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¤ jelena ¤ wrote: ↑14/12/2021 08:44 Ma nema vam u tom tekstu nikakvih silovatelja....tu su samo naki momci i jedan nepoznati mladić.

¤ jelena ¤ wrote: ↑14/12/2021 08:44 Ma nema vam u tom tekstu nikakvih silovatelja....tu su samo naki momci i jedan nepoznati mladić.

Hakiz wrote: ↑13/12/2021 19:09

no_sikiriki wrote: ↑13/12/2021 18:32

Ne znam šta je ona rekla. Sporno je što neko misli da se čast gubi tako što te neko siluje. Ako iko tu "gubi" čast, to su silovatelji, a ne žrtva. Iako sasvim jasno da silovatelj nije nikad ni imao neku čast.

Ja kada sam ranije pisao da kada bi žene, društva generalno, uspjeli da silovanje se u percepciji i žrtve i društva, pa i u glavi samog silovatelja na kraju, svedu koliko je god moguće na samo fizičko nasilje, da bi se možda tako smanjila količina silovanja jer bi se poniženje koje ne samo žrtva silovanja nego kolektiv iz kojeg je žrtva (porodica, religija, mahala itd) koje sada silovanje donosi izbrisalo kao alat silovatelja, razlog da se upravo silovanjem nanese šteta zbog namjere ne da se neko fiziči povrijedi nego da se ta osoba ili njena okolina ponize, bio sam napadnut na ovoj temi.

A boldirano je upravo ono na šta sam mislio kada sam te stvari pisao. Vidiš da ćeš se na kraju sa mnom složiti. I ne samo ti

Zahvali tradiciji i religiji. I tome što se silovanje u našim glavama nije "smjestilo" u fizičko nasilje, nego je pitanje "više vrijednosti", pitanje časti. Sve dok same žene kažu da im je silovanje gore nego da ih je neko pretukao, a ako je gore nego da ih pretuče, mali je korak da je gore od same smrti, silovanje će biti pitanje časti. I eto "opravdanja" da se samoubistvom prije silovanja "sačuva čast".

Tradicija, religije i istorijske okolnosti su tu ideju i uspostavile i dok su tradicija i religija pozitivne vrijednosti, takvo mišljenje će u većoj ili manjoj mjeri i dalje živjeti u raznim kulturama i društvima, mahalama ili porodicama.

Trebalo bi se odreći "tradicionalnih vrijednosti" i religija da bi nestala pomisao da bi žena trebala da se ubije prije nego što je siluju.

Uopšte ta ideja samožrtvovanja pojedinca da se zaštiti "viša vrijednost", da li je ta vrijedost status porodice, država, ili "uspomena" na samu žrtvu je pitanje oko kojeg bi se dalo naširoko i nadugo.

Germaine Greer calls for punishment for rape to be reduced

Feminist academic tells Hay festival that ‘most rape is just lazy, careless and insensitive’

Germaine Greer has called for the lowering of punishment for rape and said society should not see it as a “spectacularly violent crime” but instead view it more as “lazy, careless and insensitive”.

She suggested that a fitting sentence for the offence might be 200 hours’ community service and perhaps an “r” tattoo on the rapist’s hand, arm or cheek.

Speaking at the Hay literary festival, the feminist academic argued that rape is rampant in society and the legal system cannot cope with it because it always comes down to the issue of consent, with the victims becoming little more than “bits of evidence”.

She said the system was not working and radical change was needed. “I want to turn the discourse about rape upside down. We are not getting anywhere approaching it down the tunnel of history,” she said.

“Most rapes don’t involve any injury whatsoever,” Greer said. “We are told that it is a sexually violent crime, an expert like Quentin Tarantino will tell us that when you use the word rape you’re talking about violence, a throwing them down... it is one of the most violent crimes in the world. Bullshit Tarantino.

“Most rape is just lazy, just careless, insensitive. Every time a man rolls over on his exhausted wife and insists on enjoying his conjugal rights he is raping her. It will never end up in a court of law.

“Instead of thinking of rape as a spectacularly violent crime, and some rapes are, think about it as non consensual … that is bad sex. Sex where there is no communication, no tenderness, no mention of love.”

Rape trials were foundering and not ending in convictions as lawyers argued over the issue of consent, she said. Why not believe the woman and lower the penalty?

