Forum Klix.ba

Kikibombona wrote:

kritichar wrote: I srbi su nestali sa nekih područja u Bosni pa opet nije izvršen genocid nad njima

Oprosti prijatelju, poredjenje je vise nego glupo...

Imas li neku sliku na kojoj se vide desetine nagih srpkinja razapetih na krstovima?
Imas li neku sliku na kojoj se vide stotine srpskih civila naslaganih na kamaru?

Jos tada aparati za slikanje nisu bili ni blizu zastupljeni kao '92, pa je opet zabiljezeno na stotine slika armenske golgote...

Jesi ukucao na google images?

Tebi je potrebna edukacija ili katarza, nesto od to dvoje, nisam siguran sta....

kritichar wrote:

Bodkin wrote:
poredis neuporedivo. i turaka (ili osmanlija, kako god) je bilo na cijelm balkanu pa ih sad vise nema. i rimljana u cijeloj evropi i mongolaca na cijelom svijetu. nije to isto

hoću da vam kažem da nestanak nekog naroda sa određenog prostora ne mora značiti genocid
to što ih tu više nema, ne dokazuje NAMJERU Turske da izvrši genocid

Bodkin wrote:
to je tacno. ali ako se potrefi da je nestao narod uz masovna ubistva, onda to dokazuje namjeru.

kritichar wrote:

Bodkin wrote:
to je tacno. ali ako se potrefi da je nestao narod uz masovna ubistva, onda to dokazuje namjeru.

možda UKAZUJE, ali NE DOKAZUJE

Bodkin wrote:

kritichar wrote:

Bodkin wrote:
to je tacno. ali ako se potrefi da je nestao narod uz masovna ubistva, onda to dokazuje namjeru.

možda UKAZUJE, ali NE DOKAZUJE

e jebiga. ne znam sta tacno trazis sto bi dokazalo namjeru.

Drvosjeca iz Dejcica wrote:
Mislim da kritichar ne spori zločin, on samo kaže da je potrebna neka pravna nezavisna kvalifikacija tog zločina da bi on pravno bio genocid. Mi osobno kao individue možemo smatrati taj zločin i holokaustom prije holokausta ali pravno on to nije dok se ne dokaže. Ako smo legalisti tako je kako je.

Drvosjeca iz Dejcica wrote:
Kao što sam rekao o Armeniji iz prve ruke znam veoma malo, nikada nisam bio tamo, ali informacija koju sam dobio od prijatelja koji je prije desetak godina bio u Armeniji kao jedan od OSCE uposlenika govore sljedeće. Čovjek kaže da su Armenci veliki nacionalisti, mržnja prema Turcima je otvorena čak i kod visokoobrazovanih ljudi i kod političara. Slična jela koja imaju kao Turci, recimo kebab, uvijek naglase da je to autentično Armensko jelo...itd. Uvijek naglašavaju tu neku autentičnost, smatraju se najboljim kršćanima, smatraju da se na planini Ararat (nalazi se na grbu Armenije) zaustavila Noina arka te da su oni izvorni potomci Noa-e...itd. Meni je to tada bilo pomalo smiješno ali Armenija mi je bila tako daleko i strano da se nisam posebno zanimao za to.

Pitanje, ko je i kada bio u Armeniji od forumaša, pogotovo ovih koji su najglasniji u tvrdnjama o genocidu? Može li potvrditi ove navode ili je to samo subjektivni doživljaj jedne osobe?

Šveđanin wrote:Prva stvar: velika vecina onih koji smatraju da genocida nije bilo vam veze nemaju ni o Armencima, ni o Osmanskom carstvu, ni o geopolitickom stanju u tom dobu.
Velika vecina ljudi veze nema ni gdje se Armenija nalazi, to je negdje tamo kod Rusije, totalno neupuceni ljudi.

Razlog zasto su se debili nakupili u ovoj temi je rijec "Turska", para im oci to i iako veze nemaju sa bilo cime iz ove teme oni moraju da daju "strucnu analizu" kako genocida nije bilo.. jer valja braniti "bracu".

Podsjecate me na one sto se u julu registruju na forum, prvi post odmah na uzarenu temu da napisu ma jeste zlocina bilo, ALI ne vjerujem da je bas bilo genocida.. znate ono cuveno ali. Sve to oni uklope u 2 recenice, eksperti pravi, oni procjenili da nije bilo genocida.. A vi nastavite sa onim cuvenim ALI... valja braniti "bracu"..

