Reprodukcija

Rasprave na razne teme... Ako ne znate gdje poslati poruku, pošaljite je ovdje.

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triconja
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#276 Re: Reprodukcija

Post by triconja »

Nastasia wrote: Onda mislim da ćeš se složiti da je to isključivo do tebe :chmoljava:
Do mene je sto sam emotivni invalid? Eee, pa nisam ja biro da budem ovakav :lol:
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Nastasia
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#277 Re: Reprodukcija

Post by Nastasia »

medvjed23 wrote:
Nastasia wrote:
medvjed23 wrote:pa eto, poslije mora prolivenih slova, mogu zaključiti da se dobrim dijelom slažemo? što se tiče zakonske zabrane, pređoh isti put kao ti, a moralna strana priče je sporna i tebi i meni, samo, meni više nego tebi, što je ok, jer ne možemo i ne moramo svi misliti isto..

Jedina moralna dilema koju ja imam što se toga tiče jeste šta je važnije? Patnja i želja život stvora ili patnja nerođenog?
Ne mogu sebi da odgovorim na to pitanje jer konstantno zapadnem u neki mind loop. :)

Meni je baš godila diskusija, pa makar i bila uzalud istrošena tinta :chmoljava:
uz rizik da opet zakuham :D predložiću da promijeniš ugao gledanja.. nemoj vagati čija je patnja veća i važnija.. umjesto toga, zapitaj se: ko ima pravo kome nanijeti patnju?

i meni je bilo zanimljivo.. ovo je, ja mislim, drugi put u forumskoj karijeri da me je neko naveo da promijenim mišljenje..
Da, to sam zaboravila napomenuti.
Jedino koje nosi prevagu u korist nerođenog, jeste da on nije u stanju da bira, i da je moralno gore odabrati da drugome naneseš bol, nego da tu bol naneseš sebi.
Last edited by Nastasia on 05/07/2018 23:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Nastasia
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#278 Re: Reprodukcija

Post by Nastasia »

triconja wrote:
Nastasia wrote: Onda mislim da ćeš se složiti da je to isključivo do tebe :chmoljava:
Do mene je sto sam emotivni invalid? Eee, pa nisam ja biro da budem ovakav :lol:
Nisi birao da budeš takav, ali biraš da ostaneš takav. Ja mogu samo pozdraviti tu dosljednost :thumbup:
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triconja
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#279 Re: Reprodukcija

Post by triconja »

Nastasia wrote:
triconja wrote:
Nastasia wrote: Onda mislim da ćeš se složiti da je to isključivo do tebe :chmoljava:
Do mene je sto sam emotivni invalid? Eee, pa nisam ja biro da budem ovakav :lol:
Nisi birao da budeš takav, ali biraš da ostaneš takav. Ja mogu samo pozdraviti tu dosljednost :thumbup:
:lol: :thumbup:
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medvjed23
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#280 Re: Reprodukcija

Post by medvjed23 »

Nastasia wrote: Jedino koje nosi prevagu u korist nerođenog, jeste da on nije u stanju da bira, i da je moralno gore odabrati da drugome naneseš bol, nego da tu bol naneseš sebi.
eee.. otkad ja to trunim :D hajd, hajd, odoh čitat bukovskog, lijepo spavajte

:run:
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lmo
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#281 Re: Reprodukcija

Post by lmo »

baš neki dan na nekoj radionici/treningu doktorica pshioloških nauka, specijalista psihopatologije kaže...prilikom rješavanja neke situacije sa kćerkom izleti joj rečenica ...parafraziram...e, kako si takva, kako da to radiš?!...kćerka odgovori....ali ja te nisam molila da me rodiš... i tu zatvori usta i majci i doktoru psihologije.

o toj rečenici treba pofino razmisliti. nekoga napraviš i rodiš tako olako, a dalje ne znaš šta bi...kontaju ljudi imaju urođen instinkt za roditeljstvo.... :-) ...eee
kakvih sam se sve životnih priča naslušala, nagledala, s kakvim sve roditeljima sam prinuđena komunicirati :-?

