Sta nas cini moralnim?

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FFK as Lucy01
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Joined: 20/04/2005 17:57
Location: USA

#1 Sta nas cini moralnim?

Post by FFK as Lucy01 »

Molila bih vas bez chatanja. Zahvaljujem.
NIN je na jednoj temi spemnuo moralnog gorilu i neko mu je bacio "rukavicu izazova" i pokaze na koji nacin to majmuni mogu biti moralni i imati moralni kod. U ovom clanku koji vjerovatno ima greski u prevodjenju (pa njih mozete na drugoj temi raspraviti :D ), pominje se i ponasanje zivotinjske vrste u odnosu na moralnost, kao i rasprava o tome odakle moralnost dolazi.

Ovo je samo mala "kontra" onima koji tvrde da moralnos dolazi od religije i da je religija ta koja je moral uspostavila. U ovom clanku cete se uvjeriti da bi ljudi bili moralni i bez religije, jer ona nije ta koja forsira moralnost i moralni kod, nego zajednica....bila ona religiozna ili ne (sto vam pokazuje slucaj iz ZOO u Holandiji).


Sta nas cini moralnim?

Kada bi cjelokupna ljudska rasa bila jedna osoba, ista bi vec davno bila proglasena ludom. Ludost ne bi bila u bijesu i mraku ljudskog uma- i pored toga sto to moze biti istinski mracno i pobijesnjelo mjesto. I ne nikako ne bi bilo u transcendentalnoj dobroti tog uma-toliko uzvisenoj, da je pripisujemo necemu vecem od nas samih.
Umjesto toga, ludost bi bila u cinjenici da obje ove osobine, svirepost i velicanstvenost, mogu obitavati u jednom stvorenju, jednoj osobi i cesto, u istom momentu.
Mi smo vrsta sposobna za skoro nevidjenu dobrotu. Lijecimo jedni druge, udvaramo se jedni drugima, placemo jedni za drugima. Otkako nas je nauka naucila, svojevoljno trgamo organe iz nasih tijela i dajemo ih jedni drugima. A u isto vrijeme, koljemo jedni druge. 15 zadnjih godina ljudske istorije su vremenski ekvivalent sabatomskih cestica kreiranih u akceleratorima i nestalih u trilionitom dijelu sekunde, a u istom tekucem momentu nam se dogadjaju horori: Mogadishu, Rwanda, Cecenija, Darfur, Beslan, Bagdad, Pakistan, London, Madrid, New York City, Abu Ghraib, skola za Amise u Pensilvaniji-sve zlocini pocinjeni od navise, najmudrije, najprincipijelnije vrste koju je ova planeta ikada proizvela.Da smo takodje i najniza, najokrutnija i najkrovolocnija vrsta, je nasa sramota- i nas paradoks.
I sto nauka ide dublje u sustinu ponasanja, postaje teze da se sacuva lazno ubjedjenje da smo mi unikatni medju stvorenjima na Zemlji. Ubjedili smo sebe da smo jedina stvorenja koja koriste jezik-sve dok gorile i simpanze nisu naucile jezik znakova. Mi smo jedina vrsta koja koristi alat i pomagala-ali to je samo ako ne brojite vidru koja vadi mekusce iz oklopa tako sto ih razbija kamenom, ili majmun koji koristi list da hvata termite.

Sta nas onda, ili sta bi trebalo da nas razdvaja, je nas visoko razvijeni smisao za moralno; osnovno razumijevanje dobrog i loseg, pravednog i nepravednog, sta znaci ne samo da osjecamo vlastiti bol-sto svako sa elementarnim nervnim sistemom moze-nego i bol drugih. Ova kvaliteta je kristalisana sustina ljudske vrste. Zasto je i sustina koja se cesto pokvari-niko ne zna.

Moralnost moze biti koncept tesko shvatljiv, ali mi ga brzo usvojimo i prihvatimo. Dijete u predskolskom ce brzo shvatiti da nije u redu da jede u ucionici jer je ucitelj/uciteljica tako rekao. Ako se pravilo promijeni i jedenje u ucionici odobri, dijete ce rado prihvatiti. Ali ako u isto vrijeme ucitelj kaze da je u redu da gurne drugo dijete sa stolice, dijete ce se neckati. Reci ce: Ne, to nije u redu”, kaze psiholog Michael Schulman, ko-autor knjige “Bringing Up a Moral Child”. U oba slucaja, neko je naucio dijete oba pravila, samo sto pravilo o guranju drugog sa stolice ima vecu tezinu, tezinu koja se opire cak i kada neko sa autoritetom kaze da je u redu da se to uradi. To je razlika u stvarima koje imaju moralnu tezinu i stvarima koje su cista socijalna pravila, a Schulman i drugi vjeruju da djeca to osjecaju urodjeno.

Naravno, cinjnica je da ce dijete i udariti nekada i nece se bas toliko lose osjecati kada to uradi-ako nije uhvaceno na djelu. Isto vazi za ljude koji kradu ili tirane koji progone i ubijaju.
“Moralno presudjivanje je prilicno uniformisano od osobe do osobe” kaze Mary Hasure, profesor psihologije na Harvardu i autor knjige “Moral Minds”. “Moralno ponasanje, na drugoj strani, je i crno i bijelo”. Pravila koja poznajemo, cak i ona koja intuitivno osjecamo, nisu uvijek i ona koja slijedimo.
Odakle ova intuicija dolazi? I zasto smo toliko razliciti kada ih treba slijediti i ici tamo gdje nas vode?
Naucnici jos ne mogu odgovoriti na ova pitanja, ali ih to nije zaustavilo da tragaju za odgovorima. Skeniranje mozga daje neke rezultate. Istrazivanja kod zivotinja, takodje. Istrazivanja plemenskih ponasanja daje jos uvijek rezulatate. Nijedno od ovih istrazivanja nas nece natjerati da se ponasamo moralnije, bar ne odmah. Ali nam moze pomoci da razumijemo sami sebe i svoje postupke-mozda mali korak od divljastva, ali jedan veoma vazan.

