Šta je potrebno za katarzu?

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Haris.ba
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#51 Re: Šta je potrebno za katarzu?

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exliberal-ex wrote: 02/04/2021 18:25
Haris.ba wrote: 02/04/2021 18:19
exliberal-ex wrote: 02/04/2021 18:10 Uostalom pokazite mi narod/naciju/drzavu koja je prosla uspjesno kroz tu "katarzu"...US, Rusija, Njemacka, Japan, Britanija, Francuska, Turska?...samo nabrajam bivse kolinijalne sile
:thumbup:

Zanimljivo je da ne proces denacifikacije bio u Istocnoj Njemackoj kvalitetniji nego u Zapadnoj.
Ispravi me ako grijesim upravo sad poslije unifikacije national democratic party ima najvise uspjeha u tim djelovima drzave koji su pripadali istocnoj nejmackoj.
Sto je opet samo po sebi zanimljivo.

Tjera te da mislis da je bolje da su ko u Zapadnoj Njemackoj bili "popustljiviji". A to kvalitetniji, ne znaci i sam po sebi kvalitetan. Samo su komunisti manje dopustali neke stvari.

Mada, mislim da nema samo veze sa tim kako je bilo prije 1990. Vise sa problemima koje ima bivsa Istocna Njemacka zbog svega sta se izdesavalo nakon 1990.

P.S.
Evo jedan ekstra tekst iz 1964.

https://www.nytimes.com/1964/12/11/arch ... -past.html
LEIPZIG, Germany, Dec. 6—One of the remarkable discoveries on a journey through East Germany is that virtually no one holds himself accountable in any way for the Germany of the past—or even related to it.

When conversation turns to Hitler and history, it becomes evident that East German Communists and intellectuals regard themselves as citizens not only of a separate German state but of a new one. They speak of their society not as a piece of Germany but as if it were a healthy’ mutation of the still ailing parent nation in the West.

The torment of young West Germans with their Fascist past and parents is explained away in East Germany as nothing more than concern about present‐day “Fascists” and “monopolists” in West German life. In private discussion as well as public propaganda, East Germans can find no reason for raking over the past.

Everything that went wrong in prewar Germany is explained as the consequence of capitalism and thus as something that could never recur in this half of the country. The injustices of Stalinist.times a decade ago and more recent totalitarian acts are depicted as wholly unrelated excesses peculiar to the early years of a Communist society.

“Children learn about Fascism as the outcome of monopolism, and they read about Hitler the way they read about Frederick the Great,” a father of eight remarked.

It doesn’t affect them directly or occur, to them to cross‐examine their parents about their personal responsibility.

“We leave the guilt feelings to those over on the other side.”

Without fully condoning the denial of the past, the father set out to prove its effect. His 12-year‐old son, he said, not only feels no racism or antiSemitism but also probably does not know what they are.

When called to speak for himself, the boy said he had heard of “anti‐Semitism” somewhere, but had never before been asked about it. He thought it was a complicated concept of philosophy.

A newspaper editor said he saw a West German film the other day in which some tourists in Yugoslavia were recognized and rejected as the former occupiers of a small village.

A number of young East Germans seated near.him, the editor said, were baffled by the story” of personal, responsibility for social crimes of the past. They laughed at the wrong places, lost interest and almost spoiled the showing with their conduct.

Questions about how the past weighs on the conscience of this society are greeted seriously but also as a novelty. The fact that there were Nazis in one's family is generally dismissed on the ground that they were dupes of a powerful propaganda, unless they have fled to the West, in which case they remain suspect.

What are called “real criminals” are presumed to have been punished. The schools and courts are said to have been quickly purged of Nazis after I the war, even at the expense of the quality of service.

The conversion of Nazis recently re‐employed there or even admitted to, the Communist party is widely accepted as sincere by party members, while outspoken anti‐Communists generally make no effort to distinguish between those who ruled 25 years ago and those who rule today.

In a Soviet war film showing here, it obviously cannot be disguised that the enemy is German, and he is occasionally identified as German. But in dozens of references to atrocities by the German Army, they are carefully referred to only as “Fascists” in the German sound track.

Former victims of the Nazis, mostly Communists but also a few isolated Jews, are given some extra bureaucratic consideration by the Government. But even in small towns the majority of the people are said to have simply avoided discussion of what they had seen perpetrated against their neighbors.

Many persons, of course, relate what they call “isolated” instances of drunken boastfulness by an army veteran of the glories of life in occupied France or about the medals won in the Nazi past. But such persons, the visitor is assured, are quickly shamed into silence.

“We have no reason here to be ashamed of being Germans,” a young writer remarked. “We are the Germans of Heine and Feuchtwanger and Thomas Mann and Brecht, and we see no reason to condemn our nation.

“On the contrary, we think we are the real bearers of our national culture now.”

Another writer remarked:

“If there is a conflict of generations here, it is in Communist terms between the old survivors of Nazism with the class‐struggle outlook and the younger generation that is weary of war stories and constant struggle. But you rarely hear of sons wondering about their father's cooperation with Fascism, except, of course, as soldiers who were drafted and had to fight.”

“Now, we’ve got an altogether different problem about Fascism,” said a worker in Berlin.

“My 8-year‐old boy came home the other day and said he was certainly not going to kiss Auntie Helgà when she visits us from West Berlin for the holidays.

“ ‘She must be a Fascist if she lives there,’ he said, and I ask you, how am I going to explain things to him without mixing him up completely
?”
Last edited by Haris.ba on 02/04/2021 18:49, edited 1 time in total.
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exliberal-ex
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#52 Re: Šta je potrebno za katarzu?

Post by exliberal-ex »

Haris.ba wrote: 02/04/2021 18:31
exliberal-ex wrote: 02/04/2021 18:25
Haris.ba wrote: 02/04/2021 18:19

:thumbup:

Zanimljivo je da ne proces denacifikacije bio u Istocnoj Njemackoj kvalitetniji nego u Zapadnoj.
Ispravi me ako grijesim upravo sad poslije unifikacije national democratic party ima najvise uspjeha u tim djelovima drzave koji su pripadali istocnoj nejmackoj.
Sto je opet samo po sebi zanimljivo.

Tjera te da mislis da je bolje da su ko u Zapadnoj Njemackoj bili "popustljiviji".

Mada, mislim da nema veze sa tim. Vise sa problemima koje ima bivsa Istocna Njemacka zbog svega sta se izdesavalo nakon 1990.
Ja mislim da je kombinacija popustanja sa jakim razvojem dovela do toga.
Sa druge strane vidis da se ekstremni konservatizam ujedinjen sa radikalizmom probudio u poljskoj i madjarkoj koje su bile na "istom" po pitanju ekonomskog razvoja ( nisu bile podjeljene ko njemacka na to mislim) sto moze dovesti do zakljucka da siromastvo budi ekstremizam.
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exliberal-ex
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#53 Re: Šta je potrebno za katarzu?

Post by exliberal-ex »

Zanimljivo je citat sad ove clanke koji su pisani po direktivi (NY times nepise o saveznickim potezima koji su aneksirali naciste a to se sad i te kako zna i vidi) mada ima djelova koji su skoro pa identicni procesima koji su se desavali kod nas a koji se opisuju u Istocnoj Njemackoj,njohovo razmisljanje , odbiajnje krivice...uvijek je neko drugi kriv.
I u bivsoj nam drzavi nikad nije nacisto raskrsteno sa WWII, ni zlocini nacistickih saradnika, ni zlocini pobjednika...zato smo i dosli do 90 i povampirenog nacionalizma na svim stranama.
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