roditeljstvo je ogroman izazov, odgovornost, strašan posao....ko se namjerava reprodukovati i to...
treba doooobro razmisliti, edukovati se, a prije svega i sam odrasti...

najmanje je bitno ugrožavanje planete prenaseljenošću, uništavanjem ...blabla....

koji se samo invalidi prave od zdravorođene djece....i pshički i emotivni i socijalni i svi ostali...
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lmo
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#282 Re: Reprodukcija

Post by lmo »

U Norveškoj i Sloveniji su djeca najsretnija, prema posljednjim istraživanjima. Postoji razlog za to. Uzeti njihov model društva, poboljšati ga, kopirati posvuda i eto. Opet i ovo je teško izvodivo, ali lakše od ubjeđivanja komplet populacije u antinatalizam.
ovo oko kopiranja modela je ogromna greška.
i u obrazovanju su to pokušavali, pa propalo ko kauč.
kaže azijati najpametniji na svijetu sudeći po PISA testovima, razlozi leže velikim dijelom u asocijativnom mišljenju koje izgrađuju npr. kinezi koristeći svoje pismo ili računajući pomoću abakusa....pa kao rješenje hajmo i mi učiti kinesko pismo da budemo pametniji.. :D ...a asocijativno mišljenje možemo razvijati na mnogo drugih načina koji su bliski nama a jednako učinkoviti, samo treba znati.

mentaliteti, sistemi, uslovi su dijametralno različiti, svako treba izgraditi funkcionalan sistem za sebe, to zahtijeva indvidualan pristup i to je ono što je teško. individualci, budući roditelji, trebaju proći školu roditeljstva i dobro prostudirati sve opcije, mogućnosti, sažvakati razvojnu psihologiju...inače, mrka kapa...ili od 100, jedno dijete će se izvući.
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medvjed23
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#283 Re: Reprodukcija

Post by medvjed23 »

ovih dana se dosta piše o dječacima zarobljenim u pećini, na tajlandu.. kao i skoro svako, i ja podosta čitam i razmišljam o tome.. i nekako, na te misli se redovno nadovezuju druge, slične: koliko ljudi, dok ja ovo pišem, pati jednako kao ili čak i više nego tajlandski dječaci? koliko ljudi je kroz historiju patilo na sličan način? dva pitanja, jedan odgovor: mnogo.. radi se o patnji ogromnog obima koja nam najčešće nije na umu.. lako je zanemarujemo, fokusirajući se na pozitivno i stvarajući nerealnu sliku svijeta, koja nam na nesretan način kroji brojne odluke, uključujući i one vezane za reprodukciju..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollyanna_principle
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medvjed23
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#284 Re: Reprodukcija

Post by medvjed23 »

https://aeon.co/essays/having-children- ... ts-immoral

početak članka je zanimljiv i sadrži jaku emotivnu notu.. zatim slijedi ponavljanje teza iznesenih u knjizi better never to have been i na ovoj temi..
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medvjed23
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#285 Re: Reprodukcija

Post by medvjed23 »

By being caused to exist as persons, children are forced to assume moral agency, to face various demanding and sometimes wrenching moral questions, and to discharge taxing moral duties. They must endure the fairly substantial amount of pain, suffering, difficulty, significant disappointment, distress, and significant loss that occur within the typical life. They must face and undergo the fear and harm of death. Finally, they must bear the results of imposed risks that their lives may go terribly wrong in a variety of ways. All of these burdens are imposed without the future child’s consent. This, it seems, is in tension with the foundational liberal, anti-paternalist principle that forbids the imposition of significant burdens and risks upon a person without the person’s consent. Doing so violates this principle even if the imposition delivers an overall benefit to the affected person. Hence, procreation is a morally hazardous activity because in all cases it imposes significant risks and burdens upon the children who result. The imposition of significant burdens and risks is not a feature of exceptional or aberrant procreation, but of all procreation.
...one might resist the claim that because existence may deliver harms, the creator who causes a person to exist causes her harm. One might object that placing someone in a condition where she will necessarily suffer harm is not the same as causing her harm. In some sense, the condition inflicts the harm, not the agent. But this observation seems tangential to assessments of responsibility. If an agent places a patient in the path of an evident, oncoming avalanche that will break her arm, it seems fair to say that the agent harms the patient; at the least (and sufficient for my purposes), the agent is accountable and responsible for the harm the patient suffers—even if the agent does not break the arm directly through his action, does not seek the harm and even tries to prevent it...
Seana Valentine Shiffrin, Wrongful life, procreative responsibility, and the significance of harm - rad koji se dobrim dijelom odnosi na ono što Benatar možda i podcjenjuje, a to je korist koju čovjek dobija rođenjem. Ta korist se sastoji u mogućnosti da uživamo u hrani, ljubavi, filmovima itd. S tim u vezi, iznesene su dvije tvrdnje o šteti nanesenoj osobi koja na to nije pristala:

