BOG vs NAUKA

[Ali_G]

Iz tvojih postova mogu pretpostaviti da si vjernica. Eh ako je tako, nemoj stetiti ostalim vjernicima svojim ovakvim nastupima. Sve ti je nesto s visoka, preskacu te sa svih strana. Nesto kao sto su svojevremeno Kotromanicha. I onda se cudimo zasto ljudi vjernike proglasavaju stadom ovaca.
Konstantno pominjes vjerovatnocu za slucajni nastanak prve celije, al evolucionisti se uopste ne bave time. Bez obzira da li podrzavala teoriju ili ne, zar je toliko tesko shvatiti da samim pominjanjem toga bilo ko ispada smijesan.
Pozdrav

[dr.Gonzo]

OK, mozda je problem koji sam postavila malo pretezak. Hajde da probamo malo laksi. Uzmite jednu kredu....ne, ne, uzmite cijelu saku kreda.....ahem, kad malo bolje razmislim....ma uzmite cijelu vrecu kreda....., pa izadjite fino na ulicu (koja je malo duza), pa napisite na asfaltu 1..... so far so good? Good....zatim u produzetku napisite 340 miliona nula..... jeste, jeste, tristo cetrdest miliona nula. Kada to uradite, fino uslikajte pa postavite sliku ovdje na forumu. Taj broj je matematicka vjerovatnoca nastajanja jedne zive celije metodom u koji vi "vjerujete". Pa kada postavite sliku, ja cu vam pokazati kako se dodje do tog broja. A ja odoh na kahvu...

Kako bi bilo da se, za promjenu, upoznas sa teorijom koju kritikujes? Recimo, ko smo to "mi" koji vjerujemo da je celija nastala slucajno. Cisto sumnjam da postoji i jedan naucnik koji u to vjeruje. Prirodna selekcija, i slucajnost nisu isto. Daleko od toga. Barem to bi trebali znati svi koji zele da kritikuju teoriju evolucije.

Postoje brojni matematicki modeli koji pokazuju da prirodnom selekcijom od jednostavnih stvari mogu nastati kompleksne, i to nema nikakve veze sa slucajnoscu. Pogledaj recimo ovaj algoritam, kojim se vjestackom selekcijom (u stilu evolucije) rjesavaju kompleksni problem optimizacije.

Citava ova prica se svodi na sljedece: kreacionisti kritikuju ono sto oni misle da je teorija evolucije, a ne ono sto teorija evolucije zaista jeste. Sto je najgore, ta prica prolazi kod neupucenih posmatraca, i to autori kao sto je Harun Yahya dobro znaju.

[GAU8]

.....
OK, mozda je problem koji sam postavila malo pretezak. Hajde da probamo malo laksi. Uzmite jednu kredu....ne, ne, uzmite cijelu saku kreda.....ahem, kad malo bolje razmislim....ma uzmite cijelu vrecu kreda....., pa izadjite fino na ulicu (koja je malo duza), pa napisite na asfaltu 1..... so far so good? Good....zatim u produzetku napisite 340 miliona nula..... jeste, jeste, tristo cetrdest miliona nula. Kada to uradite, fino uslikajte pa postavite sliku ovdje na forumu. Taj broj je matematicka vjerovatnoca nastajanja jedne zive celije metodom u koji vi "vjerujete". Pa kada postavite sliku, ja cu vam pokazati kako se dodje do tog broja. A ja odoh na kahvu....

Zar od silne matematike nisi stigla nauciti da je vjerovatnoca, ma kako mala bila, opet znacajna uzmemo li mnogo pokusaja i mnogo vremena da pokusavamo.

[Bitte_Halt_ja_ja]

to je isto kao sto vec neko rece, izvuci 4 karte iz 2 spila i izracunaj kolika je sansa da ce bas te karte izvuci i to bas tim redom

[Great Cornholio]

Citava ova prica se svodi na sljedece: kreacionisti kritikuju ono sto oni misle da je teorija evolucije, a ne ono sto teorija evolucije zaista jeste. Sto je najgore, ta prica prolazi kod neupucenih posmatraca, i to autori kao sto je Harun Yahya dobro znaju.

Nije problem što kreacionisti kritikuju teoriju evolucije, već je problem što oni žele da "objašnjenja" iz vjerskih spisa ( religijska objašnjenja nastanka čovjeka) nametnu kao ispravna, kao nešto što može proći test naučne provjere, pri tome ignorišući sve naučne dokaze koji idu u prilog tezi da čovjek nije nastao u jednom trenutku, već je nastao postepenom transformacijom i usložnjavanjem jednostavnijih oblika živih organizama.

Ne znam zašto jednostavno prestanu mučiti i nas i sebe i kažu " Čovjek je nastao evolucijom kojom je upravljao Bog" , jer tad Bog i nauka ne bi bili suprotstavljeni.
Priča sa Ademom /Adamom i Havom/ Evom je prevaziđena.

[shillen]

pa de nam napisite / pokazite vishe te famozne dokaze da imamo o cemo raspravljati/citati

[Great Cornholio]

pa de nam napisite / pokazite vishe te famozne dokaze da imamo o cemo raspravljati/citati

Jesi li ikad čuo za fosile ?

[Great Cornholio]

pa de nam napisite / pokazite vishe te famozne dokaze da imamo o cemo raspravljati/citati

Jesi li ikad čuo za fosile ?

Sta cuo? ....
Jeste vi meni sega

Slušo ih, i to na moru
Ti , po običaju, samo nevjernike kritikuješ

[shillen]

ne znam kako tebi fosili dokazuju da je covjek nast'o evolucijom....

i btw. nikad necu skontat sta ce ateisti na pdf religija ... dodje mi ga nesto ko kad bi gluh covjek otis'o na koncert ...

[Great Cornholio]

ne znam kako tebi fosili dokazuju da je covjek nast'o evolucijom....

Pa ako nađeš ostatke nečega što liči na današnjeg čovjeka, i utvrdiš da su ti ostaci mnogo stariji od ostataka prvih modernih ljudi , to ti makar mora probuditi sumnju da između tog bića i današnjeg čovjeka postoji neka veza.

[asurbanipal]

Gledaj heroja, njih 6 protiv jedne cure koja mos mislit' vjeruje u Boga, aferim

A onda dođu da "morališu" o položaju žene u islamu...

[psydelija]

Nije problem što kreacionisti kritikuju teoriju evolucije, već je problem što oni žele da "objašnjenja" iz vjerskih spisa ( religijska objašnjenja nastanka čovjeka) nametnu kao ispravna, kao nešto što može proći test naučne provjere, pri tome ignorišući sve naučne dokaze koji idu u prilog tezi da čovjek nije nastao u jednom trenutku...

nije tacno da je covek po religijskom ucenju nastao odjednom( ako se nevaram)?!

ps: nego, napisi nam ako ti nije zahmetno i "tvoju" teoriju nastanka coveka... hvala.

