Šiiti

[port4l]

Šiiti su moja braca, vjerujemo u istog Boga, iste poslanike, obavljamo iste duznosti citamo isti Kur'an Muslimani smo... Braca smo! Tako gledam na te stvari, ostalo mi nije bitno Bog ce svima da sudi...

[portfast]

Boga mi ovi nisu moja bracha

[pure_love]

Boga mi ovi nisu moja bracha

postojala je jedna muslimanska sekta slicna danasnjim sijjama za vrijeme hazreti Alija r.a,pa je Ali r.a nakon sto je cuo za njih naredio da ih se spali zive.izmedju ostalog su se molili Aliju r.a...kao i danasnje sijje


sta li bi tek radio ovim ljudima,posebno s obzirom da se pozivaju na njega..a cini mi se ima jedan hadis,.kada je Ali r.a cuo da ga neki nemuslimani podrzavaju poceo je plakati..jer se uplasio da negdje grijesi,s obzirom da ga kafiri podrzavaju

[istocnjak]

Pa zar ove slike nisu argument i dokaz o zabludi šiija?

Dobro, šije su sekta u Islamu to je svima jasno, ali sva ljudska djela će se na sudnjem danu prije svega mjeriti po nijetu (namjeri). To nikad ne treba smetnuti sa uma.

Nisu sve šije ovakve sa slike i među njima postoje razlike i pravci a ovog pravca sa slike nema u BiH, elhamdulillah.

Neki ljudi iz BiH koji su rođeni kao muslimani a čitav život su živjeli bez vjere, došli su u doticaj sa šijama i počeli praktikovati vjeru na taj način. Međutim svakodnevno družeći se sa sunni muslimanima hanefijskog mezheba, polako to kod sebe ispravljaju. Na drugoj strani selefije kada vide nekog bosanca da je među šijama napadaju čovjeka a ne pitaju se koji jer "uzrok" tome.

Islam se prvenstveno bavi "prevencijom" i sve probleme traži u "uzroku" a ne u "posljedici". Selefije koje su sunni muslimani kao i hanefije imaju samo drugačiju formu obavljanja namaza i drugačiji pristup običnom čovjeku. Međutim, hanefijski mezheb je dosta strožiji po pitanju namaza. Također, sve selefije nisu iste pa tako i među njima postoje različite frakcije, ali se za razliku od hanefijskog mezheba koji se bavi "uzrokom", isti više bave "posljedicom".

[madner]

Znaci kada je u pitanju vehabizam tu smo uvijek spremni se pozvati na ocuvanje tradicionalnog islama u bosni.

A kada su u pitanju ovakve devijacije tu smo otvoreni ???

Kako sad to ?

elhamdullilah sijje nemaju sanse medju Bosnjama,a ovakva razmisljanja poput madnerova mozes samo naci na sa-x nigdje drugo(hvala Bogu)

Kakva vidjenja?

Sta je upitno?

[NIN]

Boga mi ovi nisu moja bracha

postojala je jedna muslimanska sekta slicna danasnjim sijjama za vrijeme hazreti Alija r.a,pa je Ali r.a nakon sto je cuo za njih naredio da ih se spali zive.izmedju ostalog su se molili Aliju r.a...kao i danasnje sijje


sta li bi tek radio ovim ljudima,posebno s obzirom da se pozivaju na njega..a cini mi se ima jedan hadis,.kada je Ali r.a cuo da ga neki nemuslimani podrzavaju poceo je plakati..jer se uplasio da negdje grijesi,s obzirom da ga kafiri podrzavaju

Pitanje je sta bi ti uradio ovakvim ljudima koji se mole istom bogu kao i ti i koji uce iz iste svete Knjige kao i ti.

Dakle?

[portfast]

Boga mi ovi nisu moja bracha

postojala je jedna muslimanska sekta slicna danasnjim sijjama za vrijeme hazreti Alija r.a,pa je Ali r.a nakon sto je cuo za njih naredio da ih se spali zive.izmedju ostalog su se molili Aliju r.a...kao i danasnje sijje


sta li bi tek radio ovim ljudima,posebno s obzirom da se pozivaju na njega..a cini mi se ima jedan hadis,.kada je Ali r.a cuo da ga neki nemuslimani podrzavaju poceo je plakati..jer se uplasio da negdje grijesi,s obzirom da ga kafiri podrzavaju

Pitanje je sta bi ti uradio ovakvim ljudima koji se mole istom bogu kao i ti i koji uce iz iste svete Knjige kao i ti.