1 - Moralno je opravdano nanijeti štetu osobi, ako je svrha toga sprečavanje veće štete koja toj osobi prijeti. Primjer: povrede koje spasilac (nenamjerno) nanosi osobi koja se utapa. Učinjena je mala šteta u vidu par masnica. Izbjegnuta je velika šteta u vidu smrti.

2 - Moralno je problematično nanijeti štetu osobi, ako je svrha toga pružanje koristi toj osobi. Primjer: reprodukcija.
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triconja
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#286 Re: Reprodukcija

Post by triconja »

Sve je to fino i bajno ali u stvarnosti sva filozofija i moral padaju u vodu. Kae "teoretski ljubav lijepo zvuci, malcice je drukcije u praksi" :lol:
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medvjed23
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#287 Re: Reprodukcija

Post by medvjed23 »

tačno.. na forumu možemo i trebamo (jer tako je život trunku zanimljiviji) raspravljati šta jeste i šta nije moralno.. u toj raspravi, oko nekih teza ćemo se složiti, oko nekih nećemo.. međutim, čak i kad bi se složili oko svega i kreirali moralni kodeks koji nikome nije sporan, nerealno bi bilo od ikoga očekivati da taj kodeks savršeno primijeni u praksi.. bezgrešni ljudi ne postoje.. svako, gazeći kroz kaljužu života, u manjoj ili većoj mjeri ukalja savjest..

elem, tek danas naletjeh na ovo:



jako volim slušati, obojicu, tako da mi ovo dođe ko ljubiteljima superheroja film o betmenu i supermenu :D
halo_ba
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#288 Re: Reprodukcija

Post by halo_ba »

Konobar, daj svima jednu rundu serotonina na moj racun!
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medvjed23
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#289 Re: Reprodukcija

Post by medvjed23 »

braća kinezi iz suprotnosti u suprotnost:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -kids.html
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Truba
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#290 Re: Reprodukcija

Post by Truba »

što reći od nacije koja je ubijala vrapce te uništila 1000godišnje carstvo... sama sebe :D
malo su se ko oporavili :mrgreen:
samo biće kad su htjeli nisu dali
sad kad mogu neće :D
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medvjed23
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#291 Re: Reprodukcija

Post by medvjed23 »

što su se ovi moji uzjebali zbog ove slike:

Image

https://metro.co.uk/2018/09/27/no-you-c ... %3Dcbshare
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medvjed23
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#292 Re: Reprodukcija

Post by medvjed23 »

While the optimists have answers to life’s big questions, they are not the right ones, or so I shall argue. Their answers are believed, when they are believed, because people so desperately want to believe them, and not because the force of arguments supporting them makes it the case that we must believe them...

Life’s big questions are big in the sense that they are momentous. However, contrary to appearances, they are not big in the sense of being unanswerable. It is only that the answers are generally unpalatable. There is no great mystery, but there is plenty of horror. It is for this reason that I think that the “human condition” is most accurately described as the “human predicament.” Nor is it the case that those who are thrust into this predicament can avoid the horror of it. Limited melioration is sometimes possible, but this is the existential equivalent of palliative care. It addresses some symptoms but not the underlying problem and not without costs.
Most people recognize that human lives can sometimes be of an appallingly low quality. The tendency, however, is to think that this is true of other people’s lives, not one’s own. When people do think their own lives are of low quality, this is typically because their lives are in fact unusually bad. However, if we look dispassionately at human life and control for our biases, we find that all human life is permeated by badness.