Moralni majmun

Najdublji temelj na kojem je sagradjen moral je fenomen suosjecanja, razumijevanje da ono sto povrijedi mene, povrijedilo bi i drugog. I bez obzira na ego ljudske rase, ovo je kvaliteta koju imaju i druge vrste.
Nije iznenadjujuce da zivotinje mnogo manje kompleksne nego ljudska bica pokazuju karakteristiku koja je duhovno velikodusna kao suosjecanje, posebno ako se odluci da duhovno nije uopste umijesano. Proucavatelji ponasanja obicno smanje ono sto mi zovemo suosjecanje na kupo-prodajni biznis poznat i kao reciprocitetni altruizam. Usluga ucinjena danas-hrana, skloniste-donosi uzvratnu uslugu sutra. Ako kolonija zivotinja prakticira daj-i-uzmi strategiju dobro, grupa prezivljava.
Ali cak i kod zivotinja ima jos nesto vise. Jedno od prvih i vjerovatno najkonkretnijih posmatranja suosjecanja kod zivotinja, napravila je Ruska primatologistkinja Nadia Kohts, koja je studirala kogniciju kod zivotinja u prvoj polovini 20. stoljeca i koja je podizala mlade simpanze u svojoj kuci. Kada bi jedan od njenih simpanzi otisao na krov kuce, strategije da ga se dozove kao sto su pozivi, ponuda hrane…rijetko bi kada uspijevali. Ali ako Kohts sjedne na zemlji i pretvara se da place, simpanza bi odma dosao do nje. “Trcao bi oko mene kao da trazi onog ko me rasplakao”, napisala je Nadia. “Njezno bi mi podigao bradu dlanom svoje ruke….kao da pokusava da shvati sta se dogadja.”
Tesko da morate ici u proslo stoljece da trazite primjere kao ovaj navedeni.
Cak su i cinici omeksali na pricu o Binta Jua, zenku gorile koja je 1996 spasila trogodisnjeg djecaka koji je slucajno upao u njen prostor u ZOO vrtu, tako sto ga je njezno uzela u narucje i ljuljala ga a zatim ga odnijela do vrata gdje su ga ljudi preuzeli. “Kapacitet suosjecanja je kompleksan” kaze primatolog Frans de Waal sa Ermory Univerziteta, autor knjige “Our Inner Ape”. Mi dijelimo osnove sa mnogo zivotinja”.
Iako nije moguce izmjeriri suosjecanje kod zivotinja, kod ljudi je druga prica. Hauser navodi studiju u kojoj su supruznici ili nevjecani parovi bili podvrgnuti slikanju Funkcionalne Magnetne Rezonanse u isto vrijeme kada im se nanosio bol srednje jacine. Upozoreni su svaki put prije nanosenja bola i njihov mozak bi “zasvijetlio” na poseban nacin pokazujuci znak blagog straha. Onda im je receno da se njima nece vise nanijeti bol, ali njihovim partnerima hoce. Cak i kada nisu mogli vidjeti jedno drugog, mozak posmatranog partnera bi “zasvijetlio” na isti nacin na koji bi zasvijetlio da se njima nanosi bol. “Ovo je prilicno ono: ja osjecam tvoj bol, iskustvo”, kaze Hauser.
Mozak radi cak i vise kada je prijetnja veca. Najpoznatiji scenario istrazivaca morala je dilema voza. Stojite nedaleko od tracnica a voz koji juri bez kontrole ide pravo na 5 ljudi koji nista ne primjecuju. Blizu vas je prekidac koji mozete koristiti da skrenete voz na paralelene tracnice i tako spasite 5 nevinih ljudi. Da li biste to uradili? Naravno. Spasite 5 zivota bez ikakvih problema. Sada pretpostavimo da na paralelnim tracnicama stoji jedan covjek. U ovom slucaju rezulatat bi bio 5 zivota za jedan. Da li biste mogli ubiti jednog covjeka da spasite 5? Sta ako je taj jedan, nevin covjek na mostu iznad pruge i vi morate ad ga gurnete s mosta da zaustavite voz? Postavite ova pitanja ljudima koji su podvrgnuti slikanju funkcionalne magnetne rezonanse i slike mozga postaju krajnje neuredne.

Koristiti prekidac da preusmjerimo voz i ubijemo jednu osobu umjesto 5 povecava aktivnost u doroseletaralnom prifrontalnom korteksu-mjestu gdje se donose hladnokrvne i proracunate odluke. Komplicirajmo stvari dodavajuci ideju nevinog covjeka gurnutog sa mosta i medijalni frontalni korteks-lokacija povezana sa emocijama-se usija. Kada se ove dvije oblasti sukobe, mi donosimo iracionalne odluke. U nedavnoj studiji, 85% ispitanika, na pitanje o scenariju sa vozom gdje moraju da gurnu nevinog covjeka sa mosta da spase 5 nevinih zivota, odgovorili su da to ne bi uradili-cak i kad su znali da takvom odlukom salju 5 nevinih ljudi u hipoteticku smrt. “Sta se to dogadja u nasim glavama?”, pita se Joshua Greene, asistent profesora psihologije na Harvardu. “Zasto je u redu da u jednom slucaju pristanemo da mijenjamo jedan ljudski zivot za pet, a u drugom nije?”

Kako da ostanemo dobri

Biti programiran da znas sta je moralno a sta ne, ne znaci i da cemo se ponasati moralno. Nesto jos uvijek mora da ukljuci taj program, da ga pravilno konfigurira i taj neko je zajednica. Hauser vjeruje da mi svi u sebi imamo osjecaj te “moralne abecede”-eticki ekvivalent osnovnog govora koji, mnogi lingvisti vjeruju, je s nama od rodjenja. Ali sama sintaksa je bezvrijedna ukoliko je ne koristimo da sastavimo rijeci; isto tako je osjecaj za pravedno i nepravedno bezvrijedan ako nas neko ne nauci kako da ga pravilno primijenimo. Ljudi oko nas su ti koji nas uce-cesto to urade veoma dobro. Ali jos jednom da se napomene, ljudska bica nisu ta koja su “izmislila” ovaj sistem ucenja. U Arnhem zooloskom vrtu u Holandiji, de Waal je ostao zapanjen energicnoscu kojom su majmuni forsirali grupne norme jedno vece kada ih je radnik u zoo zvao na veceru. Hranioci u Zoo imaju pravilo da ne daju veceru dok cijela grupa majmuna nije na okupu, ali to vece su dva adolescenta ostali vani da se igraju. Vrijeme koje je trebalo da ih se vrati na isto mjesto gdje je cekala grupa, je izazvalo promjenu raspolozenja kod majmuna- od loseg na gore. Tu noc, radnici su stavili dvojicu “prekrsioca” da spavaju odvojeno od grupe-nesto kao zaistita od odmazde. Ali sljedeci dan, kada im je bilo dozvoljeno da se vrate, grupa im je “jasno i glasno” stavila do znanja sta osjecaju o kasnjenu predhodne noci i ubila hljeb u njima. Kaznjene sipanze su bile prve na veceri naredne noci. Zivotinje imaju, kako de Waal rece, “moranja”-pravila koje grupa mora slijediti i za koja se grupa brine da se slijede.
Ljudske zajednice postavljaju svoja “moranja”, ali ona mogu biti veoma razlicita od kulture do kulture. Uzmite npr. zakon Dobrog Samaricanina koji slucajnog prolaznika obavezuje da pomogne nekome ko je u opasnosti. Nasa vrsta ime veoma kontradiktoran osjecaj o tome kada nekome pomoci a kada ne, i generalno pravilo je, pomozi onima blizu kuce a ignorisi one koji su daleko. To je djelomicno i zato sto je poziv za pomoc osobe koju vidite realniji i blizi od nekoga ciji su problemi opisani od strane trece osobe. Ali je djelimicno i zato sto su korijeni iz vremena kada je dobrobit vlastitog plemena bila bitna za vas opstanak, a dobrobit nekog drugog nije i cak je mogla biti i prijetnja, jos uvijek u nama.
U 21. stoljecu mi smo zadrzali to mocno podsjecanje na nasu originalnu i elementarnu suprotnost koja nas pokrece da pomognemo strancu kojeg neko pljacka ili - zapanjujuci slucaj Wesley Autrey, takozvanog Dobrog Samaricanina New York-a koji je skocio na prugu ispred dolazeceg voza podzemne zeljeznice da spasi bolesnog stranca - ali i dozovoljava da odbijemo poslati malu, novcanu pomoc ljudima Drafura. “Ideja spasavanja zivota stranca na drugoj strani svijeta tako sto cete zrtvovati malo novca, je jos uvije nesto sto nasi “socijalni” mozgovi ne mogu prihvatiti”, kaze Greene.
Kroz skoro citav svijet zakon vas ne tjera da pomognete strancu u opasnosti, ali u Francuskoj i jos nekim mjestima zakonski je sada obavezno da se ukaze “up-close-and-personal” pomoc gdje god je to moguce. U vecini USA napravljena je razlika izmedju akcije i ometanja iste. Hauser kaze: “U Francuskoj su zavrsili sa tim razlikovanjem”.
Ali ne treba vam drzava da kreirate moralni kod. Grupa to isto moze uraditi. Jedno od najmocnijih oruzja forsiranja moralnog koda jedne grupe, je prakticiranje “odstranjivanja iz grupe”. Ako je clanstvo u grupi nacin da osigurate hranu, skloniste, zastitu i porodicu, onda je koncept “crne ovce” veoma zastrasujuca stvar. Religiozni sljedbenici Katolicke Crkve, Menonita i Jehovinih Svjedoka prakticiraju vlastite forme “odstranivanja”-iako odstranjivanja mogu imati ime kao ekskomunikacija. Klubovi, socijalne grupe i udruzenja odstranjuju nepozeljne clanove, a Americka Armija jos uvije koristi prijetnju “odstranjenja” kao disciplinsku mjeru, cak istu i gradira kao “drugo nego casno” ili “necasno” i tako jos vise tamni obiljezje koje ostavlja na osobi na koju je primjenjeno i koju ista nosi kroz citav zivot.
Ponekad odstranjenje dolazi spontano kada se drustvo miliona ljudi udruzi i osudi postupak jednog njenog clana. Oslobadjajuca presuda O.J.Simpsona iz 1995 je mozda razbijesnila ljude, ali je isto tako moralna prica oko njega postala bogatija jer se drustvo kao cijelo okrenulo protiv njega, odbijajuci mu rad, istjerujuci ga iz njegovog country kluba, odbijajuci mu servis u restoranu i sl. U Novembru iste godine njegova radnica-izdavac, koja je otpustena u jeku njenog i Simpsonovog napora da objave knjigu o ubistvima, tuzila je svog poslodavca, tvrdeci da je bila “odstranjena” i “ponizena”. To je, njeni bivsi sefovi mogu ustvrditi, upravo i poenta.
“Ljudska su bica bila malena, bespomocna i nesposobna da se brane u odnosu na one koji su ih napadali” kaze Barbara J. King, bioloski antropolog na Koledzu “William and Mary” i autor “Evolving God”. “Izbjegavanje “odstranjenja” od cjeline je bilo veoma vazno za nas.”