Dakle?

Pitanje za tebe kolega.

Da li bi tebi smetalo da se u dogledno vrijeme u nasem glavnom gradu pocnu upraznjavati oni šiitski rituali samokažnjavanja ??

Da te cujem tolerantni.

[Latina]

Odakle taj obicaj "samokaznjavanja" vodi porijeklo - iz paganskog doba ?

[NIN]

Pitanje je sta bi ti uradio ovakvim ljudima koji se mole istom bogu kao i ti i koji uce iz iste svete Knjige kao i ti.

Dakle?

Pitanje za tebe kolega.

Da li bi tebi smetalo da se u dogledno vrijeme u nasem glavnom gradu pocnu upraznjavati oni šiitski rituali samokažnjavanja ??

Da te cujem tolerantni.

Haman da vama treba jedan podug sat iz historije i antropologije. Al' to je tema sama za sebe.

Nego, iskreno da ti kazem, kad bi se to i desilo, mada od toga u dogledno vrijeme nema nista jer je u pitanju mnostvo socioloskih i antropoloskih faktora koji to naprosto ne bi dopustili, ne bi mi pretjerano smetalo. Rituala mucenistva (samokaznjavanja) ima u jako mnogo kultura sirom planete i da bi se isti razumjeli potrebno je mnogo vise znanja od onog dogmatskog kojeg religijske institucije plasiraju svojim konzumentima.

I da, daleko sam ja od tolerantnosti kada su u pitanju ignorantnost i neznanje!

[pure_love]

Odakle taj obicaj "samokaznjavanja" vodi porijeklo - iz paganskog doba ?

vjerovatno,bar je u islamu zabranjeno

[madner]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remembrance_of_Muharram

mada je wikipedia strasno los izvor.

[istocnjak]

Da li bi tebi smetalo da se u dogledno vrijeme u nasem glavnom gradu pocnu upraznjavati oni šiitski rituali samokažnjavanja ??

Da možda malo ne pretjeruješ?

[NIN]

Odakle taj obicaj "samokaznjavanja" vodi porijeklo - iz paganskog doba ?

U sustini svi religijski rituali, u koje spada i prakticiranje molitve jednom ili vise bozanstava, su univerzalno paganski obicaji!

[istocnjak]

Odakle taj obicaj "samokaznjavanja" vodi porijeklo - iz paganskog doba ?

U sustini svi religijski rituali, u koje spada i prakticiranje molitve jednom ili vise bozanstava, su univerzalno paganski obicaji!

Zaboravio si napisati "... što se tiće obožavanja kipova".

[NIN]

Odakle taj obicaj "samokaznjavanja" vodi porijeklo - iz paganskog doba ?

U sustini svi religijski rituali, u koje spada i prakticiranje molitve jednom ili vise bozanstava, su univerzalno paganski obicaji!

Zaboravio si napisati "... što se tiće obožavanja kipova".

Siguran?

[JThomas]

Pitanje za tebe kolega.

Da li bi tebi smetalo da se u dogledno vrijeme u nasem glavnom gradu pocnu upraznjavati oni šiitski rituali samokažnjavanja ??

Da te cujem tolerantni.

evo, službeno proglašavam, ti si jedini i najveći vjernik ovdje, svi su oni inovatori u vjeri, prikriveni šiiti, pagani i kjafiri, i njihove nane isto...

je li ti lakše?

[izvor]

evo, službeno proglašavam, ti si jedini i najveći vjernik ovdje, svi su oni inovatori u vjeri, prikriveni šiiti, pagani i kjafiri, i njihove nane isto...

je li ti lakše?

Jos samo Airwaves.

[Latina]

U sustini svi religijski rituali, u koje spada i prakticiranje molitve jednom ili vise bozanstava, su univerzalno paganski obicaji!

Samo zato sto ti nemas hrabrosti zaputiti se prema M. Everestu, ne znaci da isti ne postoji, i da ga mnogi nisu dosegli.

[Latina]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remembrance_of_Muharram

mada je wikipedia strasno los izvor.

Jeste. I nisam pitala sta je razlog "samokaznjavanju", vec zbog cega samoranjavanje i samobicevanje ? Svi Islamofobi listom koriste ove fotografije sa Ashure, kao "krunski" dokaz da je Islam "primitivna i nazadna" religija. Ali ( sad se iznenadi ). Ovi obicaji potjecu iz paganskog doba a zatim su nastavljeni u kriscanstvu, tacnije Katolicanstvu.

