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madner wrote:Razlika je u tome sto je Izreal prepustio Hamasu da odbije rezoluciju, i sad nece imati pritisak od medjunarodne zajednice.
Jednostavno ce rec: Pa mi bi prestali, ali ti Hamasovci nece...
Po meni greska Hamasa.
De ba Madner, a sta je to medjunarodna zajednica dosad uradila dole? > Ne budi naivan, Izrael je prozivod medjunardone zajendice!
Ista prica kao i ovdje, smiju ti se dok ti ga suknu.
Samo da nema te medjunarodne zajednice, IDF bi radio jos vece pizdarije nego sada. Pritisak MZ je, ma kolko glupavo bilo, jedino sto moze zaustaviti bombardovanje.
Trebali su pristati, prekinuti bombardovanje i ako treba prekrsiti poslje.
IRNA - Projektili brigada Izudina Kisama, vojnog ogranka Islamskog pokreta otpora Palestine HAMAS-a, danas u pogodili regione na udaljenosti od 20 kilometara od Tel Aviva.
Prema izvještaju IRNE, i pored teških napora cionističkih vojnih snaga da zaustave raketiranja sa palestinske strane na okupirani palestinski teritorij, palestinski borci su danas na cionistička naselja lansirali oko 20 projektila a najvažniji napad aktivista HAMAS-a je zabilježen raketiranjem jedne izraelske vojne baze na udaljenosti od 20 kilometara od Tel Aviva. Ova činjenica je dovela do velikog straha među stanovnicima okupiranog palestinskog teritorija.
Od jutros je u cionističkim napadima na Pojas Gazze stepen šehadeta dostiglo još 30 Palestinaca, dok palestinska strana tvrdi da je do sada u reakciji na izraelske kopnene napade ubijeno oko stotinu cionističkih vojnika.
_veleposlanik wrote:iskreno i da ne odugovlacim: mislim da je Izrael kriv sto postoji! (tvoje pitanje je toliko neumjesno)... Hamas je posljedica Izraelskog postojanja, to je minimalni odgovor okupatoru i zlocincu, koji bi da mu postave crveni tepih dok protjerava stanovnistvo sa svojih ognjista...
Pitanje je bilo zapravo o načinu Hamasove borbe kojom je postigao samo krvoproliće svom narodu, ali vidim ne odgovara ti pitanje. Dobro. Tu je i palestinski Fatah također, kao i druge palestinske partije koje su također za obnovu Palestine, a nisu dobile iranske pare da se iskažu pred Palestinskim narodom prije izbora kao što je bio finansijski bio poduprt Hamas, pa tako i dobio izbore. Ali nije više ni važno. Neka na forumu ostane zabilježeno ova tvoja izjava, kao što su zabilježena i slična tvoja pisanja i prije ovog pokolja u Gazi.
U Bosni inače nije bilo domaćeg antisemitizma /tvoj je zabilježen i dosta prije ovog u Gazi/, ali ima nekih u Bosni uvoze nam svoje frustracije i probleme sa bliskog istoka i njima indoktriniraju vrbovane mladiće i djevojke. Nedavo su prijetili i slikali ljude na gay festivalu, a još puno prije toga pljuvali po Židovima.
Dole nikakva borba a niti opstanak nije moguc bez krvoprolica, nazalost daleko vise i vise na palesitinskoj strani ali to je stvarnost te jedini izlaz za opstanak palestinaca dole...
Kako kaze jedan afganistanac ameru reporteru, "vi imate satove, a mi vrijeme",
madner wrote:Razlika je u tome sto je Izreal prepustio Hamasu da odbije rezoluciju, i sad nece imati pritisak od medjunarodne zajednice.
Jednostavno ce rec: Pa mi bi prestali, ali ti Hamasovci nece...
Po meni greska Hamasa.
De ba Madner, a sta je to medjunarodna zajednica dosad uradila dole? > Ne budi naivan, Izrael je prozivod medjunardone zajendice!
Ista prica kao i ovdje, smiju ti se dok ti ga suknu.
Samo da nema te medjunarodne zajednice, IDF bi radio jos vece pizdarije nego sada. Pritisak MZ je, ma kolko glupavo bilo, jedino sto moze zaustaviti bombardovanje.
Trebali su pristati, prekinuti bombardovanje i ako treba prekrsiti poslje.
Trenutno IDF radi pizdarije koliko god moze, nemoze on vise a da nebi da moze. Vec ih je strah pa nesmiju, ne zbog medjunarodne zajednice vec ih je strah globalnog terorizma ipak 1milijarda ljudi je ljuta na ovo sto rade...
Nesmiju izazvati veci rizik, mada nece ni ovo proci kako oni misle...treba smiriti situaciju, sta ako se ovaj rat nastavi recimo sljedecu godinu dana
As Israeli troops encircle Gaza City, their commanders are faced with a painful dilemma: How far must they advance into the deadly labyrinth of slums and refugee camps where Hamas militants await with booby-trapped houses and snipers? With each passing day, Israel's war against Hamas grows riskier and more punishing, with the gains appearing to diminish compared to the spiraling costs — to Israel's moral stature, to the lives of Palestinian civilians and to the world's hopes that an ancient conflict can ever be resolved. Ideally, in a war shaped by television images, Israelis would like a tableau of surrender: grimy Hamas commanders crawling from underground bunkers with their hands up. Instead, the deaths of at least 40 civilians taking shelter at a United Nations–run school north of Gaza City are more likely to become the dominant image of the war. Israeli politicians and generals know that the total elimination of Hamas' entrenched military command could take weeks; it might be altogether impossible. The more realistic outcome is an unsatisfactory, brokered truce that leaves Hamas wounded but alive and able to regenerate — and Israel only temporarily safe from attack.
