Potpuni poraz americke politike, povijesni "presedan&am

Rasprave na razne teme... Ako ne znate gdje poslati poruku, pošaljite je ovdje.

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karanana
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#51

Post by karanana » 02/09/2005 17:16

evo maloprije je bila press konferencija tzv. black caucasusa, crnih senatora i kongresmena. uglavnom sve najgore o reakciji busha. niko nije direktno rekao da se ova sporost desava zbog boje koze ali se iz njihovih govora moze vidjeti da oni misle da je rasna diskriminacija na djelu


Zadig
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#52

Post by Zadig » 02/09/2005 17:22

black caucasusa...

hvala!!!

probacu da nadjem link, izgooglati ili slicno.

vrlo sam radoznao kako ce se situacija odvijati.

GhostDog
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#53

Post by GhostDog » 02/09/2005 17:22

From Margins of Society to Center of the Tragedy
By DAVID GONZALEZ

The scenes of floating corpses, scavengers fighting for food and desperate throngs seeking any way out of New Orleans have been tragic enough. But for many African-American leaders, there is a growing outrage that many of those still stuck at the center of this tragedy were people who for generations had been pushed to the margins of society.

The victims, they note, were largely black and poor, those who toiled in the background of the tourist havens, living in tumbledown neighborhoods that were long known to be vulnerable to disaster if the levees failed. Without so much as a car or bus fare to escape ahead of time, they found themselves left behind by a failure to plan for their rescue should the dreaded day ever arrive.

"If you know that terror is approaching in terms of hurricanes, and you've already seen the damage they've done in Florida and elsewhere, what in God's name were you thinking?" said the Rev. Calvin O. Butts III, pastor of Abyssinian Baptist Church in Harlem. "I think a lot of it has to do with race and class. The people affected were largely poor people. Poor, black people."

In the days since neighborhoods and towns along the Gulf Coast were wiped out by the winds and water, there has been a growing sense that race and class are the unspoken markers of who got out and who got stuck. Just as in developing countries where the failures of rural development policies become glaringly clear at times of natural disasters like floods or drought, many national leaders said, some of the United States' poorest cities have been left vulnerable by federal policies.

"No one would have checked on a lot of the black people in these parishes while the sun shined," said Mayor Milton D. Tutwiler of Winstonville, Miss. "So am I surprised that no one has come to help us now? No."

The subject is roiling black-oriented Web sites and message boards, and many black officials say it is a prime subject of conversation around the country. Some African-Americans have described the devastation wrought by Hurricane Katrina as "our tsunami," while noting that there has yet to be a response equal to that which followed the Asian tragedy.

Roosevelt F. Dorn, the mayor of Inglewood, Calif., and the president of the National Association of Black Mayors, said relief and rescue officials needed to act faster.

"I have a list of black mayors in Mississippi and Alabama who are crying out for help," Mr. Dorn said. "Their cities are gone and they are in despair. And no one has answered their cries."

The Rev. Jesse Jackson said cities had been dismissed by the Bush administration because Mr. Bush received few urban votes.

"Many black people feel that their race, their property conditions and their voting patterns have been a factor in the response," Mr. Jackson said, after meeting with Louisiana officials yesterday. "I'm not saying that myself, but what's self-evident is that you have many poor people without a way out."

In New Orleans, the disaster's impact underscores the intersection of race and class in a city where fully two-thirds of its residents are black and more than a quarter of the city lives in poverty. In the Lower Ninth Ward neighborhood, which was inundated by the floodwaters, more than 98 percent of the residents are black and more than a third live in poverty.

Spencer R. Crew, president and chief executive officer of the national Underground Railroad Freedom Center in Cincinnati, said the aftermath of the hurricane would force people to confront inequality.

"Most cities have a hidden or not always talked about poor population, black and white, and most of the time we look past them," Dr. Crew said. "This is a moment in time when we can't look past them. Their plight is coming to the forefront now. They were the ones less able to hop in a car and less able to drive off."

That disparity has been criticized as a "disgrace" by Charles B. Rangel, the senior Democratic congressman from New York City, who said it was made all the worse by the failure of government officials to have planned.