Zasto postanemo losi

Kod toliko mnogo moralnih sistema da nas drze “ispravnim”, zasto se tako cesto pokvarimo?
Ponekad si ne mozemo pomoci, kao da patimo od klinickog ludila i ponasnje nije u skladu sa zdravim razumom. Kriminalni sudovi su toliko tvrdokorni kada je u pitanju klinicka ludost zahtijevajuci da ona bude tako teska da pocinioc nekog zlocina nije cak ni znao da je to sto radi, pogresno. To sprecava vecinu ostalih da dokaze moralnu neravnotezu.
Stvari su drugacije u slucajevima hladnokrvnih i serijskih ubojica, koji znaju da je ono sto rade pogresno, ali to i dalje rade. Za naucnike koji proucavaju nervni sistem, zelja da se i dalje cine nedjela u slucajevima hladnokrvnih i serijskih ubojica u sjecanje doziva slucaj Mr. Gage-a, radnika na pruzi u Vermontu koji je 1848 bio povrijedjen u eksploziji tako sto je komad zeljeza probio njegov prifrontalni korteks. Suprotno svim ocekivanjima, prezivio je ovu nesrecu, ali je poceo da pokazuje znake neobicnog ponasanja-postao je udaljen i izdvojen od sredine, ali nikada kriminalac. Od tada naucnici posmatraju korijene ponasanja serijskih ubojica i u fizickom stanju mozga.
Studija objavljena prosle godine u casopisu NeuroImage mozda pomogne u davanju nekih odgovora. Istrazivaci koji rade u Nacionalnom Institutu za Menatalno Zdravlje, skenirali su mozak 20 mentalno zdravih volontera i posmatrali njihovu reakciju kada su im predocili scenarija nekih legalnih i ilegalnih ponasanja. Mozdana aktivnost koja je najblize pratila hipoteticki pocinjen kriminal-rastuci i opadajuci sa nivoom ilegalnih aktivnosti-je amygdala, duboka struktura koja nam pomaze da napravimo vezu izmedju pocinjenih losih stvari i kazne. Slicno studiji sa vozom (na pocetku clanka), bilo je aktivnosi i u frontalnom korteksu. Cinjenica da subjekti podvrgnuti studiji nemaju socio-patoloskih tendencija, ogranicava donekle vrijednost ovih nalaza. Ali znati kako mozak radi kada stvari idu dobro, je dobar nacin da se sazna gdje da se gleda ako stvari idu lose.
Na srecu, vecina nas nikada ne “ispadne iz moralnih tracnica” kao serijske ubice, ali se nama to desava na “maloj” skali. Suocavamo se sa velikim izazovima, ne kada su u pitanje nase moralne norme prema porodici, okruzenju i mjestu gdje radimo, nego kada trebamo da primjenimo ta ista moralna pravila na ljude van ovih zajednica.
Predstava i ideja “drugog” je teska za Homo Sapiensa. Sociobiologicari su kritikovani kao oni koji najvise ogranicavaju ponasanje svih zivih stvari-ukljucujuci ljude-kao nista drugo no napor da se sto vise gena proslijedi u sljedecu generaciju. Ova ideja ima smisla i svim zivim bicima moze biti oprosteno sto favorizuju svoju grupu umjesto tudje. Ali ovakva ideja se brzo “pokvari”.
Schulman, psiholog i pisac, koji radi sa mladim delikventima u Yonkers, NY, bio je veoma iznenadjen jednog dana zbog kolektivnog bijesa mladih delikvenata na trojicu djecaka koji su opljackali staricu. “To je mogla biti moja baka”, rekao je jedan od njih.
Kada je Schulman upitao, a koga je onda u redu da se opljacka, djecak je rekao “Kineza koji vrsi isporuke”. Schulman objasnjava: “Starica je neko s kim mogu da suosjecaju. Kinez koji vrsi isporuke je doslovno i slikovito, stranac za njih.”
Ova brutalna linija izmedju “nasih” i “stranaca” je evidentna posvuda-mafija koja ubija cesto, okrutno i mnogo puta bez razloga, prica sentimentalno o “familiji”. Ali najizrazajnija u svojoj brutalnosti, ova linija je u ratovima gdje je dehumanizacija “njih” osnova da se izvede ubijanje na masovnoj skali. Knjige i knjige su napisane o tome sta se dogadja u kolektivnim mozgovima u mjestima kao sto su Nacisticka Njemacka ili ex-Jugoslavija. I dok ubice poput Hitlera ili Milosevica nikada nece sjesti na kauc nekog psihijatra, moguce je razumjeti ksenofobicne konce koje su povlacili kod svojih naroda.
“Jugoslavija je veliki, savremeni primjer manipulacije plemenskih osjecanja da se kreira i potakne masovno ubijanje”, kaze Jonathan Haidt, saradnik-profesor psihologije na University of Virgina. “To se moglo vidjetu u Nacistickoj Njemackoj i Ruandi. U vecini slucajeva genocida, uvjek je postojao ekspoloatator morala, koristeci zajednicu za zlo i unistenje.”
Ovo, naravno, ne skida odgovornost sa ljudi koji su slijedili ovakve vodje-stvar koju su raspravljale sudije na Nimberskom sudjenju i moralne poene koju su kroz istoriju zaradili hrabri ljudi stiteci Jevreje tokom II Svetskog Rata ili one koji su odbili da ubiju komsiju Sunn-a cak i kada su to naoruzani ljudi trazili od njih.

Za, velikim djelom nesavrsena bica kao sto smo mi, moralnost je vjerovatno nastrmija razvojna planina. Nasa ruke i veliki mozgovi su nam dali “alat” da dominiramo planetom, ali mudrost dolazi mnogo sporije nego fizicke odlike. Svakako imamo mnogo ubijanja i divljastva ispred sebe prije nego sto se u potpunosti civilizujemo. Nada-moguce, ona realna-je da su napori ispred nas manji, nego oni ostavljeni iza nas.
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danas
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#2

Post by danas »

"Ja ne kazem da su ateisti nemoralni ljudi, ali je ateizam sa one strane morala", konstatuje gosp. Alija Izetbegovic na Okruglom stolu o totalitarizmu nedavno odrzanom u Sarajevu povodom izdavanja knjige Crna knjiga komunizma na bosanskom jeziku.
http://www.bhdani.com/arhiva/101/tekst101.htm

jel' ti to nama sa ONE STRANE moralises :D :D :D
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Lincoln-Burrows
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Joined: 22/01/2008 18:17

#3

Post by Lincoln-Burrows »

Moralnim nas čini život po Božjim zakonima.