[Great Cornholio]

Nije problem što kreacionisti kritikuju teoriju evolucije, već je problem što oni žele da "objašnjenja" iz vjerskih spisa ( religijska objašnjenja nastanka čovjeka) nametnu kao ispravna, kao nešto što može proći test naučne provjere, pri tome ignorišući sve naučne dokaze koji idu u prilog tezi da čovjek nije nastao u jednom trenutku...

nije tacno da je covek po religijskom ucenju nastao odjednom( ako se nevaram)?!

ps: nego, napisi nam ako ti nije zahmetno i "tvoju" teoriju nastanka coveka... hvala.

Bog je stvorio Adema/ Adama od ilovače, pa je onda stvorio Havu/Evu od njegovog rebra - to je religijsko objašnjenje ?

Moja teorija o nastanku čovjeka još nije kompletirana, još uvijek sam u fazi istraživanja.

[Great Cornholio]

Gledaj heroja, njih 6 protiv jedne cure koja mos mislit' vjeruje u Boga, aferim

A onda dođu da "morališu" o položaju žene u islamu...

Kad su u pitanju intelektualne rasprave ja ne gledam ko govori, muškarac ili žena,već šta govori, i ne pravim razlike između muških i ženskih svjedoka

[VerticalHairFactor]

Nevjerovatno je kako su se muslimani reducirali i od sebe napravili blijede kopije evangelističkih ekstremista, niječući svu svoju historiju i radove klasičnih muslimanskih učenjaka i filozofa od prije 1200 godina. Eh, da, sve je to počelo sa Seidom nursijem i Adnanom Oktarom, koji sa "kreacionistima" prave zajedničke kružoke i lupetaju o stvarima koje nemaju veze sa stvarnošću.
Malo je poznato da je evolucija i makro i mikro-kozmosa predstavljala prevalentno učenje rane islamske misli, zbog ajeta kao što je "Sve smo živo od vode stvorili", "Zar se čovjek ne sjeća perioda kada spomena nije bio vrijedan", itd. Za razliku od retrogradnih i neukih skolastika današnjice, tipa Haruna Jahje i sličnih, koji neće ostati upamćeni u historiji muslimana osim kao bijedne kopije svojih evangelističkih originala, stari islamski filozofi iz Zlatnog doba su uočili i teoretizirali o evoluciji gotovo istovjetno Darvinu, koji je inspiraciju i našao u najpoznatijem od njih Al Jahizu, o kojem je učio na časovima orjentalistike kod Samuela Leeja. Već sam o ovome postao na temi o evoluciji, tako da mi neće biti teško to uraditi i ovdje - mada je nivo rasprave bitno niži nego na NIN-ovoj temi tamo:

U vezi sa evolucijom, kod prvih islamskih skolastika to je bilo prevalentno mišljenje (od prije jednog milenija i jače), s tim da je to kod njih bila teistička evolucija (Božiji zakoni su takvi da se sve razvija i mijenja, pa i sam čovjek; u tom kontekstu navodili su za osnov ajete tipa: "I sve živo smo od vode stvorili", dakle i čovjek kao živo biće ima svoje najdalje porijeklo u toj vodi, u početku života, jer ovaj arapski oblik se zove hasr - obuhvaćanje svega), dakle oni su poprilično daleko otišli u teoretiziranju i nekim ograničenim empirijskim dokazima, no začuđujuće je da su doslovce postavili teoriju istovjetnu Darvinovoj, što ćeš vidjeti iz teksta dolje. Danas su muslimani u ovom pogledu u potpunosti preuzeli evangelističku dogmu, što je apsurd, zar ne, prije 1200 godina su bili više in nego danas, štaviše ja se ne mogu "opasuljiti" od tipova poput Haruna Jahje i sličnih, mislim stvarno ne kontam u čemu je sva fama sa evolucijom, kad su je u Bagdadu u 9. stoljeću po džamijama i kružocima znanja navodili kao proces stvaranja i jedinstva svega živog. El-Džahiz se nije oslanjao na grčka učenja, on je bio potaknut spomenutim ajetom, tvrdeći da je život krenuo iz sitnih ćelija i "minerala", pa se prilagođavao i razvijao - naravno prema njemu sve je to Božiji zakon i volja - postajao kompleksniji da bi danas imali to što imamo. Drugi i najveći podsticaj za njega bila je boja kože - on je bio afričkog porijekla - dogurao je do halifinog dvora kao učitelj, ali stare predrasude i rasizam, iako strogo zabranjene islamom jer je "Bog stvorio ljude i plemena da se upoznaju, a najbolji je onaj koji se najviše Boga boji", odnosno u hadisu poslanik kaže "Odbacite 'asabijju (privrženost na temelju plemena, rase ili bilo čega drugog), ona je pogan", i dalje su se promaljale. E, onda je on počeo promatrati pripadnike arapskih plemena i skontao da isto pleme, čija dva ogranka žive na različitim mjestima duže vrijeme, rađaju djecu od kojih su ona sjevernije bijelja a ova južnije tamna, gotovo crna - i onda je napisao Kitabul-Hajvan. Njegovi istomišljenici, koji su također teoretizirali na tu temu su: Ibn-Miskavejh, El-Biruni, Tusi i nadaleko čuveni Ibn-Haldun (za neke muslimanske skolastike "evlija" - božiji prijatelj u prenesenom značenju, jedan od najvećih sunijskih učenjaka); sve u svemu krema prve generacije islamskih filozofa i učenjaka.
Ukratko, tekst je od Mehmeta Bayraktara (na engleskom), na arapskom ima dosta detaljnije, ali i ovo je dostatno:

Although al-Nazzam made the first steps in the field of biological evolutionary thought in the history of science, for the first time the theory of biological evolution in its complete form was presented by a great early zoologist, al-Jahiz in the ninth century. He was the first to originate it. Al-Jahiz’s theory is an example of scientific revolution and innovation that has had reverberations into the farthest reaches of human thought. It is fair to say that many problems of the philosophy of Nature appeared in a new light after the revolution of al-Jahiz and his successors. Before describing al-Jahiz’s own views and his influence upon Muslim and European thinkers, especially upon Lamarck and Darwin, I want to give some biographical and bibliographical accounts.

a. Biographical and Bibliographical Notices

Al-Jahiz’s complete name is Abu ‘Uthman Amr bin Bahr al-Fukaymi al-
Basri. He owes his sobriquet (al-Jahiz = the goggle-eyed) to a malformation of his eyes. He was born at Basra about 776. Little is known of his childhood, except that, from an early age, an invincible desire for learning and a remarkably inquisitive mind urged him towards a life of independence and, much to his family’s despair, idleness. Mixing with groups which gathered at diflérent mosques to learn, attending as a spectator the philological enquiries conducted on the Mirbad and following lectures by the most learned men and scholars of his time on philology, lexiography and poetry, namely al-Asma’i, Abu ‘Ubayda, Abu Zayd, he soon acquired real mastery of the Arabic language along with the usual and traditional culture."1" And later his precious intelligence won him admittance to Mu’tazili circles and bourgeois salons, where conversation, often light, was also
animated by philosophical, theological, scientific problems. His penetrating observation of the various elements in a mixed population increased his knowledge of human nature, whilst reading books of all kinds which were beginning to circulate in Basra gave him some outlook onto the outside world. His early literary activity won him the compliments of al-Ma’mun and thereby that consecration by the capital covetted by so many provincials eager to have their talent recognized and so reach the court and establish themselves.

From then on, without completely abandoning Basra, al-Jahiz frequently stayed for long periods in Baghdad and later in Samarra, devoting himself to literary and scientific works. For some time he was the teacher of al-Mutawakkil’s children. Although information about his private and public life is not readily forthcoming from either his biographer or himself, it appears from what knowledge we have that al-Jahiz held no official post and took on no regular employment. He admits, however, that he received considerable sums for the dedications of his books and we know that for a time at least, he was made an allowance by the diwan. In Baghdad, later on, he found a rich store of learning which enabled him to broaden his outlook and perfect his own philosophical and theological doctrine, which he had begun to elaborate under the supervision of the great mu tazalis of the day, of whom al-Nazzarn and Thumana b. Ashras, who seems to have had a strong influence on him, should be placed in the first rank.

Towards the end of his life, suffering from hemiplegia, he retired to his hometown, where he died in 869 (225) "2".
As in politics, so in theology al-Jahiz was a mu’tazili. He was also a famous Muslim prose writer. His place in the development of Muslim thought is far from negligible. He was the founder ofa sect named after him, al-Jahiziyya "3". He was a genius in the science of zoology. And he knew how to obtain ammonia and salmiac from animal offals by dry distillation "4"
Being a polyhistor and man of letters, al-Jahiz had a very great output like many Muslim writers. A catalogue of his works lists nearly 200 titles of which only about a third have been preserved in their entirety; about fifty thers have been partially preserved, whilst the rest seem irremediably lost "5". His most important book is The Book of Animals (Kitab al-Hayawan) "6". Iahiz’s method was empirical and scientific, not only discursive, as Sarton elieves "7". That is why Asin Palacios says, “Como el mismo lo insinua en el rologo (I, 6), puso a contribucion para redactarlo los libros de los filosofos, os relatos y noticias de viajeros, marinos, etc. Y Ia observacion o experiencia lirecta.” The scientific value of this book is great; and it is "8", as Asin Palacios ays, a real contribution to the history of science, namely to zoology. The main source of al-Jahiz’s Book of Animals is the book on zoology of his )recursors and contemporary, ‘Abd al-Malik bin Qurayb al-Asma’i (739- 831) "9". As far as I knowm this book is the first zoological, book in the history of slamic thought. The Kitab al-Hayawan was the object of many studies, and had great influence upon later Muslim scientists, and via them upon European thinkers as well. And it became the source for later books on oology. Al-Jahiz’s many sentences are quoted by Ikhwan al-Safa’ and Ibn

Miskawayh, and many passages are quoted by Zakariyya’ al-Qazwini (1203-1282) in his ‘A/a’ ib al-Maklzluqat, and by Mustawfial-Qazwini (1281- ?) in his Nuzkat ai-Qulub; and al-Damiri in his Hayat al-Hayawan’ "10".

b. Al-Jahiz’s View on Biological Evolution

After a long study of animals, Al-Jahiz was the first to put forward his view of biological evolution in his Book ofAnimals, which contains the germs of many later evolutionary theories (animal embryology, evolution, adaptation, animal psychology and sociology) "11".
First of all, al-Jahiz’s attempts were made in a truly scientific spirit to classifV animals in a linear series, beginning with the simplest and continuing to the most complex; and at the same time, he arranged them into groups having marked similarities; and these groups were divided into sub-groups to trace the ultimate unit in the species "12"
An early exponent of the zoological and anthropological sciences, al- Jahiz discovered and recognized the effect of environmental factors on animal life; and he also observed the transformation of animal species under different factors. And in many remarkable passages of his book, he also described for us the struggle of existences for survival, its aim and mechanisms and value in a scientific way, as well as in a folkloric way. As to know the mechanistiis of evolution, al-Jahiz described three mechanisms. These are Struggle for Existence, Transformation of species into each other, and Environmental Factors.
Let us now see the mechanisms, as briefly as possible.
Struggle for Existence: al-Jahiz placed the greatest weight on evolution by the struggle for existence, or, in a larger sense, by natural selection. It operates in conjunction with the innate desire for conservation and permanence of the ego. According to al-Jahiz, between every individual existence, there is a natural war for life. The existence are in struggle with each other. Al-Jahiz’s theory of struggle for existence may accordingly be defined as a differential death rate between two variant class of existence, the lesser death rate characterizing the better adapted and stronger class. And for al-Jahiz, the struggle for existence is a divine law; God makes food for some bodies out of some other bodies’ death. He says, “The rat goes out for collecting his food, and it searches and seizes them. It eats some other inferior animals, like small animals and small birds. . . it hides its babies in disguised underground tunnels for protecting them and himself against the attack of the snakes and of the birds. Snakes like eating rats very much. As for the snakes, they defend themselves from the danger of the beavers and hyenas; which are more powerful than themselves. The hyena can frighten the fox, and the latter frightens all the animals which are inferior to it. ...

this is the law that some existences are the food for others. . . . All small animals eat smaller ones; and all big animals cannot eat bigger ones. Men with each other are like animals. . . God makes cause of some bodies life, “ "13" from some bodies death and vice versa. And according to al-Jahiz, the struggle does not exist only between the members of different species, but also between the members of the same species "14".
From what al-Jahiz has said, we can make an assertion that God has created Nature in a prodigal reproductive character and He has also established a law, which is the biological struggle for existence in order to keep it within a limited ratio. Otherwise, the disorder could appear in Nature and it could lose some of its riches and species. We can see the germs of Darwin’s and the Neo-Darwinian’s theory of Natural Selection in this remarkable passage which we have mentioned above.
Transformation of Species: Al-Jahiz, as later Lamarck and Darwin, for example, believes that the transformation of species and mutation is possible. The transformation operates in conjunction with the effect of environmental factors. And he asserted that the original forms branched out into new forms of species by gradually developing new characteristics which helped them to survive environmental conditions. He says, “People said different things about the existence of al-miskh (the original form of quadrupeds) "15". Some accepted its evolution and said that it gave existence to dog, wolf, fox and their similars. The members of this family came from this form (al-miskk).” "16"
And, he adds that God’s will and power is the main causal factor in the transformation, and God can transform any species into another at any time He wants. So al-Jahiz defends the transformation of species and mutation, due to different factors, including God’s will’7, as we have said above. Here al-Jahiz got some of his material from the sayings of different learned men.
As for the effect of environmental factors on species, al-Jahiz believes that the food, climate, shelter and other factors have some biological and psychological effects on species. And for him, these factors also lead the species to a hard struggle for survival. In a changed environment, there is also a change in some characters having survival value. The process of changing characters in succeeding generations makes the organisms better adapted to their environment. They thus survive and get a chance to breed and transmit their characteristics to their offspring. So, al-Jahiz based his theory upon the notion of the use and disuse of organs in the adaptation of animals to their environment.
Al-Jahiz says, “Without doubt, we have seen that some Nabatheen navigators resembled the ape in some geographical environment, likely we have also seen some people from Morocco and have found them as like as al-maskh "18", except for a little difference.... And it is possible that the polluted air and water, and dust made this change in the character of these Moroccans. . . . If this effect goes on more and more in them, those changes in their bristles, ears, colours, and form (similar to the ape) increase more.... “ "19"
Such are the main mechanisms of al-Jahiz’s biological evolution. Now, I will speak about al-Jahiz’s great influence upon Muslim and European scientists. Al-Jahiz’s zoology and theory of biological evolution have profoundly affected the development of zoology and biology. As we have said before, al-Jahiz’s biological evolution had some direct influences upon Ikhwan al-Safa, and other illustrious philosophers, such as Ibn Miskawayh, al-Biruni, Ibn Tufayl, with whom al-Jahiz’s theory acquired a new sense, in that they made of it two new doctrines: a cosmological one, because it was applied to the phenomena of the whole universe; and a sociological one, because it was applied to social phenomena. Moreover, Ibn Miskawayh and Ibn Khaldun explain the true meaning of Prophecy and prove it by such a theory. Thus, Jahiz’s pure biological evolution became the source of different doctrines in later Islamic thought, such as sociological, metaphysical and cosmological evolutionisms.
On the other hand, al-Jahiz’s theory has been repeated by Muslim zoologists and naturalists, especially by al-Zakariyya’ al-Qazwini, in his ‘Aja’ ib al-Makhluqat, Mustawfi al-Qazwini in his Nuzhat al-Qulub, and al- Damiri in his Hayat al-Hayawan, without mentioning other literary persons, such as al-Masudi and Ibn Qutayba.
As for the influence of al-Jahiz on European thinkers, it has become the subject of two main studies: “Der Darwinismus im X und XIX Jahrhundert” of Fr. Dieterici (Leipzig, 1878) and “Darwinistisches bei Gahiz” of E. Wiedemann (sitzungsbericht der physikalisch-medizinischen Sozietaet in Erlangen, 47, 1915). Previous to me, they found a great similarity between al-Jahiz and Darwin. Indeed, Darwin and his precursors took up the theory of al-Jahiz as the base for the essentiality of their evolutionary theories, and they formulated it in a more scientific way in the context of eighteenth and nineteenth centuries development of science. Perhaps the only main difference b~etween al-Jahiz’s theory and modern theory is in ideology: al-Jahiz’s theory is theologic and more transcendental in this sense that he accepts that the first cause of evolution in living organisms is God and that the other factors are secondary; while Lamarck, Darwin and others’ evolution is more immanent and materialistic. Although the mechanistic explanations of the theories are more or less the same, Darwin and other modern scientists differ from al-Jahiz and other Muslim writers in ideological interpretation of the theory.
How has Jahiz’s idea been transmitted to the Europeans? Al-Jahiz and other evolutionist Muslim thinkers influenced Darwin and his predecessors in several ways. Before the flourishing of C. Linnaeus (1707-1778), Buffon (1707-1788), E. Darwin (1731-1802),J. B. Lamarck (1744-1829), and Ch. Darwin (1809-1882), and long before the rise of the school of Natural Philosophy in Germany, al-Jahiz and others were known to Europeans through the translation of their own works and studies on them by Europeans. For example, al-Damiri’s book Hayat al-Hayawan was partially translated into Latin by a Jew, called Abraham Echellensis (d. Italy 1664) and published in Paris in 1617. This book contains many passages taken from al-Jahiz’s Kitab al-Hayawan. Al-Nuwayri’s JVihaya was studied by D’Herbelot (1625—1695) in his Bibliotheca Orientalis, and later byJ. Heyman (?—1737). Ibn Tufayl’s Hay Ibn raqzan, which contains the philosophy of evolution, was first published by Edward Pocockes, Sr. (1604-1690), together with a Latin translation published by Edward ~Pococke, Jr. (1648-1727) in Oxford in 1671 (second edition, Oxford, 1700) "20". Zakariyya’ al-Qazwini’s cosmography, ‘Aja’ ib al-Makhluqat was published by F. Wustenfeld in 2 volumes in Gottingen in 1848-49; and Kitab Talkhis al-A thar of Bakuwi, a summary of al-Qazwini’s book was translated into French and published by De Guignes in Paris, in 1789 "21". In fact, his book also contains many ideas from al-Jahiz. And A. L. de Chezy translated al-Qazwini’ s ‘Aja’ib, and his translation was published in 1806 (first publication) by S. de Sacy, in his Chresiomathie A rabe. There is no doubt that the great evolutionist sufi, Mawlana, had already influenced Goethe, who called him “a Darwinian before Darwin” "22" his theory of metamorphosis has profbundly affected the development of biology. In any case, Islamic zoology penetrated the West as early as the seventeenth century "23". Some Europeans knew Arabic and they could read directly from the Muslim scientists’ books; for example, Darwin was himself initiated into Islamic culture in Cambridge under ajewish orientalist called Samuel Lee "24". We think that what we have said can show Muslim influence upon Europeans. Some further comparative study can be undertaken in this subject, in order to bring to light the influence of Muslim evolutionist thinkers upon the Europeans and the transmission of their ideas to the West.
Al-Jahiz’s theory of evolution was something very new in the history of science, and there was nothing written previous to it. Although Greek philosophers like Empedocles and Aristotle spoke of the change in Nature, in plants and animals, they never made the first steps on the field of the future theory of evolution of the Muslims. Their concept of change was only a concept of simple change and motion, nothing more than that. And by the concept of change, they never designed explicitly or implicitly a concept of evolution: “The World of Nature is thus for Aristotle, a world of self-moving thing, as it is for the Ionians and for Plato. . .. Nature as such is process, growth, change. This process is a development, i.e. the changing takes successive forms, a, b, y, . . . in which each is the potentiality of its successor, but it is not what we call ‘evolution’, because for Aristotle, the kinds of change and of structure exhibited in the world of nature form an eternal repertory, and the items in the repertory are related logically, not temporally, among themselves"25"”.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) Pellat (Ch.), “Al-Dlahiz”, in RI2, vol. II, p. 385.
2) Ibn ‘Asakir, MMIJ, IX, pp. 203—217.
3) Khaiib Baghdadi, XII, pp. 212-222.
4) Sarton (G.), Iniroduciion in ihe Hisiorp of Science, vol. I, Washington, 1927, p. 597.
5) Pellat (Ch.), “Gahiziana”, in Arabica, 1956/2; cf Brockelmann (C.), GAL, SI., 241ff
6) The Book of .4niinals was published in 7 volumes, in Cairo, 1323—1324.
7) Sarton says: “His most important work is The Book oj.-Inimals, a very discursive compilation, the purpose of which is theological and folkloric, rather than scientific , Sarton, op. cii., p. 597. Sarton’sjudgement is not true; indeed, many of the knowledges given in the 1)00k are the result of his personal observation and his experiences, as al-Jahiz himself says in several chapters.
Asin Palacios (M.), “El ‘Libro de los Animales’ deJahiz”, in isi.’;, vol. 14 1930, p. 21.
9) Some parts of’ his book are published by R. Geyer in Wien, in 1887; and by A. Haffner in Wien, in 1895—1896; the book on the creation of man is still unpublished.
10) It is very interesting to notice that a summary of’ al-Damiri’s and other Muslim scientists’ books was translated into Latin by Abraham Echellensis (d. Italy 1664) and was published under the title “Dc Proprietatibus et Virtutibus Medicis Animalium” in Paris, in 1617. So, that is to say, sometime before the appearance ofbarwin’s precursors, such as F. Redi (1626—1698), C. Linnaeus (1707—1778), Buflon (1707—1788), Lamarck (1744—1829). the idea of evolution of Muslims was penetrated in West and this explains why the first evolutionists came from France. See Mieli (A.), La Science .1 robe ei Son Role dan l’Et’oluiion Scienijfique Mondiale, Leiden, Brill, 1938, pp. 263-264, n. 3; and extracts have been translated into French by A.J. Silvestre dc Sacy, Oppianos II, Strasbourg, 1787; see Sarton (G.), Vol. III, Part II, p. 1641. 11) Pella (Ch.), ‘Al-Djahiz”, op. cii., p. 386; cf Sarton, op. cii., p. 597.
12) Al-Jahiz, Kiiab al-Ha vawan, Vol. I, Cairo, 1909, p. 13, and see also different chapters of the volumes.
13) ldem., Vol. VI, pp. 133—34; and there are many passages in different volumes illustrating the struggle for existence. See VI, 139; VII, 47, 80. 14. ldem., vol. VII, pp. 47-48.
15) According to some opinions, this original form of animal was lost because of earthquakes and floods. See al-Jahiz, op. cit., vol. IV, p. 24; cf vol. VII, p. 77.
16) ldem, vol. IV, p. 23.
17) ldem., vol. IV, pp. 24-25; c1 vol. VI, pp. 24-26.
18) I think al-Maskh is a kind of ape; see Vol. IV, p. 24. And do not confuse al-Maskh with al-Miskh.
19) ldem., Vol. IV, p. 24; and cf vol. IV, pp. 25-27.
20) See Sarton (0.), op. cii., vol. II, Part 2, pp. 354—355.
21) Mieli (A.), op. cii., p. 152.
22) Cassirer (E.), The Problem of Knowledge, translated by W. H. Woglom and Ch. W. Hendel, Yale University Press, New Haven, 1950, p. 137.
23) Sarton (G.), op. cii., vol. III, part 2, p. 1641.
24) See Darwin (Sir F.), The Life and Letters of’ Charles Darwin, vol. I, London, 1887, p. 289. Samuel Lee (1783-1852), of Queen’s, was professor of Arabic and Hebrew. In 1821, he issued a “Sylloge Librorum Orientalium”. In 1829, he translated “The Travel of Ibn Battuta”, see The Dictionary of National Biography, vol. XI, London, 1917, pp. 819-820.
25) Collingwood (R. C.), The Idea of’ Nature, Oxford, 1945, p. 82.

The Islamic Quarterly, London
Third Quarter 1983

[VerticalHairFactor]

Znam da copy-paste nije popularna disciplina, ali kada pronađem navode, mislim da vrijedi spomenuti.

Pre-modern thought

Primitive Evolutionary ideas have existed in the Muslim world ever since they were expressed by the Afro-Arab biologist Al-Jahiz (c. 776-869), who first described the struggle for existence, a precursor to natural selection.[12][13] Many other medieval Islamic philosophers and biologists later expressed evolutionary ideas, including Ibn Miskawayh, the Brethren of Purity,[14] Abu Rayhan Biruni,[15] Nasir al-Din Tusi[16] and Ibn Khaldun.[17][18]
[edit] Natural selection

The Mu'tazili scientist and philosopher al-Jahiz (c. 776-869) was the first of the Muslim biologists and philosophers to develop an early theory of evolution. He speculated on the influence of the environment on animals, considered the effects of the environment on the likelihood of an animal to survive, and first described the struggle for existence, a precursor to natural selection.[12][13][19] Al-Jahiz's ideas on the struggle for existence in the Book of Animals have been summarized as follows:

"Animals engage in a struggle for existence; for resources, to avoid being eaten and to breed. Environmental factors influence organisms to develop new characteristics to ensure survival, thus transforming into new species. Animals that survive to breed can pass on their successful characteristics to offspring."[citation needed]

In Chapter 47 of his India, entitled "On Vasudeva and the Wars of the Bharata," Abu Rayhan Biruni attempted to give a naturalistic explanation as to why the struggles described in the Mahabharata "had to take place." He explains it using natural processes that include biological ideas related to evolution, which has led several scholars to compare his ideas to Darwinism and natural selection. This is due to Biruni describing the idea of artificial selection and then applying it to nature:[20]

"The agriculturist selects his corn, letting grow as much as he requires, and tearing out the remainder. The forester leaves those branches which he perceives to be excellent, whilst he cuts away all others. The bees kill those of their kind who only eat, but do not work in their beehive. Nature proceeds in a similar way; however, it does not distinguish for its action is under all circumstances one and the same. It allows the leaves and fruit of the trees to perish, thus preventing them from realising that result which they are intended to produce in the economy of nature. It removes them so as to make room for others."

In the 13th century, Nasir al-Din al-Tusi explains how the elements evolved into minerals, then plants, then animals, and then humans. Tusi then goes on to explain how hereditary variability was an important factor for biological evolution of living things:[16]

"The organisms that can gain the new features faster are more variable. As a result, they gain advantages over other creatures. [...] The bodies are changing as a result of the internal and external interactions."

Tusi discusses how organisms are able to adapt to their environments:[16]

"Look at the world of animals and birds. They have all that is necessary for defense, protection and daily life, including strengths, courage and appropriate tools [organs] [...] Some of these organs are real weapons, [...] For example, horns-spear, teeth and claws-knife and needle, feet and hoofs-cudgel. The thorns and needles of some animals are similar to arrows. [...] Animals that have no other means of defense (as the gazelle and fox) protect themselves with the help of flight and cunning. [...] Some of them, for example, bees, ants and some bird species, have united in communities in order to protect themselves and help each other."

Tusi then explains how humans evolved from advanced animals:[16]

"Such humans [probably anthropoid apes] live in the Western Sudan and other distant corners of the world. They are close to animals by their habits, deeds and behavior. [...] The human has features that distinguish him from other creatures, but he has other features that unite him with the animal world, vegetable kingdom or even with the inanimate bodies."

[edit] Transmutation of species

Al-Dinawari (828-896), considered the founder of Arabic botany for his Book of Plants, discussed plant evolution from its birth to its death, describing the phases of plant growth and the production of flowers and fruit.[21]

Material in Ibn Miskawayh's al-Fawz al-Asghar and the Brethren of Purity's Encyclopedia of the Brethren of Purity (The Epistles of Ikhwan al-Safa) has been criticized as overenthusiastic.[22] Muhammad Hamidullah describes their evolutionary ideas as follows:

"[These books] state that God first created matter and invested it with energy for development. Matter, therefore, adopted the form of vapour which assumed the shape of water in due time. The next stage of development was mineral life. Different kinds of stones developed in course of time. Their highest form being mirjan (coral). It is a stone which has in it branches like those of a tree. After mineral life evolves vegetation. The evolution of vegetation culminates with a tree which bears the qualities of an animal. This is the date-palm. It has male and female genders. It does not wither if all its branches are chopped but it dies when the head is cut off. The date-palm is therefore considered the highest among the trees and resembles the lowest among animals. Then is born the lowest of animals. It evolves into an ape. This is not the statement of Darwin. This is what Ibn Maskawayh states and this is precisely what is written in the Epistles of Ikhwan al-Safa. The Muslim thinkers state that ape then evolved into a lower kind of a barbarian man. He then became a superior human being. Man becomes a saint, a prophet. He evolves into a higher stage and becomes an angel. The one higher to angels is indeed none but God. Everything begins from Him and everything returns to Him."[14]

English translations of the Encyclopedia of the Brethren of Purity were available from 1812.[23]

In the 14th century, Ibn Khaldun further developed the evolutionary ideas found in the Encyclopedia of the Brethren of Purity. The following statements from his 1377 work, the Muqaddimah, express evolutionary ideas:

"We explained there that the whole of existence in (all) its simple and composite worlds is arranged in a natural order of ascent and descent, so that everything constitutes an uninterrupted continuum. The essences at the end of each particular stage of the worlds are by nature prepared to be transformed into the essence adjacent to them, either above or below them. This is the case with the simple material elements; it is the case with palms and vines, (which constitute) the last stage of plants, in their relation to snails and shellfish, (which constitute) the (lowest) stage of animals. It is also the case with monkeys, creatures combining in themselves cleverness and perception, in their relation to man, the being who has the ability to think and to reflect. The preparedness (for transformation) that exists on either side, at each stage of the worlds, is meant when (we speak about) their connection.[24]

Plants do not have the same fineness and power that animals have. Therefore, the sages rarely turned to them. Animals are the last and final stage of the three permutations. Minerals turn into plants, and plants into animals, but animals cannot turn into anything finer than themselves."[25]

Numerous other Islamic scholars and scientists, including the polymaths Ibn al-Haytham and Al-Khazini, discussed and developed these ideas. Translated into Latin, these works began to appear in the West after the Renaissance and may have had an impact on Western philosophy and science.

Mislim ovo je samo da ilustriram mišljenja klasičnih, starih islamskih filozofa, koji su ujedno bili i istaknuti teolozi.

[shillen]

ako vam iko procita kompletan post e'o glave

[VerticalHairFactor]

U tom kontekstu, ajeti koji govore o makro-aspektu postanka, najmanje dozvoljavaju muslimanima da na bilo koji način danas dovode u pitanja modernu nauku i njena dostignuća - ne ideologiju i filozofiju u životu, koja je različita svakom od nas, nego čistu nepatvorenu nauku koja se bavi onim što može percipirati.

Dakle:
Zar ne znaju nevjernici da su nebesa i Zemlja bili jedna cjelina, pa smo ih Mi raskomadali, i da Mi od vode sve živo stvaramo? I zar neće vjerovati? (21:30) Sve živo, i čovjek je živo biće, dakle njegov prapočetak je iz te iste primordijalne supe u skladu sa zakonima, koje danas nauka sve detaljnije proučava, a stari učenjaci od prije milenija i više su objasnili svoje viđenje i razumijevanje tog nastanka iz vode postepenim evoluiranjem do onoga što je postao Adem, koji je postao odabran time što je u njega "od božijeg duha udahnuto" - inteligencija, moć da jedna nevidljiva praška kontemplira i ustremi svoje misli ka strahovitoj veličini Univerzuma.

..zatim se nebeskim visinama uputio dok je nebo još maglina bilo, pa njemu i Zemlji rekao: "Pojavite se milom ili silom!" – "Pojavljujemo se drage volje!" – odgovorili su, (41:11) Dakle nema mlade zemlje, drugovi evangelisti, evo prema ovoj religijskoj knjizi i nebesa i zemlja su nastali iz magline "ed-duhan", primordijalnog prvog "dima" odnosno "magline" kako Korkut prevodi. Nema dizajniranja pa puštanja igračaka u pogon prije 4000 godina. I nebesa, sav svemir (es-semawat; sve ono što je gore doslovce) i sama Zemlja su došli iz prastara primordijalne magline iz koje se sve formiralo. Danas nije tajna da nakon "provale" Univerzuma u postojanje, nakon što su se materija i antimaterija poništili, te je ostalo disproporcijalno materije u obliku osnovnih čestica, pa je gravitacija počela raditi i makro evolucija se počela dešavati. Evo ilustracije radi kako to moderna nauka objašnjava:



I kraj, u vidu "Big Cruncha", ili pak novog cikličnog odbijanja nakon tog sažimanja, jer se navodi da će Bog opet stvoriti Univerzum:

..onoga Dana kada smotamo nebesa kao što se smota list papira za pisanje. Onako kako smo prvi put iz ničega stvorili, tako ćemo ponovo iz ništa stvoriti – to je obećanje Naše, Mi smo doista kadri to učiniti. (41:104)

Dakle natuknice za makro i mikro evoluciju, postepeni razvoj, nastanak iz primordijalnog dima, prije toga rastavljanje nebesa (es-semawat, svega onoga što je sema, gore) i zemlje - stvaranje svega što je živo iz vode; obratiti pažnju na SVEGA ŠTO JE ŽIVO iz VODE, navođenje primjera o čovjeku koji u "hinun mined-dehri" jednom stadiju vremena "lem jekun šejen mazkura" nije bio pomena vrijedan, imenovanje čovjeka "halifom" onim koji dolazi kao jedan u nizu od halefe jahlufu i nasljeđuje one koji su prije bili, itd. U najmanju ruku, puno natuknica i puno materijala da upravo ljudi od prije 1200 godina dođu na vrlo slične ideje koje današnja nauka prihvata kao najvjerovatniji razvoj čovjeka, ali i univerzuma, koji evoluira, širi se (Mi smo nebesa moći svojom stvorili, i Mi ih uistinu širimo) i na kraju se reducira, propada, pa biva ponovo stvoren...
I onda odjednom ovi potonji muslimani više ne nalaze inspiraciju u tome, niti u ovim starim islamskim filozofima koji su "nadošli" na slične misli današnjoj oficijelnoj nauci, nego se k'o pjan plota drže evangelizma i neempirijski postulata u promatranju bliže i dalje okoline.
Ako to nije ironija, ne znam šta jeste.

[VerticalHairFactor]

ako vam iko procita kompletan post e'o glave

Pa, koga bude zanimalo, pročitat će - oni koji ostanu ušančeni, ostat će ušančeni, imaju pravo na to. Ali, eto, to i jeste srž foruma, da razgovaramo, razmjenjujemo ideje i mišljenja...

[shillen]

ja ne odbacujem mogucnost da je covjek nekada mogao izgledati malo drugacije nego sto to danas izgleda , ali da je "nastao od majmuna" je meni iskreno smijesno ....

[VerticalHairFactor]

ja ne odbacujem mogucnost da je covjek nekada mogao izgledati malo drugacije nego sto to danas izgleda , ali da je "nastao od majmuna" je meni iskreno smijesno ....

Pa, ni današnji naučnici ne kažu da je nastao od "majmuna", nego da mu je majmun rođak. Čovjek je sam po sebi majmunoliko stvorenje - stari islamski filozof Ibn-Haldun upravo to eksplicitno navodi, da su nam majmuni rođaci, možeš naći u mom ranijem postu gdje sam ga citirao, dok Al Jahiz navodi da je čovjek nastao od majmunolikih divljih ljudi, a Ibn-Miskavejh od majmunolikog stvora. Ibn Haldun navodi da se u njegovo vrijeme u dubokoj Africi moglo naći dosta dlakavih majmunolikih stvorova za koje ne znaš jesu li ljudi ili obični majmuni - Ibn-Haldun je malo bio i ljetopisac i pustolov, pokraj svoje naučne karijere. E, sad, to su ljudi koji su živjeli u periodu od 800 do 1000 godina prije Darvina, o kojima je Darvin učio, posebice o Al Jahizu, vrsnom stilisti čija se djela i danas uče na svim fakultetima orjentalistike i klasične arapske stilistike... U čemu je problem, i mi i majmuni i zmije i svinje i SVE ŽIVO kako se to lijepo u Kur'anu navodi, imamo isto ishodište, apsolutno isto porijeklo, iz vode, naučnici kažu iz primordijalne supe u kojoj se začeo život ili tako što su gradivne čestice doletjele sa nekim asteroidom (evo neki dan su otkrili da u asteroidu može biti tekuća voda) u vidu nebeskih "panspermija", ili pak udarima munja u primordijalnu supu punu gradivnih čestica. Kako se nešto desilo, eh, do toga će se možda jednog dana i doći, zašto ne, pa sve se odvija u skladu sa zakonima, i to Kur'an kaže, ne vidim gdje je problem. Zakoni prirode su tu, ferceraju, pametni ljudi ih izučavaju, blesavi i nazadni ne, samo je istinska ironija vidjeti da su istaknuti islamski učenjaci od prije milenija imali istovjetan stav sa današnjom naukom u pogledu evolutivnog karaktera svega što postoji, i za to pronalazili inspiraciju u učenjima Kur'ana, dok današnji pravdajući se istom inspiracijom, ubiše se da po svaku cijenu opovrgnu evoluciju, bez obzira na sve, gotovo eksplicitne ajete o zajedničkom izvoru postanka SVEGA ŽIVOG na Zemlji.
Jašta je čovjek nego prvi rođak sa majmunom, pa sličnost je više nego očigledna.

[bijela]

@VHF hvala na postovima,
ovo mi je trebalo da posložim u glavi neke stvari

[psydelija]

Bog je stvorio Adema/ Adama od ilovače, pa je onda stvorio Havu/Evu od njegovog rebra - to je religijsko objašnjenje ?

Moja teorija o nastanku čovjeka još nije kompletirana, još uvijek sam u fazi istraživanja.

vidi, u kuranu se spominje stvaranje coveka od kapi semena (sperme), prasine (ilovace) i vode.
sa naucne strane je potvrdjeno da se svi elementi koji se nalaze u tlu, takodje, nalaze i u ljudskom organizmu, u razlicitim proporcijama.., nauka je potvrdila i druga dva stava.

- zar (covek) nije bio kap semena koja se ubaci... (el kijame, 37)
- o ljudi, kako mozete sumnjati u ozivlenje, pa mi vas stvaramo od zemlje... (el hadzdz, 5)
- on od vode ljude stvara... (el furkan, 54)

ps: dobra je stvar sto istrazujes...

[VerticalHairFactor]

Nisam vidio text od VHFactor u kojem govori isto sto i ja ,jer smo izgleda u isto vrijeme postavljali.
Medjutim zanimljivo je tvrditi da se je na osnovu tih ajeta razvila teorija o nastanku svega zivog iz vode,jer nema se tu sta praviti teorija kad tu jasno pise i u isto je tad vjerovao i nepismeni beduin i najveci tefsirdzija jer to tako jasno pise! Dakle ,uloga islamskih naucnika nije bila od presudnog znacaja za tu teoriju vec su to bili ajeti sami.
E sad samo cekam da se pojavi neki smijesni lik sa jos smijesnijim linkom u kojem stoji kako je ove ajete "Muhamed napiso" na osnovu nakvih prastarih zapisa o evoluciji

Ne znam zašto silovati fakte. Činjenica je da je Al Jahiz tačno 1000 godina prije Darvina postavio apsolutno istovjetnu teoriju tom istom Darvinu. Također je činjenica da je Darvin prisustvovao časovima orjentalistike kod Samuela Leeja, koji je predavao arapski i hebrejski, te u kontekstu arapskog zacijelo spomenuo obavezno štivo (koje je to i danas, jer predstavlja klasičnu arapsku prozu na književnom jeziku) "Kitabul-Hajvan" od Al Jahiza. Činjenica je da je Al Jahiz na temeljima empirijske prakse, kroz promatranje i zaključivanje, a pozivajući se na, za njega, Božiju istinu o zajedničkom porijeklu svega živog na Zemlji, te na činjenicu da je sam čovjek prolazio kroz stadije u kojima je bilo i takvih da "pomena nije bio vrijedan", dakle niže stvorenje, neinteligentno i ne tako vrijedno, te još uvijek neprožeto "bi ruhillah" dahom Božijim, počeo sklapati kockice, tvrdeći da je sve počelo u vidu jednostavnih živih ćelija, pa biljkica i minerala, pa se sve razvijalo Božijom voljom, pa su vrste počele prelaziti u druge vrste, pa su se počele boriti za opstanak, pa su samo najjači opstajali - a u tome je Božija mudrost, po njemu, inače bi stvorenja propala jer bi opstalo puno onih koji bi narušili vitalnost vrste - pa je u tom procesu od divljeg majmunolikog čovjeka nastao Adem, u kojeg kad se stvaranje čovjeka upotpunilo, a on je bio rezultat tog upotpunjenja, udahnuto od "duha Božijeg" ruh je duh od rewh - dah, i tako je nastao čovjek, koji je zbog tih osobina postao različit od ostatka stvorenog; o tome su još više pisali Ibn-Haldun i Ibn-Miskavejh, te se, po njima, stvorio preduvjet za još viši oblik "veze sa ishodištem svega - Bogom" kroz poslanstvo, te je čovjek na taj način otišao još dalje u svojoj svijesti o postojanju, kao svrsishodnosti koja će se na kraju opet vratiti svom izvoru, te prema njegovoj volji biti opet vraćena u postojanje.
Dakle ovo su klasični islamski učenjaci, pobornici tzv. teističke evolucije, zaključili inspirirani Kur'anom. S tim da su naglašavali kako ništa ne može djelovati van Božijih zakona, te da i čovjek nije ništa drugo do dio sveopćeg postojanja, i da traženje znanja o tome predstavlja obavezu.
Danas se pak retro-evangelistički tipovi poput Haruna Jahje, Seida Nursija i ostalih suprotnosti klasičnim islamskim filozofima pozivaju na kur'ansku inspiraciju da pobiju rad ovih klasičnih od prije milenija i nešto.
Dakle, ajeti jesu natuknice, ali je na temelju toga klasična misao izrodila teoriju sličnu današnjoj Darvinovoj, a današnja nas siluje teorijama tamnog srednjeg vijeka - nakaradno i ironično, bar meni.
Ajeti su takvi kakvi jesu, natuknice i slike - istina negdje iznimno eksplicitne u određenom kontekstu. Ali kao što se jasno da vidjeti, do interpretacije je i razumijevanja.

[psydelija]

Pa, ni današnji naučnici ne kažu da je nastao od "majmuna", nego da mu je majmun rođak. Čovjek je sam po sebi majmunoliko stvorenje - stari islamski filozof Ibn-Haldun upravo to eksplicitno navodi, da su nam majmuni rođaci, možeš naći u mom ranijem postu gdje sam ga citirao, dok Al Jahiz navodi da je čovjek nastao od majmunolikih divljih ljudi, a Ibn-Miskavejh od majmunolikog stvora. Ibn Haldun navodi da se u njegovo vrijeme u dubokoj Africi moglo naći dosta dlakavih majmunolikih stvorova za koje ne znaš jesu li ljudi ili obični majmuni - Ibn-Haldun je malo bio i ljetopisac i pustolov, pokraj svoje naučne karijere. E, sad, to su ljudi koji su živjeli u periodu od 800 do 1000 godina prije Darvina, o kojima je Darvin učio, posebice o Al Jahizu.

iskreno ti hvala sto me
ko je "bolan(ice)" ibn chaldun da bi se on citirao?! moze njemu i darvinu majmun biti rodjak, meni niposto!
drugo, lik nije uopste bio islamski teolog, vec sociolog, ekonomista i politicar. znaci, ne poznaje materiju da bi mogao kapitalne (verske) zakljucke donositi.

Nevjerovatno je kako su se muslimani reducirali i od sebe napravili blijede kopije evangelističkih ekstremista, niječući svu svoju historiju i radove klasičnih muslimanskih učenjaka i filozofa od prije 1200 godina. Eh, da, sve je to počelo sa Seidom nursijem i Adnanom Oktarom, koji sa "kreacionistima" prave zajedničke kružoke i lupetaju o stvarima koje nemaju veze sa stvarnošću.
Malo je poznato da je evolucija i makro i mikro-kozmosa predstavljala prevalentno učenje rane islamske misli, zbog ajeta kao što je "Sve smo živo od vode stvorili", "Zar se čovjek ne sjeća perioda kada spomena nije bio vrijedan", itd. Za razliku od retrogradnih i neukih skolastika današnjice, tipa Haruna Jahje i sličnih, koji neće ostati upamćeni u historiji muslimana osim kao bijedne kopije svojih evangelističkih originala, stari islamski filozofi iz Zlatnog doba su uočili i teoretizirali o evoluciji gotovo istovjetno Darvinu, koji je inspiraciju i našao u najpoznatijem od njih Al Jahizu, o kojem je učio na časovima orjentalistike kod Samuela Leeja. Već sam o ovome postao na temi o evoluciji, tako da mi neće biti teško to uraditi i ovdje - mada je nivo rasprave bitno niži nego na NIN-ovoj temi tamo:
U vezi sa evolucijom, kod prvih islamskih skolastika to je bilo prevalentno mišljenje (od prije jednog milenija i jače), s tim da je to kod njih bila teistička evolucija (Božiji zakoni su takvi da se sve razvija i mijenja, pa i sam čovjek; u tom kontekstu navodili su za osnov ajete tipa: "I sve živo smo od vode stvorili", dakle i čovjek kao živo biće ima svoje najdalje porijeklo u toj vodi, u početku života, jer ovaj arapski oblik se zove hasr - obuhvaćanje svega), dakle oni su poprilično daleko otišli u teoretiziranju i nekim ograničenim empirijskim dokazima, no začuđujuće je da su doslovce postavili teoriju istovjetnu Darvinovoj, što ćeš vidjeti iz teksta dolje.

ko si ti da to pises o saidu nusriji... ma smesan si!!!
znas li ti uopste ko je taj lik u islamskom svetu ili te informacije resarsiras preko nekih ahmedijskih sajtova i gardijan clanaka?!
said (i kurdi) nusri je veoma poznat i priznati islamski teolog novije istorije diljem sveta i njegova su dela kapitalne vrednosti!
ti ljudi koji su mnogo pre darvina ustanovili slicne teze koje ce darvin kasnije potkrepiti su irelevantne licnosti u islamskom (verskom) ucenju!

ps: menja literaturu!