"I assume the president's going to say he got bad intelligence, Mr. Rangel said, adding that the danger to the levees was clear.

"I think that wherever you see poverty, whether it's in the white rural community or the black urban community, you see that the resources have been sucked up into the war and tax cuts for the rich," he said.

Outside Brooklyn Law School yesterday, a man selling recordings of famous African-Americans was upset at the failure to have prepared for the worst. The man, who said his name was Muhammad Ali, drew a damning conclusion about the failure to protect New Orleans.

"Blacks ain't worth it," he said. "New Orleans is a hopeless case."

Among the messages and essays circulating in cyberspace that lament the lost lives and missed opportunities is one by Mark Naison, a white professor of African-American Studies at Fordham University in the Bronx.

"Is this what the pioneers of the civil rights movement fought to achieve, a society where many black people are as trapped and isolated by their poverty as they were by segregation laws?" Mr. Naison wrote. "If Sept. 11 showed the power of a nation united in response to a devastating attack, Hurricane Katrina reveals the fault lines of a region and a nation, rent by profound social divisions."

That sentiment was shared by members of other minority groups who understand the bizarre equality of poverty.

"We tend to think of natural disasters as somehow even-handed, as somehow random," said Martín Espada, an English professor at the University of Massachusetts and poet of a decidedly leftist political bent who is Puerto Rican. "Yet it has always been thus: poor people are in danger. That is what it means to be poor. It's dangerous to be poor. It's dangerous to be black. It's dangerous to be Latino."

This Sunday there will be prayers. In pews from the Gulf Coast to the Northeast, the faithful will come together and pray for those who lived and those who died. They will seek to understand something that has yet to be fully comprehended.

Some may talk of a divine hand behind all of this. But others have already noted the absence of a human one.

"Everything is God's will," said Charles Steele Jr., the president of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference in Atlanta. "But there's a certain amount of common sense that God gives to individuals to prepare for certain things."

That means, Mr. Steele said, not waiting until the eve of crisis.

"Most of the people that live in the neighborhoods that were most vulnerable are black and poor," he said. "So it comes down to a lack of sensitivity on the part of people in Washington that you need to help poor folks. It's as simple as that."

Zadig
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#54

Post by Zadig » 02/09/2005 17:30

he subject is roiling black-oriented Web sites and message boards

hvala za text, da li neko zna koji link za gore navedene organizacije?

FFK as Lucy01
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#55

Post by FFK as Lucy01 » 02/09/2005 17:32

Koliko extremisti mogu biti opasni na bilo kojoj strani i bilo koje religije, govori i ovaj clanak desnih extrema- ili crkvenih moljaca-kako ih ja od milja zovem:
http://www.repentamerica.com/pr_hurricanekatrina.html

GhostDog
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#56

Post by GhostDog » 02/09/2005 17:34

Mislim da mediji ne pokrivaju toliko taj segment nad kojim Afro-Amerikanci bukvalno grme...

Zadig
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#57

Post by Zadig » 02/09/2005 17:35

hm, zanimljiv ugao.
Ne bih da skrecem sa teme ali evo samo da postiram sliku sa sajta

Image

Zadig
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#58

Post by Zadig » 02/09/2005 17:37

GhostDog wrote:Mislim da mediji ne pokrivaju toliko taj segment nad kojim Afro-Amerikanci bukvalno grme...
definitivno da...

moja predpostavka je da je sutacija puno gora nego sto "officials" govore.

Pa samo one poruke su dovoljne da se vidi da je fakat problem.