Flagellation (usually with whips) has been associated with religious fervor from pagan times. In ancient Egypt devotees of the goddess Isis scourged themselves at an annual festival. According to Pausanias, women were flogged in the temple of Dionysus. Plutarch states that the priests of Cybele were flogged in the temple of the goddess.

In the Christian religion, flagellation found many rationalizations. It was used as an official punishment for priests and monks, a self-inflicted penance, and a dramatization of the sufferings of Christ There was an epidemic of flagellant sects in Europe during the tenth and fourteenth centuries, associated with penance and love of Christ, and the Catholic authorities took extreme measures to suppress what they considered a morbid enthusiasm for the act. In Latin American countries, flagellation still occurs at religious processions of penitentes.

Symbolic whippings have also been associated with certain Tibetan and Mongolian sects, and some American Indian tribes used whipping to test the endurance of young males in ritual ordeals. In the witchcraft movement of the mid-twentieth century, flagellation was introduced by Gerald Gardner; it is used both as a means of exciting psychic awareness and as a disciplinary measure.

Jos malo o "uzbudljivoj" praksi samoranjavanja :

During the Middle Ages, various ascetic sects within the Mediterranean and Hibernian world adopted the practice of flagellation; ritual scourging of the flesh with a whip for the purpose of cleansing the soul of sin.

Among Christian religious communities, where flagellation was most systematically integrated into devotional life, flagellation was performed as a memorial to an act of sacrifice that occurred centuries in the past, the suffering and martyrdom of Jesus Christ.

Personal acts of self-immolation by monks, nuns, and other holy people imitated biblical descriptions of Christ's journey to Calvary for crucifixion, the primordial moment of Christian sacrifice, when life beyond the grave was supposed to have been achieved. Mimetic flagellation was done in the belief that bodily suffering atoned for offenses against God and satisfied divine justice.

Penitential obligations imposed by the church hierarchy over the lay population extended the practice of remunerative suffering in the high Middle Ages. Flagellation of a voluntary nature was appropriated soon thereafter by lay members of society in Italy, Greece, Germany, and Poland.

During the fourteenth century, public processions of ritual scourging were formed with the intention of appeasing God's wrath in order to secure communal health against the bubonic plague. At a slightly later date, towards the end of the fifteenth century, voluntary scourging became public in Spain, where it took on its most elaborate and ceremonial forms.

Young men who called themselves disciplinantes, the flagellators, organized into religious brotherhoods for the specific purpose of scourging the flesh ‘in payment for all the sins of the Christian people’. These collective orders of storytellers reproduced during Holy Week the mournful scriptural saga of redemption by inscribing on their backs the blood that was thought once to have been shed by Christ. The men who chose to participate in the annual performances of penitence initially met together in private in parish churches and local monasteries, to contemplate Christ's suffering and share in evening meals. They extended to one another signs of affection and goodwill and offered apologies for past offences. Wedded in a state of grace and freed of animosity, they silently journeyed out on to dirt and cobblestone streets, walking barefoot through narrow corridors of urban and rural thoroughfares for distances of some two to five leagues.On the way they scourged themselves, flailing long, knotted and wax-tipped ropes across their backs until blood drenched their linen tunics and spilled over on to darkened pavements. As much as a pound of coagulated blood was noted to have been shed by individual flagellants during these paschal ceremonies.

It was because of the physical strength and endurance required to perform in front of the public with unwavering resolve that corporate legislation required that flagellation only be performed by men under the age of fifty in good health.

The flagellants' re-enactment of Christ's sacrifice, in processions that riddled the surface of public streets with the blood of inhabitants, exposes for us a dual meaning to bodily ritual in the religious observances of traditional communities Ritual is a means first and foremost, as Mircea Eliade has demonstrated forcefully in The Sacred and the Profane, of spanning the chronological distance between present and past and perpetuating memories of a people's supernatural origins. The theological message of ritual scourging was made clear to spectators in formal pronouncements. As young men solemnly raised lashes over their heads, public oracles announced that

‘this is done in honor and reverence of the shedding of His precious blood, and in honor of the five thousand lashes that they gave Him in order to redeem and save us’.

Along with this commemorative function, a second, more immediate and personal meaning was expressed in these ceremonial acts. Suffering and affliction experienced by all who followed Christ, it was collectively articulated, had the continued power to cleanse, to heal, and to restore moral order. This was why Holy Week exercises did not merely recall, in an abstract manner, an act of sanctifying pain that had occurred once already in the past, but actively emulated this sanctification process in the present.