“If we are going to say trust us, believe us, if we do say that our accusation should stand as evidence, then we do have to reduce the tariff for rape.”

Greer acknowledged her thesis would be controversial. “It is moments like these, I can hear the feminists screaming at me, ‘you’re trivialising rape!’

“Well I’ll tell you what … You might want to believe that the penis is a lethal weapon and that all women live in fear of that lethal weapon, well that’s bullshit. It’s not true. We don’t live in terror of the penis … A man can’t kill you with his penis.”

She said that, in cases of obviously violent rape, the courts should concentrate on the violence which should attract bigger sentences, rather than having long trials in which women are humiliated for long periods.

Greer is publishing her full argument on rape in a new book, coming out in Australia in September.

She said some might see her attitude to rape as flippant, but she reminded the silent Hay audience of her own experience when she was 18 and was raped. She was beaten repeatedly by a man telling her “say fuck me” a dozen times. Did she say it? “I don’t think I did, but maybe I did. How would that look on my mobile phone in court saying ‘fuck me’?” Greer did not make a complaint to police.

She questioned a statistic which said that 70% of rape victims had suffered post-traumatic stress disorder compared with 20% of conflict veterans.

“What the hell are you saying? Something that leaves no sign, no injury, no nothing is more damaging to a woman than seeing your best friend blown up by an IED is to a veteran?”

Society wanted women to believe that rape destroyed them, she said. “We haven’t been destroyed, we’ve been bloody annoyed is what we’ve been.”

Greer has long divided opinion, since she published her landmark work The Female Eunuch in 1970, and her Hay talk shows no sign of changing that.

She said the world was full of bad sex, that people were not talking and loving as they should. “Love-making is not a matter of an organ, it is a matter of communication and somehow we’ve got to rescue it. It is in deep trouble, heterosex.”

It is more of a crisis for women, she added. “Women love men, more than they [men] love women. We are more aware of our men, more than they are aware of us. We are more easily pressured into pleasing them, or trying to please them. We tend to love our sons more than our daughters, we hope it doesn’t show, but it nearly always does.”

Greer was pessimistic about the Harvey Weinstein case, predicting that the only winners would be lawyers. “They will break down the witness.”

Germaine Greer, (born January 29, 1939, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia), Australian-born English writer and feminist who championed the sexual freedom of women.

Niemand wrote: ↑14/12/2021 11:50 Podsjeti me ova prica na ovo..
Za neupucene (da se bolje razumijemo):

Germaine Greer, (born January 29, 1939, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia), Australian-born English writer and feminist who championed the sexual freedom of women.

Niemand wrote: ↑14/12/2021 11:50 Podsjeti me ova prica na ovo:

Germaine Greer calls for punishment for rape to be reduced
... more damaging to a woman than seeing your best friend blown up by an IED is to a veteran?”

Society wanted women to believe that rape destroyed them, she said. “We haven’t been destroyed, we’ve been bloody annoyed is what we’ve been.”
...

Eto zašto je za ženu bolje da se ubije prije silovanja, ili poslije ako je već silovana.

Društvo to nalaže. Čast.

Moramo mijenjati društvene, moralne, vrijednosne, postavke da bi barem umanjili silovanja. Riješiti ga se nećemo nikad. Kao što kazne zatvora od 100 godina, smrtna kazna, nisu učinile da djela za koja su propisane nestanu u društvima u kojima te kazne postoje, tako će i silovanje zauvijek ostati. Jedino šta možemo je dovesti ga na što manju mjeru.

A najbolji način za to je da ga učinimo "nezanimljivim". Da silovatelju, osim što mu odredimo kaznu, oduzmemo razlog silovanja, a to je zadovoljstvo proisteklo iz dominacije, iz moći nad drugom osobom. A to se može jedino promjenom "imidža" čina silovanja.

no_sikiriki wrote: ↑14/12/2021 13:00 @Niemand
Good old Germaine ima identičan stav o silovanju kao Hakiz. Ko bi rekao da je Hakiz radikalni feminist

Jedino s čim se ja mogu složiti s njom u ovom slučaju je - She said the world was full of bad sex, that people were not talking and loving as they should. “Love-making is not a matter of an organ, it is a matter of communication and somehow we’ve got to rescue it. It is in deep trouble, heterosex.”

no_sikiriki wrote: ↑14/12/2021 13:00 @Niemand
Good old Germaine ima identičan stav o silovanju kao Hakiz. Ko bi rekao da je Hakiz radikalni feminist

Jedino s čim se ja mogu složiti s njom u ovom slučaju je - She said the world was full of bad sex, that people were not talking and loving as they should. “Love-making is not a matter of an organ, it is a matter of communication and somehow we’ve got to rescue it. It is in deep trouble, heterosex.”