FFK as Lucy01
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#59

Post by FFK as Lucy01 » 02/09/2005 17:42

Slike iz prve ruke, kao i vijesti (nazalost sve na engleskom) i jedna slika koje je bas ostavila dojam na mene
Image

Postoji zakon u drzavama krajnjeg juga, po kojem se ljudi koji umru moraju sahraniti iznad zemlje (u betonske katakombe). Poslije Katrine, vecina groblja su prazni jer su posmrtni ostatci "isplivali" i voda ih je odnijela...

ak-47
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#60

Post by ak-47 » 02/09/2005 18:53

Ameri su postali previse arogantni umislili su da su njihove gu*ice nesto vrijednije od drugih ovo im je poruka da nisu nista vrijedniji ni bolji od drugih i da malo osjete bol i patnju koju imaju drugi ali ne zbog uragana nego bas zbog njih (amera) ''ko ce ko Bog'' :-D :-D :-D :-D

Pmusa
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#61

Post by Pmusa » 02/09/2005 19:05

Ja licno mislim da njihova administracija ne snosi nikakvu krivicu.Svi stanovnici tog podrucja su bili na vrjeme obavjeseni sta se sprema.
Na nasem lokalnom PBS kanalu u zadnju godinu dana najmanje tri puta je emitovan dokumentarac o mogucem hurricane i posljedicama po New Orleans.Svi oni koji su ostali nisu ozbiljno shvatili upozorenja!! Pa prema tome sami snose odgovornost za svoju situaciju.
Meni je iskreno zao tih ljudi ,ali "sam pao sam se ubio".

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pitt
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#62

Post by pitt » 02/09/2005 19:42

A wrote:Za mene su vec iznenadjujuce, da kazem sokantne, bile pripreme za dolazak uragana. Normalno, za masovnu evakuaciju, bi bilo da se organizuje grupni prevoz, da bi se izvezlo sto vise ljudi u sto kracem roku, bolja kontrola, izbjegli bi se kilometarski zastoji, ustedilo bi se gorivo. Ali americka politika favorizovanja individualnog transporta i potpuno zapostavljanje kolektivnog, uz ekstremni vid "individualne odgovornosti" su dovele do toga da je sirotinja ostala prepustena slucaju, nesreci. Uzas.
Moja milostiva.....to ti je posljedica ogromnog politickog aparata i birokratije.....gdje lijeva ruka ne zna sta desna radi (u ovom slucaju state i federal government). Ovo je nista sta bi bilo kod nas sa svim nasim vladama i zajebancijama. :roll:

neko iz mase
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#63

Post by neko iz mase » 02/09/2005 20:45

Nebi bilo nista, da se kod nas tako sta desi, opet bi svi zavrsili u njemackoj bez ikakve pomoci nase vlade

GhostDog
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#64

Post by GhostDog » 02/09/2005 21:01

nadam se da vam ne smeta ovoliko engleskog jezika, transkript intervjua sa gradonačelnikom New Orleansa, koji je (što je jako bitno) crnac

The following is a transcript of WWL correspondent Garland Robinette's interview with Nagin on Thursday night. Robinette asked the mayor about his conversation with President Bush:

NAGIN: I told him we had an incredible crisis here and that his flying over in Air Force One does not do it justice. And that I have been all around this city, and I am very frustrated because we are not able to marshal resources and we're outmanned in just about every respect. (Listen to the mayor express his frustration in this video -- 12:09)

You know the reason why the looters got out of control? Because we had most of our resources saving people, thousands of people that were stuck in attics, man, old ladies. ... You pull off the doggone ventilator vent and you look down there and they're standing in there in water up to their freaking necks.

And they don't have a clue what's going on down here. They flew down here one time two days after the doggone event was over with TV cameras, AP reporters, all kind of goddamn -- excuse my French everybody in America, but I am pissed.

WWL: Did you say to the president of the United States, "I need the military in here"?

NAGIN: I said, "I need everything."

Now, I will tell you this -- and I give the president some credit on this -- he sent one John Wayne dude down here that can get some stuff done, and his name is [Lt.] Gen. [Russel] Honore.

And he came off the doggone chopper, and he started cussing and people started moving. And he's getting some stuff done.

They ought to give that guy -- if they don't want to give it to me, give him full authority to get the job done, and we can save some people.

WWL: What do you need right now to get control of this situation?

NAGIN: I need reinforcements, I need troops, man. I need 500 buses, man. We ain't talking about -- you know, one of the briefings we had, they were talking about getting public school bus drivers to come down here and bus people out here.

I'm like, "You got to be kidding me. This is a national disaster. Get every doggone Greyhound bus line in the country and get their asses moving to New Orleans."

