P A L E S T I N A

[Golan]

Pa zasto je onda drzava Belgija tuzila Sharona zbog ratnog zlocina u Sabri i Satili?

Tuzi i moj komsija drugog komsiju sto ga nije pozdravio. pa sta? Nije okrivljen niti ima izgleda da ce biti

[JBT]

Eto, Belgija nema pojma. I eto, dize optuznice protiv predsjednika neke drzave tek tako, bez argumenata.

[Golan]

Eto, Belgija nema pojma. I eto, dize optuznice protiv predsjednika neke drzave tek tako, bez argumenata.

Da. Svako moze dici optuznicu, ali ne i dobiti slucaj. To nista ne govori

[JBT]

Tebi ne. I da ga osude, to tebi nista ne bi govorilo.

[danas]

.. Nestala vam je druga strana ove diskusije.

nije nestala druga strana...
evo si se ti king david reinkarnisao u golana...

[savjest]

Eto, Belgija nema pojma. I eto, dize optuznice protiv predsjednika neke drzave tek tako, bez argumenata.

Da. Svako moze dici optuznicu, ali ne i dobiti slucaj. To nista ne govori

Pa neka Saron dode u Belgiju ako je toliko siguran u sebe.

istog momenta bi se nasao iza resetaka.

Saron je glavni krivac za masakar u Sabri i Satili. Dokazano. kraj price.

[fi_sebilillah]

Nema veze. Znamo mi kako je i sta je i bez kvacice. I tebi opomena zbog palatelizacije.

Kad ljudi vole da se prave pametni ukljucujuci "pametne" rijeci u svoj govor, onda bi trebalo da vladaju argumentima !

Da se dogodilo jednom, mislio bi da je slucajna greska, ali kad se dva puta zaredom napise palatelizacija umjesto palatalizacija, onda to definitivno poprima oblike isforsiranog pametovanja !

[JBT]

Malo vam je mudzahedinski forum, a ipak predstavljate 'multietnicku' BIH. Nestala vam je druga strana ove diskusije

Prilicno si lak na teskim rijecima.

Onda su mudzahedini svi oni koji iz cijelog svijeta dolaze na Bliski istok da se usprotive otvorenom apartheidu od strane Izraela. Onda su mudzahedini i i oni Izraelci koji se protive istom tom apartheidu. Onda je mudzahedin i onaj Majkl Moore...... ma ima ih milijarda.

[danas]

Malo vam je mudzahedinski forum, a ipak predstavljate 'multietnicku' BIH. Nestala vam je druga strana ove diskusije.

nije nestala druga strana...
evo si se ti king david reinkarnisao u golana...

Ne znam sta da ti kazem. Mozda nas sve malo generalizujes? Citam da na diskusije ne odgovaras.

sta ti imam odgovarati? i kome? kloniras se nemilice... ako hoces diskusiju, javi se pod svojim pravim nickom, pod kojim nam ovdje svakodnevno prosipas satro zajebanciju i zezu... a kloniras se samo da kazes sta stvarno mislis...
sa takvima se nemam sta raspravljati.

[Solomon]

W e l c o m e t o [ http://www.mauspfeil.net ] Datum: 03.11.2005, 00:45 Uhr

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Differences in official languages in Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia
*** Shopping-Tip: Differences in official languages in Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia

The '''official languages in Bosnia, Croatia and Serbia and Montenegro differ''' in various aspects as outlined below. The various nuances aren't nearly as linguistically important as is the symbolic value that is assigned to them by their ethnically, religiously, socially and politically diverse group of speakers.

Writing


Writing system Script
Though all could use either, the Croatian language official language in Croatia and Bosnian language one of the official languages in Bosnia that is called Bosnian language use exclusively the Latin alphabet while the Serbian language official language in Serbia uses both Cyrillic alphabet and Latin alphabet. [Bosnian administration uses Also Cyrillic] This is possible because all official languages have the same set of regular phonemes. In some regions of Serbia and Bosnia, the sound "h" does not exist but that is not part of the official languages. In some regions of Croatia and Bosnia, the sounds "č" and "ć" and also "dž" and "đ" are either indistinct or said as ć and đ respectively, but again that is not reflected in the official language.

Orthography
The official language in Croatia alphabetically transcribes (transliteration transliterates) foreign names and often words even in children's books, while the official language in Serbia performs a phonetic transcription (linguistics) transcription of them whenever possible, regardless of alphabet. Officially the Bosnian language follows the Croatian example, but many books and newspapers phonetically transcribe foreign names. Also, when the subject of future tense is omitted, producing reversal of infinitive and auxiliary "ću", only final "i" of the infinitive is elided in Croatian, while in Serbian and Bosnian vernacular the two are merged into single word: * "Uradit ću to." (Croatian/Bosnian) * "Uradiću to." (Serbian) Regardless of the spelling, the pronunciation is the same.

Speaking


Accent (language) Accentuation
Accentuation of the official languages is different. However, accentuation is different within Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia themselves, see #Important notes on understanding below for full explanation. {{sectstub}}

