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Skaras
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#76

Post by Skaras »

Kljuc!

Nismo imali tvornicu carapa al' nam je pilana fercerala ko' curica a o piljarnicama da ne govorim! :D
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KAMI666
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#77

Post by KAMI666 »

Buzim :bih:
:D
Helem
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#78

Post by Helem »

Dobro je Bumbar....
sve je all right, sto bi Amer rekao a mi da je sve u redu,i bez Amera...

Banja Luka.....isprva se zvala samo LUKA, Vrbas silazi u dolinu na podrucju sadasnje Banjaluke, a dodatni naziv je prikljucen na osnovu postojanja ljekovitih banja u okolini, te toplih hamama u Seheru,najstarijem urbanom dijelu sadasnje Banjaluke....

Meni je malo zacudno da ja kao Kotorvarosanin moram sada pisati od Banjaluci,kao da ovdje nema nijednog Banjalucanina.

Ako se Banjalucani ne pocnu javljati onda cu vam pisati price o njima.
Otocanka
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#79

Post by Otocanka »

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Nosferatu
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#80

Post by Nosferatu »

Ako se Banjalucani ne pocnu javljati onda cu vam pisati price o njima.
De ti - otopcni, a ako koji naleti, pridruzice se oni nama, ne brini...
Helem
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#81

Post by Helem »

nece, u tome je problem.
Jako su izdrzljivi i fleksibilni, mogu otrpiti sve.
Nema izdrzljivijih ljudi od Banjalucana, sve im moze stati u obraz i opet im sve svejedno, jebali bi se za dinar, suti gubim napredak citavu heftu kada samo cujem da je neko iz Banjaluke.
Dwndler
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#82

Post by Dwndler »

Bojim se da si upravo izgubio napredak:)
A u skoli sam ucio verziju o nastanku imena Banja Luka po banjama(ljekovite banje i prirodni izvori ljekovite vode) i lukama( tj. polja oko Vrbasa), a za tvoju verziju tipa Banovina nisam cuo, jer koliko mi je poznato prvi put se spominje ime Banja Luka negdje 1492. godine (ovo je po sjecanju iz skole, ako sam fulio nek mi eksperti oproste)
Mozda u tvojoj tezi o banjalucanima ima i istine, ali da smo posebni jesmo:)
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Nosferatu
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#83

Post by Nosferatu »

Dwndler wrote:Bojim se da si upravo izgubio napredak:)
A u skoli sam ucio verziju o nastanku imena Banja Luka po banjama(ljekovite banje i prirodni izvori ljekovite vode) i lukama( tj. polja oko Vrbasa), a za tvoju verziju tipa Banovina nisam cuo, jer koliko mi je poznato prvi put se spominje ime Banja Luka negdje 1492. godine (ovo je po sjecanju iz skole, ako sam fulio nek mi eksperti oproste)
Mozda u tvojoj tezi o banjalucanima ima i istine, ali da smo posebni jesmo:)

Serb’ towns in Bosnia

by Ivan Lovrenovic

‘Serb’ towns in Bosnia - on ideological toponymy in our recent history



Sejfudin Tokic obviously carried out some serious formal consultations before deciding to direct to the Constitutional Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina his initiative to eliminate the attribute ‘Serb’ from the names of towns in Republika Srpska decorated with this adornment by the wartime government of the SDS and Radovan Karadzic. His proposal did not include all the other changed names, presumably because it was those with ethnic attributes that could be shown with the most convincing arguments to be in violation of the Dayton Peace Agreement and the Constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina, to be an active impediment to the return of deportees and refugees, and also to constitute a direct manifestation of a policy of apartheid and ethnic discrimination.

That this question has an explicitly political and ideological background was proved by the swift reaction of politicians from Republika Srpska. The watchful guardians of Serbdom and a Serb state in Bosnia-Herzegovina immediately recognised Tokic’s initiative as neither more nor less than a plan for the abolition of Republika Srpska itself. How the Constitutional Court will respond and what it will decide is impossible to predict. But it is clear that this is going to be one of the important tests on the painful and uncertain journey to the re-civilisation of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Two-part names

In our toponymy there are not many two-part names made up of an adjective and a noun, and they are usually from recent history. The few exceptions are rather significant.

