AUTENTIČNOST vs DOGMA, (islam, Hriščanstvo, Judaizam itd.)

[salik79]

I, jos jednom Arzo, nemam ja problema s ovakvim insanima:


Prema njima moram biti obazriv...Ali, prema onima koji tekfire druge muslimane necu, niti zelim, imati ikakvog obzira. A ti, bujrum, budi s njima i na ovome i na onome Svijetu, ako su ti vec toliko srcu prirasli.

[salik79]

U medjuvremenu, dok ih cvrle i njegovi mentori tekfire, ramazan 2017. u Iranu:

sto djete od 4 ili 5 godina razumije ovo je pretjerivanje

Da imas djecu, znala bi. Imam vlastitu i znam sta su vec tada razumjele. A, prije par dana sam imao priliku upoznati desetogodisnju hafizu iz Irana, koja je to postala sa sedam, ne bi vjerovala koja je to zrelost i razumijevanje.

Takodjer, Imam Homeini k.s. je u tim godinama bio hafiz, kazu da je bio genijalan i u skoli i da su svi drugi ucenici, koji ne bi razumjeli materiju, nakon nastave od njega trazili pomoc. Kazu da je takav bio i u vjerskom i u svjetskom odgoju i obrazovanju, a i u sportu.

[salik79]

Ovo je ta hafiza:

[Connaisseur Karlin]

U medjuvremenu, dok ih cvrle i njegovi mentori tekfire, ramazan 2017. u Iranu:

sto djete od 4 ili 5 godina razumije ovo je pretjerivanje

Da imas djecu, znala bi. Imam vlastitu i znam sta su vec tada razumjele. A, prije par dana sam imao priliku upoznati desetogodisnju hafizu iz Irana, koja je to postala sa sedam, ne bi vjerovala koja je to zrelost i razumijevanje.

Takodjer, Imam Homeini k.s. je u tim godinama bio hafiz, kazu da je bio genijalan i u skoli i da su svi drugi ucenici, koji ne bi razumjeli materiju, nakon nastave od njega trazili pomoc. Kazu da je takav bio i u vjerskom i u svjetskom odgoju i obrazovanju, a i u sportu.

Pa nisi ti sinonime i primjer za sve roditleje u svijet, nisi mjerilo , jer mnoge osobe sa djecom se ne slazu sa tvojim stavom, jer znaju da djete ne moze razumjeti sadrzaj iz Kur'ana, Biblije i sl. u SAD stampaju djeci slikovnice vezan za relgijski sadrzaj iz Kur'ana i Bibilije Genijalnost je rijetka, a ovo je obicno maltertiranje djeteta koje ne razumije, doslovno, regrutovanje sto vise vjernika , a koji kasnije, postanu isfrustrirane odrasle licnosti ovakvo treiranje djece je na rubu fanatizma od strane roditelja ( ovakvo treiranje djece je negativno i u drugim sferama zivota, jer ih rodtiljei forsiraju radi licnih cijeva)

[salik79]

Eh, neka si ti sinonim...Jeste, moja djeca su isfrustrirana, cudo jedno

[Connaisseur Karlin]

Eh, neka si ti sinonim...Jeste, moja djeca su isfrustrirana, cudo jedno

to ces kasnije saznati, sad je prerano

[salik79]

Eh, neka si ti sinonim...Jeste, moja djeca su isfrustrirana, cudo jedno

to ces kasnije saznati, sad je prerano

Haj' ti meni reci, zasto si ti isfrustrirana? Na sta su tebe "tjerali"?

[Diwan]

[Diwan]

Glede ovih fotografija iz Irana - nema nikave razlike između vjerske indoktrinacije u Iranu ili recimo Saudiji ili nekoj drugoj izrazito islamističkoj državi.
Samo čovjek koji je u snu se može ponositi sa ovim i smatrati to pozitivnim i pohvalnim. Iživljavanje nad malom djecom - apsolutna religijska diskriminacija djece.

[asurbanipal]

Evo. Ovo mi se već dopada od tebe.