Morphology
There are three variants of the Shtokavian dialect Štokavian dialect that stem from different reflex of proto-Slavic vowel ''jat''. The ''jat'' appears in modern dialects in the following way: the Church Slavonic word for child, d'''ě'''te, is: *d'''e'''te in Ekavian *d'''i'''te in Ikavian *d'''ije'''te in Ijekavian The official language in Serbia and Montenegro recognises ekavian and ijekavian as equal variants while the official language in Croatia uses only ijekavian. In Bosnia and Herzegovina (regardless of the official language) and in Montenegro, ijekavian is used almost exclusively. Ikavian is limited to dialectal use in Dalmatia, Istria, Western Herzegovina and northern Bačka (Vojvodina). So, for example: {| border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="5" ! English language English || ekavian || ijekavian || ikavian |- | wind || vetar || vjetar || vitar |- | milk || mleko || mlijeko || mliko |- | to want || hteti || htjeti || htiti |- | arrow || strela || strijela || strila |- | colspan="4" | '''But:''' |- valign="top" | small arrow || strelica || strelica
strjelica || strilica |} A few Croatian linguists have tried to explain the following differences in morphological structure for some words with introduction of a new vowel, "jat diphthong". This is not the opinion of most linguists. {| border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="5" ! English || Croatian (Ijekavian) || Serbian (Ekavian and Ijekavian) |- | add by pouring || dol'''ije'''vati || dol'''i'''vati |- | diarrhea || pro'''lje'''v || pro'''li'''v |- | gulf, bay || za'''lje'''v || za'''li'''v |- | to influence || ut'''je'''cati || ut'''i'''cati |} Sometimes this leads to confusion: Serbian pot'''i'''cati (to stem from) is in Croatian "to encourage". Croatian "to stem from" is pot'''je'''cati, while Serbian for "encourage" is po'''dsti'''cati. Bosnian official language allows both variants, and ambiguities are solved by preferring the Croatian variant, which is a general practice for Serbian-Croatian ambiguities. Another example for phonetical differences is words which have '''h''' in Croatian and Bosnian, but '''v''' in Serbian: {| border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="5" ! English || Serbian || Croatian and Bosnian |- | tobacco || duvan || duhan |- | to cook || kuvati || kuhati |} As ijekavian is the common dialect of all official languages, it will be used for examples on this page. Other than this, examples of different morphology are: {| border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="5" ! English || Serbian (ijekavian) || Croatian || Bosnian |- | point || tačka || točka || tačka |- | correct || tačno || točno || tačno
točno |- | municipality || opština || općina || općina |- | priest || sveštenik || svećenik || svećenik |- | male student || student || student || student |- | female student || studentkinja || studentica || studentica
(studentkinja) |- | male professor || profesor || profesor || profesor |- | female professor || profesorka || profesorica || profesorica
profesorka |- | translator || prevodilac || prevoditelj || prevodilac |- | reader || čitalac || čitatelj || čitalac |- | colspan="4" | '''But:''' |- | assembly || skupština || skupština || skupština |- | male president || predsjednik || predsjednik || predsjednik |- | female president || predsjednica || predsjednica || predsjednica |- | male Black || crnac || crnac || crnac |- | female Black || crnkinja || crnkinja || crnkinja |- | thinker || mislilac || mislilac || mislilac |- | teacher || učitelj || učitelj || učitelj |} Also many internationalism (linguistics) internationalisms are different: {| border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="5" ! English || Serbian || Croatian || Bosnian |- | to organise || organizovati || organizirati || organizovati
organizirati |- | to realise || realizovati || realizirati || realizirati |- | colspan="4" | '''But:''' |- | to analyse || analizirati || analizirati || analizirati |} This is because, historically, internationalisms entered Croatian mostly through German, while Serbian received them through French and Russian, so different localization patterns were established based on those languages. Notes: the term "ostvariti" is preferred over "realizovati/realizirati"; here the word has been used as it is an internationalism. In the Bosnian language, the variant in braces is also allowed, but the other variant is preferred. Some other imported words are of masculine gender in Serbian and Bosnian, but feminine gender in Croatian: {| border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="5" ! English || Serbian and Bosnian || Croatian |- | minute || minut || minuta |- | colspan="4" | '''But:''' |- | planet || planeta || planet |}

Syntax
With modal verbs such as ''ht(j)eti'' (want) or ''moći'' (can), infinitive is Prescription and description prescribed in Croatian, while construction ''da'' (that/to) + present tense is preferred in Serbian. Again, both alternatives are present and allowed in Bosnian. The sentence "I want to do that" could be translated with any of * "Hoću to da uradim" * "Hoću to uraditi" This difference partly extends to future tense, which in Serbo-Croatian is formed in a similar manner as in English, using (elided) present of verb "ht(j)eti" -> "hoću"/"hoćeš"/... -> "ću"/"ćeš"/... as auxiliary verb. Here, the infinitive is formally required in both variants: * "Da li ćeš to uraditi?" (Will/shall you do that?) However, when ''da''+present is used instead, it can additionally express the subject's will or intention to perform the action: * "Da li ćeš to da uradiš?" (Will you/do you want to do that?) This form is more frequently used in Serbia and Bosnia, while it can be found only occasionally in Croatian. In Croatia, the first method is preferred and the second is frowned upon although it is fairly common in the vernacular, but hyper-correctness sometimes produces awkward sentences. It is instead recommended that a different form is used: "Hoćeš li to uraditi?". The nuances in meaning between two constructs can be slight or even lost (especially in Serbian dialects), in similar manner as the shall/will distinction varies across English dialects. Overuse of ''da''+present is regarded as Germanism in Serbian linguistic circles, and it can occasionally lead to awkward sentences, for example, "I want to know whether I'll start working" would be: * "Želim da znam da li ću da počnem da radim." (spoken Serbian) * "Želim znati da li ću početi raditi" (spoken Croatian) In Croatian it is again recommended that a different form is used: "Želim znati hoću li početi raditi".