One is the name of the ancient Bosnian town of Banja Luka. This name bears within it a thousand years of social, historical and cultural memory and linguistic melody. The etymology of this name, hence also its meaning, are most clearly revealed by the way it has been pronounced and inflected by the original inhabitants of Banja Luka and Bosnia. Rarely would you hear them say: Banja-luka, Banjaluke, or Banja Luke, Banja Luci, but rather: Bânja Luka, Bânje Luke, Bânjoj Luci, Bânjom Lukom... This is because the etymology of this name has nothing to do with banja [spa] or luka [harbour], which is what most of its present-day inhabitants - who have no intimate relationship with either the tradition of the town or the melody of its language - must think, to judge by their pronunciation. The first word of the name is an old (mediaeval) form of possessive adjective derived from the noun ban [governor], while the second word is the common archaic luka, of which there are thousands in Bosnia, meaning cultivable land, a meadow near water ( in this case, of course, near the Vrbas). Hence: banova luka, the Ban’s meadow. Thus does history forget facts (which Ban?, how did he get the meadow?, when did it happen? - we know nothing of this); and thus can language preserve an imprint of social reality, and above all the music of accent, quantity and intonation.

From an earlier history, another kind of two-part name is familiar. This is the little list of vakufs: Varcar, Donji and Gornji, Skucani, Kulen, Skender. In the name of the first of these, the cultural and historical memory of two or three thousand years is compressed in a fascinating manner. It embraces layers of civilizational ‘records’ of the pre-Roman and pre-Slav metallurgists of the ancient ‘Illyrian’, then mediaeval Slav settlement of Varcarevo, via the establishment of a new settlement (Krzlaragin vakuf) after the Ottoman conquest in the sixteenth century, to the gradual fusion of names and settlements into one: Varcar Vakuf, which has lasted for a few centuries.

New two-part names of settlements and towns began to multiply in Bosnia when, along with Austro-Hungary, a ‘civilization of administration’ arrived. Huge campaigns of cadastral surveying and the establishment of tax and property registries and censuses, an attempted cartographic survey of the entire country, a passionate interest in geological, archaeological, geographical and ethnographic research - all this created a need for the greatest possible toponymic precision, to avoid confusion and duplication. It was then that the adjective Bosnian was administratively prefixed to the names of that series of towns on the rivers Una and Sava, so that they could be distinguished from their twin settlements on the other bank: Bosanska Kostajnica, Bosanski Novi, Bosanska Dubica, Bosanski Kobas, Bosanski Brod, Bosanska Gradiska, Bosanska Krupa, Bosanski Samac...

Advent of ideology

The new fashion for ideological toponymy arrived with the first Yugoslavia. One innocent victim of that fashion, for instance, was Varcar Vakuf. In 1924 they officially renamed it Mrkonjic-Grad, in order to glorify the ‘old king’ Petar Karadjordjevic and commemorate his ‘Chetnik exploits’ under the hajduk [bandit] pseudonym Petar Mrkonjic, during the uprising of 1875-78, somewhere on the border between Bosnia and Lika, in Crni Potoci. The ‘old king’ had never seen or been anywhere near Varcar, nor had his Chetnik exploits lasted very long or been particularly glorious. Milan Karanovic gave an apologetic account of them in his pamphlet The Chetnik Exploits of Duke Petar Mrkonjic (Petar N. Gakovic Press, Sarajevo 1921), while the real scale of the uprising in the Bosnian krajina was described in picaresquely glowing images by ‘Duke’ Pero Kreco, a merchant from Varcar. I received a typed version of his autobiography as a gift from Ivo Andric, in an envelope addressed in his own hand in the late seventies; the intermediary was Branko Copic, who was unrivalled in his knowledge of the merry history of hajduk life in the microcosm of Bosnia and Lika. Is there any need even to mention the fact that the yellow envelope had a very special place amongst my other papers. Who knows what happened to my ‘Kreco’, like all my other papers, after the occupation of Grbavica in 1992? Perhaps that esteemed man of letters Nedjo Sipovac, who headed something called the National Library there, said to be ‘concerned with rescuing’ books, manuscripts, documents...

A year after Varcar, the name of another ancient Bosnian settlement was ideologically adapted. In the name of eternal ‘three names - one nation’ love and unity, King Aleksandar named his son after the legendary Croatian king Tomislav; and in 1925, under the exalted patronage of the Court, the (approximate) thousandth anniversary was celebrated of the Svehrvatski Sabor [ All Croatian Parliament] held on Duvanjsko Polje in 925 AD (as was ‘confirmed incontrovertibly by rigorous methods of critical historiography’ in the renowned literary text by Father Dukljanin!). On this occasion the name Tomislavgrad (but called after whom - King Tomislav or the young Karadjordjevic prince?) replaced the ancient Delmato-Roman-Bosnian-Croat name Duvno. The new, present-day Tomislavgradjani (is that what the Duvnjaci now call themselves?), who for the second time have given the town back its ‘old’ name, each year when they celebrate Tomislav’s Sabor should give at least a bit of credit to their first godfather, Aleksandar Karadjordjevic.