[Connaisseur Karlin]

Eh, neka si ti sinonim...Jeste, moja djeca su isfrustrirana, cudo jedno

to ces kasnije saznati, sad je prerano

Haj' ti meni reci, zasto si ti isfrustrirana? Na sta su tebe "tjerali"?

skreces sa teme

[zagortenej]

U medjuvremenu, dok ih cvrle i njegovi mentori tekfire, ramazan 2017. u Iranu:

sto djete od 4 ili 5 godina razumije ovo je pretjerivanje

Gvožđe se kuje dok je vruće

[Idemedosumom]

Dijete vidi roditelje kako uče Kur'an, pa hoće i ono. Ne mora značiti da ga tjeraju.

[Connaisseur Karlin]

Evo. Ovo mi se već dopada od tebe.

sad sam surfala:

Kurds in the Village Hewreman, Iran, celebrating the ancient festival of Pîr Şalyar. Pîr (Saint/Magi) Şalyar (Vizier), is believed to have cured a princess and married her, the ceremony marks their marriage. Pîr is the highest rank in Mithraism and Zoroastrianism. His tomb is located in the Kurdistan Province.

a usput mi i ovo iznaci:

comparative ethnicity
Yezidis of Jabal.Yazidis are a Kurdish ethno-religious group of northern Mesopotamia ( Ezidkhan) Their religion, Yazidism is linked to ancient Mesopotamian religions and combines aspects of Zoroastrianism, Islam, Christianity and Judaism. Intermarriage with non-Yaz is forbidden. They live primarily in the Nineveh Province of Iraq; Armenia, Georgia, Turkey, Iran, and Syria; much imigration to Europe, Germany. observably Kurdish, most speak Kurmanji (Northern Kurdish).

wow, koji gemischt

http://www.barcroft.tv/photographer-cap ... -mountains
obavezno otovriti link sa preedivnim fotografijama , eh ovo nisma znala

[Connaisseur Karlin]

Dijete vidi roditelje kako uče Kur'an, pa hoće i ono. Ne mora značiti da ga tjeraju.

to je takodjer primjer geografske sredine , tradicije i kulutre, a npr. Jevreji pocinju uciti djecu od trece godine zivota

podvlacim,da ne treba pretjerivati

[zagortenej]

Hajd što djeca ništa ne razumiju, ali i roditelji isto.

[arzuhal]

Vrtis, vrtis, okolo - naokolo, a preskaces cinjenicu da svi insani, koje si spomenuo u svom upisu, su (bili) indenticnog stava po ovom pitanju, koji ja zastupam, odnosno slijedim...Od Hadziefendije k.s.., preko dede Selima r.a., do Alije Tvrtkovica (inace insana kod kojeg zadnjih 12 godina idem na dzumu/hutbu, odnosno s kojim se sve te godine druzim)...

Ti si taj, drug moj, koji neprestano vrti, postavljaš imena ljudi i vičeš:"A kako ovaj vjeruje, a šta kažeš za ovog?", a akida ehli-sunneta je sasvim jasna, bez obzira kako ko vjeruje, kako je ko kada šta rekao, na koji način, jel to neko ko je slušao najbolje shvatio i skonto, itd:

1. Ebu Bekr es-Siddik
2. Omer ibn Hattab
3. Osman ibn Affan
4. Alija ibn Ebi Talib, radijallahu 'anhum

Ovo je redoslijed i halifa i vrijednosti ashaba kako vjeruju - ne vahabiti (oni me ne interesuju!) nego - sunije, ehli-sunnet, od Meke i Medine, od preseljenja Poslanika, alejhi-slam, do danas u Bosni. Ne umanjujući ni time niti pri tome ni zeru vrijednosti pripadnika ehli-bejta

A, stavljati mene u isti kos sa Smrletom, likom koji tekfiri cijelu jednu skupinu muslimana, koji bezocno pljuje po Imami Homeiniju k.s. (kojega su gore pobrojani smatrali mudzedidom!!!), plasirajuci najgnusniju vehabitsku propagandu i, pri tome, od mene ocekivati da s njim budem "obazriv" je vrhunac ignorancije.

Ja vas ne izjednačavam, nego govorim samo ono što vas obojica kažete o sebi: da ste ehli-sunnet, da ste sunije.

[arzuhal]

I, jos jednom Arzo, nemam ja problema s ovakvim insanima:

Za ovog šejha Saliha sam ti i rekao neki dan da si me obradovao ovim videom, a ti si tada pomislio na svog šejha, da o njemu govorim, a ja ti nisam htio kontrirat i ispravljat...