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Israel's Defense Minister, Ehud Barak, has promised a "war to the bitter end." But after 60 years of struggle to defend their existence against foreign threats and enemies within, many Israelis may be wondering, Where does that end lie? The threat posed by Hamas is only the most immediate of the many interlocking challenges facing Israel, some of which cast dark shadows over the long-term viability of a democratic Jewish state. The offensive in Gaza may degrade Hamas' ability to menace southern Israel with rocket fire, but, as with Israel's 2006 war against Hizballah, the application of force won't extinguish the militants' ideological fervor. The anti-Israeli anger swelling in the region has made it more difficult for Arab governments to join Israel in its efforts to deal with Iran, the patron of both Hamas and Hizballah and a state whose leaders have sworn to eliminate Israel and appear determined to acquire nuclear weapons. (See pictures of grief in the Middle East.)
Just as ominous for many Israelis is a ticking demographic time bomb: the likelihood that Arabs will vastly outnumber Jews in the land stretching from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean is a catastrophic prospect for a nation that defines itself by its faith. At some point, Israelis will have to choose between living with an independent Palestinian state or watching Jews become a minority in their own land.
As much as any other nation on earth, Israel is based on a dream: the aspiration to establish a home for the Jews in the birthplace of their ancestors. To a remarkable extent, that dream has been fulfilled, as Israel has grown into the most modern and democratic country in the Middle East and a dependable American ally. A strong, confident Israel is in America's interest, but so is one that can find peace with its neighbors, cooperate with the Arabs to contain common threats and, most important, reach a just and lasting solution with the Palestinians. But accomplishing all that will require Israel and its defenders to confront excruciating dilemmas: How do you make peace with those who don't seem to want it? How do you win a war when the other side believes time is on its side? And what would true security, in a hostile neighborhood populated with enemies, actually look like? As is always true in the Middle East, there are no easy answers. But it's never been more vital that Israel start looking for them.
How to Deal with Hamas
The most immediate challenge facing Israel is that posed by Hamas. Gaza's tragedy has for days been playing out on the world's TV sets. By Jan. 7, more than 700 Palestinians, many of them noncombatants, had been killed. But there's something tragic, too, in Israel's predicament: in any confrontation with its enemies, it is damned if it does and doomed if it doesn't. Across Israel's political spectrum there seems to be a consensus that Hamas' provocative rocket barrages could not go unanswered — though whether Israel's response has been proportional to the threat is, at the least, questionable.
Perhaps more threatening than the rockets themselves was the doubt they cast over Israel's vaunted power of deterrence, which is key to keeping its hostile neighbors at bay. That power was badly eroded in 2006, when Hizballah was able to withstand the Israeli onslaught, force a cease-fire and claim victory in the process. That surely emboldened Hamas, which intermittently sent rockets into southern Israel and finally prompted Israel to respond in force. As respected Israeli columnist Nahum Barnea wrote in the Hebrew daily Yedioth Ahronoth, "A country that is afraid to deal with Hamas won't be able either to deter Iran or to safeguard its interests in dealing with Syria, Egypt, Jordan and the Palestinian Authority."
But the cold reality is that eventually Israel may need to look not to "deal" with Hamas so much as do a deal with it. Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has said he doesn't intend to topple Hamas; he knows Israel can't fill the vacuum of leadership that its elimination would produce in Gaza. Neither can Mahmoud Abbas, Israel's preferred Palestinian leader, who is fading into the background in the West Bank. So Israel has said it will be satisfied if Hamas stops shooting rockets and an international force polices the Egyptian border to keep the militants from re-arming themselves with weapons smuggled through tunnels.
Hamas says it will agree to a truce if Israel retreats from Gaza and loosens the economic choke hold that has strangled the 1.5 million Palestinians who live on the sliver of land along the Mediterranean. After weeks of global outrage over the unfolding humanitarian disaster in Gaza, any mediator — France, the European Union, Turkey and Egypt are all auditioning for the role — will insist that Israel end its 18-month blockade.
What then? Like Hizballah, Hamas will declare itself victorious: not only will it have survived a direct assault by a far superior military force, but it will also have freed Gazans from Israeli tyranny. As an added bonus, any economic revival of Gaza would put money into Hamas' coffers. But Israel would gain some breathing space and force Hamas to prove it can actually govern and maintain stability in Gaza rather than heap blame entirely on Israel.
The Specter of Iran
One indirect objective of the Gaza offensive might have been to warn off Israel's other nonstate militant foe: Hizballah. While the Lebanese group has been cheering on Hamas from the sidelines, it has refrained from entering the fray. Hizballah may have a stockpile of new rockets, but Israeli generals hope Gaza will serve as a cautionary example of what would happen if it used them. This is a reassuring thought, but it remains to be tested. After all, Hizballah's rockets have only one purpose, and that is to be used against Israel.