We had some experience with the same kind of ideological nomenclature in the second Yugoslavia too, particularly in its first period. Then we saw places called Kardeljevo, Pucarevo or Kidricevo springing up on all sides, while towns bearing Tito’s name are too numerous to be listed. Yet the SDS’s ‘Serbianization’ of towns is something totally new, differing from all previous ideological changes. After dreadful and bloody events, it arrives to confirm on the symbolic-political plane what in those events was done with physical force and crime. So the adjective ‘Serb’ in the names of certain settlements today does not just have the exclusivistic national significance that its creators intended, but emits an even more powerful sense of foreboding and sinister shudder at the memory of those events. The pre-war, non-Serb inhabitants of those towns are particularly well aware of this, since it is a psychological tool - and one of the most powerful - invisibly preventing their return.


But is it not possible to speak also of a psychological and political reverse side of this? By calling towns (and a ‘state’) conspicuously and emphatically ‘Serb’, are the advocates of such names not themselves revealing a certain - socio-psychologically rather dangerous - symptom of foreignness, or rootlessness? I cannot recall that the name of any French, German, Russian or Italian town is prefixed by a possessive adjective derived from the name of that country or people! Something instinctively and naturally felt to be one’s own does not need to be so declaratively named as such.

Translated from Dani (Sarajevo), 20 July 2001
AjvazDedo
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#84

Post by AjvazDedo »

Nikad nisam bio siguran ako je Prnjavor
u Bosanskoj Krajini, ili ako je vise u Posavini....
znaci pripadam Krajisnicima :D
lost&found
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#85

Post by lost&found »

banja luka & bos.otoka mix :D

ima me malo i u hercegovini :-)
Dwndler
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#86

Post by Dwndler »

Nosferatu:

Sa zadrskom da sam samo procitao ono podebljano( a ne tuknem na Brut i potkoseno sijeno), izgleda da sam u pravu u polovici svoje teorije. Znaci rijec luka nije od luke za brodove vec od poljana uz Vrbas, ako me moj engleski ne vara puno. Mozda je potrebno naglasiti da sam za svoje tumacenje nastanka rijeci Banjaluka cuo 1985., kad sam isao u 1. razred, na nekom od casova poznavanja prirode i drustva u doba kad je mali Joza visio iznad table(moji starci bi rekli dok je Bog po zemlji hodao). Znaci ne radi se o novopecenoj verziji nastanka imena, mada se za vrijeme agresije ono malo vremena sto sam proveo u BL, sjecam pominjanja promjene imena Banja Luka u srpska palanka:)
Ime grada nisu mjenjali, ali su zato dohakali naseljima koja podsjecaju na "Turke" Mejdan, Hiseta, Gornji Seher(pretezno bosnjacko stanovnistvo prije rata) i Budzak.
U tekstu se spominje taj ban, ali niko ne zna ime bana. Moje nepoznavanje historije srednjovjekovne Bosne postavlja pitanje da li ih je uopste bilo oko 1492. godine i gdje(banova), ukoliko je teorija o prvom pominjanju imena Banja Luka tacna.
Budi mi pozdravljena
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Nosferatu
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#87

Post by Nosferatu »

Evo da ti ja odgovorim - u kratkim crtama.

Prvo - Ivan Lovrenovic je - mozda jedan od najvecih istorijskih autoriteta koje mi imamo u BiH.