Vocabulary
Vocabulary is different to some extent. Examples: {| border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="5" ! English || in Serbia || in Croatia || in Bosnia |- | one thousand || hiljada || tisuća || hiljada
tisuća |- | January 1 || januar || siječanj || januar
siječanj |- valign=top | table || sto
astal
trpeza || stol
trpeza || sto
hastal |- | factory || fabrika || tvornica || fabrika
tvornica |- | rice || pirinač || riža || riža |- | carrot || šargarepa || mrkva || mrkva |- | oil || ulje
zejtin || ulje || ulje |- | spinach || spanać || špinat || špinat |- valign="top" | ladder || merdevine
lotre
lojtre || ljestve
skale (colloq.) || merdevine
ljestve
lotre |- valign="top" | football || fudbal || nogomet || fudbal
nogomet |- | train || voz || vlak || voz |- | wave || talas || val || talas |- | uncivil || nevaspitan || neodgojen || neodgojen |- | one's own || sopstveno || vlastito || vlastito |- valign="top" | road 2 || put
cesta
drum
džada || put
cesta || put
cesta
džada |- | colspan=4 | '''But:''' |- | passport || pasoš || ''put''ovnica || pasoš |- | tomato || paradajz || rajčica || paradajz |} 1) All month names are different. See below for full table
2) This is an excellent example of foreign influences. "Put" and "cesta" are Slavic, "drum" is Greek and "džada" is Turkish. Moreover, the central difference lies in the fact that Croatian is, unlike Serbian or Bosnian, a Croat and Bosnian neologisms purist language. Note that there are a few differences that can cause confusion, for example the verb "ličiti" means "to look like" in Serbian and Bosnian, but in Croatian it is "sličiti"; "ličiti" means "to paint". The word "bilo" means "white" in ikavian, "pulse" in official Croatian and "was" in all official languages, although it's not so confusing when pronounced because of different accentuation. Also note that in most cases Bosnian officially allows all of the listed variants in the name of "language richness" (or lack thereof), and ambiguities are resolved by preferring the Croatian variant. Generally, no rule for the vocabulary treatment in Bosnian language can be deduced. Bosnian vocabulary writers based their decisions on usage of certain words in literary works by Bosnian authors. In Croatian language months have Slavic names, while Serbian and Bosnian use the same set of international Latin-derived names as English. {| border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="5" ! English !! Croatian !! Serbian !! Bosnian |- | January || Siječanj || Januar || Januar
Siječanj |- | February || Veljača || Februar || Februar
Veljača |- | March || Ožujak || Mart || Mart
Ožujak |- | April || Travanj || April || April
Travanj |- | May || Svibanj || Maj || Maj
Svibanj |- | June || Lipanj || Jun || Jun
Lipanj |- | July || Srpanj || Jul || Jul
Srpanj |- | August || Kolovoz || Avgust || August
Kolovoz |- | September || Rujan || Septembar || Septembar
Rujan |- | October || Listopad || Oktobar || Oktobar
Listopad |- | November || Studeni || Novembar || Novembar
Studeni |- | December || Prosinac || Decembar || Decembar
Prosinac |} International names of months are well understood in Croatian and several names of internationally important events are still commonly known using the international name of the month: "1. maj", "1. april", "oktobarska revolucija".

Important notes on understanding
It is important to notice a few issues: * Pronunciation and vocabulary differs among dialects spoken within Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia themselves. Each larger region has its own pronunciation and it is reasonably easy to guess where a speaker is from by their accent and/or vocabulary. Colloquial vocabulary can be particularly different from the official standards.
This is one of the arguments for claiming it is all one and the same language: there are more differences '''within''' the official languages themselves then there are '''between''' them. * Serbs, Bosnians and Croats will each talk among themselves in a manner that may or may not be easy to understand completely to the others. But, when communicating with each other, in the interest of easier understanding, they will use terms that are even easier to understand to all.
For example, to avoid confusion with month names, they can be referred to as the "first month", "second month" and so on which makes it perfectly understandable for others. In Serbia, month names are international ones so again understandable for anyone who knows e.g. English. * Entire books and movies have been "translated" from one language to another. However, the translation of Serbian movie ''Rane (Wounds)'' into Croatian for example turned it from a tragedy into a comedy, as the whole audience was laughing at the "translation." On the other hand: probably the most bizarre case is Swiss psychologist Jung's masterwork “Psychology and Alchemy,” translated into Croatian in 1986, and retranslated, in late 1990s, into Serbian not from the original German language German, but from Croatian. A translation and “translation's translation” differ on virtually every page—orthographically, lexically, syntactically and semantically.

See also
* Dialects in Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia Category:Slavic languages Category:Language comparison