The broader aim of the Gaza war, Israeli security experts argue, was to send a message to Hamas' sponsor, Iran. It's certainly true that the assault has broken the Iranian pipeline that delivered weapons and funds to the militants. But by killing hundreds of Palestinians, Israel may have undermined its hopes of forming common cause with moderate Sunni Arab states against the nuclear ambitions of Shi'ite Iran.
The Gaza offensive has greatly weakened Israel's few Arab allies. Moderate Arab countries that were edging closer to recognition of the Jewish state are now recoiling from what they see as the slaughter of fellow Arabs in Gaza. In Egypt, pro-Gaza protests turned into thinly veiled attacks on President Hosni Mubarak's rule, which has helped maintain the blockade of Gaza. The pressure may force Mubarak to support a truce that entails opening the Egypt-Gaza border as Hamas demands, but he is unlikely to soften his position on the Palestinian group that maintains links with Egyptian Islamists as well as the Iranian regime.
But how far Arab states will be willing to go now to make peace with Israel is unclear. The Saudi-sponsored Arab Peace Plan, which offered Israel peace with 22 Arab countries if it withdrew to its 1967 borders, will remain on the table for Israel's new PM to consider. Even Syria, a prime supporter of Hamas, spent part of 2008 in indirect peace talks with Israel mediated by Turkey. But Syria has broken off its talks for now, destroying any chance that Damascus, on behalf of Israel, might put pressure on the exiled Hamas leaders residing there.
Confronting the Danger Within
Even in a dangerous neighborhood, it is possible to imagine that, secure in its military power, Israel could continue for years in a state of neither all-out war nor true peace, always willing to fight bitter but limited conflicts of the kind it did in Lebanon and Gaza. But military might would be useless against the threat that looms within its borders. Israel's population of 7.1 million is today divided into 5.4 million Jews and 1.6 million Arabs. But if you include Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank, they may already have a slender majority; and given their higher birthrate, the gap will widen quickly. This tectonic shift in demographics is what scared even hawkish Israelis like former Prime Minister Ariel Sharon into abandoning the biblical dreams of a Greater Israel stretching all the way from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean. As Olmert recently warned, "If we are determined to preserve the Jewish and democratic character of the state of Israel, we must inevitably relinquish, with great pain, parts of our homeland." In other words, if Israelis cling to the West Bank and Gaza, as many religious Zionists insist, Jews will find themselves a shrinking minority in their own state.
Not only would Israel cease to be a Jewish state, it would no longer be a democratic one either, unless Arabs are given a fair share of power. A few bold Arab intellectuals are saying Palestinians should abandon the idea of a two-state solution and just wait until they outnumber the Jews. That would take decades, and it may rest more on wishful thinking by Palestinians than a real calculation of political reality. But the population shift underscores a plain fact: for Israel, the status quo won't be good enough for much longer.
A Road Map for Survival
The path to a workable peace, one with a Palestinian state alongside Israel and both with internationally recognized borders, has long been well known. A succession of Israeli and Palestinian leaders have been reluctant to take it. Israelis have doubted that they had a partner who could deliver them peace; aside from being plagued by disunity, the Palestinians have been unwilling to modify their demands that Palestinian refugees be allowed to return to their ancient homes inside Israel, which Israel will never accept. With a general election looming in Israel — polls suggest that the hawkish Benjamin Netanyahu is likely to become the next Prime Minister — there is an opportunity to start talking again.
Israel's leaders need to recognize that if Hamas cannot be beaten militarily, then it must be engaged politically. That means accepting the idea of dealing with some kind of Palestinian unity government that includes Hamas. A coalition between Hamas and Abbas is essential for the future of a Palestinian state and for moderating Hamas' extremism. Hamas, which 18 months ago chased Abbas' men from Gaza, says it will pair up with Abbas if he, along with the international community, recognizes that the Islamic militants legitimately came to power in the January 2006 elections. Israelis rightly view such claims with skepticism, and yet all Palestinians and their Arab backers reject the current situation, where the meager land set aside for a future state is chopped into two, Gaza and the West Bank, ruled by rivals.
A new Administration in Washington has a chance to be both supportive of Israel and honest with it. Over the past three years, many Israelis have told me that President George W. Bush was too good a friend of theirs. He gave Israelis all they wanted but didn't rein them in when they needed it. Israel eventually will have to pull back to the 1967 borders and dismantle many of the settlements on the Palestinian side, no matter how loudly its ultra-religious parties protest. Only then will the Palestinians and the other Arab states agree to a durable peace. It's as simple as that. But for 60 years, in the Holy Land, there has been a yawning gap between what was simple and what could be achieved.
— With reporting by Jamil Hamad / Ramallah; Aaron J. Klein / Gaza border; and Scott MacLeod / Cairo
Madame de Pompadour wrote:
De ba Madner, a sta je to medjunarodna zajednica dosad uradila dole? > Ne budi naivan, Izrael je prozivod medjunardone zajendice!
Ista prica kao i ovdje, smiju ti se dok ti ga suknu.