A ti, bujrum, budi s njima i na ovome i na onome Svijetu, ako su ti vec toliko srcu prirasli.

ma kako ce ono samo juti, ne da maaaka

[Connaisseur Karlin]

Hajd što djeca ništa ne razumiju, ali i roditelji isto.

naravno,ali je , takodjer, vazan uticaj sredine , dali je sredina konzervtivna,izolirana i obratno

ironija je,narocito na Zapadu, da mnogi odrasli prestanu godinama ici redovno u crkvu,dzamiju,sinagou,a kasnije, kao roditelji,pocnu trenirati djete u nedeljnim skolama u sklopu crkve,dzamije ili sinagoge

[Diwan]

John 1:1 and the Coptic Versions
ϨΝ ΤЄϨΟΥЄΙΤЄ ΝЄϤϢΟΟΠ ΝϬΙ ΠϢΑϪЄ ΑΥШ ΠϢΑϪЄ ΝЄϤϢΟΟΠ ΝΝΑϨΡΜ ΠΝΟΥΤЄ ΑΥШ ΝЄΥΝΟΥΤЄ ΠЄ ΠϢΑϪЄ -- John 1:1, Sahidic Coptic text. --- "In the beginning existed the Word, and the Word existed with the God, and a god was the word." -- Literal English translation

The Sahidic Coptic version corroborates early Christian Christology in many of its readings. This is especially true regarding the doctrine of the Trinity, since the most that can be read from Coptic John 1:1c is that "the Word was divine," not "the Word was God." Literally, what the Coptic version says is "the Word was a god."

This is consistent with what historians know about the development of the doctrine of the Trinity. As one edition of the New Encyclopedia Britannica puts it, "Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament....The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies." (Micropedia, Volume X, p. 126) It was not until the 4th Christian century that the doctrine of the Trinity was firmly established in the churches.

Likewise, the book Encyclopedia of Early Christianity, edited by Everett Ferguson, says, "Primitive Christianity, like Judaism, was distinguished from paganism by its unqualified monotheism." (page 912) This "unqualified monotheism" also distinguished the Christology of primitive Christianity from later Trinitarianism.

Since the Sahidic Coptic version pre-dates the 4th century, being dated in the late 2nd or early 3rd century, it is not surprising that it does not labor under the doctrine of the Trinity. Not only does the Coptic version refrain from identifying Jesus as God Almighty at John 1:1c. It also does not contain the Trinitarian addition at 1 John 5:7 ("these three are one"), nor speak of 'the church of God which he purchased with his own blood,' (Acts 20:28) nor does it say that 'God was manifested in the flesh.' (1 Timothy 3:16) Rather, it speaks of the "church of the Lord" and says merely "this one who" was manifested in the flesh at 1 Timothy 3:16, not "God." Nor does it contain the added words at John 3:13, "[the Son of man] who is in heaven," which incorrectly indicates that Jesus could be God in heaven and Man on earth at the same time. Instead, like the earliest extant Greek manuscript of the Gospel of John, the p66 [Papyrus Bodmer II], the Sahidic Coptic text omits that unauthorized addition.

Other renderings of the Sahidic Coptic version also corroborate the fact that early Christian Christology, while an exalted Christology, was 'unqualifiedly monotheistic,' not Trinitarian. The Coptic readings are theologically neutral and frequently very literal readings of the New Testament Greek text.

[zijancer]

nešto dumam .. ovo čitanje i pisanje je baš precijenjeno
:p

[Diwan]

Do juče je Sveti Buharija bio nedodirljiv, uživajući oreol čednosti i nepotvorenosti, a sada imamo da neće proči još mnogo vremena da će i same hodže sa svojih mimbera pričati o korupciji unutar 'svete' zbirke.

Lično vjerujem da je i sam Kur'an bio podložan manipulacijama, ne samo u smislu nepoznavanja same materije odnosno nekompetetnosti ljudi koji su se bavili Kur'anom, varijacijama u kiraetu, hereketima, rasporedom sura, ajeta itd. već je bio podvrgnut i tekstulnim izmjenama: ubacivanjima i izbacivanjima određenih ajeta i sura. Naravno, teško je dokazati crno na bijelo tako nešto, ali postoje neke naznake koje upućuju na tako nešto.