Znači ne znači da su moralni oni koji kažu ja sam vjernik
a nemoralni koji kažu ja sam ateist, već upravo oni koji
žive po tim zakonima.
FFK as Lucy01
Posts: 3336
Joined: 20/04/2005 17:57
Location: USA

#4

Post by FFK as Lucy01 »

Lincoln-Burrows wrote:Moralnim nas čini život po Božjim zakonima.

Znači ne znači da su moralni oni koji kažu ja sam vjernik
a nemoralni koji kažu ja sam ateist, već upravo oni koji
žive po tim zakonima.
A sta cemo sa zivotinja koje se ponasaju "moralno" :roll:
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danas
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Location: 10th circle...

#5

Post by danas »

Lincoln-Burrows wrote:Moralnim nas čini život po Božjim zakonima.
kojeg boga? zeusovih zakona?
ili je ovo opet egocentrizam abrahamovske djece :)
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Lincoln-Burrows
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Joined: 22/01/2008 18:17

#6

Post by Lincoln-Burrows »

FFK as Lucy01 wrote:
Lincoln-Burrows wrote:Moralnim nas čini život po Božjim zakonima.

Znači ne znači da su moralni oni koji kažu ja sam vjernik
a nemoralni koji kažu ja sam ateist, već upravo oni koji
žive po tim zakonima.
A sta cemo sa zivotinja koje se ponasaju "moralno" :roll:
Životinje se ponašaju po instiktu, nije Božji zakon
njima upućen :)
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Lincoln-Burrows
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#7

Post by Lincoln-Burrows »

danas wrote:
Lincoln-Burrows wrote:Moralnim nas čini život po Božjim zakonima.
kojeg boga? zeusovih zakona?
ili je ovo opet egocentrizam abrahamovske djece :)
Navedite lady vi neku knjigu kao izvor morala :)
rado ćemo o tome popričati
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dr.gog
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#8 Re: Sta nas cini moralnim?

Post by dr.gog »

FFK as Lucy01 wrote:Molila bih vas bez chatanja. Zahvaljujem.
hvala tebi na izvrsnom prevodu. :)
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pitt
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#9

Post by pitt »

prevodite sami :D:D

On Morality

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"A man who has no assured and ever present belief in the existence of a personal God or of future existence with retribution and reward, can have for his rule of life, as far as I can see, only to follow those impulses and instincts which are the strongest or which seem to him the best ones. A dog acts in this manner, but he does so blindly. A man, on the other hand, looks forwards and backwards, and compares his various feelings, desires and recollections. He then finds, in accordance with the verdict of all the wisest men that the highest satisfaction is derived from following certain impulses, namely the social instincts. If he acts for the good of others, he will recieve the approbation of his fellow men and gain the love of those with whom he lives; and this latter gain undoubtely is the highest pleasure on this earth." -- Charles Darwin (The Autobiography of Charles Darwin)

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Introduction
This file started as a letter I sent to a theist who asked me to describe where I thought morality came from if there was no god. I have changed some sentences, and added a little HTML coding, but except from that this file is basically my reply.
This essay will seek to explain what morality is not, what it is, and how it originates.

Where morality does not come from
Before I tell you where I think morality comes from, I must inform you of some pitfalls. I think that is important to show the basic problem of some other views, and to avoid any misunderstandings.
- First, proposing a god does not in the least help us in finding a good moral system. If god by his will defines morality it could change over the day, and I don't think we have ever experienced that all people wake up one day saying to themselves "Wow, yesterday I found it immoral to kill innocent infants, but today I advocate it".

Additionally, if god decides what is right/wrong it is nothing but his being all-powerful. It is him imposing morality on people, and following god's orders would be no better than to follow the orders of your best friend, or worst enemy. It would be like Jews following Hitler only to avoid being killed in the gas chambers. It might have a survival value, but it surely wouldn't be moral.

- Second, morality cannot be found in science. This issue has two implications. One is that without a god there is still no need to believe that the world lacks a meaning. Even if science is the only way to truth, it can not tell us right from wrong in a moral sense:


"Our conviction that the world is meaningless is due in part to the fact (discussed in a later paragraph) that the philosophy of meaningless lends itself very effectively to furthering the ends of political and erotic passion; in part to a genuine intellectual error -- the error of identifying the world of science, a world from which all meaning has deliberately been excluded, with ultimate reality." -- Aldous Huxley (Ends and Means, 1937, p. 267, My emphasis) See Aldous Huxley and the meaning of the world for more about Huxley's opinion on this.
The other implication is that we cannot do like e.g. Herbert Spencer and claim that "because this exists in nature it is moral". Many christians erroneously criticise the science of biological evolution by saying that it is immoral. This is not to the point since morality is not defined by science. As Huxley points out in the quote above, in the world of science all meaning has deliberately been excluded. We can never say that we are forced by nature to do something, we always have the opportunity to choose to do differently (now I enter into the philosophical discussion about free will. It is not my interest here so I will leave it, let it suffice to say that both theories for and against the existence of free will are scientifically acceptable.).
- Third, some theists (e.g. John Locke) have concluded that God has given human beings the responsibility to define morality hemselves. He found evidence for this in the Bible. If you are interested in this theory of what could be called "Theistic Humanism" you should try to read his "Two Treatises of Government". If you are interested in Locke, you should read about him at the "Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy" http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/l/locke.htm


How moral rules originate
So if morality is not printed on "stone tablets", neither by god, nor science, where do our moral and ethical concerns come from? To explain this you can use both evolution and a science called "game theory". There are many interesting theories about this at http://ada.econ.ucl.ac.uk/papers.htm. Ken Binmore (see that URL) is presently writing a book about morality and political theory based on game theory.
Sociobiologists are trying to understand the origin of the human sense for morality. They are scientifically describing what biases people to prefer certain moral rules before others, and may be able to explain altruism. There is no consensus about whether human beings are altruist by nature or not. There isn't even a consencus whether we have a human nature at all. (This also enters into domains which lie out of my definition of where morals come from, but it is nevertheless an interesting subject.)

Though sociobiology can explain why we prefer some moral rules before others, it does not explain how these rules originate, and it basically suffers from the fallacy discussed above to confuse science with morality. This is why evolution is so important for us to understand morality, but cannot define it for us.

Human morality must be a human concern. There are human beings with similar needs who define common rules to maximize each others benefit; there are also conflicting needs, that have to be settled, and so we construct rules to settle them. This creation of rules for mutual benefit is what game theory explains.

So because there are human beings who can feel passion, meaning, awe et cetera we have feelings towards our fellow people. It is true that there are conflicting desires, and that certain people don't care about what other people think (this disproves the view by Kant that god has imprinted his morality in people's hearts), and so we impose our will by punishing them when they mistreat other people.

Is this a violation of their rights?

To answer this question we need to know what human rights are. If you believe, as I do, that there are no absolute, objective rules and/or rights, you must accept the truth that there are no "default rights". This means that rights are simply the freedom to do what you are allowed to do.

In a world devoid of beings with will (imagine a universe that is a machine with no life forms whatsoever, only deserts, rocks storms...) there can be no morality or any rights. How could there be any meaning in a world devoid of life?

If there was only me in the world I would define all rights, and what was right would automatically be whatever I chose to be right. I would be "god" and decide what is right or wrong. This can (unjustly to Hobbes) be called a Hobbesian right. It is the absence of rights which, in the company of other beings, leads to "every man's war against every man". NOTE: I will have to re-write this, since Hobbesian rights are a man's right to do whatever he wants in the company of others.

But whenever somebody else enters, I cannot do whatever I want any longer. I no longer define what is right/wrong, but instead I and this other being together have to work out rules to work for a common end. This is necessary in order to avoid "every man's war against every man" (game theory, again, explains how it may arise).

Remember that man (through evolution) is a social animal. We cannot live alone, but need the company, aid and support from each other. A child that is brought up without his mother will not survive (it may be a myth, but I have heard that Nero, Alexander the Great or who it was, made an experiment to try to find out man's "natural language", but that the children who were brought up without social company died). So killing everybody else will eventually lead to our own extinction as well.