Samo da nema te medjunarodne zajednice, IDF bi radio jos vece pizdarije nego sada. Pritisak MZ je, ma kolko glupavo bilo, jedino sto moze zaustaviti bombardovanje.
Trebali su pristati, prekinuti bombardovanje i ako treba prekrsiti poslje.
Trenutno IDF radi pizdarije koliko god moze, nemoze on vise a da nebi da moze. Vec ih je strah pa nesmiju, ne zbog medjunarodne zajednice vec ih je strah globalnog terorizma ipak 1milijarda ljudi je ljuta na ovo sto rade...
Nesmiju izazvati veci rizik, mada nece ni ovo proci kako oni misle...treba smiriti situaciju, sta ako se ovaj rat nastavi recimo sljedecu godinu dana
Koje milijarde? Pa ti Arapi okolo su njihovi saveznici ispod stola, jer se boje uticaja Irana. Vamo kazu nemojte ih, a na terenu zatvore granice.
Zaboli ih dzon za terorizam, to je na kraju krajeva i njihov nacin borbe. Evo je cisto zastrasivanje.
Ono sto ih je strah jeste da ce Amerikanci vidjet sta se deseva i da ce izgubit njihovu podrsku.
jOFLA wrote:
U Bosni inače nije bilo domaćeg antisemitizma /tvoj je zabilježen i dosta prije ovog u Gazi/, ali ima nekih u Bosni uvoze nam svoje frustracije i probleme sa bliskog istoka i njima indoktriniraju vrbovane mladiće i djevojke. Nedavo su prijetili i slikali ljude na gay festivalu, a još puno prije toga pljuvali po Židovima.
zabiljezen sam ja davno, nije nikakav problem. slutim da cu, kada budem isao na odmor u Bosnu, imati kojekakvih problema pri ulazu, kao sto sam i prije... znam da cionisticki lobi dobro djeluje i kod nas, znam kako i zasto a ustvari jos nista ne znam ...
i prije nego krenes razgovarati samnom, slijedeci put nauci sta je semitizam, a sta antisemitizam. ne pali vise cionisticka retorika, cionisti pokazujete svoje pravo lice ovom uspavanom svijetu sada, a ja sam vas skuzio nesto ranije... i neces mene vidjeti medju bradonjama sto jurisaju na gayeve, niti cu pljuvati po zidovima, ali cu vas cioniste itekako osudjivati dok god sam u mogucnosti!
Last edited by _veleposlanik on 09/01/2009 16:41, edited 1 time in total.
_veleposlanik wrote:iskreno i da ne odugovlacim: mislim da je Izrael kriv sto postoji! (tvoje pitanje je toliko neumjesno)... Hamas je posljedica Izraelskog postojanja, to je minimalni odgovor okupatoru i zlocincu, koji bi da mu postave crveni tepih dok protjerava stanovnistvo sa svojih ognjista...
Pitanje je bilo zapravo o načinu Hamasove borbe kojom je postigao samo krvoproliće svom narodu, ali vidim ne odgovara ti pitanje.
... a sta im je alternativa?
Svi mi prichamo i seremo da, eto ne bi trebali tako... "teroristicki"...
"Teroristicki" je relativan termin, sto je nama terorista nekome je borac za slobodu.
_veleposlanik wrote:iskreno i da ne odugovlacim: mislim da je Izrael kriv sto postoji! (tvoje pitanje je toliko neumjesno)... Hamas je posljedica Izraelskog postojanja, to je minimalni odgovor okupatoru i zlocincu, koji bi da mu postave crveni tepih dok protjerava stanovnistvo sa svojih ognjista...
Pitanje je bilo zapravo o načinu Hamasove borbe kojom je postigao samo krvoproliće svom narodu, ali vidim ne odgovara ti pitanje.
... a sta im je alternativa?
Svi mi prichamo i seremo da, eto ne bi trebali tako... "teroristicki"...
"Teroristicki" je relativan termin, sto je nama terorista nekome je borac za slobodu.
Ne bi eto Hamas trebao tako... ali onda kako?
Imaju dva izbora - "teroristicki" ili nikako.
bravo kolega ahuseino, nadam se da ti nije problem sto te citiram (kao sto rece jeza u ledja), konacno pobjedjuemo terminolosku barijeru u komunikaciji
Drugo, ne znam po kojim kriterijima bi se Hamasu pripisivao terorizam, i to koristilo u svrhu opravdavanja i relativiziranja onoga sto je tema ovdje, a da se istovremeno terorom i drugim pravim imenima (masakr, zlocini protiv covjecnosti i humanitarnog prava, sadizam) ne nazove izraelsko vojno djelovanje zbog kojeg je i ova tema postavljena.
Iako nije tema, upusticu se dijelom u raspravu i kazacu kategoricki da Hamas nema veze sa stotinama izgubljenih nevinih ljudskih zivota ovih dana u Gazi. Ne mogu da shvatim mentalni sklop covjeka koji u Hamasu vidi stvarni uzrok ovog brutalnog sadistickog izivljavanja od strane Izraela koje za posljedicu ima teske zlocine protiv covjecnosti i masakr nad neduznim.