Even in good health, much of every day is spent in discomfort. Within hours, we become thirsty and hungry. Many millions of people are chronically hungry. When we can access food and beverage and thus succeed in warding off hunger and thirst for a while, we then come to feel the discomfort of distended bladders and bowels. Sometimes, relief can be obtained relatively easily, but on other
occasions, the opportunity for (dignified) relief is not as forthcoming as we would like. We also spend much of our time in thermal discomfort—​feeling either too hot or too cold. Unless one naps at the first sign of weariness, one spends quite a bit of the day feeling tired. Indeed, many people wake up tired and spend the day in that state.

With the exception of chronic hunger among the world’s poor, these discomforts all tend to be dismissed as minor matters. While they are minor relative to the other bad things that befall people, they are not inconsequential. A blessed species that never experienced these discomforts would rightly note that if we take discomfort to be bad, then we should take the daily discomforts that humans experience more seriously than we do.

Other negative states are experienced regularly even if not daily or by everybody. Itches and allergies are common. Minor illnesses like colds are suffered by almost everybody. For some people, this happens multiple times a year. For others, it occurs annually or every few years. Many women of reproductive years suffer regular menstrual pains and menopausal women suffer hot flashes. Conditions such as nausea, hypoglycemia, seizures, and chronic pain are widespread.

The negative features of life are not just restricted to unpleasant physical sensations. For example, we frequently encounter frustrations and irritations. We have to wait in traffic or stand in lines. We encounter inefficiency, stupidity, evil, Byzantine bureaucracies, and other obstacles that can take thousands of hours to overcome—​if they can be overcome at all. Many important aspirations are unfulfilled. Millions of people seek jobs but remain unemployed. Of those who have jobs, many are dissatisfied with them, or even loathe them. Even those who enjoy their work may have professional aspirations that remain unfulfilled. Most people yearn for close and rewarding personal relationships, not least with a lifelong partner or spouse. For some, this desire is never fulfilled. For others, it temporarily is, but then they find that the relationship is trying and stultifying, or their partner betrays them or becomes exploitative or abusive. Most people are unhappy in some or other way with their appearance—​they are too fat, or they are too short, or their ears are too big. People want to be, look, and feel younger, and yet they age relentlessly. They have high hopes for their children and these are often thwarted when, for example, the children prove to be a disappointment in some way or other. When those close to us suffer, we suffer at the sight of it. When they die, we are bereft.

We are vulnerable to innumerable appalling fates. Although each fate does not befall every one of us, our very existence puts us at risk for these outcomes, and the cumulative risk of something horrific occurring to each one of us is simply enormous. If we include death, as I argue in the next chapter that we ought to do, then the risk is in fact a certainty.

Burn victims, for example, suffer excruciating pain, not only in the moment but also for years thereafter. The wound itself is obviously painful, but the treatment intensifies and protracts the pain. One such victim describes his daily “bath” in a disinfectant that would sting intact skin but causes unspeakable pain where there is little or no skin. The bandages stick to the flesh and removing them, which can take an hour or more if the burns are extensive, causes indescribable pain. Repeated surgery can be
required, but even with the best treatment, the victim is left with lifelong disfigurement and the social and psychological difficulties associated with it.

Consider next those who are quadriplegic or, worse still, suffer from locked-​in syndrome. This is sheer mental torture. One eloquent amyotrophic lateral sclerosis sufferer describes this disease as “progressive imprisonment without parole” because of the advancing and irreversible paralysis. Dictating an essay at the point when he had become quadriplegic, and before losing the ability to speak, he describes his torments, which are most acute at night. When he is put to bed, he has to have his limbs placed in exactly the position he wants them for the night. He says that if he allows “a stray limb to be misplaced” or “fail to insist on having [his] midriff carefully aligned with legs and head,” he will “suffer the agonies of the damned later in the night.” He invites us to consider how often we shift and move during the course of a night, and he says that “enforced stillness for hours on end is not only physically uncomfortable but psychologically close to intolerable.” He lies on his back in a semi-​upright position, attached to a breathing device and left alone with his thoughts. Unable to move, any itch must go unscratched. His condition, he says, is one of “humiliating helplessness.”