Drvosjeca iz Dejcica wrote:

Bodkin wrote:
e jebiga. ne znam sta tacno trazis sto bi dokazalo namjeru.

Mislim da kritichar ne spori zločin, on samo kaže da je potrebna neka pravna nezavisna kvalifikacija tog zločina da bi on pravno bio genocid. Mi osobno kao individue možemo smatrati taj zločin i holokaustom prije holokausta ali pravno on to nije dok se ne dokaže. Ako smo legalisti tako je kako je.

Drvosjeca iz Dejcica wrote:
Mislim da kritichar ne spori zločin, on samo kaže da je potrebna neka pravna nezavisna kvalifikacija tog zločina da bi on pravno bio genocid. Mi osobno kao individue možemo smatrati taj zločin i holokaustom prije holokausta ali pravno on to nije dok se ne dokaže. Ako smo legalisti tako je kako je.

Kikibombona wrote:

Drvosjeca iz Dejcica wrote:
Mislim da kritichar ne spori zločin, on samo kaže da je potrebna neka pravna nezavisna kvalifikacija tog zločina da bi on pravno bio genocid. Mi osobno kao individue možemo smatrati taj zločin i holokaustom prije holokausta ali pravno on to nije dok se ne dokaže. Ako smo legalisti tako je kako je.

Pa to i jeste pitanje, to jeste tema.....

Sudovi su oduvijek bili i uvijek ce biti pod uticajem politike. Pravda i politika pobjednika/lidera se nekada preklope, nekada ne....

Pitanje je sta ti licno smatras?
Da li su Osmanlije 1915 djelimicno ili potpuno unistile armenski narod na jednom podrucju?

To je pitanje postavljeno tebi i svima nama na ovoj temi.

kritichar wrote: šta si sa slikom dokazao?
da je NEKO razapeo NEKOGA
da je NEKO naslagao trupla na kamaru

a šta da zaključimo kada vidimo šta su Sisi i Mubarak radili sa svojim civilima?

Kikibombona wrote:

kritichar wrote: šta si sa slikom dokazao?
da je NEKO razapeo NEKOGA
da je NEKO naslagao trupla na kamaru

a šta da zaključimo kada vidimo šta su Sisi i Mubarak radili sa svojim civilima?

Kako neko?
Kako nekoga?

Pa nisu ih naslagali Kinezi, kojih koliko znam tada nije bilo u Anadoliji, kao sto naslagani nisu bili Islandjani, kojih koliko znam tada nije bilo u Anadoliji.

Jako lose karikiras....

Isto ovako mozemo relativizovati svaki zlocin cionistickog rezima. Nema presude, nema dokaza, nema nista.... Za ubijenu djecu je kriv Hamas, za progone je kriv Hamas jer je infiltriran medju stanovnistvo i prijeti jevrejskom narodu... Za sve imaju vadionu, najmocnije sile i sudovi su na njihovoj strani. Palestinci su mali i bijedan narod kao i Armeni. Al postoji nesto sto se zove covjecnost, iskrenost, postenje... a sto ti za sada na ovoj temi nisi pokazao.

Bodkin wrote:civilizacijsko dno cinjenica da smo se doveli u situaciju da masovni zlocin nije dovljno velik nego se samo genocid pika. ono, nek nije genocid pa sta god da je.

calculator wrote:

JoseMujica wrote:relevantno kao i 10 Čekićevih genocida nad Bošnjacima

Metodološki gledano nemoguće je imputirati neki pojam u historiju prije njegova nastanka....jeste moguće ali kao kvaziargument ili ideološka (re)konstrukcija prošlosti. Priča o genocidu prije WWII i kasnije UN povelje je relativizacija genocida kao najtežeg oblika zločina, sistematskog pokušaja istrebljenja jednog naroda.

Mišljenja slična tvom su upravo relativizacija zločina nad ljudima, poput masovnih armenskih ubistava. Genocid je genocid, kad god da je izvršen, razlika je jedino u provođenju odgovornosti počinilaca zločina i pravu na njihovo procesuiranje. Definiciju genocida ne može izmjeniti niti obesmisliti datum njenog nastanka.