Hamas ce nakon ovoga sto se desilo izrasti jos jaci jer je to prije svega pokret unutar palestinskog stanovnistva koji je nastao iz ocaja palestinskog naroda zbog teske nepravde i nepodnosljivog zivota koji ih je zadesio. To nije neka organizacija koja je primarno zasnovana na organizaciji i infrastrukturi, a koje tako i tako ne mogu biti unistene, jer ce ih svaki put iznova svojim sredstvima stvoriti Iran, Sirija i mnogobrojni Arapi koji podrzavaju palestinski narod u njegovoj, u osnovi, pravednoj borbi. Hamas je prije svega ideologija, koju jos vise jacaju ovakva beskrupulozna izivljavanja njihovih ljutitih neprijatelja, koja ne mare ni za elementarnu ljudskost.
S kojim pravom ce neko, ko se nije udostojio javno nazvati ovo sto Izrael ovih dana radi pravim imenima, sutra osudjivati taj isti Hamas kada bude terorizirao izraelski narod??? To je sustinsko pitanje po meni.
Mozemo mi Hamas smatrati ovakvim ili onakvim, ali nisu teroristi sva ona nevina djeca i ljudi koji su pobijeni, kao i lijecnici, vozaci koji su htjeli da im pruze i dopreme pomoc. Svi znamo da za ta zlodjela niko nece odgovarati.
P.S.
Kosa mi se digla na glavi kad sam vidio one curice kako se potpisuju na izraelskim projektilima. Taman kad pomislim da nema gore, ono se imam priliku uvjeriti u jos gore od toga! ODVRATNO!!!
pogledajte, pa otprilike sracunajte koliko ste ucestvovali u Izraelskom barbarizmu i cionistickoj cupremaciji proteklih 60 godina. strasno je... ja zvanicno od danas prestajem trositi svaki brand sa ovog spiska, a siguran sam da je isti daleko veci... mislim da mogu zivjeti bez Nestle, Ralph Lauren-a, Danone, Estee Lauder, Timberland (da li da pronosam ove posljednje ili ih spalim, dvoumim se), i Johnsons shampona... Coca Cola i McDonalds su davno bojkotirani...
jOFLA wrote:
U Bosni inače nije bilo domaćeg antisemitizma /tvoj je zabilježen i dosta prije ovog u Gazi/, ali ima nekih u Bosni uvoze nam svoje frustracije i probleme sa bliskog istoka i njima indoktriniraju vrbovane mladiće i djevojke. Nedavo su prijetili i slikali ljude na gay festivalu, a još puno prije toga pljuvali po Židovima.
zabiljezen sam ja davno, nije nikakav problem. slutim da cu, kada budem isao na odmor u Bosnu, imati kojekakvih problema pri ulazu, kao sto sam i prije... znam da cionisticki lobi dobro djeluje i kod nas, znam kako i zasto a ustvari jos nista ne znam ...
zasto ovi iz fataha stoje mirno po strani kao da to nije njihov rat. dobro, znam za sukube s hamasom. ali ta djeca koja ginu su palestinska djeca, ti civili su palestinci, pa koji k. se onda ponasaju kao da oni nisu pripadnici palestinskog naroda i mirno gledaju dok gine njihov narod. sve zbog vlasti? znaci, kao kad bi Tuzla mirno gledala sto se gine po sarajevu, jer su vamo jedni, a tamo drugi na vlasti.
ostro i na prvu wrote:neciji povodi su drugi i imaju korjene mnogo dublje i razgranatije.
ne mrze pojedini ovdje samo izrael nego i sve sto ima veze sa sa izraelom mada to pokusavaju(neki ne)vjesto upakovati pricom:ja ne mrzim jevreje nego samo cionisticku i fasisticku drzavu izrael a kad vide davidovu zvjezdu skoci im pritisak i hoce im nesto bit.
ta mrznja se uci u kuci i prenosi temeljito za za buduce "prepreke" u zivotu .
ne, ja ne skacem i vicem na ovoj temi antisemitizam,antisemitizam jer ova tema ima smisao i cilj i dobar dio koji ucestvuju u njoj zele istinsko dobro i zele da pakao i strava palestinaca prestane .
ovi drugi, oni nisu za suzivot ,oni su za konstantu mrznju i pakao !
pa sta da ti kazem, sve dok se Izrael ne spusti na zemlju, nastavljace krsenjem UN konvencija, ljudskih prava, i svega onog za sto odgovorni u pravednom svijetu odgovaraju pred sudom. medjutim, pravda ne postoji, vec samo cionisticke pare. stoga, bojkot ce ih znatno oslabiti, iako znam da to nece predstavljati neku bitnu prepreku za sprovodjenjem genocida.
i da, ja sam "do juce" grozio se "holokaustu" i svemu sto me je oficijelna historija naucila, dakle, ne potice od "kucnog odgoja". i dalje se grozim, ali zelim da govorim otvoreno stvari onako kakve jesu. mrznja prema cionistima, hmmm...... samo zelim da im se sve sto nam chine stoljecima - vrati!