“Well I’ll tell you what … You might want to believe that the penis is a lethal weapon and that all women live in fear of that lethal weapon, well that’s bullshit. It’s not true. We don’t live in terror of the penis … A man can’t kill you with his penis.”

Society wanted women to believe that rape destroyed them, she said. “We haven’t been destroyed, we’ve been bloody annoyed is what we’ve been.”

Hakiz wrote: ↑14/12/2021 13:02

no_sikiriki wrote: ↑14/12/2021 13:00 @Niemand
Good old Germaine ima identičan stav o silovanju kao Hakiz. Ko bi rekao da je Hakiz radikalni feminist

Jedino s čim se ja mogu složiti s njom u ovom slučaju je - She said the world was full of bad sex, that people were not talking and loving as they should. “Love-making is not a matter of an organ, it is a matter of communication and somehow we’ve got to rescue it. It is in deep trouble, heterosex.”

Na kraju ćete shvatiti da sam u pravu i da vam želim samo najbolje.

A kao i svi geniji, na početku sam neshvaćen.

hadzinicasa wrote: ↑14/12/2021 13:15
onoga trenutka kad mu se uzme ta svrha kad kazemo - ne mozes me time ubiti, ne mozes me time unistiti, nije to najgore sto mi mozes uraditi - tog trenutka ce se posegnuti.... pa ze nekim drugim orudjem nametanja sile.

U prvom citatu to i kaze - tvoj penis nije oruzje kojim me mozes ubiti. sorry. znam da je tebi cijeli svijet , but...

no_sikiriki wrote: ↑14/12/2021 13:00 @Niemand
Good old Germaine ima identičan stav o silovanju kao Hakiz. Ko bi rekao da je Hakiz radikalni feminist

Jedino s čim se ja mogu složiti s njom u ovom slučaju je - She said the world was full of bad sex, that people were not talking and loving as they should. “Love-making is not a matter of an organ, it is a matter of communication and somehow we’ve got to rescue it. It is in deep trouble, heterosex.”

hadzinicasa wrote: ↑14/12/2021 13:15

no_sikiriki wrote: ↑14/12/2021 13:00 @Niemand
Good old Germaine ima identičan stav o silovanju kao Hakiz. Ko bi rekao da je Hakiz radikalni feminist

Jedino s čim se ja mogu složiti s njom u ovom slučaju je - She said the world was full of bad sex, that people were not talking and loving as they should. “Love-making is not a matter of an organ, it is a matter of communication and somehow we’ve got to rescue it. It is in deep trouble, heterosex.”

ma nije istina.
(sto samo govori o tome koliko je interpretacija necega od kljucne vaznosti - te se stav mase moze oblikovati ovisno o spinu odredjene situacije ili rijeci, no to nije tema)

“Well I’ll tell you what … You might want to believe that the penis is a lethal weapon and that all women live in fear of that lethal weapon, well that’s bullshit. It’s not true. We don’t live in terror of the penis … A man can’t kill you with his penis.”

Society wanted women to believe that rape destroyed them, she said. “We haven’t been destroyed, we’ve been bloody annoyed is what we’ve been.”

Ono sto ona hoce reci jeste da izlaskom iz kutije srama i obescascenja (v. gornje postove) zene kao rezultata silovanja (pominje i PTSP) samom cinu silovanja kao oruzju ponizenja zene, se oduzima ta moc. Dakle sve dok se silovanje u glavama silovatelja, u drustvu, u glavi zene smatra ultimativnim orudjem unistenja zena odnosno necim sto zeni moze nauditi vise nego sama smrt - bice u tu svrhu i koristeno.

onoga trenutka kad mu se uzme ta svrha kad kazemo - ne mozes me time ubiti, ne mozes me time unistiti, nije to najgore sto mi mozes uraditi - tog trenutka ce se posegnuti.... pa ze nekim drugim orudjem nametanja sile.