Drugo sto se prevoda tice - ako treba pomoci evo i to da uradim.
One is the name of the ancient Bosnian town of Banja Luka. This name bears within it a thousand years of social, historical and cultural memory and linguistic melody. The etymology of this name, hence also its meaning, are most clearly revealed by the way it has been pronounced and inflected by the original inhabitants of Banja Luka and Bosnia. Rarely would you hear them say: Banja-luka, Banjaluke, or Banja Luke, Banja Luci, but rather: Bânja Luka, Bânje Luke, Bânjoj Luci, Bânjom Lukom... This is because the etymology of this name has nothing to do with banja [spa] or luka [harbour], which is what most of its present-day inhabitants - who have no intimate relationship with either the tradition of the town or the melody of its language - must think, to judge by their pronunciation. The first word of the name is an old (mediaeval) form of possessive adjective derived from the noun ban [governor], while the second word is the common archaic luka, of which there are thousands in Bosnia, meaning cultivable land, a meadow near water ( in this case, of course, near the Vrbas). Hence: banova luka, the Ban’s meadow. Thus does history forget facts (which Ban?, how did he get the meadow?, when did it happen? - we know nothing of this); and thus can language preserve an imprint of social reality, and above all the music of accent, quantity and intonation
Jedno je ime starog Bosanskog grada Banja Luke. Njeno ime sadrzi u sebi hiljade godina socijalnog, historijskog i kulturoloskog nasljeda i lingvisticke melodije. Etimologija ovog imena tj. znacenje istog se najjasnije otkriva u nacinu na koji se izgovarao od strane starosjedilaca Banjaluke i Bosne. Rijetko bi ih cuo da govore Banja-luka (kao Banja - ustanova s ljekovitom vodom) vec Banja luka (izvedenica od rijeci Ban - pa Bannija Luka - nagasak uz otezanje na drugom slovu A a ne prvom B te rijeci). To je zato sto porijeklo ove rijeci nema nista zajednicko sa Banjom niti Lukom, sto je ono sto danasnji stanovnici koji nemaju intimnog odnosa sa tradicijom ovog grada i melodijom njegovog jezika - sigurno misle sudeci po svom izgovoru. Prva rijec je ime stare - srednjovjekovne forme pridjeva koji je derivat imenice ban/guverner. dok je druga rijec cesta arhaicka luka - od kojih je na hiljade u Bosni - i znaci obradiva zemlja, poljana u blizini vode (u ovom slucaju - pored Vrbasa). Tako istorija zaboravlja cinjenice (koji ban, kako je dosao do poljane, kad se je to desilo, o tome nista ne znamo) i tako moze jezik biti spasitelj drustvene stvarnosti , i prije svega sve muzike akcenta, koilicine i intonacije....


To ti je prevod.

A Banja Luka - kao geografski pojam - je sluzila dugo kao mjesto kroz koje je prolazio put i vezao provincije Rimnske Dalmaciju sa Panonijom. Onda je tu napravljena i utvrda Kastel - koja je starija od grada - samog po sebi, ali regija oko njega je mozda nazvana - Banja Luka. Kasnije dolazi tu i Franjevacki manastir. Bosna je pala pod Turke 1463-ce i od te godine - banova vise nema. Ali - ban sam p osebi - je titula koju su nosali mnogi - i u RH i u BiH prije dolaska Turaka - tako da to bitno ne mjenja gore navedenu cinjenicu da ime grada je po poljani - koju je najvjerovatnije Ban zauzeo - od Austro-Ugarske. tj. Hrvatske. Banja Luka je bila - u Srednjovjekovnoj BiH - dok gradovi kao Bihac nikad nisu.

Ima toga jako mnogo, sto smo mi zaboravili i previdili. A i ti sam mozes - da se prisjetis - koliko si vremena proveo uceci istoriju Bosanskih banova i srednjovjekovne kraljevske porodice - vjerovatno i zasigurno malo. Barem ja znam - da je bila ogromna razlika u akcentu istorijske edukacije po povom pitanju prije i tokom/poslje ovog rata, valjda jer se drzava Jugoslavija nije bazirala - na Banovima Bosanskim ali BiH kao drzava itekako bi trebala da se bazira na njihovim zaostavstinama.

Uglavnom - uci, citaj, proucavaj...Nemoj da ti drugi daju odgovore - i odraduju matematiku za tebe.

Nego mene interesuje - kako su drugi gradovi u Krajini dobil ime - ako ko zna - neka napise. Nije na odmet. Konkretno - Bihac, Cazin, Kladusa, Prijedor, Petrovac ( po kojem Petru? Kralju?) itd...
neupucena
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#88

Post by neupucena »

Naziv Prijedor po nekim predanjima potiče od toga što su se na prijedorskom polju često održavale konjske trke, pa je narod vikao prije..dor. Dor je ustvari bila skraćenica od dorat/ konj. Spajanjem ovih dviju riječi nastalo je ime Prijedor.
Po drugoj, možda vjerovatnijoj verziji, ime je nastalo od riječi pridor. Naime riječ je o vodi tj. rijeci Sani koja je ispod Hambarina napravila pridor ili prodor. Pa tako vremenon od Pridora nasta Prijedor.
Dwndler
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#89