tesko je biti objektivan. ali treba se truditi. ja licno ne razumijem ljude koji imaju misljenje da je hamas kriv. ljudi se na ovom forumu stvarno trude da pokazu pravu sliku i dzaba... i dalje ima likova koji ne odustaju od svog stava iako znaju da nije ispravan. dakle, kako je hamas kriv? neka se svi oni koji se zalazu za to misljenje potrude lijepo da nam objasne i argumentuju i ja mislim da cemo zaista prihvatiti njihovo misljenje ukoliko uspiju. znaci zidovski narod nakon protjerivanja iz europe, dobije na uslugu komad(e) zemlje u palestini. ovi ih prihvate. nakon toga, pocinju se siriti na jedan grub nacin: protjerivanjem arapa s njihovih ognjista. ako uporedimo karte koje je neko postao (usput se zahvaljujem), vidjecemo o cemu je rijec. imam rezultat podijeljenu palestinsku drzavu, a jedan dio je pod stalnom kontrolom izraela. dalje, u vezi ovog sukoba, ljudi su drzani toliko vremenski period kao ovce u toru, ponekad malo pripucam na njih, da im pokazem da sam tu. e sad meni, kao palastincu, ne preostaje nista drugo nego da pokusam na bilo koji nacin vratiti izraelu. jer neko je rekao, ja bih razmislio o tome i mozda otisao odatle. prvo, ne radi se o pojedincu, drugo ja licno ne bih ostavio svoje mjesto, a znam da nemam kud. ostacu tu i braniti se koliko budem mogao. imali smo istu pricu i kod nas. stavimo se u njihovu poziciju.
"]zasto ovi iz fataha stoje mirno po strani kao da to nije njihov rat. dobro, znam za sukube s hamasom. ali ta djeca koja ginu su palestinska djeca, ti civili su palestinci, pa koji k. se onda ponasaju kao da oni nisu pripadnici palestinskog naroda i mirno gledaju dok gine njihov narod. sve zbog vlasti? znaci, kao kad bi Tuzla mirno gledala sto se gine po sarajevu, jer su vamo jedni, a tamo drugi na vlasti.
nije tacno da sute,,Mahmud Abbas je izjavio da su od sada jedinstveni i da su podjele izmedju te dvije stranke istorija,,
ostro i na prvu wrote:neciji povodi su drugi i imaju korjene mnogo dublje i razgranatije. ne mrze pojedini ovdje samo izrael nego i sve sto ima veze sa sa izraelom mada to pokusavaju(neki ne)vjesto upakovati pricom:ja ne mrzim jevreje nego samo cionisticku i fasisticku drzavu izrael a kad vide davidovu zvjezdu skoci im pritisak i hoce im nesto bit.
ta mrznja se uci u kuci i prenosi temeljito za za buduce "prepreke" u zivotu .
ne, ja ne skacem i vicem na ovoj temi antisemitizam,antisemitizam jer ova tema ima smisao i cilj i dobar dio koji ucestvuju u njoj zele istinsko dobro i zele da pakao i strava palestinaca prestane .
ovi drugi, oni nisu za suzivot ,oni su za konstantu mrznju i pakao !
Zaista srceparajuce, suza mi krenula poslije ovog procitanog posta
tesko je biti objektivan. ali treba se truditi. ja licno ne razumijem ljude koji imaju misljenje da je hamas kriv. ljudi se na ovom forumu stvarno trude da pokazu pravu sliku i dzaba... i dalje ima likova koji ne odustaju od svog stava iako znaju da nije ispravan. dakle, kako je hamas kriv? neka se svi oni koji se zalazu za to misljenje potrude lijepo da nam objasne i argumentuju i ja mislim da cemo zaista prihvatiti njihovo misljenje ukoliko uspiju. znaci zidovski narod nakon protjerivanja iz europe, dobije na uslugu komad(e) zemlje u palestini. ovi ih prihvate. nakon toga, pocinju se siriti na jedan grub nacin: protjerivanjem arapa s njihovih ognjista. ako uporedimo karte koje je neko postao (usput se zahvaljujem), vidjecemo o cemu je rijec. imam rezultat podijeljenu palestinsku drzavu, a jedan dio je pod stalnom kontrolom izraela. dalje, u vezi ovog sukoba, ljudi su drzani toliko vremenski period kao ovce u toru, ponekad malo pripucam na njih, da im pokazem da sam tu. e sad meni, kao palastincu, ne preostaje nista drugo nego da pokusam na bilo koji nacin vratiti izraelu. jer neko je rekao, ja bih razmislio o tome i mozda otisao odatle. prvo, ne radi se o pojedincu, drugo ja licno ne bih ostavio svoje mjesto, a znam da nemam kud. ostacu tu i braniti se koliko budem mogao. imali smo istu pricu i kod nas. stavimo se u njihovu poziciju.
Drago mi je da kazes da bi se potrudio da budes objektivan ali si, nazalost, u ostatku svog posta samo ponovio milion puta prezvakane poluistine koje ti onemogucuju da, stvarno, budes objektivan i razumijes sta se desava tamo. Zbog toga mi se ne da ponavljat.
A ovom gore koji kaze da su Arapi bagra, samo da velim jedno: polupo si loncice, jarane. Na ovom forumu se relativno otvoreno izkazuje mrznja prema Jevrejima, ne prema Arapima. Ne uklapash se u hor.
