#151 Re: sufizam izvan islama
Posted: 30/05/2018 17:00
Aldous Huxley: "Most human beings have an almost infinite capacity for taking things for granted."
Nije sigurno da je Abraham bio prvi monoteista. Veća je vjerovatnoća da je prvi monoteista bio egipatski faraon Akhenaton (Ehnaton kako ga na ovim prostorima zovemo), muž Nefretiti, otac Tutankamona.Nurudin wrote:... te njenom navodnom
utemeljitelju Abrahamu, prvom monoteisti...
Nemas potrebe izmisljati stvari, kad vec argument ti je tanak. Pitah te nesto na sta nisam dobio konkretan odgovor.dadinjo33 wrote:Onaj iz islamskog cirkularnog argumenta.kiligonzales wrote: A ko ostavi zenu i dijete u Beki ili ti ga Meki, te podize Kabu godinama kasnije? Idolopoklonik ili neko drugi? Kome se nagovjestise potomci koji ce je hodocastiti i td?
A i sam je Muhamed govorio da bi srusio Kabu da za nju, zbog bliskosti dzahilijetu, njegov narod nije toliko vezan, te da bi Muhamed napravio samo dvoja vrata, za uci i izaci. Na kraju je, ali nakon Muhameda, bila srusena i ponovo sagradjena. Za vrijeme dok je bila srusena Allah je valjda bio beskucnik.
Te Muhamedove rijeci samo govore da svojim idolopklonstvu bliskim "ashabima" iz politickih razloga nije htio uzeti njihovu omiljenu idolopoklonicku igracku.
Zato je Muhamed ostavio "dezen na prostirci" u vidu naziva mesdzidu-l-haram, tj. haram mesdzid, za prostor u kojem je Kaba.
To je bio opak vicaros.
Pusti mi se demagogije. Pisuci neistine zelis poentirati. Da ti postavim pitanje a ko su bili predislamski Arapi, kakva im je vjera bila, u sta su sve vjerovali, otkud oni tu od koji plemena i td, mogu misliti kakav bi ti odgovor bio...dadinjo33 wrote:Dobio si, samo ga nisi razumio.
U sufizmu , istoriografski fakti ili stvarnost nekog dogadjaja, uopce ne igraju bitnu ulogu .Hakiz wrote:Nije sigurno da je Abraham bio prvi monoteista. Veća je vjerovatnoća da je prvi monoteista bio egipatski faraon Akhenaton (Ehnaton kako ga na ovim prostorima zovemo), muž Nefretiti, otac Tutankamona.Nurudin wrote:... te njenom navodnom
utemeljitelju Abrahamu, prvom monoteisti...
Za njega, za razliku od podataka o Abrahamu za kojeg nije sigurno ni da je bio stvarna osoba, barem postoje birokratski, pisani podaci.
OKNurudin wrote: U sufizmu , istoriografski fakti ili stvarnost nekog dogadjaja, uopce ne igraju bitnu ulogu .
Pa ja ne znam jesi ti skonto da i ja cijelo vrijeme govorim da sufizam nije izvorno islamski. Tako da se slazemo po tom pitanju.HardcoreMX wrote:mnogo satro satre o sufizmu u islamu...a slabo gdje da se spomene Qur'an..doduse u Qur'anu se ne spominje sufizam...

korijeni sufizma su u Islamu i u krscnastvu :Nurudin wrote:Inace, kuranska prica o Hidru se uzima kod sufija kao osnova u razlikovanju serijatskog i misticnog znanja ili "gajba" . Hidr je centralni simbol te vrste znanja u sufizmu, a on sam se pojavljuje u drugim tradicijama, ne islamskim, prije i poslije pojave islama. Tako da je to samo jedan od niza dokaza o izvanislamskim korijenima sufizma, a cesto i krosnji tog stabla .
Sufism is the major expression of mysticism in Islam. While Sufism developed out of the fusion of Qur’anic ascetic tendencies and the vast fund of Christian (and other) mystical sayings present throughout the classical world, by approximately the 10th century it had become a uniquely Islamic feature. Major writers such as al-Ghazali and Ibn al-ʿArabi took this heritage and molded it both into a normative tradition for Islam as a whole (by wedding it to the Prophet Muhammad’s life experience) and, in the case of Ibn al-ʿArabi, into completely new spiritual paths. These interpretations of mysticism were critical in the vast conversion to Islam that happened during the period 1000–1800. Although other factors were involved as well, including trading by Muslims and the Islamic educational system, this conversion happened largely at the hands of the Sufis, especially holy men and healers, and thus the Muslim world is still largely Sufi or Sufi-influenced. Starting in the 19th century, however, and culminating in the mid-20th century, large numbers of Muslims abandoned Sufism, accusing it of being fundamentally anti-Islamic and even polytheistic. Today although Sufis still constitute the bulk of world Muslims, and they are visible throughout the non-Muslim world as well, their belief system is under attack as never before.
