David, u jednom članku s naslovom: "Strastvena Veza sa Izraelom", je napisao:

"Postoji li i jedan kriminalni akt da Izrael može da učini, a da ne bude zaštićen od kritike Sjedinjenih Država? Ako postoji, ja to onda nisam vidjeo.
I nisam to vidjeo ni kod Bušove administracije, ni kod Klintonove i ni kod ijedne druge, prije njih. Ali kad uzmete u obzir uticaj izraelskog lobija, njegove komitete za političku akciju i više od 41 milion dolara koje su dali Kongresu i Bjeloj Kući, je li ikakvo čudo onda što je Izrael zaštićen od bilo kakve sramote”?

U nešto više od 54 godine, Izraelci su počinili stvari koje se ni jedna druga nacija nebi usudila da čini, a da prođe nekažnjeno. Čak ni ovdje, u Americi, gdje još uvijek nije kažnjivo postavljanje “društveno neprihvatljivih” pitanja, svaka javna ličnost koja to učini podvrgava se odmah, od strane Jevrejskih organizacija i njima servilnih medija, kampanji blaćenja, intimidacije kao pokušaju uništenja njihove karijere i reputacije.”

Bivši predsjednički kandidat Patrick Buchanan je rekao:

"Kongres Sjedinjenih Američkih Država je teritorija pod izraelskom okupacijom”

[bice_bice]

oteto je prokleto

a i onaj sto je oteo je proklet, ne samo u jednoj knjizi.. a oni to vrlo dobro znaju..

[Azemin]

Palestinci podrzavaju Hamas jer je im je puna kapa cekanja da al-fatah nesto sredi diplomatski kad nista ne pali.

[bice_bice]

ljudi u gazi vlada haos u bukvalnom smislu i to izmedju hamasa i fataha.

job well done se kaze.. Bagdad kao primjer.. pocelo je od kako se po svjetskim novinama pocelo pisat' tj. razlikovat izmedju Sunnita i Shiita.. ko ono ima medijsku moc? jel ono Somalija?

[shin]

Gledaj ovog haosa;

U.S. Financial Aid To Israel: Figures, Facts, and Impact

Summary

Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid
Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)

Foreign Aid Grants and Loans
$74,157,600,000

Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid)
$9,047,227,200

Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments
$1,650,000,000

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Total Benefits per Israeli
$14,630

[Kwaheri]

ma ja mislim dugo je i fatah pokushavao nesto... ocito je i kod njih doslo vrijeme za DOSTA... ubijanja, proganjanja, zidova. zica, otimacina... pa pokushavaju s hamasom...i nije mi to cudno.

ne znam, al da zivim u palestini... sumnjam da bi mi opcija bio jaser...

ali...opet, mi nad kojima je pocinjen genocid nemamo svoj mosad...