U prvom citatu to i kaze - tvoj penis nije oruzje kojim me mozes ubiti. sorry. znam da je tebi cijeli svijet , but...

no_sikiriki wrote: ↑14/12/2021 13:27

hadzinicasa wrote: ↑14/12/2021 13:15

ma nije istina.
(sto samo govori o tome koliko je interpretacija necega od kljucne vaznosti - te se stav mase moze oblikovati ovisno o spinu odredjene situacije ili rijeci, no to nije tema)



Ono sto ona hoce reci jeste da izlaskom iz kutije srama i obescascenja (v. gornje postove) zene kao rezultata silovanja (pominje i PTSP) samom cinu silovanja kao oruzju ponizenja zene, se oduzima ta moc. Dakle sve dok se silovanje u glavama silovatelja, u drustvu, u glavi zene smatra ultimativnim orudjem unistenja zena odnosno necim sto zeni moze nauditi vise nego sama smrt - bice u tu svrhu i koristeno.

onoga trenutka kad mu se uzme ta svrha kad kazemo - ne mozes me time ubiti, ne mozes me time unistiti, nije to najgore sto mi mozes uraditi - tog trenutka ce se posegnuti.... pa ze nekim drugim orudjem nametanja sile.

U prvom citatu to i kaze - tvoj penis nije oruzje kojim me mozes ubiti. sorry. znam da je tebi cijeli svijet , but...

Pa ja sam tako shvatila i Hakiza, mislim da govori upravo ono što i ona. I ja sam čitala mimo ovog teksta, i o njenom vlastitom doživljaju silovanja kad je imala 19 godina.

A za boldirano - oplakah

vjeshalica wrote: ↑14/12/2021 10:04

¤ jelena ¤ wrote: ↑14/12/2021 08:44 Ma nema vam u tom tekstu nikakvih silovatelja....tu su samo naki momci i jedan nepoznati mladić.

O cemu ti?

saint_mirad wrote: ↑14/12/2021 13:40 primarni cilj silovanja je ponziiti ženu, seksualna komponenta je sekundarna. ženu možeš silovati tupim predmetom. isto tako u muškim zatvorima kao čin poniženja siluju muškarce, a nisu u pitanju gej osobe.

Niemand wrote: ↑14/12/2021 14:04 Polako, jedno po jedno, jos malo sirenja vidika pa ce doci i to silovanje na red.

Tako smo i polako, mic po mic, od simone de beauvoir i njenog "one is not born but rather becomes a woman" nekako stigli do danasnje trans politike, pa i do tog da nemaju nekakve zene menstruaciju vec su to osobe koje menstruiraju. A zene, zene mogu zapravo imati i prostatu. I zenski penis. I sta uopste znaci taj stupidni pojam zena.

Djecije cudjenje feministica, uz tek pokoje-meni nista vise nije jasno, haman da ce se nastaviti.

dale cooper wrote: ↑14/12/2021 14:37 Što se tiče silovanja i silovatelja:

no_sikiriki wrote: ↑14/12/2021 14:27

Niemand wrote: ↑14/12/2021 14:04 Polako, jedno po jedno, jos malo sirenja vidika pa ce doci i to silovanje na red.

Tako smo i polako, mic po mic, od simone de beauvoir i njenog "one is not born but rather becomes a woman" nekako stigli do danasnje trans politike, pa i do tog da nemaju nekakve zene menstruaciju vec su to osobe koje menstruiraju. A zene, zene mogu zapravo imati i prostatu. I zenski penis. I sta uopste znaci taj stupidni pojam zena.

Djecije cudjenje feministica, uz tek pokoje-meni nista vise nije jasno, haman da ce se nastaviti.

Moraćeš malo urediti svoj stream of consciousness ako hoćeš da te iko uzima za ozbiljno u nekoj diskusiji. Ovo je forum, mi nismo u tvojoj glavi da čitamo tvoje misli i povezujemo šta ti misliš o čemu i koja je veza ovoga ili onoga sa ovim ili onim.
Već smo rekli jedno 50 puta da ovdje svako ima svoju definiciju feminizma. ALi tebe to svakako ne interesuje, so...

dale cooper wrote: ↑14/12/2021 14:37 Što se tiče silovanja i silovatelja: