Evolucija

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statix
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#3251 Re: Evolucija

Post by statix » 13/04/2011 14:11

Dobra emisija, mada sam o membranama čitao ranije - eh, pa eto, ja razumijem da se na mnoge stvari ne može dati eksplicitan odgovor, što ne znači da se u ovom konkretnom slučaju neće doći do spoznaje kako mehanizam života od one vode pa do inteligentnog stvora ide. Sa druge strane, činjenica da smo svi sagrađeni od materijala koji su prasnuli u nekoj davno umrloj zvijezdi je meni fascinantnija od zakona prirode koje istražujemo i pokušavamo sagledati - a razvoj i promjena su isuviše očigledni, čak i za ove stare filozofe i učenjake, da bi mi danas bili na nekom tripu i zbog nedostajućih detalja zanemarili cjelinu. Eh, sad, da li će se naići na neke nove činjenice, na neke nove momente u ljudskom razvoju, ne znam, ali opet čovjek ne može biti van zakonitosti ovog svijeta, i sve promjene su posljedice tih zakonitosti.
S merkaom cekam drugu epizodu. :D

U zadnjoj recenici je kljucna stvar. Zasto bi sve sto istrazujemo u kosmosu trebalo imati "logicko" (mozda bolje naucno) objasnjenje, ali kad je biodiverzitet i narocito covjek u pitanju pribjegavamo supernaturalistickim objasnjenjima (god of the gaps) i bjezimo od otkrivanja mehanizama i prirodnih procesa koji su mogli dovesti do toga. Nije li ovo drugo mnogo interesantnije i kreativnije (narocito kada imamo na umu kolicinu vremena) od predodzbe da je svaka vrsta dizajnirana i kao takva spustena na Zemlju.


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GAU8
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#3252 Re: Evolucija

Post by GAU8 » 13/04/2011 15:19

statix wrote:
Dobra emisija, mada sam o membranama čitao ranije - eh, pa eto, ja razumijem da se na mnoge stvari ne može dati eksplicitan odgovor, što ne znači da se u ovom konkretnom slučaju neće doći do spoznaje kako mehanizam života od one vode pa do inteligentnog stvora ide. Sa druge strane, činjenica da smo svi sagrađeni od materijala koji su prasnuli u nekoj davno umrloj zvijezdi je meni fascinantnija od zakona prirode koje istražujemo i pokušavamo sagledati - a razvoj i promjena su isuviše očigledni, čak i za ove stare filozofe i učenjake, da bi mi danas bili na nekom tripu i zbog nedostajućih detalja zanemarili cjelinu. Eh, sad, da li će se naići na neke nove činjenice, na neke nove momente u ljudskom razvoju, ne znam, ali opet čovjek ne može biti van zakonitosti ovog svijeta, i sve promjene su posljedice tih zakonitosti.
S merkaom cekam drugu epizodu. :D

U zadnjoj recenici je kljucna stvar. Zasto bi sve sto istrazujemo u kosmosu trebalo imati "logicko" (mozda bolje naucno) objasnjenje, ali kad je biodiverzitet i narocito covjek u pitanju pribjegavamo supernaturalistickim objasnjenjima (god of the gaps) i bjezimo od otkrivanja mehanizama i prirodnih procesa koji su mogli dovesti do toga. Nije li ovo drugo mnogo interesantnije i kreativnije (narocito kada imamo na umu kolicinu vremena) od predodzbe da je svaka vrsta dizajnirana i kao takva spustena na Zemlju.
Ma kljucna je samo jedna nesretna izjava/posljedica, da se ljudi popale...
Znas ono: "ti ces meni rec' da sam ja post'o od majmuna" :) :) :) :)

Kad bismo to kako "izbacili" iz price TE bi se vrlo brzo prihvatila :)

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NIN
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#3253 Re: Evolucija

Post by NIN » 13/04/2011 15:52

VerticalHairFactor wrote:Izvini, crnokosa, bez uvrede ili želje da te omalovažim ili tvoj stav glede evolucije, svako pitanje koje postavljaš je legitimno i legalno (popularne riječi ovih dana) :D , ali možeš li mi reći kako je došlo do big banga - koristeći bilo koji matematički model - ili ako misliš da je univerzum cikličan, kako su se i zašto sudarile membrane u svom beskonačnom ciklusu sudaranja i kreiranja big-bangova, slobodno koristi bilo koji matematički model da nam odgovoriš na ovu vječitu tajnu...
Samo mala analogija na pitanje kako i zašto, evo matematika se bavi tim pitanjem puno češće nego pitanjem evolucije i nastankom prve samoreplicirajuće ćelije - mislim nastanak univerzuma je misterioznija stvar, nego nastanak prve samoreplicirajuće ćelije, i još ne znamo kako i zašto.
Mislim da ćemo otkriti mehanizam nastanka života puno prije nego skontamo kako i zašto sve ovo - u matematičkom smislu, naravno, jer u filozofskom i iskustvenom mnogi ljudi imaju svoje odgovore, kojih se drže.
Sa druge strane nepoznavanje ovog univerzalnog kako, ili nepoznavanje mehanizma nastanka prve samoreplicirajuće ćelije, ne sprečavaju nas da primjetimo da univerzumom vladaju određeni zakoni, od kojih je zakon evolucije i promjene očigledan i primjećen čak prije više od jednog milenija, da bi ljudi tipa El-Džahiza koji su koristili određenu vrstu empirijske metode, ograničeni nepostojanjem tehnologojie, na kraju izjavili vrlo kratko, konkretno u "Kitabul-Hajvan" (Knjizi o životinjama), koja je btw obavezno štivo za sve studente arapske proze na svim univerzitetima arapskog i orjentalistike u cijelom svijetu: "Bog je kadar jednu vrstu pretvoriti u drugu vrstu".
Ipak je ovo izjava koja datira od prije 1200 godina i očigledno je da su i stari ljudi primjetili promjene unutar jedne vrste, te čak nastanak određenih vrsta od drugih.
Bilo bi šteta da mi zbog nemogućnosti da odgovorimo na tajnu nastanka prvog životnog pulsa, odustanemo od posmatranja i shvatanja tih promjena i u sebi i u okolišu, kao što bi bila šteta da zbog nemogućnosti da shvatimo kako i zašto big bang, odustanemo od kompletne fizike i matematike.
:thumbup:

Nego, nisam prije cuo za El-Dzahiza i njegovu Kitabul-Hajvan. Pokusao sam malo procunjati po netu al' slabo. Nailazio sam u literaturi da su islamski mislioci Zlatnog doba gajili ideju o postepenom razvoju zivota, vjerovatno naslanjajuci se na Starogrcke ideje, ali nikad ne nadjoh nista konkretno o ovome pa, ako stignes, bas volio bih da malo opsirnije prozborimo o El-Dzahizu i drugima iz tog doba.
VerticalHairFactor wrote:...činjenica da smo svi sagrađeni od materijala koji su prasnuli u nekoj davno umrloj zvijezdi je meni fascinantnija od zakona prirode koje istražujemo i pokušavamo sagledati.
Ovo i mene fascinira. Nekad se uhvatim kako buljim u zvijezde na nocnom nebu razmisljajuci upravo o tome kako smo svi zapravo zvjezdana prasina, kako je to Sagan vec davno rekao. A kad smo kod Sagana onda njegov Cosmos serijal je neprevazidjen. Tople preporuke onima koji jos uvijek nisu imali prilike odgledati ovo pravo malo dokumentarno remek djelo.

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Bloo
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#3254 Re: Evolucija

Post by Bloo » 13/04/2011 15:55

NIN wrote: A kad smo kod Sagana onda njegov Cosmos serijal je neprevazidjen. Tople preporuke onima koji jos uvijek nisu imali prilike odgledati ovo pravo malo dokumentarno remek djelo.
:thumbup:

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crnokosa88
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#3255 Re: Evolucija

Post by crnokosa88 » 13/04/2011 16:28

Dakle, do prve samo replicirajuce molekule doslo je na ________________________________ nacin.
Hvala vam svima na odgovoru. :)

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nellington
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#3256 Re: Evolucija

Post by nellington » 13/04/2011 16:29

crnokosa88 wrote:Dakle, do prve samo replicirajuce molekule doslo je na ________________________________ nacin.
Hvala vam svima na odgovoru. :)
Haj'mo biti malo čudni i reći - stvorio je Stvoritelj. Prihvataš li evoluciju od tog koraka nadalje? :D

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Bloo
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#3257 Re: Evolucija

Post by Bloo » 13/04/2011 16:34

ima i ona druga teorija : 'I replicate you and you replicate me'. medu molekulama, umjesto samoreplikacije

mozda odgovor lezi u termodinamičkoj teoriji o porijeklu zivota, a ne u hemijskoj

al 'ta ja znam , ja sam zeko :roll:

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dr.Gonzo
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#3258 Re: Evolucija

Post by dr.Gonzo » 13/04/2011 16:41

crnokosa88 wrote:Dakle, do prve samo replicirajuce molekule doslo je na ________________________________ nacin.
Hvala vam svima na odgovoru. :)
Cinjenica je da to danas ne znamo, mozemo samo pretpostavljati, i takve pretpostavke postoje. Zato postoje brojne druge stvari koje znamo. Na kraju krajeva, evolucija se uopste ne bavi tim pitanjem.

Ne kontam uopste u cemu je problem, i koja je poenta postavljanja ovoga pitanja?

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Bloo
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#3259 Re: Evolucija

Post by Bloo » 13/04/2011 16:42

dr.Gonzo wrote:
crnokosa88 wrote:Dakle, do prve samo replicirajuce molekule doslo je na ________________________________ nacin.
Hvala vam svima na odgovoru. :)
Cinjenica je da to danas ne znamo, mozemo samo pretpostavljati, i takve pretpostavke postoje. Zato postoje brojne druge stvari koje znamo. Na kraju krajeva, evolucija se uopste ne bavi tim pitanjem.

Ne kontam uopste u cemu je problem, i koja je poenta postavljanja ovoga pitanja?

spuštanje evolucije do nivoa ćelija da bi dokazala svoju poentu? mi ne znamo kako je doslo do self replicating molekula ergo evolucija ne postoji vec samo the Architect

Bitte_Halt_ja_ja
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#3260 Re: Evolucija

Post by Bitte_Halt_ja_ja » 13/04/2011 16:44

Dakle, do prve samo replicirajuce molekule doslo je na nacin
tako sto je prvi bog to tako naredio. Kasniej su se pojavili razni bogovi, zeus, ra, kriscanski, islamski, ali onaj prvi je bio odgovoran za nastanak prve samoreplicirajuce molekul

posto nema dokaza da to nije tako, svi se slazemo da je moj odgovor tacan

:bih:

jOFLA
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#3261 Re: Evolucija

Post by jOFLA » 13/04/2011 17:09

crnokosa88 wrote:Dakle, do prve samo replicirajuce molekule doslo je na ________________________________ nacin.
Hvala vam svima na odgovoru. :)


Za sad se ne zna. Za razliku od kreacionizma, nauka se ne stidi reći da ne zna, jer nauka neprestano traži odgovore na pitanja, promatra, upoređuje, mjeri, čak i onda kad ne zna odgovoriti, ona ipak nastavlja tragati. Nije sramota ne znati, sramota je ne tražiti odgovore.

Nema ozbiljnog kreacioniste koji bi priznao da nešto ne zna. Kad kreacionist kaze "to je božje djelo" ili "božja volja", ne samo da je priznao da ne zna odgovore na pitanja, nego i da ih i ne želi znati. Daleko od tog da nauka zna sve, ali je nauka napravila i nastavlja progres, traži dalje. Jednom će i naći.

Nauka zna šta se dešavalo u prvim sekundama nakon Velikog praska, i ima ideju o tom kako je cjelokupan univerzum evoluirao do danas. I zaključak koji je nauka podcrtala je, da nikakva čuda i više sile nisu potrebni za univerzum da bi bio ovakakav kakvog ga vidimo. A kako čuda nisu potrebna da se objasne dešavanja nakon Velikog praska, nije onda ni potrebno uvoditi boga u objašnjenja.

To ne znači da neka viša sila ili svemoguće biće izvan domašaja ljudskog poimanja nije mogla napraviti univerzum i život. Međutim, Teorija evolucije se ionako ne bavi postankom života, niti je zanima kako je život nastao. Teorija evolucije dozvoljava mogućnost da je život stvorio bog. Ali pozivajući se samo na boga ništa ne doprinosi daljm traženjima odgovora.

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NIN
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#3262 Re: Evolucija

Post by NIN » 13/04/2011 17:42

crnokosa88 wrote:Dakle, do prve samo replicirajuce molekule doslo je na ________________________________ nacin.
Hvala vam svima na odgovoru. :)
Recimo to da se jos uvijek ne zna odgovor na ovo pitanje. Postoji mnogo hipoteza i pretpostavki gdje su neke vise, neke manje moguce ali jos uvijek nista toliko solidno da akademska zajednica proglasi jednu takvu hopotezu istinskom teorijom kao zvanicnom i najboljim objasnjenjem postanka zivota. Jendostavno govoreci, nema dovoljno dokaza da bi isti bili podvrgnuti naucnom metodu.

Ukratko, hopoteze o postanku se dijele na dvije kategorije: one koje zagovaraju da se zivot formirao tu na zemlji i hopoteze o dolasku vec formiranog zivota ili gradivnih elemenata iz svemira na zemlju. I jedna i druga se baziraju na solidnim pretpostavkama.

U slucaju tvog pitanja i cisto matematicki, a i po mom skromnom misljenju, prva je manje vjerovatna od ove druge. Razlog zasto tako mislim je radi toga sto je cinjenica da svemir buja gradivnim, vec hemijski formiranim elementima, na kojima je nas zivot baziran i oni su dakle svuda oko nas. Dokaza za ovo imas na pretek i vjerovatno ces pitati kako, a ja cu ti reci da se za ovo prvenstveno moramo zahvaliti von Fraunhoferu za njegov doprinos na polju koje cemo nazvati spektroskopijom, nevjerovatnim alatom za detekciju elemenata i hemijskih spojeva van nase atmosfere. I tako, spektroskopskom detekcijom smo dosli do saznanja da je nas svemir pun kompleksnih organiskih molekula.

Dakle, jedan od odgovora bi mogao glasiti da prvi korak ka samoreplicirajucim morekulama jeste zapravo sveprisutan svuda oko nas samo treba uperiti teleskop i procitati spektroskopske vrijednosti. :) Bas iz ovog razloga sam napomenuo da je vjerovatnoca organske geneze ne samo veca, ako ovo imamo na umu, nego i jako vjerovatna jer jedino sto je potrebno je pronaci planetu pogodnu za odredjen vid organske aktivnosti kao, recimo, sto je to slucaj sa ugljikom i planetom Zemljom, a zemalja slicnih nasoj ima bezbroj!

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horion_bosona
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#3263 Re: Evolucija

Post by horion_bosona » 13/04/2011 18:31

nellington wrote:
crnokosa88 wrote:Dakle, do prve samo replicirajuce molekule doslo je na ________________________________ nacin.
Hvala vam svima na odgovoru. :)
Haj'mo biti malo čudni i reći - stvorio je Stvoritelj. Prihvataš li evoluciju od tog koraka nadalje? :D
Sjajno poentiranje. Danas cak Vatikan ima zvanican stav da Teorija evolucije nije inkompatibilna sa krscanskim naukom. U pravoslavlju postoji sekta ziloti koji takodje ne spore TE. Ovdje su navedeni i ucenjaci iz zlatnog doba Islamske civilizacije koji su bili na tragu istovjetnog, kritickog posmatranja svijeta i promjena koji se u njemu desavaju.

Teorija evolucije objasnjava razvoj zivog svjeta i to mnogi oponenti ispustaju iz vida postavljajuci pitanje "kako nastade zivo od nezivog?".

Iako ateista citiracu Fra Milu Babiica
Ne može se racionalno dokazati da Bog postoji ili ne postoji. Tu dolazi vjera. Nekoga voliš ili ne voliš, nekome vjeruješ ili ne vjeruješ. Ne može se svesti vjeru na znanje. Neznanje je jedna razina, a vjera je drugo.


NIN druze, prosto ti se divim na energiji koju trosis vodeci raspravu s nekim ko ne moze drugog (drugacijeg) cuti.

Crnokosa zasto ne otvoris temu "TEORIJA EVOLUCIJE: UVALA BOROVA" gdje bi mogla na dugo i na siroko da iznosis svoje nazovi tvdnje?

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#3264 Re: Evolucija

Post by VerticalHairFactor » 13/04/2011 18:48

Drug NIN, u vezi sa El-Džahizom ima par solidnih tekstova na netu, evo prenosim jedan dolje.
U vezi sa evolucijom, kod prvih islamskih skolastika to je bilo prevalentno mišljenje (od prije jednog milenija i jače), s tim da je to kod njih bila teistička evolucija (Božiji zakoni su takvi da se sve razvija i mijenja, pa i sam čovjek; u tom kontekstu navodili su za osnov ajete tipa: "I sve živo smo od vode stvorili", dakle i čovjek kao živo biće ima svoje najdalje porijeklo u toj vodi, u početku života, jer ovaj arapski oblik se zove hasr - obuhvaćanje svega), dakle oni su poprilično daleko otišli u teoretiziranju i nekim ograničenim empirijskim dokazima, no začuđujuće je da su doslovce postavili teoriju istovjetnu Darvinovoj, što ćeš vidjeti iz teksta dolje. Danas su muslimani u ovom pogledu u potpunosti preuzeli evangelističku dogmu, što je apsurd, zar ne, prije 1200 godina su bili više in nego danas, štaviše ja se ne mogu "opasuljiti" od tipova poput Haruna Jahje i sličnih, mislim stvarno ne kontam u čemu je sva fama sa evolucijom, kad su je u Bagdadu u 9. stoljeću po džamijama i kružocima znanja navodili kao proces stvaranja i jedinstva svega živog. El-Džahiz se nije oslanjao na grčka učenja, on je bio potaknut spomenutim ajetom, tvrdeći da je život krenuo iz sitnih ćelija i "minerala", pa se prilagođavao i razvijao - naravno prema njemu sve je to Božiji zakon i volja - postajao kompleksniji da bi danas imali to što imamo. Drugi i najveći podsticaj za njega bila je boja kože - on je bio afričkog porijekla - dogurao je do halifinog dvora kao učitelj, ali stare predrasude i rasizam, iako strogo zabranjene islamom jer je "Bog stvorio ljude i plemena da se upoznaju, a najbolji je onaj koji se najviše Boga boji", odnosno u hadisu poslanik kaže "Odbacite 'asabijju (privrženost na temelju plemena, rase ili bilo čega drugog), ona je pogan", i dalje su se promaljale. E, onda je on počeo promatrati pripadnike arapskih plemena i skontao da isto pleme, čija dva ogranka žive na različitim mjestima duže vrijeme, rađaju djecu od kojih su ona sjevernije bijelja a ova južnije tamna, gotovo crna - i onda je napisao Kitabul-Hajvan. Njegovi istomišljenici, koji su također teoretizirali na tu temu su: Ibn-Miskavejh, El-Biruni, Tusi i nadaleko čuveni Ibn-Haldun (za neke muslimanske skolastike "evlija" - božiji prijatelj u prenesenom značenju, jedan od najvećih sunijskih učenjaka); sve u svemu krema prve generacije islamskih filozofa i učenjaka.
Ukratko, tekst je od Mehmeta Bayraktara (na engleskom), na arapskom ima dosta detaljnije, ali i ovo je dostatno:

Although al-Nazzam made the first steps in the field of biological evolutionary thought in the history of science, for the first time the theory of biological evolution in its complete form was presented by a great early zoologist, al-Jahiz in the ninth century. He was the first to originate it. Al-Jahiz’s theory is an example of scientific revolution and innovation that has had reverberations into the farthest reaches of human thought. It is fair to say that many problems of the philosophy of Nature appeared in a new light after the revolution of al-Jahiz and his successors. Before describing al-Jahiz’s own views and his influence upon Muslim and European thinkers, especially upon Lamarck and Darwin, I want to give some biographical and bibliographical accounts.

a. Biographical and Bibliographical Notices

Al-Jahiz’s complete name is Abu ‘Uthman Amr bin Bahr al-Fukaymi al-
Basri. He owes his sobriquet (al-Jahiz = the goggle-eyed) to a malformation of his eyes. He was born at Basra about 776. Little is known of his childhood, except that, from an early age, an invincible desire for learning and a remarkably inquisitive mind urged him towards a life of independence and, much to his family’s despair, idleness. Mixing with groups which gathered at diflérent mosques to learn, attending as a spectator the philological enquiries conducted on the Mirbad and following lectures by the most learned men and scholars of his time on philology, lexiography and poetry, namely al-Asma’i, Abu ‘Ubayda, Abu Zayd, he soon acquired real mastery of the Arabic language along with the usual and traditional culture."1" And later his precious intelligence won him admittance to Mu’tazili circles and bourgeois salons, where conversation, often light, was also
animated by philosophical, theological, scientific problems. His penetrating observation of the various elements in a mixed population increased his knowledge of human nature, whilst reading books of all kinds which were beginning to circulate in Basra gave him some outlook onto the outside world. His early literary activity won him the compliments of al-Ma’mun and thereby that consecration by the capital covetted by so many provincials eager to have their talent recognized and so reach the court and establish themselves.

From then on, without completely abandoning Basra, al-Jahiz frequently stayed for long periods in Baghdad and later in Samarra, devoting himself to literary and scientific works. For some time he was the teacher of al-Mutawakkil’s children. Although information about his private and public life is not readily forthcoming from either his biographer or himself, it appears from what knowledge we have that al-Jahiz held no official post and took on no regular employment. He admits, however, that he received considerable sums for the dedications of his books and we know that for a time at least, he was made an allowance by the diwan. In Baghdad, later on, he found a rich store of learning which enabled him to broaden his outlook and perfect his own philosophical and theological doctrine, which he had begun to elaborate under the supervision of the great mu tazalis of the day, of whom al-Nazzarn and Thumana b. Ashras, who seems to have had a strong influence on him, should be placed in the first rank.

Towards the end of his life, suffering from hemiplegia, he retired to his hometown, where he died in 869 (225) "2".
As in politics, so in theology al-Jahiz was a mu’tazili. He was also a famous Muslim prose writer. His place in the development of Muslim thought is far from negligible. He was the founder ofa sect named after him, al-Jahiziyya "3". He was a genius in the science of zoology. And he knew how to obtain ammonia and salmiac from animal offals by dry distillation "4"
Being a polyhistor and man of letters, al-Jahiz had a very great output like many Muslim writers. A catalogue of his works lists nearly 200 titles of which only about a third have been preserved in their entirety; about fifty thers have been partially preserved, whilst the rest seem irremediably lost "5". His most important book is The Book of Animals (Kitab al-Hayawan) "6". Iahiz’s method was empirical and scientific, not only discursive, as Sarton elieves "7". That is why Asin Palacios says, “Como el mismo lo insinua en el rologo (I, 6), puso a contribucion para redactarlo los libros de los filosofos, os relatos y noticias de viajeros, marinos, etc. Y Ia observacion o experiencia lirecta.” The scientific value of this book is great; and it is "8", as Asin Palacios ays, a real contribution to the history of science, namely to zoology. The main source of al-Jahiz’s Book of Animals is the book on zoology of his )recursors and contemporary, ‘Abd al-Malik bin Qurayb al-Asma’i (739- 831) "9". As far as I knowm this book is the first zoological, book in the history of slamic thought. The Kitab al-Hayawan was the object of many studies, and had great influence upon later Muslim scientists, and via them upon European thinkers as well. And it became the source for later books on oology. Al-Jahiz’s many sentences are quoted by Ikhwan al-Safa’ and Ibn

Miskawayh, and many passages are quoted by Zakariyya’ al-Qazwini (1203-1282) in his ‘A/a’ ib al-Maklzluqat, and by Mustawfial-Qazwini (1281- ?) in his Nuzkat ai-Qulub; and al-Damiri in his Hayat al-Hayawan’ "10".

b. Al-Jahiz’s View on Biological Evolution

After a long study of animals, Al-Jahiz was the first to put forward his view of biological evolution in his Book ofAnimals, which contains the germs of many later evolutionary theories (animal embryology, evolution, adaptation, animal psychology and sociology) "11".
First of all, al-Jahiz’s attempts were made in a truly scientific spirit to classifV animals in a linear series, beginning with the simplest and continuing to the most complex; and at the same time, he arranged them into groups having marked similarities; and these groups were divided into sub-groups to trace the ultimate unit in the species "12"
An early exponent of the zoological and anthropological sciences, al- Jahiz discovered and recognized the effect of environmental factors on animal life; and he also observed the transformation of animal species under different factors. And in many remarkable passages of his book, he also described for us the struggle of existences for survival, its aim and mechanisms and value in a scientific way, as well as in a folkloric way. As to know the mechanistiis of evolution, al-Jahiz described three mechanisms. These are Struggle for Existence, Transformation of species into each other, and Environmental Factors.
Let us now see the mechanisms, as briefly as possible.
Struggle for Existence: al-Jahiz placed the greatest weight on evolution by the struggle for existence, or, in a larger sense, by natural selection. It operates in conjunction with the innate desire for conservation and permanence of the ego. According to al-Jahiz, between every individual existence, there is a natural war for life. The existence are in struggle with each other. Al-Jahiz’s theory of struggle for existence may accordingly be defined as a differential death rate between two variant class of existence, the lesser death rate characterizing the better adapted and stronger class. And for al-Jahiz, the struggle for existence is a divine law; God makes food for some bodies out of some other bodies’ death. He says, “The rat goes out for collecting his food, and it searches and seizes them. It eats some other inferior animals, like small animals and small birds. . . it hides its babies in disguised underground tunnels for protecting them and himself against the attack of the snakes and of the birds. Snakes like eating rats very much. As for the snakes, they defend themselves from the danger of the beavers and hyenas; which are more powerful than themselves. The hyena can frighten the fox, and the latter frightens all the animals which are inferior to it. ...

this is the law that some existences are the food for others. . . . All small animals eat smaller ones; and all big animals cannot eat bigger ones. Men with each other are like animals. . . God makes cause of some bodies life, “ "13" from some bodies death and vice versa. And according to al-Jahiz, the struggle does not exist only between the members of different species, but also between the members of the same species "14".
From what al-Jahiz has said, we can make an assertion that God has created Nature in a prodigal reproductive character and He has also established a law, which is the biological struggle for existence in order to keep it within a limited ratio. Otherwise, the disorder could appear in Nature and it could lose some of its riches and species. We can see the germs of Darwin’s and the Neo-Darwinian’s theory of Natural Selection in this remarkable passage which we have mentioned above.
Transformation of Species: Al-Jahiz, as later Lamarck and Darwin, for example, believes that the transformation of species and mutation is possible. The transformation operates in conjunction with the effect of environmental factors. And he asserted that the original forms branched out into new forms of species by gradually developing new characteristics which helped them to survive environmental conditions. He says, “People said different things about the existence of al-miskh (the original form of quadrupeds) "15". Some accepted its evolution and said that it gave existence to dog, wolf, fox and their similars. The members of this family came from this form (al-miskk).” "16"
And, he adds that God’s will and power is the main causal factor in the transformation, and God can transform any species into another at any time He wants. So al-Jahiz defends the transformation of species and mutation, due to different factors, including God’s will’7, as we have said above. Here al-Jahiz got some of his material from the sayings of different learned men.
As for the effect of environmental factors on species, al-Jahiz believes that the food, climate, shelter and other factors have some biological and psychological effects on species. And for him, these factors also lead the species to a hard struggle for survival. In a changed environment, there is also a change in some characters having survival value. The process of changing characters in succeeding generations makes the organisms better adapted to their environment. They thus survive and get a chance to breed and transmit their characteristics to their offspring. So, al-Jahiz based his theory upon the notion of the use and disuse of organs in the adaptation of animals to their environment.
Al-Jahiz says, “Without doubt, we have seen that some Nabatheen navigators resembled the ape in some geographical environment, likely we have also seen some people from Morocco and have found them as like as al-maskh "18", except for a little difference.... And it is possible that the polluted air and water, and dust made this change in the character of these Moroccans. . . . If this effect goes on more and more in them, those changes in their bristles, ears, colours, and form (similar to the ape) increase more.... “ "19"
Such are the main mechanisms of al-Jahiz’s biological evolution. Now, I will speak about al-Jahiz’s great influence upon Muslim and European scientists. Al-Jahiz’s zoology and theory of biological evolution have profoundly affected the development of zoology and biology. As we have said before, al-Jahiz’s biological evolution had some direct influences upon Ikhwan al-Safa, and other illustrious philosophers, such as Ibn Miskawayh, al-Biruni, Ibn Tufayl, with whom al-Jahiz’s theory acquired a new sense, in that they made of it two new doctrines: a cosmological one, because it was applied to the phenomena of the whole universe; and a sociological one, because it was applied to social phenomena. Moreover, Ibn Miskawayh and Ibn Khaldun explain the true meaning of Prophecy and prove it by such a theory. Thus, Jahiz’s pure biological evolution became the source of different doctrines in later Islamic thought, such as sociological, metaphysical and cosmological evolutionisms.
On the other hand, al-Jahiz’s theory has been repeated by Muslim zoologists and naturalists, especially by al-Zakariyya’ al-Qazwini, in his ‘Aja’ ib al-Makhluqat, Mustawfi al-Qazwini in his Nuzhat al-Qulub, and al- Damiri in his Hayat al-Hayawan, without mentioning other literary persons, such as al-Masudi and Ibn Qutayba.
As for the influence of al-Jahiz on European thinkers, it has become the subject of two main studies: “Der Darwinismus im X und XIX Jahrhundert” of Fr. Dieterici (Leipzig, 1878) and “Darwinistisches bei Gahiz” of E. Wiedemann (sitzungsbericht der physikalisch-medizinischen Sozietaet in Erlangen, 47, 1915). Previous to me, they found a great similarity between al-Jahiz and Darwin. Indeed, Darwin and his precursors took up the theory of al-Jahiz as the base for the essentiality of their evolutionary theories, and they formulated it in a more scientific way in the context of eighteenth and nineteenth centuries development of science. Perhaps the only main difference b~etween al-Jahiz’s theory and modern theory is in ideology: al-Jahiz’s theory is theologic and more transcendental in this sense that he accepts that the first cause of evolution in living organisms is God and that the other factors are secondary; while Lamarck, Darwin and others’ evolution is more immanent and materialistic. Although the mechanistic explanations of the theories are more or less the same, Darwin and other modern scientists differ from al-Jahiz and other Muslim writers in ideological interpretation of the theory.
How has Jahiz’s idea been transmitted to the Europeans? Al-Jahiz and other evolutionist Muslim thinkers influenced Darwin and his predecessors in several ways. Before the flourishing of C. Linnaeus (1707-1778), Buffon (1707-1788), E. Darwin (1731-1802),J. B. Lamarck (1744-1829), and Ch. Darwin (1809-1882), and long before the rise of the school of Natural Philosophy in Germany, al-Jahiz and others were known to Europeans through the translation of their own works and studies on them by Europeans. For example, al-Damiri’s book Hayat al-Hayawan was partially translated into Latin by a Jew, called Abraham Echellensis (d. Italy 1664) and published in Paris in 1617. This book contains many passages taken from al-Jahiz’s Kitab al-Hayawan. Al-Nuwayri’s JVihaya was studied by D’Herbelot (1625—1695) in his Bibliotheca Orientalis, and later byJ. Heyman (?—1737). Ibn Tufayl’s Hay Ibn raqzan, which contains the philosophy of evolution, was first published by Edward Pocockes, Sr. (1604-1690), together with a Latin translation published by Edward ~Pococke, Jr. (1648-1727) in Oxford in 1671 (second edition, Oxford, 1700) "20". Zakariyya’ al-Qazwini’s cosmography, ‘Aja’ ib al-Makhluqat was published by F. Wustenfeld in 2 volumes in Gottingen in 1848-49; and Kitab Talkhis al-A thar of Bakuwi, a summary of al-Qazwini’s book was translated into French and published by De Guignes in Paris, in 1789 "21". In fact, his book also contains many ideas from al-Jahiz. And A. L. de Chezy translated al-Qazwini’ s ‘Aja’ib, and his translation was published in 1806 (first publication) by S. de Sacy, in his Chresiomathie A rabe. There is no doubt that the great evolutionist sufi, Mawlana, had already influenced Goethe, who called him “a Darwinian before Darwin” "22" his theory of metamorphosis has profbundly affected the development of biology. In any case, Islamic zoology penetrated the West as early as the seventeenth century "23". Some Europeans knew Arabic and they could read directly from the Muslim scientists’ books; for example, Darwin was himself initiated into Islamic culture in Cambridge under ajewish orientalist called Samuel Lee "24". We think that what we have said can show Muslim influence upon Europeans. Some further comparative study can be undertaken in this subject, in order to bring to light the influence of Muslim evolutionist thinkers upon the Europeans and the transmission of their ideas to the West.
Al-Jahiz’s theory of evolution was something very new in the history of science, and there was nothing written previous to it. Although Greek philosophers like Empedocles and Aristotle spoke of the change in Nature, in plants and animals, they never made the first steps on the field of the future theory of evolution of the Muslims. Their concept of change was only a concept of simple change and motion, nothing more than that. And by the concept of change, they never designed explicitly or implicitly a concept of evolution: “The World of Nature is thus for Aristotle, a world of self-moving thing, as it is for the Ionians and for Plato. . .. Nature as such is process, growth, change. This process is a development, i.e. the changing takes successive forms, a, b, y, . . . in which each is the potentiality of its successor, but it is not what we call ‘evolution’, because for Aristotle, the kinds of change and of structure exhibited in the world of nature form an eternal repertory, and the items in the repertory are related logically, not temporally, among themselves"25"”.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) Pellat (Ch.), “Al-Dlahiz”, in RI2, vol. II, p. 385.
2) Ibn ‘Asakir, MMIJ, IX, pp. 203—217.
3) Khaiib Baghdadi, XII, pp. 212-222.
4) Sarton (G.), Iniroduciion in ihe Hisiorp of Science, vol. I, Washington, 1927, p. 597.
5) Pellat (Ch.), “Gahiziana”, in Arabica, 1956/2; cf Brockelmann (C.), GAL, SI., 241ff
6) The Book of .4niinals was published in 7 volumes, in Cairo, 1323—1324.
7) Sarton says: “His most important work is The Book oj.-Inimals, a very discursive compilation, the purpose of which is theological and folkloric, rather than scientific , Sarton, op. cii., p. 597. Sarton’sjudgement is not true; indeed, many of the knowledges given in the 1)00k are the result of his personal observation and his experiences, as al-Jahiz himself says in several chapters.
8) Asin Palacios (M.), “El ‘Libro de los Animales’ deJahiz”, in isi.’;, vol. 14 1930, p. 21.
9) Some parts of’ his book are published by R. Geyer in Wien, in 1887; and by A. Haffner in Wien, in 1895—1896; the book on the creation of man is still unpublished.
10) It is very interesting to notice that a summary of’ al-Damiri’s and other Muslim scientists’ books was translated into Latin by Abraham Echellensis (d. Italy 1664) and was published under the title “Dc Proprietatibus et Virtutibus Medicis Animalium” in Paris, in 1617. So, that is to say, sometime before the appearance ofbarwin’s precursors, such as F. Redi (1626—1698), C. Linnaeus (1707—1778), Buflon (1707—1788), Lamarck (1744—1829). the idea of evolution of Muslims was penetrated in West and this explains why the first evolutionists came from France. See Mieli (A.), La Science .1 robe ei Son Role dan l’Et’oluiion Scienijfique Mondiale, Leiden, Brill, 1938, pp. 263-264, n. 3; and extracts have been translated into French by A.J. Silvestre dc Sacy, Oppianos II, Strasbourg, 1787; see Sarton (G.), Vol. III, Part II, p. 1641. 11) Pella (Ch.), ‘Al-Djahiz”, op. cii., p. 386; cf Sarton, op. cii., p. 597.
12) Al-Jahiz, Kiiab al-Ha vawan, Vol. I, Cairo, 1909, p. 13, and see also different chapters of the volumes.
13) ldem., Vol. VI, pp. 133—34; and there are many passages in different volumes illustrating the struggle for existence. See VI, 139; VII, 47, 80. 14. ldem., vol. VII, pp. 47-48.
15) According to some opinions, this original form of animal was lost because of earthquakes and floods. See al-Jahiz, op. cit., vol. IV, p. 24; cf vol. VII, p. 77.
16) ldem, vol. IV, p. 23.
17) ldem., vol. IV, pp. 24-25; c1 vol. VI, pp. 24-26.
18) I think al-Maskh is a kind of ape; see Vol. IV, p. 24. And do not confuse al-Maskh with al-Miskh.
19) ldem., Vol. IV, p. 24; and cf vol. IV, pp. 25-27.
20) See Sarton (0.), op. cii., vol. II, Part 2, pp. 354—355.
21) Mieli (A.), op. cii., p. 152.
22) Cassirer (E.), The Problem of Knowledge, translated by W. H. Woglom and Ch. W. Hendel, Yale University Press, New Haven, 1950, p. 137.
23) Sarton (G.), op. cii., vol. III, part 2, p. 1641.
24) See Darwin (Sir F.), The Life and Letters of’ Charles Darwin, vol. I, London, 1887, p. 289. Samuel Lee (1783-1852), of Queen’s, was professor of Arabic and Hebrew. In 1821, he issued a “Sylloge Librorum Orientalium”. In 1829, he translated “The Travel of Ibn Battuta”, see The Dictionary of National Biography, vol. XI, London, 1917, pp. 819-820.
25) Collingwood (R. C.), The Idea of’ Nature, Oxford, 1945, p. 82.

The Islamic Quarterly, London
Third Quarter 1983

VerticalHairFactor
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#3265 Re: Evolucija

Post by VerticalHairFactor » 13/04/2011 19:17

Znam da copy-paste nije popularna disciplina, ali kada pronađem navode, mislim da vrijedi spomenuti.

Pre-modern thought

Primitive Evolutionary ideas have existed in the Muslim world ever since they were expressed by the Afro-Arab biologist Al-Jahiz (c. 776-869), who first described the struggle for existence, a precursor to natural selection.[12][13] Many other medieval Islamic philosophers and biologists later expressed evolutionary ideas, including Ibn Miskawayh, the Brethren of Purity,[14] Abu Rayhan Biruni,[15] Nasir al-Din Tusi[16] and Ibn Khaldun.[17][18]
[edit] Natural selection

The Mu'tazili scientist and philosopher al-Jahiz (c. 776-869) was the first of the Muslim biologists and philosophers to develop an early theory of evolution. He speculated on the influence of the environment on animals, considered the effects of the environment on the likelihood of an animal to survive, and first described the struggle for existence, a precursor to natural selection.[12][13][19] Al-Jahiz's ideas on the struggle for existence in the Book of Animals have been summarized as follows:

"Animals engage in a struggle for existence; for resources, to avoid being eaten and to breed. Environmental factors influence organisms to develop new characteristics to ensure survival, thus transforming into new species. Animals that survive to breed can pass on their successful characteristics to offspring."[citation needed]

In Chapter 47 of his India, entitled "On Vasudeva and the Wars of the Bharata," Abu Rayhan Biruni attempted to give a naturalistic explanation as to why the struggles described in the Mahabharata "had to take place." He explains it using natural processes that include biological ideas related to evolution, which has led several scholars to compare his ideas to Darwinism and natural selection. This is due to Biruni describing the idea of artificial selection and then applying it to nature:[20]

"The agriculturist selects his corn, letting grow as much as he requires, and tearing out the remainder. The forester leaves those branches which he perceives to be excellent, whilst he cuts away all others. The bees kill those of their kind who only eat, but do not work in their beehive. Nature proceeds in a similar way; however, it does not distinguish for its action is under all circumstances one and the same. It allows the leaves and fruit of the trees to perish, thus preventing them from realising that result which they are intended to produce in the economy of nature. It removes them so as to make room for others."

In the 13th century, Nasir al-Din al-Tusi explains how the elements evolved into minerals, then plants, then animals, and then humans. Tusi then goes on to explain how hereditary variability was an important factor for biological evolution of living things:[16]

"The organisms that can gain the new features faster are more variable. As a result, they gain advantages over other creatures. [...] The bodies are changing as a result of the internal and external interactions."

Tusi discusses how organisms are able to adapt to their environments:[16]

"Look at the world of animals and birds. They have all that is necessary for defense, protection and daily life, including strengths, courage and appropriate tools [organs] [...] Some of these organs are real weapons, [...] For example, horns-spear, teeth and claws-knife and needle, feet and hoofs-cudgel. The thorns and needles of some animals are similar to arrows. [...] Animals that have no other means of defense (as the gazelle and fox) protect themselves with the help of flight and cunning. [...] Some of them, for example, bees, ants and some bird species, have united in communities in order to protect themselves and help each other."

Tusi then explains how humans evolved from advanced animals:[16]

"Such humans [probably anthropoid apes] live in the Western Sudan and other distant corners of the world. They are close to animals by their habits, deeds and behavior. [...] The human has features that distinguish him from other creatures, but he has other features that unite him with the animal world, vegetable kingdom or even with the inanimate bodies."

[edit] Transmutation of species

Al-Dinawari (828-896), considered the founder of Arabic botany for his Book of Plants, discussed plant evolution from its birth to its death, describing the phases of plant growth and the production of flowers and fruit.[21]

Material in Ibn Miskawayh's al-Fawz al-Asghar and the Brethren of Purity's Encyclopedia of the Brethren of Purity (The Epistles of Ikhwan al-Safa) has been criticized as overenthusiastic.[22] Muhammad Hamidullah describes their evolutionary ideas as follows:

"[These books] state that God first created matter and invested it with energy for development. Matter, therefore, adopted the form of vapour which assumed the shape of water in due time. The next stage of development was mineral life. Different kinds of stones developed in course of time. Their highest form being mirjan (coral). It is a stone which has in it branches like those of a tree. After mineral life evolves vegetation. The evolution of vegetation culminates with a tree which bears the qualities of an animal. This is the date-palm. It has male and female genders. It does not wither if all its branches are chopped but it dies when the head is cut off. The date-palm is therefore considered the highest among the trees and resembles the lowest among animals. Then is born the lowest of animals. It evolves into an ape. This is not the statement of Darwin. This is what Ibn Maskawayh states and this is precisely what is written in the Epistles of Ikhwan al-Safa. The Muslim thinkers state that ape then evolved into a lower kind of a barbarian man. He then became a superior human being. Man becomes a saint, a prophet. He evolves into a higher stage and becomes an angel. The one higher to angels is indeed none but God. Everything begins from Him and everything returns to Him."[14]

English translations of the Encyclopedia of the Brethren of Purity were available from 1812.[23]

In the 14th century, Ibn Khaldun further developed the evolutionary ideas found in the Encyclopedia of the Brethren of Purity. The following statements from his 1377 work, the Muqaddimah, express evolutionary ideas:

"We explained there that the whole of existence in (all) its simple and composite worlds is arranged in a natural order of ascent and descent, so that everything constitutes an uninterrupted continuum. The essences at the end of each particular stage of the worlds are by nature prepared to be transformed into the essence adjacent to them, either above or below them. This is the case with the simple material elements; it is the case with palms and vines, (which constitute) the last stage of plants, in their relation to snails and shellfish, (which constitute) the (lowest) stage of animals. It is also the case with monkeys, creatures combining in themselves cleverness and perception, in their relation to man, the being who has the ability to think and to reflect. The preparedness (for transformation) that exists on either side, at each stage of the worlds, is meant when (we speak about) their connection.[24]

Plants do not have the same fineness and power that animals have. Therefore, the sages rarely turned to them. Animals are the last and final stage of the three permutations. Minerals turn into plants, and plants into animals, but animals cannot turn into anything finer than themselves."[25]

Numerous other Islamic scholars and scientists, including the polymaths Ibn al-Haytham and Al-Khazini, discussed and developed these ideas. Translated into Latin, these works began to appear in the West after the Renaissance and may have had an impact on Western philosophy and science.

Mislim ovo je samo da ilustriram mišljenja klasičnih, starih islamskih filozofa, koji su ujedno bili i istaknuti teolozi.

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#3266 Re: Evolucija

Post by lolita_xx » 13/04/2011 20:20

NIN wrote:
crnokosa88 wrote:Dakle, do prve samo replicirajuce molekule doslo je na ________________________________ nacin.
Hvala vam svima na odgovoru. :)
Recimo to da se jos uvijek ne zna odgovor na ovo pitanje. Postoji mnogo hipoteza i pretpostavki gdje su neke vise, neke manje moguce ali jos uvijek nista toliko solidno da akademska zajednica proglasi jednu takvu hopotezu istinskom teorijom kao zvanicnom i najboljim objasnjenjem postanka zivota. Jendostavno govoreci, nema dovoljno dokaza da bi isti bili podvrgnuti naucnom metodu.

Ukratko, hopoteze o postanku se dijele na dvije kategorije: one koje zagovaraju da se zivot formirao tu na zemlji i hopoteze o dolasku vec formiranog zivota ili gradivnih elemenata iz svemira na zemlju. I jedna i druga se baziraju na solidnim pretpostavkama.
ponavljam se, no evo zanimljiv rad o mogućem porijeklu života na zemlji...

Fossils of Cyanobacteria in CI1 Carbonaceous Meteorites
Richard B. Hoover, Ph.D. NASA/Marshall Space Flight Center

Synopsis

Richard Hoover has discovered evidence of microfossils similar to Cyanobacteria, in freshly fractured slices of the interior surfaces of the Alais, Ivuna, and Orgueil CI1 carbonaceous meteorites. Based on Field Emission Scanning Electron Microscopy (FESEM) and other measures, Richard Hoover has concluded they are indigenous to these meteors and are similar to trichomic cyanobacteria and other trichomic prokaryotes such as filamentous sulfur bacteria. He concludes these fossilized bacteria are not Earthly contaminants but are the fossilized remains of living organisms which lived in the parent bodies of these meteors, e.g. comets, moons, and other astral bodies. Coupled with a wealth of date published elsewhere and in previous editions of the Journal of Cosmology, and as presented in the edited text, "The Biological Big Bang", the implications are that life is everywhere, and that life on Earth may have come from other planets.
http://journalofcosmology.com/Life100.html

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arzuhal
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#3267 Re: Evolucija

Post by arzuhal » 13/04/2011 22:16

Bloo wrote:...ergo evolucija ne postoji vec samo the Architect

Dne 12 April

Poštovani brate Alexandre,

moje zadnje pismo bilo je upućeno tebi iz najmanje dva razloga, ako smijem primjetiti. Naime, već sam te upoznao o problemu i ti si dobro primjetio da to predstavlja rješivo, ali svakako ne i bezazleno pitanje, kako se to može pogrešno uzeti. Ta djevojka, na volšeban i šaljiv način, dovodi u pitanje krucijalnu stvar, sam naš Credo. Zato obojica razumijemo da nam valja djelovati i to odmah.
Kao što rekoh, tebi sam se prvom obratio iz najmanje dva razloga.
Prvi, zato što mislim da ovaj problem nije tako velik da bih njime uznemirivao visoke članove Londonske Lože, kao i samog Velikog Majstora, i
Drugi, jer vrlo dobro znam kakve su njihove metode u rješavanju ovakvih slučajeva, mada ne sporim niti dovodim u pitanje njihovu strogost i nemilosrdnu učinkovitost.
Stoga sam bio slobodan da se prvo tebi obratim i članstvu Bečke Lože. Razumjet ćeš me, svakako.

Iskreno, tvoj brat Z.F.
Sarajevska Loža

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#3268 Re: Evolucija

Post by crnokosa88 » 14/04/2011 05:24

Hvala opet :) Ja nastojim ostati na nauci, prvenstveno na matematici, zatim bio-hemiji, a vi u pomoc sada dovodite El-Dahiza, Vatikan, svemirsku religiju, anunakije....., cak ste i NINa uspjeli zainteresovati za to "tamo neko islamsko ucenje"....isn't that amazing :shock: :lol:
A, tako je jednostavno bilo reci, ja neznam niti bilo ko drugi zna, pa makar za sada, barem za one koji evoluciju nazivaju cinjenicom, a hvale se naukom.

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GAU8
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#3269 Re: Evolucija

Post by GAU8 » 14/04/2011 08:29

crnokosa88 wrote:Hvala opet :) Ja nastojim ostati na nauci, prvenstveno na matematici, zatim bio-hemiji, a vi u pomoc sada dovodite El-Dahiza, Vatikan, svemirsku religiju, anunakije....., cak ste i NINa uspjeli zainteresovati za to "tamo neko islamsko ucenje"....isn't that amazing :shock: :lol:
A, tako je jednostavno bilo reci, ja neznam niti bilo ko drugi zna, pa makar za sada, barem za one koji evoluciju nazivaju cinjenicom, a hvale se naukom.
Znas ko se obicno hvali naukom?

Nebitno, mnogo srece u "nauki"...

Pa i "okrugloj zemlji" su se protivili, ali na kraju je jedna institucija kao sto je tadasnja crkva bila prinudjena da prizna cinjenicno stanje.
Papa je takodjer izjavio kako se TE "ne kosi" sa crkvenim ucenjem.

Ne znam sta Yahya radi trenutno, ali vidim da nije bas up to date.

Naravno postoje i dalje grupe cudaka kao na http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/,
ali njih niko ne smatra relevantnim. Kreacionisticko ucenje ceka ista sudbina, samo dok se raja malo "isfura".
Jeste da je teze "vidjeti" biolosku evoluciju na djelu nego sto je bilo skontati kako je zemlja okrugla.
Ali je zalosno sto su ljudi jos prije 2000-3000 godina naslutili kako stvari ferceraju, da bi se u 21 vijeku nasle "individue" koje zele da kazu vjerujte nama a ne svojim ocima.
Sta hocu da kazem, postoje i dalje

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Bloo
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#3270 Re: Evolucija

Post by Bloo » 14/04/2011 08:57

arzuhal wrote:
Bloo wrote:...ergo evolucija ne postoji vec samo the Architect

Dne 12 April

Poštovani brate Alexandre,

moje zadnje pismo bilo je upućeno tebi iz najmanje dva razloga, ako smijem primjetiti. Naime, već sam te upoznao o problemu i ti si dobro primjetio da to predstavlja rješivo, ali svakako ne i bezazleno pitanje, kako se to može pogrešno uzeti. Ta djevojka, na volšeban i šaljiv način, dovodi u pitanje krucijalnu stvar, sam naš Credo. Zato obojica razumijemo da nam valja djelovati i to odmah.
Kao što rekoh, tebi sam se prvom obratio iz najmanje dva razloga.
Prvi, zato što mislim da ovaj problem nije tako velik da bih njime uznemirivao visoke članove Londonske Lože, kao i samog Velikog Majstora, i
Drugi, jer vrlo dobro znam kakve su njihove metode u rješavanju ovakvih slučajeva, mada ne sporim niti dovodim u pitanje njihovu strogost i nemilosrdnu učinkovitost.
Stoga sam bio slobodan da se prvo tebi obratim i članstvu Bečke Lože. Razumjet ćeš me, svakako.

Iskreno, tvoj brat Z.F.
Sarajevska Loža
ja aludirah na Matrix :zoka:

jutros mi je neko precvikao telefonske kablove....

Bušman
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#3271 Re: Evolucija

Post by Bušman » 14/04/2011 09:39

crnokosa88 wrote:Hvala opet :) Ja nastojim ostati na nauci, prvenstveno na matematici, zatim bio-hemiji, a vi u pomoc sada dovodite El-Dahiza, Vatikan, svemirsku religiju, anunakije....., cak ste i NINa uspjeli zainteresovati za to "tamo neko islamsko ucenje"....isn't that amazing :shock: :lol:
A, tako je jednostavno bilo reci, ja neznam niti bilo ko drugi zna, pa makar za sada, barem za one koji evoluciju nazivaju cinjenicom, a hvale se naukom.
Kao da je bitno ko je naucnik i odakle je. Bitne su ideje. Ali znate sta je najveca shega - ja bio na nekoj konferenciji (izmedju ostalog) o heuristickim metodama optimizacije i neki arap (doduse iz UAE-a je) prica o genetickom algoritmu i kako je evolucija prirodni optimizator "sto se moze i vidjeti na djelu u prirodi" (ovako rekao). Znaci nije sve tako crno ni u arapskom svijetu. :)

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#3272 Re: Evolucija

Post by VerticalHairFactor » 14/04/2011 09:44

crnokosa88 wrote:Hvala opet :) Ja nastojim ostati na nauci, prvenstveno na matematici, zatim bio-hemiji, a vi u pomoc sada dovodite El-Dahiza, Vatikan, svemirsku religiju, anunakije....., cak ste i NINa uspjeli zainteresovati za to "tamo neko islamsko ucenje"....isn't that amazing :shock: :lol:
A, tako je jednostavno bilo reci, ja neznam niti bilo ko drugi zna, pa makar za sada, barem za one koji evoluciju nazivaju cinjenicom, a hvale se naukom.
Eh, pošto se držiš matematike - a složit ćemo se da svi postojimo, jer evo raspravljamo :D - zamolio bih te da razradiš matematički model kojim ćeš objasniti big-bang i postanak nečega iz ničega (ako smatraš da je Univerzum cikličan, onda te molim da objasniš zašto postoji, matematikom, naravno), baš k'o što bi neko od prozvanih trebao objasniti nastanak prve samoreplicirajuće ćelije. Ako ne uspiješ, ja ću neminovno zaključiti da ništa ne postoji te da nismo ni nastali, jer ako nemam formulu svega, to znači da ne postojim.
Da se razumijemo, ja sam također uvjerenja da će nauka kad tad doći do teorije svega, pa i ako bude malo manjkava u tom dijelu oko singulariteta i onog zašto, a ono ćemo većinu mehanizama, pa i ovaj kako je došlo do pojave preve samoreplicirajuće ćelije, skontati.
Eto, molim te, objasni kako je Univerzum nastao, jer ako ne objasniš, nas nema... Nemoj me iznevjeriti, jer mi se dlanovi već znoje pred spoznajom da zapravo ne postojim. :P

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#3273 Re: Evolucija

Post by crnokosa88 » 14/04/2011 09:54

VerticalHairFactor wrote:
crnokosa88 wrote:Hvala opet :) Ja nastojim ostati na nauci, prvenstveno na matematici, zatim bio-hemiji, a vi u pomoc sada dovodite El-Dahiza, Vatikan, svemirsku religiju, anunakije....., cak ste i NINa uspjeli zainteresovati za to "tamo neko islamsko ucenje"....isn't that amazing :shock: :lol:
A, tako je jednostavno bilo reci, ja neznam niti bilo ko drugi zna, pa makar za sada, barem za one koji evoluciju nazivaju cinjenicom, a hvale se naukom.
Eh, pošto se držiš matematike - a složit ćemo se da svi postojimo, jer evo raspravljamo :D - zamolio bih te da razradiš matematički model kojim ćeš objasniti big-bang i postanak nečega iz ničega (ako smatraš da je Univerzum cikličan, onda te molim da objasniš zašto postoji, matematikom, naravno), baš k'o što bi neko od prozvanih trebao objasniti nastanak prve samoreplicirajuće ćelije. Ako ne uspiješ, ja ću neminovno zaključiti da ništa ne postoji te da nismo ni nastali, jer ako nemam formulu svega, to znači da ne postojim.
Da se razumijemo, ja sam također uvjerenja da će nauka kad tad doći do teorije svega, pa i ako bude malo manjkava u tom dijelu oko singulariteta i onog zašto, a ono ćemo većinu mehanizama, pa i ovaj kako je došlo do pojave preve samoreplicirajuće ćelije, skontati.
Eto, molim te, objasni kako je Univerzum nastao, jer ako ne objasniš, nas nema... Nemoj me iznevjeriti, jer mi se dlanovi već znoje pred spoznajom da zapravo ne postojim. :P
......
Ed Witten radi na tome.

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#3274 Re: Evolucija

Post by VerticalHairFactor » 14/04/2011 10:11

Dakle u ovom momentu nemaš odgovor? Ne radi samo Ed na tome, na tome rade svi okupljeni oko LHC-a, to je Hawkingov davnašnji san, Lederman u nadi da će doći do teorije svega napisa i knjigu o "božijoj čestici", vjeruje da ako nađu higsov bozon bit će korak bliže ultimativnom objašnjenju. Hawking, pak, izjavi neki dan da vjeruje kako ipak nećemo još dugo doći do teorije svega, te da on to sad ne bi ni htio, jer onda bi nestala potreba da se radi na tome u čemu on uživa - u tom teoretisanju. Je li u pravu ili nije, neću komentarisati.
OK, s obzirom da još nemamo teoriju svega i matematičku formulu postanka, ja zaključujem da se isti nije ni desio, kao što ni samoreplicirajuća ćelija nikad nije postala djelovanjem prirodnih zako, te se i sama evolucija, mada tako očigledna svima od davnina, ne dešava.
Moramo li još ići na posao i to, s obzirom da ne postojimo? :D

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#3275 Re: Evolucija

Post by horion_bosona » 14/04/2011 11:21

crnokosa88 wrote:Hvala opet :) Ja nastojim ostati na nauci, prvenstveno na matematici, zatim bio-hemiji, a vi u pomoc sada dovodite El-Dahiza, Vatikan, svemirsku religiju, anunakije....., cak ste i NINa uspjeli zainteresovati za to "tamo neko islamsko ucenje"....isn't that amazing :shock: :lol:
A, tako je jednostavno bilo reci, ja neznam niti bilo ko drugi zna, pa makar za sada, barem za one koji evoluciju nazivaju cinjenicom, a hvale se naukom.
Ne. Ti ne razumjes i nazalost neces da razumjes. Ocigledno je da si vjernica, muslimanka i vjera je fundamentalna svar tvoje licnosti i bica. Medjutim ti trazis materijalne dokaze za potvrdu svoje vijere, to je vise nego jasno i to je tvoj problem. Kroz prizmu vjere ti posmatras i rasudjujes sve. I to nije sporno, sporno je to sto imas krivi rezon koji implicira da zbog toga sto si vjernica moras biti po defaultu kontra Teorije evolucije i onda se neumorno koristis kvazi naucnicima pokusavajuci da je osporis.

Pominjanje zvanicnog stava Vatikana i islamskih ucenjaka iz zlatnog doba Islamske civilizacije, nije ucinjeno da bi se to koristilo kao dokaz za tvrdnje u korist Teorije evolucije, nego prosto sugerisanje tebi i slicnima da vjera nije inkompatibilna sa Teorijom evolucije. I da ti neces uvrijediti sebe i svoju vjeru ako shvatis i vidis da je Teorija evolucije i taj mehanizam u prirodi naucno dokazan i obrazlozen danas vise nego ikad u zadnjih 150 godina, iskljucivo zbog tehnoloskog i znastvenog razvoja civilizacije. Ali ti jašeš na ćoravom konju kojeg bičuje (vec pomenuti) Adnan Oktar…

Daj uzmi neki dokumentarac o zivotinjskom svijetu na Galapagosu, Madagaskaru, Australiji, Novom Zelandu, Havaima… i sve ce ti se samo kazat…te divne cudnovate vrste…

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