That's -- they're thinking small, man. And this is a major, major, major deal. And I can't emphasize it enough, man. This is crazy.

I've got 15,000 to 20,000 people over at the convention center. It's bursting at the seams. The poor people in Plaquemines Parish. ... We don't have anything, and we're sharing with our brothers in Plaquemines Parish.

It's awful down here, man.

WWL: Do you believe that the president is seeing this, holding a news conference on it but can't do anything until [Louisiana Gov.] Kathleen Blanco requested him to do it? And do you know whether or not she has made that request?

NAGIN: I have no idea what they're doing. But I will tell you this: You know, God is looking down on all this, and if they are not doing everything in their power to save people, they are going to pay the price. Because every day that we delay, people are dying and they're dying by the hundreds, I'm willing to bet you.

We're getting reports and calls that are breaking my heart, from people saying, "I've been in my attic. I can't take it anymore. The water is up to my neck. I don't think I can hold out." And that's happening as we speak.

You know what really upsets me, Garland? We told everybody the importance of the 17th Street Canal issue. We said, "Please, please take care of this. We don't care what you do. Figure it out."

WWL: Who'd you say that to?

NAGIN: Everybody: the governor, Homeland Security, FEMA. You name it, we said it.

And they allowed that pumping station next to Pumping Station 6 to go under water. Our sewage and water board people ... stayed there and endangered their lives.

And what happened when that pumping station went down, the water started flowing again in the city, and it starting getting to levels that probably killed more people.

In addition to that, we had water flowing through the pipes in the city. That's a power station over there.

So there's no water flowing anywhere on the east bank of Orleans Parish. So our critical water supply was destroyed because of lack of action.

WWL: Why couldn't they drop the 3,000-pound sandbags or the containers that they were talking about earlier? Was it an engineering feat that just couldn't be done?

NAGIN: They said it was some pulleys that they had to manufacture. But, you know, in a state of emergency, man, you are creative, you figure out ways to get stuff done.

Then they told me that they went overnight, and they built 17 concrete structures and they had the pulleys on them and they were going to drop them.

I flew over that thing yesterday, and it's in the same shape that it was after the storm hit. There is nothing happening. And they're feeding the public a line of bull and they're spinning, and people are dying down here.

WWL: If some of the public called and they're right, that there's a law that the president, that the federal government can't do anything without local or state requests, would you request martial law?

NAGIN: I've already called for martial law in the city of New Orleans. We did that a few days ago.

WWL: Did the governor do that, too?

NAGIN: I don't know. I don't think so.

But we called for martial law when we realized that the looting was getting out of control. And we redirected all of our police officers back to patrolling the streets. They were dead-tired from saving people, but they worked all night because we thought this thing was going to blow wide open last night. And so we redirected all of our resources, and we hold it under check.

I'm not sure if we can do that another night with the current resources.

And I am telling you right now: They're showing all these reports of people looting and doing all that weird stuff, and they are doing that, but people are desperate and they're trying to find food and water, the majority of them.


Now you got some knuckleheads out there, and they are taking advantage of this lawless -- this situation where, you know, we can't really control it, and they're doing some awful, awful things. But that's a small majority of the people. Most people are looking to try and survive.

And one of the things people -- nobody's talked about this. Drugs flowed in and out of New Orleans and the surrounding metropolitan area so freely it was scary to me, and that's why we were having the escalation in murders. People don't want to talk about this, but I'm going to talk about it.

You have drug addicts that are now walking around this city looking for a fix, and that's the reason why they were breaking in hospitals and drugstores. They're looking for something to take the edge off of their jones, if you will.

And right now, they don't have anything to take the edge off. And they've probably found guns. So what you're seeing is drug-starving crazy addicts, drug addicts, that are wrecking havoc. And we don't have the manpower to adequately deal with it. We can only target certain sections of the city and form a perimeter around them and hope to God that we're not overrun.

WWL: Well, you and I must be in the minority. Because apparently there's a section of our citizenry out there that thinks because of a law that says the federal government can't come in unless requested by the proper people, that everything that's going on to this point has been done as good as it can possibly be.