Cancer’s reputation as a dreaded disease is well deserved. There is much suffering in dying from this disease, but at least as much in the treatments that are usually necessary to cure the patient of the malignancy. In the worst scenarios, the patient suffers from both the treatment and its failure.

When symptoms have not precipitated the diagnosis, the first blow is the diagnosis itself. Arthur Frank says that on receiving the news that he had a malignancy, he felt as though his “body had become a quicksand” in which he was sinking. But that is only the beginning. For example, radiation treatment for esophageal cancer left Christopher Hitchens desperately attempting to avoid the inevitable need to swallow. Every time he did swallow, “a hellish tide of pain would flow up [his] throat, culminating in what felt like a mule kick in the small of [his] back.” Ruth Rakoff, after receiving chemotherapy for breast cancer, described her “insides as raw.” Treatment can result in nausea, vomiting, constipation, diarrhea, and gum and dental soreness. Food tastes bad and appetite is lost. Unsurprisingly, all this results in weight loss and fatigue. Neuropathy is another common side effect, as is hair loss. Many of the same symptoms can be experienced even in the absence of treatment or after treatment has been ended. Moreover, tumors pressing on brains, bowels, and bones can cause excruciating pain. When the pain can be controlled, it is sometimes at the expense of consciousness or at least lucidity...

Pain accompanies many conditions, but we should remember that much of it is not attendant upon visible conditions. It is often hidden from those not experiencing it. One sufferer from chronic pain describes it as “debilitating” and observes that it “can take over one’s life, sap one’s energy, and negate or neutralize joy and well-​being.”

Not all suffering is physical, although psychological ailments can certainly have bodily symptoms. William Styron, describing his depression, said that ultimately, “the body is affected and feels sapped, drained.” He wrote of his “slowed-​down responses, near paralysis, psychic energy throttled back close to zero.” Sleep is disrupted, with the sufferer staring “up into yawning darkness, wondering and writhing at the devastation” of his mind. The sufferer from depression, we are told, is “like a walking casualty of war.”

In addition, there is an atrociously diverse range of harms that people suffer at the hands of other humans, including being betrayed, humiliated, shamed, denigrated, maligned, beaten, assaulted, raped, kidnapped, abducted, tortured, and murdered.

The horrors of each could be enumerated but consider those of rape as an example. Rape can instill terror in the victim before and while she or he is violated. Physical injury, including bruising and laceration, is not an uncommon consequence of the assault. There can be lifelong psychological repercussions, including rage, shame, feelings of worthlessness, and difficulties with intimacy. A pregnancy can result if the victim is a fertile female. Even when abortions are freely available, there can be psychic trauma in terminating the pregnancy. Carrying the fetus to term can be even more psychologically distressing. Rape victims can also contract sexually transmitted diseases from their assailants. These in turn have many harmful physical effects and can cause great mental trauma as well...

Optimists will very likely suggest that this is a one-​sided picture—​that lives typically contain not only bad but also good. However, although it is true that lives are not usually unadulteratedly bad, there is much more bad than good even for the luckiest humans.
Things are worse still for unluckier people, many of whom have almost nothing going in their favor.

Our lives contain so much more bad than good in part because of a series of empirical differences between bad things and good things. For example, the most intense pleasures are short-​lived, whereas the worst pains can be much more enduring. Orgasms, for example, pass quickly. Gastronomic pleasures last a bit longer, but even if the pleasure of good food is protracted, it lasts no more than a few hours. Severe pains can endure for days, months, and years. Indeed, pleasures in general—​not just the most sub-lime of them—​tend to be shorter-​lived than pains. Chronic pain is rampant, but there is no such thing as chronic pleasure. There are people who have an enduring sense of contentment or satisfaction, but that is not the same as chronic pleasure. Moreover, discontent and dissatisfaction can be as enduring as contentment and satisfaction; this means that the positive states are not advantaged in this realm. Indeed, the positive states are less stable because it is much easier for things to go wrong than to go right.