Since our genes are developed (by the blind forces of evolution) to survive, they would not "gain" from extincting themselves, and so there is a driving force in us that favours coorporation and altruism. On the other hand "egoistic mutations" have a stronger survival value within the populaion, so egoism is *probably* a stronger driving force for human conduct than altruism is. (Not too long ago I thought altruism was the stronger force, but now I have slipped over to the other side.)

Anyway, a person's rights are simply what society allows him to do. In a democracy these rights do not come from authority, but are defined by human beings. There is much arguing between libertarians and utilitarians, whether the liberty to do as you please as long as you don't interfere with other's liberties should be the principle rule, or whether the maximum utility for the maximum amount of people should be it.

For myself I prefer a combination of both. Now we suddenly enter into politics, and I will only tell you that I would like to see a society with communities within the community, where different sub-groups of people can define their own laws, juridical as well as moral. The principle should be to maximize pleasure, but also to avoid paternalism and corruption. Eventually it should be up to the individual to decide what he should do, but without stepping on other people's feet. This I think is only possible in a Syndicalist type of society.


Moral rules must be flexible
Anyway, society changes and with it so does morality. By settling as absolute some kind of morality, christian or non-christian alike, there can only be stagnation. Morality, as everything else is part of an evergoing evolution process. By manifesting old laws you manifest old prejudice, ignorance and knowledge.
For every paradigm shift in science there must be an equal paradigm shift in morality. This is why I agree with Sir Julian Huxley (Aldous brother) in his essay The New Divinity that:


"Today the god hypothesis has ceased to be scientifically tenable /.../ and its abandonment often brings a deep sence of relief. Many people assert that this abandonment of the god hypothesis means the abandonment of all religion and all moral sanctions. This is simply not true. But it does mean, once our relief at jettisoning an outdated piece of ideological furniture is over, that we must construct some thing to take its place."


Some links on religion and morality
Frederick Edwords, The Human Basis Of Laws And Ethics - explains why theism cannot defend an objective absolute morality, and how a Humanistic morality may be justified
Albert Einstein, Morals and Emotions - Explains why we behave morally, what Einstein consider to be a good moral conduct and why.
Albert Einstein, Why socialism? - Contains a discussion on altruism and egoism
Julian Huxley, The New Divinity - A good introduction to Huxley's philosophy.
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danas
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#10

Post by danas »

Lincoln-Burrows wrote:
danas wrote:
Lincoln-Burrows wrote:Moralnim nas čini život po Božjim zakonima.
kojeg boga? zeusovih zakona?
ili je ovo opet egocentrizam abrahamovske djece :)
Navedite lady vi neku knjigu kao izvor morala :)
rado ćemo o tome popričati
moralna filozofija, etika, vrline, pravda... su bile definisane i postojale su kao discipline recimo u staroj grckoj -- kad tvog boga koji hoda po vodi ni na mapi nije bilo :) a starogrcki bog nije davao nikakve moralne upute...

i tako... :)
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#11

Post by uozo »

.ebes co'eka kome treba religija da bi bio moralan!
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#12

Post by dr.gog »

Pitt, :thumbup: ,tekst beton...još samo da ti nije lijeno prevest,al razumijem te :D imal ga gdje na njemačkom pošto mi treba sat duže da ga prokontam na engleskom? unaprijed hvala.
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#13

Post by Lincoln-Burrows »

danas wrote: moralna filozofija, etika, vrline, pravda... su bile definisane i postojale su kao discipline recimo u staroj grckoj -- kad tvog boga koji hoda po vodi ni na mapi nije bilo :) a starogrcki bog nije davao nikakve moralne upute...
i tako... :)
Ostavi postrani filozofiju i "etiku" nekakvih ljudi
Ljudska je pamet za Boga ludost
Ljudi su kroz povijest uvijek krojili moralna načela prema svojim potrebama.
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pitt
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#14

Post by pitt »

pojma ti nemam. odavde je preuzeto :

http://www.update.uu.se/~fbendz/philo/morality.htm


Ima i ovo :

Why There Is No Objective Morality

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"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so"
-- William Shakespeare (Hamlet)

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Introduction
Some people claim that there are objective values. It could not have been wrong by Hitler to systematically murder 6 million Jews if there are no objective values, they say. Therefore, they argue, we should believe in the existence of an objective morality. What they fail to realize is that if there was an objective morality, it could as well have been morally correct by Hitler to do what he did. Those of us who oppose the killing may be wrong, and Hitler may have been right. At least this would be logically possible, while if there are no objective values, it could not have been right for Hitler to do what he did.
Apart from these arguments not being arguments for or against values being part of the fabric of the world, this is not to the point. If Hitler was right or wrong in killing 6 million Jews has nothing to do with it. These people would have been killed regardless of whether it was wrong or not. What would have mattered is if Hitler had thought it wrong to kill them, not whether it actually was so.

Different people who advocate the idea that there is some kind of objective morality do not seam to have the same meaning of the term. This makes these things difficult to discuss and perhaps the disagreement between me and them is not a disagreement in belief, but on the words we use to communicate our beliefs to others. Therefore I will start this essay by explaining what I mean by objective morality.

Definition of terms
By morality I mean opinions on what is good and bad. For example, I may say that to exterminate Jews without their concent is bad, and by that I mean that my opinion is that we should not kill Jews. A nazi, on the other hand, would say that killing Jews is very good, thereby giving his opinion that Jews should be killed. It is obvious that I and the nazi disagree on what is good, so we disagree on a moral subject.
Objective denotes something which exists regardless of whether there are beings who perceive it or not. For example, when a tree falls in the forest, it is an objective fact that the tree falls. Those who do not believe that the tree did fall may go there for themselves and look, and they will find out that the tree actually did fall. The word objective only makes sense when it is used for those things which affect reality. For example, if you don't believe that a tree is falling against you, the objective fact that it actually is will very soon make itself very clear to you. Thus an objective morality would be a morality which exists regardless of the existence of beings able to perceive it, and it would also leave its marks in reality. An objective morality, thus, would be empirically detectable.

Often objective morality is confused with absolute morality. I think the reason for confusing the terms is that the advocates of objective and/or absolute morality have not thought things over hard enough. They don't really know what they argue for, or it could be that they use the words differently from the way I use them. The way I use the word absolute, it refers to something that is objective and unchangeable. For example, the absolute truth is that in the decimal system 2+2 always equal 4. The equation 2+2=4 could be objectively true, but changeable so that tomorrow it is false and instead the equation 2+2=5 is true. But if it absolutely true, the answer will be 4 for all time. Thus an absolute morality would be a morality which is part of the fabric of the world and which is unchangeable.

The truthfulness of moral statements
Logical statements concerning the truth are correctly expressed as "it is true that p". For example, if I claim that the president of the USA anno 1998 was William "Bill" Jefferson Clinton, what I'm actually stating is that "it is true that in 1998, the president of the USA was Bill Clinton". If somebody says "I think every man has the right to wear arms" all he says is that it is true that he thinks so. He does not say anything about whether it actually is right, only that his opinion is such. Even if he is wrong, it is still true that he has this opinion.
Since it is quite impossible to know whether it is right or wrong to kill six million Jews, there is no foundation for the statement that it is true that it is right to kill Jews. We could not verify it empirically. If we could, it would be a task for science to find out what is right and wrong, but since we can't it is not a matter of fact, but of opinion.

But perhaps it isn't a matter of opinion after all? When it comes to scientific truth, it may not be possible to know the absolute objective truth either. Often science is describes as getting closer and closer to the truth, but not being able to find it perfectly. Perhaps it is the same with morality? This seems like an absurd idea to me. The reason is that when we talk about objective facts, we are referring to things which affect reality. If someone is throwing a hand grenade at me, it does matter, regardless whether I believe it or not, because when it explodes I will be severely injured. But would it make any difference whether it was right or wrong to kill six million Jews? Would the world look any different if the nazis were wrong than if they were right?