NAGIN: Really?

WWL: I know you don't feel that way.

NAGIN: Well, did the tsunami victims request? Did it go through a formal process to request?

You know, did the Iraqi people request that we go in there? Did they ask us to go in there? What is more important?

And I'll tell you, man, I'm probably going get in a whole bunch of trouble. I'm probably going to get in so much trouble it ain't even funny. You probably won't even want to deal with me after this interview is over.

WWL: You and I will be in the funny place together.

NAGIN: But we authorized $8 billion to go to Iraq lickety-quick. After 9/11, we gave the president unprecedented powers lickety-quick to take care of New York and other places.

Now, you mean to tell me that a place where most of your oil is coming through, a place that is so unique when you mention New Orleans anywhere around the world, everybody's eyes light up -- you mean to tell me that a place where you probably have thousands of people that have died and thousands more that are dying every day, that we can't figure out a way to authorize the resources that we need? Come on, man.

You know, I'm not one of those drug addicts. I am thinking very clearly.

And I don't know whose problem it is. I don't know whether it's the governor's problem. I don't know whether it's the president's problem, but somebody needs to get their ass on a plane and sit down, the two of them, and figure this out right now.

WWL: What can we do here?

NAGIN: Keep talking about it.

WWL: We'll do that. What else can we do?

NAGIN: Organize people to write letters and make calls to their congressmen, to the president, to the governor. Flood their doggone offices with requests to do something. This is ridiculous.

I don't want to see anybody do anymore goddamn press conferences. Put a moratorium on press conferences. Don't do another press conference until the resources are in this city. And then come down to this city and stand with us when there are military trucks and troops that we can't even count.

Don't tell me 40,000 people are coming here. They're not here. It's too doggone late. Now get off your asses and do something, and let's fix the biggest goddamn crisis in the history of this country.

WWL: I'll say it right now, you're the only politician that's called and called for arms like this. And if -- whatever it takes, the governor, president -- whatever law precedent it takes, whatever it takes, I bet that the people listening to you are on your side.

NAGIN: Well, I hope so, Garland. I am just -- I'm at the point now where it don't matter. People are dying. They don't have homes. They don't have jobs. The city of New Orleans will never be the same in this time.

WWL: We're both pretty speechless here.

NAGIN: Yeah, I don't know what to say. I got to go.

WWL: OK. Keep in touch. Keep in touch.

Toozla
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#65

Post by Toozla » 02/09/2005 21:06

....evo par isjecaka u audio formatu.....

AUDIO: NEW ORLEANS MAYOR LASHES OUT
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9172420/

Frutek
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#66

Post by Frutek » 02/09/2005 21:13

Danas sam slušo intervju ovog gradonačelnika, čovjek je potpuno u pravu, pravo je bio realan i vidilo se da je razočaran sa svime...Najviše me se dojmilo kad reče "znam da ću upast u velike probleme radi stvari koje sam rekao u ovom intervjuu" :( :(

Pa na šta to liči današnja Amerika ako se iskrenost kažnjava kao što čovjek indirektno spomenu :shock:

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Fair Life
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#67

Post by Fair Life » 03/09/2005 01:57

rei wrote:(...)ps kad ponovo procita vidim da sam mahinalno napisala "debili"
a u stvari mislila debeliiiiii hahah dzaba je hoce jezik .... kako hoce...
To ti kao pises jezikom ??

Coca-Cola
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#68

Post by Coca-Cola » 03/09/2005 16:30

Kao i svuda, guzonje ispare a bjeda na*ebe :(

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manijak1
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#69

Post by manijak1 » 03/09/2005 16:46

:oops: Ne bih da kvarim ovu iscrpnu temu o čudu koje se zove Nemoć Amerike u vlastitoj avliji ( dvorištu :D ) ali ti koji su ostali su bili upozoreni šta se sprema ( izuzev izostanka evakuacije invalida i starih nemoćnih lica jer koliko sam vidio po izvještajima CNN-a poslije Katrine u onom horor New Orleansu ) takvih je previše a opet nije ih trebalo biti nikako na tom mjestu.
Jedino što je izvjesno da su mnogi ostali svjesno zbog pljačke onoga što je ostalo.