Article title
Don't move this page to "Differences in Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian" or something similar. There are reasons why it is named as it is. User:Nikola Smolenski Nikola 06:16, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC) : Presumably, the reason is that Nikola feels they are all dialects of Serbo-Croatian language. This page is linked from there as a supplementary explanation. Personally I agree with the saying "language is a dialect with an army and a navy" but this page is useful no matter what the title is. --User:Shallot Shallot 13:01, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC) :: Close. Anyway, I think that this is an excellent NPOV term as it is true both if they are dialects or not. User:Nikola Smolenski Nikola 08:50, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC) ::: A better place for this would really be Differences between standard Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian (to alphabetize them). The only thing that we can accurately say about the official languages is that in Croatia it's Croatian, etc. Dictionaries and grammars are not enforced by law - they may try to be prescriptive, but ultimately, they must follow usage. I think this page should describe the differences between the subsets of BCMSxyz dialects that are standardly used by media and writers in/of individual countries/ethnicities. User:Zocky Zocky 03:43, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Igor's comment
This whole page is a joke, I am not surprised that Shallot wrote most of it... oh brother... I'll deal with it later. --User:Igor Igor 10:30, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC) : Yeah, you "deal with it", just one more reason to propose to the administration that they prevent further vandalism. --User:Shallot Shallot 16:42, 29 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Motivation
At the risk of opening a can of worms, would it be worth making a comment on the political motivation of differentiation? : Note that it's already covered in pages Serbo-Croatian language and Croatian language. --User:Shallot Shallot 16:42, 29 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Jakob's comments
According to this page, i adopted from Croatian to pretty good Bosnian during just three months: I started saying ''organizovati'' and to use da-constructions, but realizovati still sounds somewhat alien. Another thing about vocabulary: in my understanding which i built up speaking with people mostly in Osijek and Sarajevo and reading Croatian, some Serbian and little Bosnian, liciti means ''to look like'' predominantly in a transferred sense (to lici na njega) while I thought the word sliciti as in ''to be similar'' to be universal (slici na brata). And I know ''slikati'' or more precisely ''crtati'' rather thant ''liciti'' for ''to paint''. : "Liciti", if I understand well, doesn't mean to paint artistically but to paint a wall. "Molovati", if you wish (which is an old Slavic word, by the way, though most people doesn't know that). User:Nikola Smolenski Nikola ::So you mean kreciti? Anyway, I would have thought ''molovati'' to be a Germanism, which my hr-nj dictionary confirms. But than again, there are many German words that are actually Slavic with most people not knowing (Grenze-granica, Ranzen-ranac,...)User:Jakob Stevo Jakob Stevo :::Yes, but not only with krec, but with any kind of color. Yes, molovati comes from German "mallen" which in turn comes from Slavic "smolovati" (or was it "smoliti"?) (to cover with raisin). User:Nikola Smolenski Nikola 14:14, 24 May 2004 (UTC) ::: I believe "ličiti" is synonymous with "krečiti" and "molovati" in normal use, yes. Colloquially, it's not often used (in favour of "krečiti", "farbati", "piturati"... , and the form oličiti is also not very popular, but it is used in the common word "ličilac", for the handyman who does such work. (look up soboslikar i ličilac in the .hr phone directory for a sample) --User:Shallot Shallot 14:22, 24 May 2004 (UTC) And I think it can be said that words like dzada or sargarepa are regionalisms and not actually used by everybody who consideres his/her language as Serbian. And the difference stol/sto is actually more morphology than vocabulary. : That's only partially correct. The words are regionalisms but at least some of them have entered standard language, with slightly changed meaning or entrenched in phrases. As for "sargarepa", it is almost universally used in Serbian. User:Nikola Smolenski Nikola More general to morphology: There are certainly missing forms like porez/poreza, minuta/minut, osnova/osnov. As is the h/v stuff (suh/suv, kuhati/kuvati), and the endings -telj/-lac. User:Jakob Stevo Jakob Stevo 16:38, 22 May 2004 (UTC) : Add an example or two of them. User:Nikola Smolenski Nikola 11:04, 24 May 2004 (UTC) So I will User:Jakob Stevo Jakob Stevo 13:15, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