Early Asceticism and Sufism
In the process of abstaining, these Muslim ascetics, the best known of whom are Abu al-Darda’ (d. 651) and Abu Dharr al-Ghifari (d. 652), followed closely in the ascetic practices of the Christian monastics around them (and later, when in Central Asia, the example of Buddhism monks and, in India, Hindu yogis). For centuries Christian monks in the regions of Syria and Egypt had practiced very severe forms of bodily mortification and deprivation, and for these pains had acquired for themselves a high level of local social and religious prestige. In the words of Peter Brown, they had become the local holy men, looked to by the population for arbitration and miracles, and they were feared by the secular and ecclesiastical hierarchies, respectively.1 This social and religious prestige is reflected in the Qur’an, where it is said “and you will find that the closest in affection to the believers those who say ‘we are Christians.’ For among them are priests and monks and they are not arrogant” (5:82).2 Muhammad himself is said to have been close to a certain monk by the name of Bahira (or Sergius).
However, Muslim asceticism, while maintaining deprivation, did not embrace all of the elements of Christian monasticism. From a very early stage, as noted above, the chastity characteristic of monks and nuns was rejected (although some early examples do exist of Muslims castrating themselves), and the complete withdrawal from society of the anchorite lifestyle was also not accepted. Otherwise, what came to be called zuhd (asceticism) during the 7th, 8th, and 9th centuries became a popular lifestyle of a certain segment of Muslims. Even for those for whom it was not an klix lifestyle, zuhd constituted an ideal, a criterion by which to judge oneself.
ovo je interesantan dio :t was during this period (11th–12th centuries) that the process of Sufis converting people to Islam began to be a major factor. Although the ascetic literature gives examples of conversion to Islam from the early period, following al-Ghazali larger numbers of Sufis began to organize themselves into brotherhoods (tariqa). These organizations have continued to be critical in the spread of Islam to the present time, and they are most usefully compared to orders (in the Roman Catholic Church) or to denominations (in the Protestant world). Groups of mendicant Sufis (called faqirs, meaning “poor” or dervishes) began to gather at the borders of the Muslim world, in Central Asia, in West and East Africa, in India, and eventually in Southeast Asia. In each one of these regions the process of conversion was remarkably similar. Sufi holy men (following in the footsteps of Christian monks of the early period) gained the reputation of constituting a spiritual elite. They had healing and intercessory powers, and they could—and did—confront Islamic rulers and their religious intellectuals (the ʿulamā). This confrontation was often to the benefit of the Sufis, as they could position themselves as local heroes and gain converts.
This tendency toward a somewhat ecumenical outlook was common in Sufism in the Middle Ages, as one finds both Jewish and Christian Sufis in Egypt and elsewhere. Europeans, such as Louis Massignon (1883–1962), his student Henri Corbin (1903–1978), and Frithjof Schuon (1907–1998), have engaged in Sufi practices or converted to Islam themselves and have led Sufi movements. This tendency is especially strong in Europe, but it is also present in Sufi groups in the United States. Beginning with the teachings of Hazrat Inayat Khan (1882–1927), who founded an International Sufi Movement in Switzerland, and continuing on through the intellectual followers of Ibn al-ʾArabi (both in the United Kingdom at the Muhyi al-Din Ibn ʾArabi Society at Cambridge University and in France through the followers of Michel Chodkiewicz and others) and the devotees of the Haqqani Foundation (associated with the Naqshbandiyya brotherhood) Sufism has proven consistently attractive to Westerners.
Sufi primary materials exist in all major languages of the Muslim world: Arabic, Persian, Turkish, Urdu, Bengali, Gujarati, Hausa, Swahili, Wolof, Malayu, Bahasa Indonesia, and many others. One of the most unusual Sufi texts published in the recent past is William Chittick, Chinese Gleams of Sufi Light: Wang Tai-yu’s Great Learning of the Pure and Real and Liu Chih’s Displaying the Concealment of the Real Realm, which, in providing a unique Chinese interpretation of Sufism, indicates the breadth of this material
zijancer wrote:
hvala za tekst , ali treba podvuci, Muhamed je uve asketizam , jer post nije nardjene iz Kurana, plus pravila posta od mejsec dana je upravo Muhamed postavio , stoga i takav sistem asktizma , zuhd , je prilicno ekstremno postavljenkiligonzales wrote:http://dialogos.ba/2017/04/01/husein-do ... -tesavufa/
Za muslimane to je Bozije naredjenje, ne Muhameda a.s. zapovjest...Connaisseur Karlin wrote:hvala za tekst , ali treba podvuci, Muhamed je uve asketizam , jer post nije nardjene iz Kurana, plus pravila posta od mejsec dana je upravo Muhamed postavio , stoga i takav sistem asktizma , zuhd , je prilicno ekstremno postavljenkiligonzales wrote:http://dialogos.ba/2017/04/01/husein-do ... -tesavufa/
O vjernici! Propisuje vam se post, kao što je propisan onima prije vas, da biste se grijeha klonili (183). I to neznatan broj dana; a onome od vas koji bude bolestan ili na putu – isti broj drugih dana. Onima koji ga jedva podnose – otkup je da jednog siromaha nahrane. A ko drage volje da više, za njega je bolje. A bolje vam je, neka znate, da postite. U mjesecu ramazanu počelo je objavljivanje Kur’ana, koji je putokaz ljudima i jasan dokaz Pravoga puta i razlikovanja dobra od zla. Ko od vas u tom mjesecu bude kod kuće, neka ga u postu provede, a ko se razboli ili se na putu zadesi, neka isti broj dana naposti – Allah želi da vam olakša, a ne da poteškoće imate – da određeni broj dana ispunite, i da Allaha veličate zato što vam je ukazao na Pravi put, i da zahvalni budete.