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danas
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#70

Post by danas » 03/09/2005 16:57

manijak1;
ima i toga... ali nije sve tako jednostavno. prvo, oluja ovakvih razmjera se jos nije desila, a NO je grad koji je na negativnoj visini (tj. na visini je nizoj od nadmorske) i za njega se znalo da ce biti poplavljen kad-tad. ali da ce se to desiti prosle sedmice niko nije predvidio.

dalje, jedno je "upozoriti" gradjane, a drugo je nesto uciniti da im se pomogne. vecina stanovnistva koja je ostala je ostala jer nisu imali novca da idu ikud -- cekali su svoje plate ili socijalnu pomoc jer su od tih para morali platiti prevoz. znaci, radi se o segmentu stanovnistva koji nema ni toliko ustedjevine da kupi karte. zar vlada nije mogla organizovati transport??!?

odna, pa cak i oni koji su izasli na vrijeme nemaju kuda da idu jer ih vlada gura sa jednog stadiona na drugi. zar se nije moglo nesto bolje organizovati? ocigledno je da USA vlada ne zna i nije u stanju reagovati kako treba na tragedije na sopstvenom tlu. jer je potrebna hitna reakcija, bez otezanja...

amerikanci su narod koji nije bas najbolje upoznat sa pojmom "preventive". kalifornija je morala biti razrusena par puta zemljotresima i pozarima prije nego su se sjetili da donesu gradjevinski kod za trosna podrucja. ovdje se i dalje ne shvata da ulaganje u javno zdravstvo i obrazovanje zapravo stedi novac kasnije, jer taj novac ne ide na zatvore i hitnu pomoc... oni ce popraviti one nasipe, pa ce mozda i spasiti nesto od grada... ali i dalje nece shvatiti da je "bolje sprijeciti nego lijeciti"... kao sto to ne shvataju u vanjskoj politici, ne shvataju ni u domacoj. i u oba slucaja, neduzan narod placa glavom.

Frutek
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#71

Post by Frutek » 03/09/2005 17:07

danas wrote: dalje, jedno je "upozoriti" gradjane, a drugo je nesto uciniti da im se pomogne.
Pa normalno kad su navikli da šta god da im se desi da im se POMAŽE. Jebote, pa hajd što su napravili glupost pa ostali u gradu, al sjede onde ljenčuge jedne 5 dana i kukaju (još ljuti) što im ne dolazi vojska, crveni križ, itd. da im pomognu. Pa sjede tamo 5 dana, što poslije prvog dana se nisu počeli izvlačit, pa pješke pješke...Imaš nadvožnjaka i mostova suhih kolko hoćeš, al kad god pogledam tv, one crnje sjede u onom plićaku i kukaju kako ih niko ne hrani ccc ... jebote, za 5 dana pješke ja bi se izvuko iz sahare a ne iz jebenog New Orleansa :-?

JD
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#72 Re: Potpuni poraz americke politike, povijesni "preseda

Post by JD » 03/09/2005 17:08

Zadig wrote: Zar je moguce da toliko mocna vojska sa najjacom logistikom na zemlji nije uspjela da doturi dovoljno hrane, vode, osnovnih potrepstina?


Pa ameri su poznati da znaju napravit izbjeglicki kamp u sekundi, prihvatni centar (ili ja samo misilm da su oni sposobni za tako nesto), nego sopstvene gradjane ostave da trule sami sa sobom...uzas. Jel moguce zato sto su vecina zrtava crnci? Ne mogu da vjerujem u to.

Ma to je tako samo na filmovima...

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morti
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#73

Post by morti » 03/09/2005 17:17

Šta mislite,kakve li su razgovore vodili ameri kad je rat kod nas bjesnio...ili na kosovu...da li je bio sličan ovome koji sad mi vodimo...

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CiCiban
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#74

Post by CiCiban » 03/09/2005 17:23

glupa li sam.. nikako ne kontam Ko su ti sto imaju vremena pljackati u cijelom tom haosu..? sto oni nisu na krovovima?

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