verb sub-phrases
''All three languages can form verb sub-phrases in two different ways, with use of infinitive, or with use of the helper word "da" (which could be translated to English as "to"; note that "da" also means "yes").'' ''The sentence "I want to do that" could be translated with any of'' ''"Hoću to da uradim"''
"Hoću to uraditi"''
''Or "Will you do that?", which can be translated with both'' ''"Da li ćeš to da uradiš?"''
''"Da li ćeš to uraditi?"''
''In most of Serbia and Bosnia, the first method is preferred in the vernacular, but in written language, the second method is frequently used to mean "will", while the first is used to mean "want to".'' I think this part needs rewriting, for several factual errors and/or misguidances to an English-speaker. First, I'd rather call "da" a ''conjunction'' in this case rather than "helper word".
Second, the construct is always "da"+present tense.
: Not neccesarily. It is possible to say, for example, "Voleo bih da sam to uradio". And you yourself give example in future tense below! User:Nikola Smolenski Nikola ::Even so ''da'' is used with the present tense (''sam'')--User:Jakob Stevo Jakob Stevo 09:57, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC) :: We're discussing relative clauses in future and perfect tense -- "Voleo bih da sam to uradio" is the same in Croatian. User:Duja Duja 12:33, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC) Third, I'd rather translate "da" in this context as "that" rather than "to": I'd translate "Hoću to da uradim" to English ''literally'' as "I want that I do that".
: Don't agree. There's no second I in the original. "I want that I do that" would be literall translation of "Hocu da ja to uradim", which is quite different. User:Nikola Smolenski Nikola :: There is not even a first ''I''. The language doesn't require it as "hocu" and "uradim" already mean "I will" and "I do". I agree that "I want that I do that" is the best translation if we want to keep it as literal as possible without doing to much violence to English grammar.--User:Jakob Stevo Jakob Stevo 09:57, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC) ::: OK, you're both right. I overlooked that "I want that '''I''' do that" is an (almost?) valid English sentence as Nikola pointed out, which does not carry the same meaning. OTOH, I meant it to be read as Stevo did. A better (less ambiguous) example is needed.User:Duja Duja 12:33, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC) Fourth, since the Serbian distinction of "ću da uradim" vs. "ću uraditi" is similar to English will vs. shall so the meaning is not obvious. I'd replace the above "will" with "shall" (''I shall do it'' is AFAIK still perfectly fine English, although ''shall'' disappears esp. from Am.En., but it better disambiguates the translation). : I'm not so certain. Shall would proably be translated as "Trebao bih to da uradim/Trebao bih to uraditi". Perhaps it would be the best to avoid weak will/shall distinction and use some other verb insted (for example "voleo bih to da uradim" - I would like to that). User:Nikola Smolenski Nikola 09:06, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC) ::I hope you are not messing up ''shall'' and ''should''? In my understanding, ''I shall do that'' means something along the lines of "I will (surely) do that (alghough it might not be easy)". So the difference between ''uradit cu to'' and ''hocu to uraditi'' is actually pretty close to will/shall.--User:Jakob Stevo Jakob Stevo 09:57, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC) ::: "Shall" is still alive & well in Br.E. 1st.pers.sg. It simply expresses a future without speaker's relationship to the action in question. Thus, e.g. "I shall work" is just a future tense, while "I will work" carries the meaning that I'm also 'willing' to work. This distinction is lost in Am.E. and it loses ground in Br.E. as well. Note, however, that colloquial Serbian tends to use da+present in future tense without component of "willingness" (in the same manner as will/shall):
Kad ti budes dosao, ja ću da spavam.
Kad ti budes dosao, ja ću spavati.
Both sentences express plain future fact, and you can frequently hear the first variant in colloquial speech (although it's not considered "the best" Serbian in linguistic circles).User:Duja Duja 12:33, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC) ::: I see slight difference between them: the second one could only mean "when you come I will already be sleeping" while the first one could mean either that or "when you come I will then go to sleep". ::: Anyway, I am not messing "shall" and "should" but noticing that a lot of people are, and that it would probably be better to choose something as unambigious as possible. User:Nikola Smolenski Nikola 05:38, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC) Then, few words could also be spared on related construction of future tense :
"Uradit ću to" (Croatian)
"Uradiću to" (Serbian)
"Ja ću to uraditi" (Both, "I shall do that")
"Ja ću to da uradim" (Serbian, "I will/want to do that". Probably occurs in colloquial Cr. although I'd guess It would be treated as "Serbism" in official circles)
Comments? [Sorry, forgot the sig, newbie. User:Duja Duja 12:33, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)] : About that last part -- "Ja ću to da uradim" is rather rarely used in any sort of Croatian. "Ja ću da to napravim" would be more like it (though not more common than "Ja ću to napravit'" which is closer to the norm). --User:Shallot Shallot 16:12, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC) ::Ja cu to da uradim is probably an extreme case, but there are examples where, as it says in the article, vernacular would basically use "da"-constructions, while written Croatian requires infinitive. The thing that people probably really would see as a serbism about that sentence maybe isn't even so much the "da" itself, but rather the place where it is ("to da" instead of "da to"). Comment of a non-native speaker, tell me if I'm wrong. User:Jakob Stevo Jakob Stevo 16:30, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC) ::: Like I said, many "da" constructs are used in the vernacular, but at the same time it's not like non-"da" forms aren't used either. (Notice that I was replying to the comment above and not to the article text.) Also, many of those "da" forms that aren't spoken in .hr aren't spoken simply because they don't sound in the spirit of the language spoken in Croatia, hence the people don't feel a pressing need to prefer them over other forms. It's getting a tad frustrating to have to keep elaborating that not everything is result of (conspiracy|language police|self-censorship), sorry about my tone... --User:Shallot Shallot 18:04, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC) ::::I was not meaning to imply any conspiracy, maybe I should have sad "not in the spirit of the language" instead of "serbism". But then, even in Austria which has not gone through a war and considers her language as German alright, there are a lot of constructions people would see as "Germany-isms" or "Teutonism", knowing that they are normal in .de but not in .at - and it doesn't have to do with "self-censorship" or "conspiracy", it's just we don't say it (or if you want "they don't sound in the spirit of the language") - but simply knowing that they are alright in Germany they are conceived as coming from there. So, saying "serbism", I wanted to say "a feature that is not common, but known to common in Serbian" rather than "a feature that has to be extinguished as it's anti-Croatian". --User:Jakob Stevo Jakob Stevo 23:47, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC) ::::Or an other example using two languages generally accepted to be distinct from each other: Dutch say "frisisme" to constructions that are untypical to Dutch (don't sound in the spirit of the language), and derrived by direct translation from Frisian (as produced by bilingual speakers in the north of the country) - they even have a wikipedia-page on that: [http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/frisisme] --User:Jakob Stevo Jakob Stevo 09:46, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC) :::: I quite like Shallot's comment. We're not writing complete comparative grammar though, but just want to provide an illustration. Of course many "da" constructs are required in Croatian as well -- just, it rather uses infinitive forms where appropriate. A (stretched) example:
Hoću da kažem da želim da idem. (Serbian)
Hoću reći da želim ići. (Croatian)
Of course, "Hoću reći željeti ići" is impossible.User:Duja Duja 12:33, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC) I've edited the paragraph in question, trying to take into account your recent remarks. Feel free to comment/praise/vomit on it. User:Duja Duja 10:42, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Reflaction
I don't think Reflaction is a word in English. From the context, I think "transformation over time" is what is meant. What is the correct word here? User:Key45 Key45 21:09, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC) : "Reflex" appears to be the common term, at least in particular case of letter jat (Google for "reflex jat"); I saw it in few other similar contexts. There's currently no entry for Reflex (phonology) so I removed the link as well.--User:Duja Duja 14:35, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Vocab notes
Serbain - 'zejtin' for oil, seems to be semetic, from the semetic word for 'olives', present in arabic dialect, hebrew, aramiac. --80.178.230.241

But: Passport ?
In the Vocabulary section, why is ''Passport - pasoš, putovnica, pasoš'' in the '''But''' section? What makes it different from the "spinach", "factory", or "rice" examples? - User:Key45 Key45 22:31, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC) - still wondering User:Key45 Key45 21:04, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) : I think the point that was being made was that although all use ''put'' as the main form, only one of them later uses that as the root word for a related word. : Granted, similar analogies can be made for the word factory (all use ''stvoriti'' as the verb "to produce", but only Croatian uses the same root in ''tvornica''), although not for the vegetables I don't think. : I figure something should be adjusted there, just not sure what. --User:Joy Joy [shallot] 08:59, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Question on existance of Bosnian and Croatian as languages
First: "Bosnian language" is nonexestent! It's either spoken Ijekavian Serbian, or Croatian. For the language to exist, you need literature, books writen on that language, and you need some difference to the existing language. You can erase everything considering croatian language, because I see they are compleetly changing their language structure, and words, and nobody has time to update the page every time they decide to change something. Now there is also question about existance of the new language. Where is the literature writen on croatian. After the point they say the language strucure is reached the stabile point, and they rewrite most of the books on their languagem, only then it deserves to be called a language ----- What about those distinct languages, such as North and South American native languages, which do not have literature, books written on the language (apart from Anthropological ones)? I agree that all 3 languages are remarkably similar (and I was raised to think that they are the same language). Difference is something like that between French French (fr_FR), Belgian French (fr_BE) and Canadian French (fr_CA), or English (en_GB, en_IE, en_US). - ''3 June 2005 14:36 GMT''