Ako uzmemo činjenicu da su lagali na Poslanika a.s., da su mu ubili porodicu i da su vodili prikriveni i neprikriveni rat protiv njega od samog početka Objave, da su radili šta su htjeli nakon preseljenja Poslanika a.s., naivno je očekivati da su ostavili i samu Objavu netaknutom, ma kako muslimani mislili da je to nemoguće uzimajući u obzir ajet koji obećava zaštitu Objave.

Već se pisalo o tome da ajet ne govori o zaštiti Knjige, Objave, itd, već o zaštiti Zikra, ma šta to značilo, a ne znači Mushaf.

Shodno tome neki zanimljivi izvodi koji govore o mogućoj manipulaciji i sa Kur'anom:

1. First, Ubaydallah b. Ziyad, the famous and ruthless Umayyad governor of Iraq (56–67/675–686). A grandson of Abu¯ Sufyan and thus a member of the powerful ruling family, he was one of those rich traders who became powerful conquerors. After the conquest of Transoxania he held the strategic post of governor of Iraq during the caliphate of Muawiya and Yazıd I. He brutally stamped out Kharijı and Alid revolts and was responsible for the death of Imam al-Husayn b. Alı at Karbala". Anastute politician, he encouraged Marwan b. al-Hakam to stand as a candidate for the caliphate in Damascus in the face of the rival caliphate of Abdallah b. al-Zubayr in Mecca; Marwan subsequently became the first caliph of the second Umayyad period.

Ubaydallah b. Ziyad was also a man of letters and one of the “experts of Arabic” (ashab al- arabiyya). Abu l-Faraj al-Isfahanı in the Aghanı and Yaqut in the Udaba devote each a few lines to him. Ibn Abı Dawud writes that Ubaydallah b. Ziyad intervened in the establishment of the Qur"anic text, instructing his Persian secretary, Yazıd b. Hurmuz al-Farisı, to enter numerous additions: “Ubaydallah added (zada) two thousand harf (words,letters, expressions?) to the codex”, Yazıd reports. Of course, the secretary does not provide any details on the identity of the codex in question nor on the nature of the additions which he mentions. Moreover, the doubtless deliberate ambiguity of the word harf leaves room for all manner of speculation.

2.Al-Hajjaj, too, was a man of letters and one of the finest experts of the Arabic language. Al-Tabarı in his Tarıkh and al-Jahiz in his Bayan provide some examples of his flamboyant prose. Ibn Abı Dawud and Ibn Khallikan state that al-Hajjaj was deeply involved with the Qur"anic text. Occasionally contradictory accounts mention that he corrected divergent readings, arranged the order of certain chapters or verses, and improved the orthography by introducing diacritical marks and vowels.

According to al-Samhudı (d. 911/1506), an historian of the city of Medina, in an account admirably analysed by Mingana, al-Hajjaj established his own recension of the Quran, copies of which he dispatched to each of the capitals of the major provinces of the Islamic empire. These copies were to become the official text, supplanting earlier recensions which, wherever in Iraq they were found, he ordered to be destroyed. According to some accounts, al-Hajjaj was the first to have ordered the destruction of competing codices.

Other accounts report that he followed the example set by Uthman. Some sources maintain that the recensions banned by al-Hajjaj continued to circulate, and that his own codex was discarded under the Abbasids. Al-Hajjaj is mentioned in a polemical text by the Christian Arab apologist Abd al-Masıh al-Kindı, written perhaps at the beginning of the 3rd/9th century. In one of his epistles, al-Kindı (or the person who wrote using this name) states: “Then there was the intervention (i.e. in the Qur"anic text) by al-Hajjaj b. Yusuf. He seized all codices, omitting and adding a great deal. It is said that they (i.e. some of the omitted verses) were revealed concerning the Umayyads and Abbasids and included the names of some (Umayyad and Abbasid) personages. Six copies of the recension conforming to the wishes of al-Hajjaj were made and distributed: one to Egypt, another to Damascus, a third to Medina, a fourth to Mecca, a fifth to Kufa and a sixth to Basra. As for the earlier collections, he threw them into boiling oil and destroyed them, thus imitating Uthman’s action”.

3. The third figure is the caliph Abd al-Malik himself. The historiographical investigation by de Prémare, like earlier studies by Gerald Hawting on Umayyad history and Yehuda Nevo on the epigraphy of the period, demonstrate that Abd al-Malik’s reign witnessed major developments in Islamic doctrine. As concerns the definitive establishment of the Quranic text, there is first this statement by the caliph, reported in numerous sources: “I am afraid to die in the month of Ramadan because I was born in it, I was weaned in it, and in it I collected (jamatu) the Qur"an”.