The way I use the words objective and morality, I cannot see how anything could be called objective morality. It is just an abstract construction without any relevance. It is meaningless. What affects the world is not if actions are right or wrong, but what results they have on reality.

So the term "objective morality" is a logical contradiction. Objective facts about reality are objective simply because they affect us whether we believe it or not, but this could never apply to moral values. Thus objective morality could not exist any more than square circles. The term is a logical contradiction and thus logically impossible.


Morality as subjective truth
But even if there is no objective morality, what can be said about moral statements? Wouldn't any discussion about morality be completely irrational without objective morality? Could a logical argument about morality be made? If we again look at how logical expressions are correctly expressed, we see that a statement on the nature of morality is of the kind "it is true that p". Thus when someone claims that "it is right to kill 6 million Jews" what he is claiming is a statement about the fabric of the world, by claiming that "it is true that it is right to kill 6 million Jews". Since there is no objective morality this is false (just as much as "it is true that it is wrong to kill 6 million Jews" is false).
Now, this seems to imply that there are no moral values at all, but that is not completely correct, because though moral values are not part of the fabric of the world, they exist in our minds. Even if there is no objective morality, it may be true that somebody believes that this-and-that is true. The belief may be false, but it is still true that the person holds this belief. Thus when somebody says "I believe that it was wrong by Hitler to kill 6 million Jews", he is expressing an objective truth (unless he is lying), because this is the same as saying "It is true that I believe it was wrong by Hitler to kill 6 million Jews". It is a statement about the person in question, not the fabric of the world.

Morality as subjective opinion
With this in mind, it seems that the moral nihilism I'm proposing has dangerous results. After all, it is our beliefs about morality and not the (hypothetical) objective morality in itself, which affects how we behave. Thus if more people were to know this, they wouldn't have any moral beliefs. Someone who previously believed that the killing of six million Jews was bad could be convinced that after all, it wasn't bad at all. (I wonder how long it will take before some theist quotes this paragraph out of context.)
But, ignoring for the time being that the previous paragraph is no argument against the truthfullnes of nihilism, it should also be noted that it is just as applicable for someone who believes that the killing of six million Jews was a good thing (which actually was what the German nazis believed). Thus it would lead to more humble people and less fanatism if more people were aware that there is no objective morality. This, however, isn't any argument in favor of the truthfulness of my stance. It only says that if it is true, then it would be a good thing if it was wider spread.

This last sentence may seem like a logical contradiction. If there are no values, how could it be good or bad to spread the kowledge about this when good and bad are in themselves values? The answer lies in the subjectivity of values. Even though values are not part of the world, and even if someone does not believe that they are, he may have an opinion on what is desirable of undesirable. For example, a nazi who was convinced that the killing of six million Jews was not right, may still desire it. Either for personal reasons, in which case his opinion would not have much to do with morality, or because he would find a higher value to it. This higher value would be his moral opinion, but it is important to realize that this has nothing to do with faith or belief, but with his personal opinion.

Thus, even though I don't believe that killing off 6 million Jews is a bad thing, I feal awful at the thought of it. I am detested by it, and find it undesirable. These are the underlying emotions which makes me think that it was bad to systematically murder 6 million Jews. I don't believe that it is true that this kind of killing is wrong, I have an opinion against it.

And... back again
I've just picked morality apart, now let's build it up again. Language is a tricky thing, and even though objective values are ontologically impossible, we can still make objective definitions of words. Even if we are aware that "nazis were wrong to kill 6 million Jews" is just our opinion and not a fact, it is possible to formulate the sentence as if it were a factual statement. If we by the expression mean, not that it is actually true that this-and-that is wrong, but that it is true that our opinion is that way, we may still use that kind of language. And I think that is what most people mean when they make statements about reality. Moral statements do not say much about the fabric of the world, but much about the person who utters them.
There is also the question of what we mean by the term moral. I can hardly believe that a normal human being would find the killing of 6 million Jews a good thing, unless he had been brainwashed by the nazi ideology. We all find certain things desirable and other undesirable. Thus it is likely that people will agree on fundamental opinions about what is right and wrong. As long as we are aware that these opinions are just our opinions, I think that we are justified in expressing them as if they were factual statements. To be honest, when you say that "this-and-that is wrong", don't you really mean that it is your opinion that it is?

However, it would decrease the risk of confusion if we admitted that it was our opinion, rather than stating it as if it was the objective truth. Thus we should avoid general statements about the fabric of the world, and instead express them as our opinions. That's my opinion.

Moral Objectivity is a kind of subjectivity
Another argument against the objectivity of values is that it is intrinsically contradictive. The reason is that moral objectivists treat moral judgements the same way they treat scientific facts. They stick to the most plausible explanation, they say, and change their minds when new facts arrive. The reason why this is contradicitive is that they give moral statements the same weight when deciding the truth as they do factual statements. The most obvious example is when they criticise moral subjectivism for leading to unpleasant results. For a moral subjectivist this would not be a problem, because how evil the truth is, it is still the truth, but to the moral objectivist, an evil truth can not be true, because it is morally wrong. If it is morally wrong it is false according to moral objecticvist, and hense scientific or philosophical explanations should be discarded if they are judged to be undesireable -- thus moral objectivism is in the end one of the most extreme subjectivisms.
This is the exact kind of thinking pseudoscientists such as the lysenkoists in the soviet union, racists and creationists. They all have a pre-concieved idea of what is good, and this idea leads them to reject solid scientific facts and to invent their own "facts" to suit their political agenda. One of the most common arguments against evolution from creationists is that if evolutionary theory was true, then it would have bad consequenses for morality -- the exact same argument many moral objectivists have against the subjectivity of values. They commit the same fallacy and this they do for exactly the same reason. How evil they think evolution of moral subjectivism is is not to the point, because that has nothing to do with the truthfullness of the theory.

In the Soviet Union they had a problem with the laws of heredity proposed by Mendel, because they thought it was against marxist theory. While Mendel explained that evolution proceeded by a selective process in which the least productive species are replaced by more successful ones, the bolsheviks thought that the main cause of evolution was that the weak were strengthened by harsh conditions and that acquired qualities could be inherited to the offspring. Thus evolutionary scientists were sent to Siberia and a man by the name of Lysenko was put in charge of the Academy of Agricultural Science with disastrous results for Soviet agriculture. That is the result of disguising subjectivism as objectivism.

Of course, that moral objectivism leads to bad consequenses is not a problem for a moral subjectivist, because as I stated above, that a position is bad does not make it false. However, since moral objectivism claims that moral values are objective the conclusion of a moral objectivist would be either that these consequenses are desireable, or that moral objectivism is in itself bad, and therefore contradicts itself. According to the laws of logic, a contradiction is always false, so this would make moral objectivism false according to its own premises.


Conclusion
The obvious conclusion of this essay is that we must take personal responsibility for what we allow to be the motives of our actions. We can't blame it on "objective morality", or that we were only doing our duty. If a nazi says that killing 6 million Jews is right, it says nothing about the fabric of the world, and everything about himself.
Additionally, moral objectivism is a kind of subjectivism where opinion is confused with, and given the same weight as, scientific facts. The result is all kinds of pseudoscience, which in some cases have had disastrous consequenses for entire nations. This is a problem for the moral objectivist, because the only possible conclusions from those consequenses is that either they are desireable, or moral objectivism is false.