feminine/masculine
I recently reverted [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... d=11438847 a semi-anonymous change] that conflicts with my experiences - can someone else confirm or deny it? --User:Joy Joy [shallot] 14:26, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Usage of First (prva) and Second (druga) Palatelizacija
I am not sure how correct example of ''studentkinja'' and ''studentica''? It seems to me that the usage of the '''Prva''' (first) '''Palatelizacija''' was not applied to the word ''studentkinja''. '''''Prva Palatelizacija''''' is the change of consonants '''k''', '''g''', '''h''' to '''c''', '''z''', '''s''', which is the gramatical rule I was tought by my old high school teacher in Bosnia and Herzegovina, who herself was from Serbia (born and educated there). Therefore, rather than ''studentkinja'' being the Serbian word, I think it is gramatically incorrect word (although I might be wrong). - ''3 June 2005 14:45 GMT'' :And what palat'''a'''lization has to do with it at all? The Serbian suffix in this case is ''-kinja'' and it's normally appended to masculine ''student'', producing normal ''studentkinja''. ''-Kinja'' is productive in Croatian too, just not in this example --cf. ''crnkinja'', ''kineskinja''. User:Duja Duja 14:40, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[Golan]

Eto, Belgija nema pojma. I eto, dize optuznice protiv predsjednika neke drzave tek tako, bez argumenata.

Da. Svako moze dici optuznicu, ali ne i dobiti slucaj. To nista ne govori

Pa neka Saron dode u Belgiju ako je toliko siguran u sebe.

istog momenta bi se nasao iza resetaka.

Saron je glavni krivac za masakar u Sabri i Satili. Dokazano. kraj price.

Dokazao si samo ti sebi.

[Sarafcina]

Vidim ponestalo vam jevreja, a znam samo gdje ima mudzahedina, nema Jevreja - ustvari nema nikoga osim vas. Zakljucak je jednostavan - pogledaj u ogledalo.

Ja ne vidjeh da neko ima nesto protiv Jevreja.
To sto neko napada aparthejd i zlocine u Izraelu, ne znaci da negira holokaust ili da mrzi Jevreje.

O Sharonu,
pa ako misli da je nevin (a i Delic misli da je nevin), neka ide na sud. Ne kontam zasto se pravila diplomatska ofanziva i pritisak na Belgiju, ako je sve cisto i ok.

[digger]

Jedno je jasno: gdje se god ratovalo, tu je i pravda bila ranjena i ostavljena da krvari. Sila boga ne moli.

Bezveze argumentovano, to sto sila boga ne moli ne mora znaciti da mi a pogotovo Palestinci trebaju aminovati ono sto im je oteto i svu nepravdu koja im je nacinjena.

Nije argumenat ali je cinjenica. Koja je to nacija isla u odbranbeni rat, zauzela neciju teritoriju, pa onda sve dala mirno natrag bez ikakvih garancija da se tako nesto nece ponoviti? Daj mi samo jedan primjer.

Cinjenica:
Izrael je napadnut slijedeci dan nakon proglasenja nezavisnosti. Uspjeli su ne samo da se odbrane nego da predju u kontranapad. U tom periodu, dosta obicnih palestinaca je izbjeglo sa ratista i dio njihove zemlje je bio okupiran od Izraela. Zatim novi napadi na Izrael.... ista prica, a Izrael se opet siri. Pitam te: dokle neko moze da napada nezavisnu drzavu a ovi treba da su kasnije "fer" jer tako neko u Sarajevu misli? Volio bih da vidim kako bi ti svario scenario da sutra Srbija hoce na silu da okupira priznatu drzavu od drugih, BiH. Kako bi ti onda rezonovao? Bojim se da nisi bas naivan kao sto se pravis.

Mozda je danasnju situaciju najbolje opisao jedan jevrejski doseljenik sa okupiranih podrucja. On doslovice kaze "nemam je nikakvih argumenata, ovdje se radi o 1-0 utakmici, ili mi ili oni, nema tu kompromisa i dijaloga".

Ti kao da ne ucis nista cak i sa ovog foruma. Za prvu recenicu, i dok je trajao rat u BH, ne bi li se isto moglo pripisati jednom ugrozenom muslimanu ili jednom ugrozenom Srbinu? I tu bi bilo... nema kompromisa i dijaloga."
Ili zamisli da ides na posao ili u skolu autobusom ili tramvajem i da svaki dan ocekujes da ce neko uci u isti i dici sve u zrak. Kako bi se TI osjecao?

Naravno dodao je kako im je Bog obecao tu zemlju i da ga ne zanima priroda sukoba i njegovi korijeni. Sa takvim ispranim mozgovima ne treba ni ocekivati neki normalan dialog.

Takvih ispranih mozgova ima i na nasem forumu. Stvaranje "Bosnjacke" drzave po serijatu. Nisi primjetio?

Naravno svjestan je da Palestinci nisu indijanci koji mogu biti izbrisani iz svjetske istorije i da ce njegova djeca da rastu sa istim strahom u kojem on danas zivi, kad treba preci iz svog naselja do priznatog dijela Izraela.
Palestincima skidam kapu jer i pored takve sile im ne pada na pamet da odustanu od svoje zemlje. Rijetko koji narod u istoriji je pokazao takvu volju da brani ono sto im pripada.

Palestinci i Izraelci konacno nalaze da je moguce imati dijalog. Pedeset godina nepovjernja se ne moze samo tako izbrisati. Treba imati strpljenja.

Kosovski Albanci su svasta istrpili od 1912 i izgurali ali ipak se ne moze porediti sa ovim.

To ti ne znas. Ti to samo zamisljas da znas kako je bilo kosovarcima ili kako je bilo Izraelcima odnosno Palestincima.