Of course, the meaning of the root jm may again be said to be open to discussion; however, what we already know about the involvement of the two above-mentioned governors of Iraq in the shaping of the Qur"anic text seems to indicate that here the term does not mean “to memorize, to learn by heart” but rather “to collect, to put in order”.

Abd al-Malik may have aimed much higher and may have had larger objectives. The history of early Islam is in fact indebted to him for some major decisions:
1. The Arabization of the language of administration, which had until then been managed by the old Byzantine and/or Iranian officials in their respective languages.
2. Rendering official the status of the “the protected” (dhimm¯ı) Jews, Christians and probably also Zoroastrians, by implementing the poll tax (jizya) as a sign of their inferior status in the Islamic state and in return for the protection which this state offered them.
3. Issuing an Islamic gold coinage devoid of any figurative representation and minted exclusively with religious formulae in Arabic.

In this context, the caliph and other powerful men in his entourage must have been aware that control of belief was a fundamental aspect of power, and that this could only be achieved by controlling and codifying scripture, especially in a society with numerous dissident political- religious movements. A single Book, independent of previous sacred scriptures—in this case those of the Jews and Christians—and codified according to state dogma was the best guarantee of doctrinal and thus political stability. Thus, the initiative to produce an official Qur"anic codex, apparently begun during Uthman’s caliphate, seems to have been concluded during Abd al-Malik’s reign or slightly later.

In the intervening period, which witnessed further conquests and an increasing desire on the part of Muslim leaders clearly to distinguish their religion from Judaism and Christianity, continuous work on the redaction of the text was taking place, consisting of arrangement, rewriting, stylization, redaction, correction etc.

Nešto slično, odnosno identično što se tiče nastajanja konačne verzije Kur'ana govori i Mohamed Arkoun:


Historical-Anthropological Interpretation

The main objective of this reading is to relate the Quran to its environment in the seventh-century Arabian Peninsula.16 This reading starts with a new history of the Quran. The Quran was first delivered orally and then written down on the available materials, though in scratch form, during the lifetime of Prophet Muhammad (SAS). Less than three decades after his death, the surahs (chapters) of the Quran were codified into the Mushaf. This Mushaf remains, as it was, to the present. Still, before the Mushaf came into existence, the art of memorization and recital of the whole surahs of the Quran had been well established.

Dissatisfied with this historical fact, Arkoun provides a very different account of the history of the Quran. He generally divides it into two periods: the period of revelation or the formative period and the period of collection and fixation period. The formative period covered the Makkah and Madinah revelations when the Quran was circulated orally among the companions. The fixation and written period extended from the time of the Prophet's death to the fourth/ tenth century. According to Arkoun, the final formation of the Quran was not accomplished until the fourth/tenth century. Arkoun prefers to refer to the Quran in its first transition as "the Quranic Discourse" and "the Prophetic Discourse" and in its second transition as "the Official Closed Corpus."

Looking at both transitions, he defines the Quran as "a finished and an opened corpus expressed in Arabic, to which we cannot have access except through the text fixed after the fourth/tenth century."

Comparing the oral and the written forms of the Quran, Arkoun asserts that the Quran was holier, more authentic and more reliable when it was a discourse than when it took a written form. The reason for this, according to Arkoun, is that the Quran was open to all meanings in its oral and not in its written form. In contrast, the use of writing tools i.e., pen, paper, etc., had relegated the divine status of the Quran to a worldly book. In short, he does not think that the Mushaf deserves the status of holiness, but that Muslim orthodoxy nevertheless elevated this corpus to the status of divine speech of God.

[Diwan]

Sada duboko udahnite i uzmite čašu vode i kocku šećera prije pregledavanja ovog videa:

RAMAZAN JE U SEPTEMBRU

[Towelie]

Ima ovakvih likova koji kontaju da je Ramazam u opsegu od januara od decembra, pa nek svako odabere kad mu je najlakse da posti.

[Diwan]

Ima ovakvih likova koji kontaju da je Ramazam u opsegu od januara od decembra, pa nek svako odabere kad mu je najlakse da posti.

samo što ovaj 'lik' vrlo dobro zna o čemu priča