Post by Dwndler »

Hvala na prevodu, ali nije trebalo, dovoljno razumijem engleski da mogu skontat sta pise. Sto se Ivana Lovrenovica tice, u njegovu velicinu nisam ni sumnjao niti poricem cinjenice koje istice u tekstu. Evo i za Prijedor postoje dvije verzije nastanka imena grada, pa nebi cudilo da postoje i dvije za Banja Luku.
A stoji i cinjenica da otezemo malo kod izgovora pojedinih rijeci:)
Sto se vremena provedenog uceci srednjovjekovnu Bosnu u osnovnoj skoli tice kao sto i sama kazes ono je vrlo kratko(u srednju u Bosni nisam ni isao, nit sam imao istroriju kao predmet:)
Cinjenica je(tuzna) da politika odredjuje istoriju koja ce se uciti i onu koja nece, pa je tako SFRJ ili cak i SRBiH smanjila srednjovjekovnu Bosnu, ali sam zato znao o raznoraznim Raskim i inim srednjovjekovnim zemljama(istocno od rijeke Drine) i njihovim junacima( tj. ucio, ali se detalja slabo sjecam)
U svakom slucaju hvala na utrosenom trudu i vremenu.
Anarhija
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#90

Post by Anarhija »

:D KOTOR VAROS :bih:
Helem
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#91

Post by Helem »

To Anarhija, dizi zastavu.
Kotor Varos, Kotor Varos, pa opet Kotor Varos...
Himera
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#92

Post by Himera »

Skaras wrote:Kljuc!

Nismo imali tvornicu carapa al' nam je pilana fercerala ko' curica a o piljarnicama da ne govorim! :D


Pa đe si zemo tu smo ja sam iz Sanice ovaj Biljani a i u G.Sanici je bila pilana i isto je fercerala
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nokia6170
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#93

Post by nokia6170 »

......
Last edited by nokia6170 on 30/03/2007 15:53, edited 1 time in total.
Helem
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#94

Post by Helem »

kada si sa Mejdana, jesi li znao moju tetku Latifu i tetka Zulkifa?
Ko je Kriv?
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#95

Post by Ko je Kriv? »

B I H A C :bih:
Helem
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#96

Post by Helem »

Želimo Vam dobru večer. Dobro došli na web site! Srijeda, 18. Listopad, 2006. http://www.kotor-varos.com - copyright © and powered by WEBArtNG

O gradu, čije ime je Kotor Varoš, postoje mnogi web site-ovi. Znači li to da o njemu vrijedi govoriti, pisati i prisjećati se. Naravno, jer bilo koji grad, bilo gdje u svijetu, ako je vaš rodni grad rado vam dolazi u sjećanje i misli. Otišao sam davno, kao petnaestogodišnjak u srednju školu i nikada se zapravo nisam vratio u svoj rodni grad. Obitelj je ostala tamo, a ja sam zasnovao svoju obitelj. Moja djeca imaju svoju djecu, a ja sam danas ponosni dida dvojice unuka.

Ove stranice nisu službeni web site grada, a posvećujem ih svim kotorvarošanima iz okolice i grada, svim ljudima dobre volje, ma gdje bili.
Ciklame. Prvo cvijeće koje sam ubrao u šumi. Uvijek me podsjećaju na sretno djetinjstvo, roditelje i rodni grad. Povijest grada
Helem
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#97

Post by Helem »

Je li lijep moj Kotor Varos? :razz:
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Bosanac_21
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#98

Post by Bosanac_21 »

dedi wrote:Bosanac_21 odakle iz Bosanskog Novog?
Iz Bosanskog Novog, kao sto vec rekoh tj. centar grada :D
Helem
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#99

Post by Helem »

u srcu grada.
sklonost
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#100

Post by sklonost »

Evo prodjoh ovu taru temu i lalano iscitah sve ovo i vidim da mi niko nema iz Cazina e dobro ja cu biti prvi iz ljute Cazinske krajine he he he.

Eto sta da kazem dodjite kod bolnice nase i pitajte za Hrganovog i nema teorije da omasite he he he, pogotovo ako odete u prodavnicu Adria poslije 12 sati radi moja komsinica u nasoj dragoj zadrugi gdje se narod okuplja odo 15:00 i lagano se prinose pokloni a kahva vruca ceka i onda lagano krece trac partija he he he.
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