Further reading concerning objective morality
J. L. Mackie, Ethics (inventing right and wrong), Penguin Books 1977
Lars Bergström, Grundbok i värdeteori, 2:a upplagan, Thales 1997
Frederick Edwords, The Human Basis Of Laws And Ethics - explains why theism cannot defend an objective absolute morality, and how a Humanistic morality may be justified
Albert Einstein, Morals and Emotions - Explains why we behave morally, what Einstein consider to be a good moral conduct and why.
Albert Einstein, Why socialism? - Contains a discussion on altruism and egoism
Julian Huxley, Heredity East and West - Soviet genetics and world science - About the Lysenko controversy.
Julian Huxley, The New Divinity - A good introduction to Huxley's philosophy.
Answering to Moral Nihilism, by Francois Tremblay - A page that purports to respond to my essay. (As far as I'm concerned, the author misses the target, but please read it and decide for yourself.)
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danas
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#15

Post by danas »

Lincoln-Burrows wrote:
danas wrote: moralna filozofija, etika, vrline, pravda... su bile definisane i postojale su kao discipline recimo u staroj grckoj -- kad tvog boga koji hoda po vodi ni na mapi nije bilo :) a starogrcki bog nije davao nikakve moralne upute...
i tako... :)
Ostavi postrani filozofiju i "etiku" nekakvih ljudi
Ljudska je pamet za Boga ludost
Ljudi su kroz povijest uvijek krojili moralna načela prema svojim potrebama.
aha :)
pa dobro, onda da se drzimo recimo morala azteckog boga koji je trazio ljudske zrtve jer ga je to cinilo sretnim?
kako god ti kazes :)
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#16

Post by FFK as Lucy01 »

Lincoln-Burrows wrote:
danas wrote: moralna filozofija, etika, vrline, pravda... su bile definisane i postojale su kao discipline recimo u staroj grckoj -- kad tvog boga koji hoda po vodi ni na mapi nije bilo :) a starogrcki bog nije davao nikakve moralne upute...
i tako... :)
Ljudi su kroz povijest uvijek krojili moralna načela prema svojim potrebama.
Mislm da to nisu radili "ljudi"...ljudi su vise slijedili moralne ekspolatatore koji su moralne norme koristi da zlostavljaju, kako pripadnike svoje zajednice, tako i one druge...a isti su cesto bili pripadnici crkve koja je propagirala moralna nacela.

Razlog zasto sam postavila ovaj clanak je taj sto se u njemu tvrdi da dijelimo korijene moralnosti sa zivotinjama i da mi nismo "izumitelji" istog..
To ide direktno u prilog Darvinovoj teoriji evolucije, bez obzira sto religija kaze da je ona ta koja uspostavlja i odrzava moral (uz boziju pomoc, naravno-jer se sve sto dolazi od religije brani bozijim imenom) i da su ateisti ljudi "s druge strane morala"....
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danas
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#17

Post by danas »


God, Science, and Delusion

A Chat With Arthur C. Clarke

by Matt Cherry

The following article is from Free Inquiry magazine, Volume 19, Number 2
.

Arthur C. Clarke is known across the world for his books, television programs, and movies. Free Inquiry Deputy Editor Matt Cherry visited the science fiction author, who is a member of the International Academy of Humanism, in Sri Lanka, the beautiful tropical island that has been Clarke's home for nearly four decades. His house, in the capitol of Columbo, is filled with spectacular wall-sized NASA photos, reminiscent of some of the shots in his film 2001: A Space Odyssey. In the personal study where he was interviewed, Clarke was surrounded by books and signed photos-ranging from actress Elizabeth Taylor to astronaut Buzz Aldrin-that reflect Clarke's prominent roles in the very different worlds of science and entertainment. He talked to Free Inquiry about mankind, morality, and religion.

Free Inquiry: This is a rare opportunity. Thanks for talking with us.

Arthur C. Clarke: Rare indeed. My agent will probably shoot me for granting this interview. I turn down interviews all the time, but for Free Inquiry, I'm happy to make an exception.

FI: Our readers have some familiarity with your views and in particular your very strong emphasis on the use of science in understanding the natural world. But could you say something about your views on moral issues?

Clarke: One of the great tragedies of mankind is that morality has been hijacked by religion. So now people assume that religion and morality have a necessary connection. But the basis of morality is really very simple and doesn't require religion at all. It's this: "Don't do unto anybody else what you wouldn't like to be done to you." It seems to me that that's all there is to it.

The other issue is, why can't humans live up to this principle? Why is it that people can't act as human beings should? I'm appalled by what we all see on the news every day-massacres, atrocities, injustices, outrages of all kinds. When I see what's happening, I sometimes wonder if the human race deserves to survive.

more here: http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/ ... _19_2.html

and another one:

Religion and Morality
The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion.

Arthur C Clarke


Religion and morality go together like boiled beef and carrots. You often find them together but it is perfectly possible to have one without the other.

Many people have swallowed the idea that morality started with religion to such an extent that they cannot separate the two. I myself was under the impression that religion had a significant causative link to morality until quite recently when I came to see the truth.

Man is a primate. All primates have innate morality. A moral sense is vitally important to the efficient running of any society or group. There are no amoral primate groups anywhere. The Mafia have morals, baboons have codes. There are differences between the various groups and their codes of morality but all primate groups have some morals and standards of behaviour. Religion is also very common but it is not universal and it did not cause the codes or the instinct to observe them. These are facts that need to be clearly stated. Morality does not require religion.

In Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union millions of people were brought up during the middle decades of the twentieth century in a state that was thoroughly atheist and many of the households and communities within those states were also atheist. There was no collapse of morality. You were not more likely to be robbed, raped, murdered or cheated in Leningrad than you were in Manchester. Why? Why did people freed from the fear of divine retribution not suddenly start behaving like amoral animals? Because we are animals. We are political animals, animals that need to live within societies and feel respected by them.

Religion is not the bulwark of morality any more than the cockerel crowing if the cause of the dawn or the virgin sacrifices are the cause of the volcano keeping quiet. This trick has been perpetrated on people for centuries and people continue to fall for it. It is very reminiscent of the great Santa Claus conspiracy. The surest way to lose a job on television is to state clearly that there is no such person as Santa Claus. No adult believes in Santa Claus, but most are part of the conspiracy. We mustn't let children know that there is no Santa Claus because ... er, well, because. And we mustn't let the people, especially the poor, know there is no God because, well, because. We wouldn't want to face those consequences would we?

What is there to be afraid of in the truth that God is just as much an imaginary being as the bogeyman, the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy? None whatsoever. Morality in our species does not rest upon fear of God. We act morally because to do so makes us feel good about ourselves and makes us better friends and allies. Being good and moral is the right thing to do for your own selfish self interest. The best thing we can do as a society to make morality more widespread and more potent is to strip away all aspects of religion from it. Being good is the right thing to do because it simply is the right thing. We as a species have an innate sense of morality just as we have an innate ability to learn language. We need it. We are political animals. We have an innate sense of what is or is not fair. We need respect and the esteem of our neighbours, friends and colleagues. This makes us behave morally.

Our morality breaks down with anonymity. It is no surprise that the biggest cities in the world have the most selfish drivers. If you drive in a small town in Kansas you see people being polite and well mannered not because they fear the wrath of God but simply because in small communities people expect to interact again with you at another time. In contrast in New York, Hong Kong or Rome the rule of the road is to curse and never trust the other driver.

The way to keep morality and lose the encumbrances of religion is to promote morality in and of itself. We as a species know what morality is and we recognize moral behaviour when we see it. We are naturally moral because we have developed complex instincts to help us in social situations. These instincts work as long as we allow them instead of burying them in external threats and admonishments. The ten commandments do not help us discover ultimate morality. We all know it when we see it. The way to get people to behave in a moral way is to trust them, to integrate them and to allow them to develop fully as individuals in a caring society. People will only act as amoral criminals if they fall into a criminal subculture, are mentally deficient in morality (rare conditions do exist that cause these problems) or are in a situation in which crime really does pay in a way that can become a life choice.

However you cannot create a moral society with nothing but kindness. We also need something else, something deeply unfashionable but vital to the healthy running of any society: intolerance. We must promote intolerance of criminality and cheating. We as social animals naturally despise the cheat and the thief, but too many liberal bed-wetter types have been telling us that the thief only steals because of what we do to him. This line must be resisted and fought from both ends. We must both minimize the lure of cheating by ensuring that all can live without falling into crime and at the same type promote natural justice in the community. Criminals must be ostracized. But this is not enough. People who use the glamour of crime and immorality vicariously to achieve their legal business ends must also be shunned. Refuse to watch films that glamorize crime and violence. Refuse to buy music produced by violently antisocial people. Walk away from people who talk about such things. If you are introduced to somebody who makes their living from glorifying violence and crime wipe your hand and walk away. They might claim that they are just satisfying a demand, they are right, but we as individuals should see to it that we never add to that demand and do all we can to spurn those that do.