pa da, restrikcija za post je da osobe budu kod kuce, a ne 10 sati u fabricikiligonzales wrote:Za muslimane to je Bozije naredjenje, ne Muhameda a.s. zapovjest...Connaisseur Karlin wrote:hvala za tekst , ali treba podvuci, Muhamed je uve asketizam , jer post nije nardjene iz Kurana, plus pravila posta od mejsec dana je upravo Muhamed postavio , stoga i takav sistem asktizma , zuhd , je prilicno ekstremno postavljenkiligonzales wrote:http://dialogos.ba/2017/04/01/husein-do ... -tesavufa/
Da citiram ajet iz Kur`ana, 183,184,185, sura Bekare:O vjernici! Propisuje vam se post, kao što je propisan onima prije vas, da biste se grijeha klonili (183). I to neznatan broj dana; a onome od vas koji bude bolestan ili na putu – isti broj drugih dana. Onima koji ga jedva podnose – otkup je da jednog siromaha nahrane. A ko drage volje da više, za njega je bolje. A bolje vam je, neka znate, da postite. U mjesecu ramazanu počelo je objavljivanje Kur’ana, koji je putokaz ljudima i jasan dokaz Pravoga puta i razlikovanja dobra od zla. Ko od vas u tom mjesecu bude kod kuće, neka ga u postu provede, a ko se razboli ili se na putu zadesi, neka isti broj dana naposti – Allah želi da vam olakša, a ne da poteškoće imate – da određeni broj dana ispunite, i da Allaha veličate zato što vam je ukazao na Pravi put, i da zahvalni budete.
There is no aayah in the Holy Quran which states exactly how many days one has to fast. The aayahs state to fast for a fixed number of days in one place and the whole month of Ramadan in another aayah, but there is no ayah that gives the exact number of days.
Sejh Karlin nisam te prepozno.Connaisseur Karlin wrote: pa da, restrikcija za post je da osobe budu kod kuce, a ne 10 sati u fabrici![]()
There is no aayah in the Holy Quran which states exactly how many days one has to fast. The aayahs state to fast for a fixed number of days in one place and the whole month of Ramadan in another aayah, but there is no ayah that gives the exact number of days.
Kako da osobe u Skandinaviji poste 20 sati ,a u ajetima pise da se tokom posta ne smije jesti od izalska do zalaska Sunca![]()
Znaci, post , kao sto se danas prakticira nije naredjen iz Kurana
pda, krsite pravila postakiligonzales wrote:Sejh Karlin nisam te prepozno.Connaisseur Karlin wrote: pa da, restrikcija za post je da osobe budu kod kuce, a ne 10 sati u fabrici![]()
There is no aayah in the Holy Quran which states exactly how many days one has to fast. The aayahs state to fast for a fixed number of days in one place and the whole month of Ramadan in another aayah, but there is no ayah that gives the exact number of days.
Kako da osobe u Skandinaviji poste 20 sati ,a u ajetima pise da se tokom posta ne smije jesti od izalska do zalaska Sunca![]()
Znaci, post , kao sto se danas prakticira nije naredjen iz Kurana
De de, mojne mi tih suvisnih tumacenjaConnaisseur Karlin wrote:
pda, krsite pravila posta
ja sam zakljucujem onako kako pise u Kuranskim ajetima , i onako kako su strucnjaci obrazlozili ajete , znaci, pisem i postavljam dodatno pitanja, bez zrna provokacijekiligonzales wrote:De de, mojne mi tih suvisnih tumacenjaConnaisseur Karlin wrote:
pda, krsite pravila posta
I koji mufesir tj. tumac Kur`ana rece da mjesec Ramazana nebi trebao trajati toliko i da onaj koji radi krsi pravila posta?Connaisseur Karlin wrote:ja sam zakljucujem onako kako pise u Kuranskim ajetima , i onako kako su strucnjaci obrazlozili ajete , znaci, pisem i postavljam dodatno pitanja, bez zrna provokacijekiligonzales wrote:De de, mojne mi tih suvisnih tumacenjaConnaisseur Karlin wrote:
pda, krsite pravila posta![]()
razumijem da ljudi poste iz ljubavi prema Bogu, ali pravila posta od strane postaca su prekrsena