Mossad Uzzviseni vas sve nadgleda i zapisuje! Pazite sta pricate da ne bi bilo po p*...
Nije mi namjera da se mjesam administratorima u posao ali ako vam ovakvi komentari ne zasluzuju ban onda ne znam kakvi su vasi kriteriji.
ps. meni ne bi trebao Mosad da tebi dam po picki

Ovo zadnje niije moje i ne znam zasto si ovo stavio kao tvoj komentar meni. Da pojacas svoje argumente kojih nemas?

[Nesferatu]

Malo vam je mudzahedinski forum, a ipak predstavljate 'multietnicku' BIH. Nestala vam je druga strana ove diskusije

Prilicno si lak na teskim rijecima.

Onda su mudzahedini svi oni koji iz cijelog svijeta dolaze na Bliski istok da se usprotive otvorenom apartheidu od strane Izraela. Onda su mudzahedini i i oni Izraelci koji se protive istom tom apartheidu. Onda je mudzahedin i onaj Majkl Moore...... ma ima ih milijarda.

Vidim ponestalo vam jevreja, a znam samo gdje ima mudzahedina, nema Jevreja - ustvari nema nikoga osim vas. Zakljucak je jednostavan - pogledaj u ogledalo.

Kako te samo nije stid, napisati ovaku blatantnu laz. Nestalo je Jevreja jer su otisli konvojom UN-a, na pocetku rata, i ostavili "mudzehedinima" da brane svetu zemlju Sarajevsku zvanu Jevrejsko groblje. To vam nije bilo interesatno braniti, onako gologuzim, polugladnim i nenaoruzanim ko sto su svi drugi branioci multi-kulti tad bili. Samo, svakog stignu njegovih aferim. Eto ti sad, matica Izrael pa je odbrani. Mogu samo ti reci, da si iz malih se u velika uvalio. Polako samo. Nije bog macka da grebe.

[Golan]

Vidim ponestalo vam jevreja, a znam samo gdje ima mudzahedina, nema Jevreja - ustvari nema nikoga osim vas. Zakljucak je jednostavan - pogledaj u ogledalo.

Ja ne vidjeh da neko ima nesto protiv Jevreja.
To sto neko napada aparthejd i zlocine u Izraelu, ne znaci da negira holokaust ili da mrzi Jevreje.

O Sharonu,
pa ako misli da je nevin (a i Delic misli da je nevin), neka ide na sud. Ne kontam zasto se pravila diplomatska ofanziva i pritisak na Belgiju, ako je sve cisto i ok.

Ja vidim da su samo jednostrane slike na temi, a pokusaj kinga da prikaze drugu stranu je 'medijski' izgleda ugrozen. Mozda cu i ja letiti ako sta kazem iz jevrejske perspektive.
Postoji zakon u izraelu koji ne dozvoljava izrucenje njenoh gradjana a kamoli postovanih predsjednika, i cijeli svijet to postuje, pa je sve uredno i zakonski. Nisam cuo za ikakav pritisak.

[Golan]

Prilicno si lak na teskim rijecima.

Onda su mudzahedini svi oni koji iz cijelog svijeta dolaze na Bliski istok da se usprotive otvorenom apartheidu od strane Izraela. Onda su mudzahedini i i oni Izraelci koji se protive istom tom apartheidu. Onda je mudzahedin i onaj Majkl Moore...... ma ima ih milijarda.

Vidim ponestalo vam jevreja, a znam samo gdje ima mudzahedina, nema Jevreja - ustvari nema nikoga osim vas. Zakljucak je jednostavan - pogledaj u ogledalo.

Kako te samo nije stid, napisati ovaku blatantnu laz. Nestalo je Jevreja jer su otisli konvojom UN-a, na pocetku rata, i ostavili "mudzehedinima" da brane svetu zemlju Sarajevsku zvanu Jevrejsko groblje. To vam nije bilo interesatno braniti, onako gologuzim, polugladnim i nenaoruzanim ko sto su svi drugi branioci multi-kulti tad bili. Samo, svakog stignu njegovih aferim. Eto ti sad, matica Izrael pa je odbrani. Mogu samo ti reci, da si iz malih se u velika uvalio. Polako samo. Nije bog macka da grebe.

Mislio sam na forum gospodjo/gospodine dragi.

[savjest]

Dokazao si samo ti sebi.

Ko gubi ima pravo da se ljuti.
neka saron kroci na belgijsko tlo ako je nevin?! Belgija je demokratska drzav, imace sva prava...kao i ostali zatvorenici

[List]

Digger, previdio si činjenicu da je UN Jevrejima dodijelio zemlju na kojoj Jevreji nisu činili većinu (uvezeni su). Logično je da su se Palestinci pobunili.

A to što ti to nazivaš započinjanjem rata (ili bolje rečeno agresijom) govori o tebi.

Tvoje je pravo da to tvrdiš. Ali nemoj misliti da ću to prihvatiti kao činjenicu.

[Nesferatu]

Sta se ti bolan spremas. Jade jadni. Jel' to nemas nista pametnije u zivotu, za sta ces da se spremis? De, ugasi taj tv i kompjuter, izdaji medju ljude, sa njima malo popricaj.

[Golan]

Digger, previdio si činjenicu da je UN Jevrejima dodijelio zemlju na kojoj Jevreji nisu činili većinu (uvezeni su). Logično je da su se Palestinci pobunili.

A to što ti to nazivaš započinjanjem rata (ili bolje rečeno agresije) govori o tebi.

Tvoje je pravo da to tvrdiš. Ali nemoj misliti da ću to prihvatiti kao činjenicu.

UN nije dodijelio, nego odobrio vec dodijeljenu zemlju. Nisu uvezeni, citam danas kuran i nadjem ih na toj zemlji skoro na samom pocetku. 'sinovi izraela' ?