God cannot punish the wrongdoer or the man who sells his products with images of crime and violence but we can. How many crimes have been prevented by the fear of God? Do Christians never commit crime or sin? Do atheists spend all their days stealing from charity collection boxes, murdering strangers and sexually abusing children? There is no link between belief in the supernatural and God and morality. If the only reason a Christian can give for continued belief in his incredible theory is the idea that such a belief is a useful tool to keep the poor from falling into immorality then his religion is morally bankrupt. The only purpose I can see in religion is as a way to catch the attention in order to reinforce the messages of the natural morality that we as a species are already responding to. It cannot be beyond the wit of our species to come up with other ways to spread lessons of morality than this. Surely the poor and the dangerous will be inclined to listen more clearly if we treat them as adults rather than simply threatening them with the bogeyman again?

http://mwillett.org/atheism/relmor.htm

:)
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pitt
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#18

Post by pitt »

eno sad....jos malo pa ces i iz ARKE vaditi citate :D:D:D:D
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danas
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#19

Post by danas »

pitt wrote:eno sad....jos malo pa ces i iz ARKE vaditi citate :D:D:D:D
bolje i iz arke nego iz zapaljenog zbunja :)
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Lincoln-Burrows
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#20

Post by Lincoln-Burrows »

Pakleni wrote:Ljudi ubijaju, ne vjera. Ljudi koriste vjeru da bi ubijali ljude

Ljudi ubijaju, ne nuklerna bomba. Ljudi koriste nuklearnu bombu da bi ubijali ljude.
Dobro si ovo zaključio, što znači da ljudi nisu izvor morala 8)

Kao što vidiš, izvor morala ne mogu biti ljudi
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[Matrix]
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#21

Post by [Matrix] »

O moralu napisano je brdo knjiga.Ali niko da kaze sta je to moral ?Stavili ste moral nasuprot religiji i koliko vidim neki smatraju da je religija izvor morala.Dovoljno je pogledaju u povijest i vidjeti da to nije tako.Monotesiticke religije kao nauk o bogu su relativno mlada ucenja.Izvor morala je u covjekovu umu,sto ce reci da je moralno djelovanje,znaci dobar uchin usaglasenost sa samim sobom,sa sopstevinim umom a ne sa ucenjenm neke religije.Prvi stav Nikomahove etike(Aristotel) glasi:"Svako umjece i svako istrazivanje,te slično djelovanje i podhvat teže nekomu dobru.Zato je lijepo receno da je DOBRO ono cemu SVE tezi".Sto ce reci da je covjek dobar po naravi i tezi znanju po naravi(prvi stav aristotelove metafizike).Za aristotela moralno djelovanje je ostvarivanje dobrog ucina,princip dobra prisutan je svuda a posebno kao ispravno djelovanje(etika vrline).Za Kanta moral je imanentan umu,a u njegovu moralnom imperativu svako moralno ucenje ide ka tome da postane za-sve-zajednicko.On kaze:Djeluj tako da maksima tvoga djelovanja bude prihvatljiva za sve.Moral je dakle stanje razuma sa kojim se covjek usaglasava ,on pripada pojedincu.Vecina moralnih nacela su naravna,sto ce reci da postoje prije bilo kakve religije.U suprotnom bi bilo da je covjek bio "zao" prije Islama,Krscanstva itd.Upravo je obratno,ljudski se individuum izgubio vlastiti bice i usaglasava se sa ideologijama,pardon religijama.
popajic
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#22

Post by popajic »

uozo wrote:.ebes co'eka kome treba religija da bi bio moralan!

Bas tako,jer moral je nepisani skup pravila ponasanja koji nema i ne moze imati ni vjerski ni polni ni rasni predznak.
Pored toga:
"Termin i pojam morala je plod rimske kulture i afirmirao se je u vrijeme kad je latinska kultura bila kristijanizirana. Stoga su latinski kršćanski moralisti - uz razum kao potpuno valjan kriterij moralnosti - uzeli za svoje etično uporište također i objavu Božju, odnosno vjeru. Izvor etike su tražili ne samo u ljudskom razumu, već i u volji Boga.
Tako se je u tijeku povijesti etici uobičavalo pridavati značenje profane i racionalne discipline, a moralu više značajku vjerske ili religiozne nauke . Međutim, ne smijemo zaboraviti da moral u cijelosti prihvaća razumske temelje etike, samo im još nadodaje i njih upotpunjuje vjerskim argumentima."
ate
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#23

Post by ate »

"Ja ne kazem da su ateisti nemoralni ljudi, ali je ateizam sa one strane morala", konstatuje gosp. Alija Izetbegovic na Okruglom stolu o totalitarizmu nedavno odrzanom u Sarajevu povodom izdavanja knjige Crna knjiga komunizma na bosanskom jeziku.
a koja strana je prava :D
popajic
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#24

Post by popajic »

ate wrote:
"Ja ne kazem da su ateisti nemoralni ljudi, ali je ateizam sa one strane morala", konstatuje gosp. Alija Izetbegovic na Okruglom stolu o totalitarizmu nedavno odrzanom u Sarajevu povodom izdavanja knjige Crna knjiga komunizma na bosanskom jeziku.
a koja strana je prava :D

Ha,bas sam i ja to htio pitati.A odgovor je izgleda:uvijek ona na kojoj stoji covjek koji misli da je samo on moralan.
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NIN
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#25

Post by NIN »

Image

Social Order: Chimpanzees have a sense of social structure and rules of behavior, most of which involve the hierarchy of a group, in which some animals rank higher than others. Social living demands a number of qualities that may be precursors of morality.

By NICHOLAS WADE
Published: March 20, 2007

...Some animals are surprisingly sensitive to the plight of others. Chimpanzees, who cannot swim, have drowned in zoo moats trying to save others. Given the chance to get food by pulling a chain that would also deliver an electric shock to a companion, rhesus monkeys will starve themselves for several days...

...Last year Marc Hauser, an evolutionary biologist at Harvard, proposed in his book “Moral Minds” that the brain has a genetically shaped mechanism for acquiring moral rules, a universal moral grammar similar to the neural machinery for learning language. In another recent book, “Primates and Philosophers,” the primatologist Frans de Waal defends against philosopher critics his view that the roots of morality can be seen in the social behavior of monkeys and apes.
Dr. de Waal, who is director of the Living Links Center at Emory University, argues that all social animals have had to constrain or alter their behavior in various ways for group living to be worthwhile. These constraints, evident in monkeys and even more so in chimpanzees, are part of human inheritance, too, and in his view form the set of behaviors from which human morality has been shaped...

...He found that consolation was universal among the great apes but generally absent from monkeys — among macaques, mothers will not even reassure an injured infant. To console another, Dr. de Waal argues, requires empathy and a level of self-awareness that only apes and humans seem to possess. And consideration of empathy quickly led him to explore the conditions for morality...

...Social living requires empathy, which is especially evident in chimpanzees, as well as ways of bringing internal hostilities to an end. Every species of ape and monkey has its own protocol for reconciliation after fights, Dr. de Waal has found. If two males fail to make up, female chimpanzees will often bring the rivals together, as if sensing that discord makes their community worse off and more vulnerable to attack by neighbors. Or they will head off a fight by taking stones out of the males’ hands.
Dr. de Waal believes that these actions are undertaken for the greater good of the community, as distinct from person-to-person relationships, and are a significant precursor of morality in human societies...

Tekst:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/20/science/20moral.html

dr.gog, nisam sa vremenom da bih preveo... :)

Pozdrav...
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