"The Israeli army claimed that the soldiers shot dead 11 year old Khalil in self-defense. However, a report issued by the Israeli human rights group, B’Tselem, denies the Israeli army’s claims and accuses it of lying. Its investigation confirms that the 11 year old victim was playing football with his friends when he was fatally shot. The report further proves that he did not pose any threat to the Israeli soldiers’ lives, who were positioned in a watchtower a kilometer away..."
"A grieving father Hussein Maqanen holds a poster of his two sons killed by the Israelis. Ibrahim was aged 14, and Adel was aged 17. Adel was killed whilst playing football. Israeli snipers targeted him from inside a military bunker on a hill overlooking the patch of dirt which was his football field near Khan Younis."
"16 year old Jaser recovering after being shot with an Israeli M-16 machine gun whilst playing football. The bullet left an 8 cm hole in Jaser's liver."
It's time. Long past time. The best strategy to end the increasingly bloody occupation is for Israel to become the target of the kind of global movement that put an end to apartheid in South Africa.
In July 2005 a huge coalition of Palestinian groups laid out plans to do just that. They called on "people of conscience all over the world to impose broad boycotts and implement divestment initiatives against Israel similar to those applied to South Africa in the apartheid era." The campaign Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions--BDS for short--was born.
Every day that Israel pounds Gaza brings more converts to the BDS cause, and talk of cease-fires is doing little to slow the momentum. Support is even emerging among Israeli Jews. In the midst of the assault roughly 500 Israelis, dozens of them well-known artists and scholars, sent a letter to foreign ambassadors stationed in Israel. It calls for "the adoption of immediate restrictive measures and sanctions" and draws a clear parallel with the antiapartheid struggle. "The boycott on South Africa was effective, but Israel is handled with kid gloves.... This international backing must stop."
Yet many still can't go there. The reasons are complex, emotional and understandable. And they simply aren't good enough. Economic sanctions are the most effective tools in the nonviolent arsenal. Surrendering them verges on active complicity. Here are the top four objections to the BDS strategy, followed by counterarguments.
1. Punitive measures will alienate rather than persuade Israelis. The world has tried what used to be called "constructive engagement." It has failed utterly. Since 2006 Israel has been steadily escalating its criminality: expanding settlements, launching an outrageous war against Lebanon and imposing collective punishment on Gaza through the brutal blockade. Despite this escalation, Israel has not faced punitive measures--quite the opposite. The weapons and $3 billion in annual aid that the US sends to Israel is only the beginning. Throughout this key period, Israel has enjoyed a dramatic improvement in its diplomatic, cultural and trade relations with a variety of other allies. For instance, in 2007 Israel became the first non-Latin American country to sign a free-trade deal with Mercosur. In the first nine months of 2008, Israeli exports to Canada went up 45 percent. A new trade deal with the European Union is set to double Israel's exports of processed food. And on December 8, European ministers "upgraded" the EU-Israel Association Agreement, a reward long sought by Jerusalem.
It is in this context that Israeli leaders started their latest war: confident they would face no meaningful costs. It is remarkable that over seven days of wartime trading, the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange's flagship index actually went up 10.7 percent. When carrots don't work, sticks are needed.
2. Israel is not South Africa. Of course it isn't. The relevance of the South African model is that it proves that BDS tactics can be effective when weaker measures (protests, petitions, back-room lobbying) have failed. And there are indeed deeply distressing echoes: the color-coded IDs and travel permits, the bulldozed homes and forced displacement, the settler-only roads. Ronnie Kasrils, a prominent South African politician, said that the architecture of segregation that he saw in the West Bank and Gaza in 2007 was "infinitely worse than apartheid."
3. Why single out Israel when the United States, Britain and other Western countries do the same things in Iraq and Afghanistan? Boycott is not a dogma; it is a tactic. The reason the BDS strategy should be tried against Israel is practical: in a country so small and trade-dependent, it could actually work.
4. Boycotts sever communication; we need more dialogue, not less. This one I'll answer with a personal story. For eight years, my books have been published in Israel by a commercial house called Babel. But when I published The Shock Doctrine, I wanted to respect the boycott. On the advice of BDS activists, I contacted a small publisher called Andalus. Andalus is an activist press, deeply involved in the anti-occupation movement and the only Israeli publisher devoted exclusively to translating Arabic writing into Hebrew. We drafted a contract that guarantees that all proceeds go to Andalus's work, and none to me. In other words, I am boycotting the Israeli economy but not Israelis.
Coming up with this plan required dozens of phone calls, e-mails and instant messages, stretching from Tel Aviv to Ramallah to Paris to Toronto to Gaza City. My point is this: as soon as you start implementing a boycott strategy, dialogue increases dramatically. And why wouldn't it? Building a movement requires endless communicating, as many in the antiapartheid struggle well recall. The argument that supporting boycotts will cut us off from one another is particularly specious given the array of cheap information technologies at our fingertips. We are drowning in ways to rant at one another across national boundaries. No boycott can stop us.
Just about now, many a proud Zionist is gearing up for major point-scoring: don't I know that many of those very high-tech toys come from Israeli research parks, world leaders in infotech? True enough, but not all of them. Several days into Israel's Gaza assault, Richard Ramsey, the managing director of a British telecom company, sent an e-mail to the Israeli tech firm MobileMax. "As a result of the Israeli government action in the last few days we will no longer be in a position to consider doing business with yourself or any other Israeli company."