[Sarafcina]

Vidim ponestalo vam jevreja, a znam samo gdje ima mudzahedina, nema Jevreja - ustvari nema nikoga osim vas. Zakljucak je jednostavan - pogledaj u ogledalo.

Ja ne vidjeh da neko ima nesto protiv Jevreja.
To sto neko napada aparthejd i zlocine u Izraelu, ne znaci da negira holokaust ili da mrzi Jevreje.

O Sharonu,
pa ako misli da je nevin (a i Delic misli da je nevin), neka ide na sud. Ne kontam zasto se pravila diplomatska ofanziva i pritisak na Belgiju, ako je sve cisto i ok.

Ja vidim da su samo jednostrane slike na temi, a pokusaj kinga da prikaze drugu stranu je 'medijski' izgleda ugrozen. Mozda cu i ja letiti ako sta kazem iz jevrejske perspektive.
Postoji zakon u izraelu koji ne dozvoljava izrucenje njenoh gradjana a kamoli postovanih predsjednika, i cijeli svijet to postuje, pa je sve uredno i zakonski. Nisam cuo za ikakav pritisak.

a Izrael ne dozvoljava da se protiv Sharona dize bilo kakav postupak jer je zakon uhauhauhaha
i sve fino legalno
samo mi ne ide u glavu koji me klinac onda neko pravi budalom
Hmm ako izjednacavas jevrejsku i izraelsku perspektivu
onda povedi racuna da si ti sam implicirao (ako hoces i izazvao) napade na Jevreje. Ja jos nisam vidio tu implikaciju od nekoga drugog .
Postovani predsjednik koji pocini zlocin je zlocinac, kada mu se to dokaze . A ako bjezi od suda ...

Ako ocekujes od mene da prikazujem izraelsku perspektivu
bojim se da cemo zavrsiti sa rasistickim citatima nekih visokopozicioniranih Izraelcana.

[savjest]

Ti kao da ne ucis nista cak i sa ovog foruma. Za prvu recenicu, i dok je trajao rat u BH, ne bi li se isto moglo pripisati jednom ugrozenom muslimanu ili jednom ugrozenom Srbinu? I tu bi bilo... nema kompromisa i dijaloga."
Ili zamisli da ides na posao ili u skolu autobusom ili tramvajem i da svaki dan ocekujes da ce neko uci u isti i dici sve u zrak. Kako bi se TI osjecao?

Gdje lli si ti bio tokom agresije i cime si se bavio. U Sarajevu je bilo na hiljade srba i svakopdnevno sam ih mogao vidati na raznoraznim pozicijma pa pa nikom nista.


Da je bilo pravde izrael bi bio napravljen u NJemackoj ili Francuskoj ili Poljskoj ... A ovako su evroljani sutnuli jehudije drugima ... snalazite se...

[savjest]

UN nije dodijelio, nego odobrio vec dodijeljenu zemlju. Nisu uvezeni, citam danas kuran i nadjem ih na toj zemlji skoro na samom pocetku. 'sinovi izraela' ?

Lupas...

izrael je priznat a da uopste nije imao defirane granice(nema ih ni danas). Kakva je to logika? Priznati neku "drzavu" bez jasnih granica?

Mudra politika jer je to kasnije dalo osnove za sirenje teritorije.

[Golan]

Ja ne vidjeh da neko ima nesto protiv Jevreja.
To sto neko napada aparthejd i zlocine u Izraelu, ne znaci da negira holokaust ili da mrzi Jevreje.

O Sharonu,
pa ako misli da je nevin (a i Delic misli da je nevin), neka ide na sud. Ne kontam zasto se pravila diplomatska ofanziva i pritisak na Belgiju, ako je sve cisto i ok.

Ja vidim da su samo jednostrane slike na temi, a pokusaj kinga da prikaze drugu stranu je 'medijski' izgleda ugrozen. Mozda cu i ja letiti ako sta kazem iz jevrejske perspektive.
Postoji zakon u izraelu koji ne dozvoljava izrucenje njenoh gradjana a kamoli postovanih predsjednika, i cijeli svijet to postuje, pa je sve uredno i zakonski. Nisam cuo za ikakav pritisak.

a Izrael ne dozvoljava da se protiv Sharona dize bilo kakav postupak jer je zakon uhauhauhaha
i sve fino legalno
samo mi ne ide u glavu koji me klinac onda neko pravi budalom
Hmm ako izjednacavas jevrejsku i izraelsku perspektivu
onda povedi racuna da si ti sam implicirao (ako hoces i izazvao) napade na Jevreje. Ja jos nisam vidio tu implikaciju od nekoga drugog .
Postovani predsjednik koji pocini zlocin je zlocinac, kada mu se to dokaze . A ako bjezi od suda ...

Ako ocekujes od mene da prikazujem izraelsku perspektivu
bojim se da cemo zavrsiti sa rasistickim citatima nekih visokopozicioniranih Izraelcana.

Mozda zato sto si rasista?
Nema sta izrael da dozvoljava ili ne. Neka svako dize optuznice, to je svacije pravo. I gospodin Sharon putuje sirom svijeta, pa i Belgijom. A zakon o izrucenju drzavljana je zakon primjenjen u pola zemalja svijeta. Ne uzimaj balkan primjer za sve.

[Golan]

UN nije dodijelio, nego odobrio vec dodijeljenu zemlju. Nisu uvezeni, citam danas kuran i nadjem ih na toj zemlji skoro na samom pocetku. 'sinovi izraela' ?

Lupas...

izrael je priznat a da uopste nije imao defirane granice(nema ih ni danas). Kakva je to logika? Priznati neku "drzavu" bez jasnih granica?

Mudra politika jer je to kasnije dalo osnove za sirenje teritorije.

Nisi ti u toku sa granicama, zato i pricas tako. UN sadrzi mapu medjunarodno priznatih granica jos od stvaranja drzave izrael.