Through the experience of genuine pain, penitents were laying claim to their immediate sense of control over morality and collective justice. Flagellants were rehearsing a past that continued to live on in their emotional appreciation of the world, causing their own blood to mingle with that of Christ's memory to bring down upon the community divine grace.

Dakle, ova praksa izvorno je bila koristena u pagansko doba, preuzeta je od katolicanstva ( i danas se provodi u pojedinim dijelovima Filipinina npr ) a onda je preuzeta od Sija.

Jedno je sigurno - ovo nije islamska praksa.

[dr.gog]

Lijenost prevođenja opet moram čitat tri puta da skontam...elem, zdravim razumom kad čovjek razmotri i očima kad vidi..ne bih unižavao ničiju tradiciju, ali meni lično izgleda i djeluje kao paganski običaj.Kako god,za poštovat je činjenicu da ga neko smatra za svoj običaj i ne smeta nikome sa njim.
Isto tako smatram za bizaran i ničim u Knjizi utemeljen katoličko-kršćanski običaj stroge pokore tjelesnim kažnjavanjem(kao što je puzanje po kamenju kamenih staza koje vode ka pojedinim manastirima, svetištima, ili pak mistično pravljenje"pavlovih čireva" i slično kod jezuita sa posebnim misijama-od čega je ubleha Dandavinči Brown namlatio milione od čitača na plažama i taze probuđenih kritičara Stolarevog lika i djela)..

[zaratustra]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remembrance_of_Muharram

mada je wikipedia strasno los izvor.

Jeste. I nisam pitala sta je razlog "samokaznjavanju", vec zbog cega samoranjavanje i samobicevanje ? Svi Islamofobi listom koriste ove fotografije sa Ashure, kao "krunski" dokaz da je Islam "primitivna i nazadna" religija. Ali ( sad se iznenadi ). Ovi obicaji potjecu iz paganskog doba a zatim su nastavljeni u kriscanstvu, tacnije Katolicanstvu.

Flagellation (usually with whips) has been associated with religious fervor from pagan times. In ancient Egypt devotees of the goddess Isis scourged themselves at an annual festival. According to Pausanias, women were flogged in the temple of Dionysus. Plutarch states that the priests of Cybele were flogged in the temple of the goddess.

In the Christian religion, flagellation found many rationalizations. It was used as an official punishment for priests and monks, a self-inflicted penance, and a dramatization of the sufferings of Christ There was an epidemic of flagellant sects in Europe during the tenth and fourteenth centuries, associated with penance and love of Christ, and the Catholic authorities took extreme measures to suppress what they considered a morbid enthusiasm for the act. In Latin American countries, flagellation still occurs at religious processions of penitentes.

Symbolic whippings have also been associated with certain Tibetan and Mongolian sects, and some American Indian tribes used whipping to test the endurance of young males in ritual ordeals. In the witchcraft movement of the mid-twentieth century, flagellation was introduced by Gerald Gardner; it is used both as a means of exciting psychic awareness and as a disciplinary measure.

Jos malo o "uzbudljivoj" praksi samoranjavanja :

During the Middle Ages, various ascetic sects within the Mediterranean and Hibernian world adopted the practice of flagellation; ritual scourging of the flesh with a whip for the purpose of cleansing the soul of sin.

Among Christian religious communities, where flagellation was most systematically integrated into devotional life, flagellation was performed as a memorial to an act of sacrifice that occurred centuries in the past, the suffering and martyrdom of Jesus Christ.

Personal acts of self-immolation by monks, nuns, and other holy people imitated biblical descriptions of Christ's journey to Calvary for crucifixion, the primordial moment of Christian sacrifice, when life beyond the grave was supposed to have been achieved. Mimetic flagellation was done in the belief that bodily suffering atoned for offenses against God and satisfied divine justice.

Penitential obligations imposed by the church hierarchy over the lay population extended the practice of remunerative suffering in the high Middle Ages. Flagellation of a voluntary nature was appropriated soon thereafter by lay members of society in Italy, Greece, Germany, and Poland.

During the fourteenth century, public processions of ritual scourging were formed with the intention of appeasing God's wrath in order to secure communal health against the bubonic plague. At a slightly later date, towards the end of the fifteenth century, voluntary scourging became public in Spain, where it took on its most elaborate and ceremonial forms.

Young men who called themselves disciplinantes, the flagellators, organized into religious brotherhoods for the specific purpose of scourging the flesh ‘in payment for all the sins of the Christian people’. These collective orders of storytellers reproduced during Holy Week the mournful scriptural saga of redemption by inscribing on their backs the blood that was thought once to have been shed by Christ. The men who chose to participate in the annual performances of penitence initially met together in private in parish churches and local monasteries, to contemplate Christ's suffering and share in evening meals. They extended to one another signs of affection and goodwill and offered apologies for past offences. Wedded in a state of grace and freed of animosity, they silently journeyed out on to dirt and cobblestone streets, walking barefoot through narrow corridors of urban and rural thoroughfares for distances of some two to five leagues.On the way they scourged themselves, flailing long, knotted and wax-tipped ropes across their backs until blood drenched their linen tunics and spilled over on to darkened pavements. As much as a pound of coagulated blood was noted to have been shed by individual flagellants during these paschal ceremonies.

It was because of the physical strength and endurance required to perform in front of the public with unwavering resolve that corporate legislation required that flagellation only be performed by men under the age of fifty in good health.

The flagellants' re-enactment of Christ's sacrifice, in processions that riddled the surface of public streets with the blood of inhabitants, exposes for us a dual meaning to bodily ritual in the religious observances of traditional communities Ritual is a means first and foremost, as Mircea Eliade has demonstrated forcefully in The Sacred and the Profane, of spanning the chronological distance between present and past and perpetuating memories of a people's supernatural origins. The theological message of ritual scourging was made clear to spectators in formal pronouncements. As young men solemnly raised lashes over their heads, public oracles announced that

‘this is done in honor and reverence of the shedding of His precious blood, and in honor of the five thousand lashes that they gave Him in order to redeem and save us’.

Along with this commemorative function, a second, more immediate and personal meaning was expressed in these ceremonial acts. Suffering and affliction experienced by all who followed Christ, it was collectively articulated, had the continued power to cleanse, to heal, and to restore moral order. This was why Holy Week exercises did not merely recall, in an abstract manner, an act of sanctifying pain that had occurred once already in the past, but actively emulated this sanctification process in the present.


Through the experience of genuine pain, penitents were laying claim to their immediate sense of control over morality and collective justice. Flagellants were rehearsing a past that continued to live on in their emotional appreciation of the world, causing their own blood to mingle with that of Christ's memory to bring down upon the community divine grace.

Dakle, ova praksa izvorno je bila koristena u pagansko doba, preuzeta je od katolicanstva ( i danas se provodi u pojedinim dijelovima Filipinina npr ) a onda je preuzeta od Sija.

Jedno je sigurno - ovo nije islamska praksa.

Ma naravno da nije islamska praksa, i ja mislim da je i neki njihovi (šiitski) autoriteti osuđuju. Međutim, koliko sam ja uspio skontati njen uzrok leži u želji da se solidarišu sa događajima na Kerbeli. Lično mislim da fulaju.

[madner]

U biti je jako "anti islamska" tradicija, jer je zabranjeno samom sebi nanosit stetu.
I ne praktikuju je ni svi shiiti, a to sto islamophobi koriste...

Da vide djete sa batmenovim kostimom rekli bi da trenira za samoubicu.

[black]

Ma naravno da nije islamska praksa, i ja mislim da je i neki njihovi (šiitski) autoriteti osuđuju. Međutim, koliko sam ja uspio skontati njen uzrok leži u želji da se solidarišu sa događajima na Kerbeli. Lično mislim da fulaju.

naravno da nije praksa, to je vise vezano za obichaj, a obichaji nisu sastavni dio prakse islama vec samo jednog naroda, kulture, podneblja itd.,(u ostalom imamo i mi masu nakih lijevih obichaja) cak je fetvom i zabranjeno..

[pure_love]

Radi se o tome da zele osjetiti bol i patnju Huseinove r.a smrti,i sami sebe kazniti jer ga nisu uspjeli spasiti..jer smatraju da su to morali.To naravno veze s islamom nema,i koliko znam sijjske ajatole su to oharamili..ne znam zasto se i dalje onda praktikuje?

[JThomas]

mislim, to postoji u manje-više svim religijama i svim vremenima, mada ga nijedna izričito ne naređuje, a neke ga izričito i zabranjuju.

šta zaključiti nego da je čovjek po prirodi sadomazohističko biće...