In 1915, leaders of the Turkish government set in motion a plan to expel and massacre Armenians living in the Ottoman Empire. Though reports vary, most sources agree that there were about 2 million Armenians in the Ottoman Empire at the time of the massacre. By the early 1920s, when the massacres and deportations finally ended, some 1.5 million of Turkey’s Armenians were dead, with many more forcibly removed from the country. Today, most historians call this event a genocide–a premeditated and systematic campaign to exterminate an entire people. However, the Turkish government does not acknowledge the enormity or scope of these events. Despite pressure from Armenians and social justice advocates throughout the world, it is still illegal in Turkey to talk about what happened to Armenians during this era.

THE ROOTS OF GENOCIDE: THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE

The Armenian people have made their home in the Caucasus region of Eurasia for some 3,000 years. For some of that time, the kingdom of Armenia was an independent entity–at the beginning of the 4th century AD, for instance, it became the first nation in the world to make Christianity its official religion–but for the most part, control of the region shifted from one empire to another. During the 15th century, Armenia was absorbed into the mighty Ottoman Empire.

The Ottoman rulers, like most of their subjects, were Muslim. They permitted religious minorities like the Armenians to maintain some autonomy, but they also subjected Armenians, who they viewed as “infidels,” to unequal and unjust treatment. Christians had to pay higher taxes than Muslims, for example, and they had very few political and legal rights.

In spite of these obstacles, the Armenian community thrived under Ottoman rule. They tended to be better educated and wealthier than their Turkish neighbors, who in turn tended to resent their success. This resentment was compounded by suspicions that the Christian Armenians would be more loyal to Christian governments (that of the Russians, for example, who shared an unstable border with Turkey) than they were to the Ottoman caliphate.

These suspicions grew more acute as the Ottoman Empire crumbled. At the end of the 19th century, the despotic Turkish Sultan Abdul Hamid II–obsessed with loyalty above all, and infuriated by the nascent Armenian campaign to win basic civil rights–declared that he would solve the “Armenian question” once and for all. “I will soon settle those Armenians,” he told a reporter in 1890. “I will give them a box on the ear which will make them…relinquish their revolutionary ambitions.”

THE FIRST ARMENIAN MASSACRE

Between 1894 and 1896, this “box on the ear” took the form of a state-sanctioned pogrom. In response to large scale protests by Armenians, Turkish military officials, soldiers and ordinary men sacked Armenian villages and cities and massacred their citizens. Hundreds of thousands of Armenians were murdered.

THE RISE OF THE YOUNG TURKS

In 1908, a new government came to power in Turkey. A group of reformers who called themselves the “Young Turks” overthrew Sultan Abdul Hamid and established a more modern constitutional government. At first, the Armenians were hopeful that they would have an equal place in this new state, but they soon learned that what the nationalistic Young Turks wanted most of all was to “Turkify” the empire. According to this way of thinking, non-Turks–and especially Christian non-Turks–were a grave threat to the new state

WORLD WAR I

In 1914, the Turks entered World War I on the side of Germany and the Austro-Hungarian Empire. (At the same time, Ottoman religious authorities declared jihad, or holy war, against all Christians except their allies.) Military leaders began to argue that the Armenians were traitors: If they thought they could win independence if the Allies were victorious, this argument went, the Armenians would be eager to fight for the enemy. As the war intensified, Armenians organized volunteer battalions to help the Russian army fight against the Turks in the Caucasus region. These events, and general Turkish suspicion of the Armenian people, led the Turkish government to push for the “removal” of the Armenians from the war zones along the Eastern Front.

GENOCIDE BEGINS

On April 24, 1915, the Armenian genocide began. That day, the Turkish government arrested and executed several hundred Armenian intellectuals. After that, ordinary Armenians were turned out of their homes and sent on death marches through the Mesopotamian desert without food or water. Frequently, the marchers were stripped naked and forced to walk under the scorching sun until they dropped dead. People who stopped to rest were shot.

At the same time, the Young Turks created a “Special Organization,” which in turn organized “killing squads” or “butcher battalions” to carry out, as one officer put it, “the liquidation of the Christian elements.” These killing squads were often made up of murderers and other ex-convicts. They drowned people in rivers, threw them off cliffs, crucified them and burned them alive. In short order, the Turkish countryside was littered with Armenian corpses.

Records show that during this “Turkification”campaign government squads also kidnapped children, converted them to Islam and gave them to Turkish families. In some places, they raped women and forced them to join Turkish “harems” or serve as slaves. Muslim families moved into the homes of deported Armenians and seized their property.

In 1922, when the genocide was over, there were just 388,000 Armenians remaining in the Ottoman Empire.

http://www.history.com/topics/armenian-genocide

http://www.armenian-genocide.org/sampledocs.html