When contacted by The Nation, Ramsey said his decision wasn't political. "We can't afford to lose any of our clients, so it was purely commercially defensive."
It was this kind of cold business calculation that led many companies to pull out of South Africa two decades ago. And it's precisely the kind of calculation that is our most realistic hope of bringing justice, so long denied, to Palestine.
Erjavec wrote:
Drago mi je da kazes da bi se potrudio da budes objektivan ali si, nazalost, u ostatku svog posta samo ponovio milion puta prezvakane poluistine koje ti onemogucuju da, stvarno, budes objektivan i razumijes sta se desava tamo. Zbog toga mi se ne da ponavljat.
rekao sam da pokusavam biti objektivan. mislim da razumijem problem, ako sam negdje rekao neistinu, molim te da me ispravis. nimalo cinicno: rado zelim saznati stvari koje ne znam.
rado_vidjen wrote:zasto ovi iz fataha stoje mirno po strani kao da to nije njihov rat. dobro, znam za sukube s hamasom. ali ta djeca koja ginu su palestinska djeca, ti civili su palestinci, pa koji k. se onda ponasaju kao da oni nisu pripadnici palestinskog naroda i mirno gledaju dok gine njihov narod. sve zbog vlasti? znaci, kao kad bi Tuzla mirno gledala sto se gine po sarajevu, jer su vamo jedni, a tamo drugi na vlasti.
arapi su bagra, i nista vise...
Pa ako su za tebe bagra ,sto se uopste javljas po pitanju Hamas-Fatah?Svi su arapi,i ta djeca sto ginu su arapi,odnosno bagra,kako ih nazivas. Ma koji klinac i ja komentarisem ovakve bljuvotine.
pogledajte samo ovaj primjer cionisticke propagande (za finansiranje familija "teroristickih zrtava" - sto bi u prevodu na nasem trebalo znaciti padobranci IDF-a)
Starbucks sponsers "bowl 4 israel", one of the fund raisers for Israel organised by Elie Haller. Her last fund raiser was a barbeque that "raised $15,000 for a paratrooper unit in the Israel Defense Forces".[a] This time the money raised - some $50,000 was to be distributed to families of "Israeli terror victims" by the Israel Emergency Solidarity Fund (OneFamily).[a] [d] Innocent enough you may think, but you'd be wrong - apparently their definition of "terror victim" includes israeli soldiers who were killed whilst they were butchering Palestinian women and children during the Jenin massacre (April 2002). For April 2002, their spending record includes the following entry:
"P. W. lost his brother S. in an anti-terror operation in Jenin April 8, 2002. The family is left with eight children, of whom P. is the first to get married. OneFamily (Israel Emergency Solidarity Fund) gave them $1000 toward the wedding."[c]
So the fund rewards the families of war criminals for a job well done!
Perverted reality - provocative advert for the Israel Emergency Solidarity Fund.
In reality its this fund that rewards war criminals - the money they raise goes to,
among others, israeli soldiers who were wounded or killed whilst they were
butchering Palestinian women and children during the Jenin massacre
Last edited by _veleposlanik on 09/01/2009 19:48, edited 1 time in total.
Erjavec wrote:
Drago mi je da kazes da bi se potrudio da budes objektivan ali si, nazalost, u ostatku svog posta samo ponovio milion puta prezvakane poluistine koje ti onemogucuju da, stvarno, budes objektivan i razumijes sta se desava tamo. Zbog toga mi se ne da ponavljat.
A ovom gore koji kaze da su Arapi bagra, samo da velim jedno: polupo si loncice, jarane. Na ovom forumu se relativno otvoreno izkazuje mrznja prema Jevrejima, ne prema Arapima. Ne uklapash se u hor.
Grijesis,ja mislim da je bas velika vecina pokazala da se protivi cionizmu,ne jevrejima.Bar sto se mene tice.Svaka cast postenim i savjesnim jevrejima koji su digli svoj glas protiv ovog masakra.Ali malo ih je.Izuzetno malo.
Erjavec wrote:
Drago mi je da kazes da bi se potrudio da budes objektivan ali si, nazalost, u ostatku svog posta samo ponovio milion puta prezvakane poluistine koje ti onemogucuju da, stvarno, budes objektivan i razumijes sta se desava tamo. Zbog toga mi se ne da ponavljat.
A ovom gore koji kaze da su Arapi bagra, samo da velim jedno: polupo si loncice, jarane. Na ovom forumu se relativno otvoreno izkazuje mrznja prema Jevrejima, ne prema Arapima. Ne uklapash se u hor.
Grijesis,ja mislim da je bas velika vecina pokazala da se protivi cionizmu,ne jevrejima.Bar sto se mene tice.Svaka cast postenim i savjesnim jevrejima koji su digli svoj glas protiv ovog masakra.Ali malo ih je.Izuzetno malo.
ja nesto ne vidjoh ovdje neku mrznju prema jevrejima! Ovdje postoji mrznja prema Fasizmu i ZLOCINU koji odredzeni broj jevrejske populacije pad kapom cionizma cini nad palestincima.... prestanite vise okretati stvari, sve je jasno...