The worst pains are also worse than the best pleasures are good. Those who deny this should consider whether they would accept an hour of the most delightful pleasures in exchange for an hour of the worst tortures. Arthur Schopenhauer makes a similar point when he asks us to “compare the respective feelings of two animals, one of which is engaged in eating the other.” The animal being eaten suffers and loses vastly more than the animal that is eating gains from this one meal...
...there are massive differences between an argument that coming into existence is bad and an argument that death is not bad. First, the conclusion that death is never bad for the one who dies requires major upheaval in our moral views, as I have noted. By contrast, the conclusion that coming into existence is (very) bad, although disruptive of ordinary views about procreation, is actually entirely congruent with our other views about what is bad. We think it is bad to endure pain, suffering, frustration, sadness, trauma, to be betrayed, discredited, and to die. Coming into existence is the enabling condition for all these bad things and the guarantor of many of them. Thus, the view that it is bad to be (vulnerable to such fates) is actually not at all surprising.
...we are involuntarily brought into a cosmically insignificant existence that bears considerable risk of serious harm. We did not and could not consent to our coming into existence. Nor can we ever wrest this control from those who exercised it. However, it is still possible to decide whether to terminate one’s existence. That, of course, is a quite different sort of decision from a decision to bring somebody into being. When a person is not brought into existence, there is no cost for that person, for she never exists. Those who do not exist have no interest in coming into existence. By contrast, once one has come into existence, one typically has an interest in continuing to exist. Unlike never coming into existence, ceasing to exist is tragic.
Benatar, The Human Predicament - pitka i zanimljiva knjiga, kao i Better Never to Have Been istog autora. Preporuke za sve koje interesuje tematika i koji bar osrednje znaju engleski. Mislim da nema prevoda na naš.
Ci-Nick
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#293 Re: Reprodukcija

Post by Ci-Nick »

ima ona kineska, "Život je dar, uživaj ".
Problem je što ljudi (a posebno balkanci) nisu postavili stvari kako treba.
Život bi trebao da znači doživljaj, emociju, radost, igru,..
Kod nas na Balkanu se život postavlja kao borbu za preživljavanje, strah od svega i svačega, izgurati do sutra, izgurati još godinu, obezbjediti se materijalno za mjesec, dva, obezbjediti djecu, unuke,..a na doživljaj potpuno zaboravimo, uvijek u nekom grču, smrknuti i narogušeni.
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hadzinicasa
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#294 Re: Reprodukcija

Post by hadzinicasa »

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seln
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#295 Re: Reprodukcija

Post by seln »

Svim ovim pristalicama neradjanja, sprecavanja zivota u smislu sprecavanja patnje... roknite se!
Tako cete sprijeciti vlastitu patnju, a sprijecite i moju patnju, koju osjecam citajuci vase gluposti.
Oslobodite svijet vaseg prisustva, bice bolje za svijet i za vas.
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medvjed23
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#296 Re: Reprodukcija

Post by medvjed23 »

argumentom nas!
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seln
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#297 Re: Reprodukcija

Post by seln »

medvjed23 wrote:argumentom nas!
I ti nas "filozofijom".
Ako si gladan, najedi se.
Ako te svrbi, idi guzi.
Ako si depresivan, uzmi neki thymoleptik.
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medvjed23
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#298 Re: Reprodukcija

Post by medvjed23 »

ako te tema ne interesuje, zaobiđi je
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seln
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#299 Re: Reprodukcija

Post by seln »

medvjed23 wrote:ako te tema ne interesuje, zaobiđi je
Ako te zivot ne interesuje, rokni se.
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medvjed23
Posts: 26689
Joined: 16/07/2010 13:49

#300 Re: Reprodukcija

Post by medvjed23 »

interesuje me život, al svejedno, hvala na savjetu :kiss:
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